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Posted: 1/13/2018 3:12:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote History
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Posted: 1/13/2018