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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:19:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are damn sure getting a shit ton of publicity. It better be something cool or they will never hear the end of it. Their credibility will fly out the window if otherwise. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:19:15 PM EDT
[#2]
New wrinkle:
http://www.recoilweb.com/has-franklin-armory-found-an-atf-loophole-132912.html Franklin Armory gets an A+ in marketing (for now). With one press release, they have blogs, forums, and social media buzzing with speculation about how its new product, the Reformation, is approved by the ATF. Here’s the simple answer: it’s not.
We reached out to Franklin Armory for comment and were told via phone and email that they will not be releasing any more information on the Reformation until SHOT Show. Multiple sources within the ATF have confirmed that there has been no approval for this product as a non-NFA firearm. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:20:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
New wrinkle: http://www.recoilweb.com/has-franklin-armory-found-an-atf-loophole-132912.html Franklin Armory gets an A+ in marketing (for now). With one press release, they have blogs, forums, and social media buzzing with speculation about how its new product, the Reformation, is approved by the ATF. Here’s the simple answer: it’s not.
We reached out to Franklin Armory for comment and were told via phone and email that they will not be releasing any more information on the Reformation until SHOT Show. Multiple sources within the ATF have confirmed that there has been no approval for this product as a non-NFA firearm. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:23:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote History
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:25:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Been observing this thread since page one. Didn't feel like I could add anything new to all the conjecture. However, I can maybe help rule out one of the main theories. Per TFB...
"I’ve talked to my contact at Franklin. It is not trigger based. You can use standard or binary triggers." The above was posted by one of their staff members in the comments section about 6 hours ago. I'll post a screenshot below for reference. So, IIRC, the following has thus far been "confirmed" by Franklin Armory. -Not a smooth bore -Not trigger related -Not a rifle -Not a shotgun -OK to use a conventional stock -11.5" Barrel So...what viable theories remain that can meet those above conditions? 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:26:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So...what viable theories remain that can meet those above conditions? |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:30:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been observing this thread since page one. Didn't feel like I could add anything new to all the conjecture. However, I can maybe help rule out one of the main theories. Per TFB... "I’ve talked to my contact at Franklin. It is not trigger based. You can use standard or binary triggers." The above was posted by one of their staff members in the comments section about 6 hours ago. I'll post a screenshot below for reference. So, IIRC, the following has thus far been "confirmed" by Franklin Armory. -Not a smooth bore -Not trigger related -Not a rifle -Not a shotgun -OK to use a conventional stock -11.5" Barrel So...what viable theories remain that can meet those above conditions? http://i.cubeupload.com/InZa8Q.jpeg 
Assuming the BATFE ultimately approves the firearm, of course. 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:34:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryFA better awe the world or they'll go down in history as the biggest cock tease ever.
That's quite the gamble. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:34:19 PM EDT
[#9]
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter.
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:41:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:48:11 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has to be something with the barrel or it has something to skirt around the definition of what is a rifle. Doesn't matter how long the overall gun is, if it has a stock and sub-16" barrel it's an SBR. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg ETA no, wait. Are you sure? Ow, my head.
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:52:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JMHO but solution to a problem that no longer exist! Really don't see the need or reason for SBR with the huge variety of braces now available and ATF currently saying shouldering is OK. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psa_family-418108.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psalower-418110.JPG |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:55:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote History
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:56:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Didn’t read anything other than the OP, but who the fuck cares now that everyone and their brother already has an AR pistol or three with Sig brace?
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Posted: 1/12/2018 10:57:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Firing more than one projectile would make it not a rifle.
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:02:19 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Firing more than one projectile would make it not a rifle. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:06:01 PM EDT
[#17]
It's airsoft
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:07:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's airsoft |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:08:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're right. It would be a machine gun. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:15:03 PM EDT
[#20]
In on 19
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:17:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I knew that. My brain is so cluttered from reading this thread I can't think straight. ETA no, wait. Are you sure? Ow, my head. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg ETA no, wait. Are you sure? Ow, my head. (7) The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or rede- signed and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. (8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than six- teen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:22:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FA better awe the world or they'll go down in history as the biggest cock tease ever. That's quite the gamble. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:23:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has to be something with the barrel or it has something to skirt around the definition of what is a rifle. Doesn't matter how long the overall gun is, if it has a stock and sub-16" barrel it's an SBR. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg Removing muzzle devices/stocks and switching buffer tubes before measuring, using soft primer ammunition to induce slam fires, filing on FCG's to induce hammer follow and doubles, etc. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:28:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can already see the memes if this thing turns out to be nothing, or stupid. At least 87x the beating Springfield took for "grip zone." |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:30:36 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would have to be pinned in the long config. ATF is notorious for playing fast and loose with their measurements and testing "standards." Removing muzzle devices/stocks and switching buffer tubes before measuring, using soft primer ammunition to induce slam fires, filing on FCG's to induce hammer follow and doubles, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg Removing muzzle devices/stocks and switching buffer tubes before measuring, using soft primer ammunition to induce slam fires, filing on FCG's to induce hammer follow and doubles, etc. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:34:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Is it possible that Franklin simply pinned the barrel to the receiver so that the “barrel” is greater than 16” and the OAL is over 26”? If the receiver when fused to the barrel becomes part of the barrel for length, it would seem that this would be a workaround.
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:35:59 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it possible that Franklin simply pinned the barrel to the receiver so that the “barrel” is greater than 16” and the OAL is over 26”? If the receiver when fused to the barrel becomes part of the barrel for length, it would seem that this would be a workaround. 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:38:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It will be epic. At least 87x the beating Springfield took for "grip zone." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can already see the memes if this thing turns out to be nothing, or stupid. At least 87x the beating Springfield took for "grip zone." |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:43:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's true but ATF ethics aside, the way of measuring OAL is with the stock fully extended or unfolded. In theory the same standard should apply to muzzle devices for barrel length. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg Removing muzzle devices/stocks and switching buffer tubes before measuring, using soft primer ammunition to induce slam fires, filing on FCG's to induce hammer follow and doubles, etc. It all depends on which asshole at the tech branch is doing the measurements. Measuring with the stock extended makes sense to us, because that is how the weapon is used; but the ATF's goal is to get the length under 26" without modifying it, so they can get a conviction. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:45:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it possible that Franklin simply pinned the barrel to the receiver so that the "barrel" is greater than 16" and the OAL is over 26"? If the receiver when fused to the barrel becomes part of the barrel for length, it would seem that this would be a workaround. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:49:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And yet, the ATF always collapses the stocks before measuring OAL, to get just a few invhes closer to a conviction. If a muzzle device is not pinned, sometimes they remove it. It all depends on which asshole at the tech branch is doing the measurements. Measuring with the stock extended makes sense to us, because that is how the weapon is used; but the ATF's goal is to get the length under 26" without modifying it, so they can get a conviction. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg Removing muzzle devices/stocks and switching buffer tubes before measuring, using soft primer ammunition to induce slam fires, filing on FCG's to induce hammer follow and doubles, etc. It all depends on which asshole at the tech branch is doing the measurements. Measuring with the stock extended makes sense to us, because that is how the weapon is used; but the ATF's goal is to get the length under 26" without modifying it, so they can get a conviction. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:05:07 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet, the ATF always collapses the stocks before measuring OAL. And they always measure barrel length with any muzzle device removed unless it's permanently attached. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:07:07 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FA better awe the world or they'll go down in history as the biggest cock tease ever. That's quite the gamble. Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's quite the gamble. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:14:42 AM EDT
[#34]
.
It's only a little over a week to wait for the grand announcement on this product. Which hopefuly reveals a "firearm" that will be available in a standard AR rifle caliber. And that announcement needs to include a copy of the ATF approval letter telling us exactly why this is NFA compliant as a "firearm." 
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:15:05 AM EDT
[#35]
I love how every page of is thread is essentially the same, with people suggesting the same three or four suggestions over and over and over again.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:16:34 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Been observing this thread since page one. Didn't feel like I could add anything new to all the conjecture. However, I can maybe help rule out one of the main theories. Per TFB...
"I’ve talked to my contact at Franklin. It is not trigger based. You can use standard or binary triggers." The above was posted by one of their staff members in the comments section about 6 hours ago. I'll post a screenshot below for reference. So, IIRC, the following has thus far been "confirmed" by Franklin Armory. -Not a smooth bore -Not trigger related -Not a rifle -Not a shotgun -OK to use a conventional stock -11.5" Barrel So...what viable theories remain that can meet those above conditions? http://i.cubeupload.com/InZa8Q.jpeg 
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:26:52 AM EDT
[#37]
On another note, I now cannot unsee the stumpy penis logo...
God Bless ARFCOM |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:32:22 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Muzzle loading. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:32:23 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love how every page of is thread is essentially the same, with people suggesting the same three or four suggestions over and over and over again. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:35:42 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would still be NFA. Antique firearms exemption doesn't apply to muzzle loaders that use firearm receivers. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:36:07 AM EDT
[#41]
Prob already been said but my vote is a sensor that replaces the trigger. Wiggle your finger inside the guard and it fires. No trigger press or pull.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:47:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Square (or “squared”) bore with twist...
Could that impart twist to a bullet to stabilize? Picture a twisted wrought iron bar. ETA: I’ll be... Look up “Puckle Gun”. ETA: Smooth bore for maybe a couple inches past chamber, transitioning into a square bore with maybe some amount of twist? Possible? |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:48:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're right. It would be a machine gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Firing more than one projectile would make it not a rifle. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:54:51 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love how every page of is thread is essentially the same, with people suggesting the same three or four suggestions over and over and over again. 
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:55:07 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it is a "rifle" and has a barrel under 16" it's an SBR regardless of anything else about it. The only way I can see this being possible is for them to have somehow designed this to not be a rifle. It's the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" part that I don't know how they are getting around. You can make AR pistols with braces, shotguns with pistols grips and have short barrels. But as soon as you put a stock on it and it has a barrel under 16" I can't see a way it's not an SBR. (7) The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or rede- signed and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. (8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than six- teen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg ETA no, wait. Are you sure? Ow, my head. (7) The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or rede- signed and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. (8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than six- teen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Or The barrel is not rifled but still imparts spin of the bullet. Maybe a barrel that is bored not straight, but bored in a conical or twisting fashion to pull spin on the bullet without rifling |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 12:59:41 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it is a "rifle" and has a barrel under 16" it's an SBR regardless of anything else about it. The only way I can see this being possible is for them to have somehow designed this to not be a rifle. It's the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" part that I don't know how they are getting around. You can make AR pistols with braces, shotguns with pistols grips and have short barrels. But as soon as you put a stock on it and it has a barrel under 16" I can't see a way it's not an SBR. (7) The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or rede- signed and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. (8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than six- teen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
An extendable buffer tube has to be it, but it's a big assumption FA is making that it will be approved. I wouldn't assume anything regarding the ATF, or any government agency for that matter. I don't think this is what they did, but someone should try it because I think it could work. Sliding adjustable flash hider that sleeves around the barrel. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/326493/11-418452.jpg ETA no, wait. Are you sure? Ow, my head. (7) The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or rede- signed and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. (8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than six- teen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Also isn’t that how we make pistol ar’s. They are never made into rifles. So your not modifying a a rifle. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 1:07:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So by the definition of a SBR what if it was made from a pistol first? Then it wouldn't qualify as a rifle. Also isn't that how we make pistol ar's. They are never made into rifles. So your not modifying a a rifle. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 1:10:05 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has a stock, intended to be fired from the shoulder. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 1:13:45 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Braces are fired from the shoulder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It has a stock, intended to be fired from the shoulder. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 1:14:17 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryWhy the hell do people like this attorney use stupid comments like "loophole"? It's either legal, or it's not.
Next, the Recoil attorney will be speaking about the "gun show loophole". 
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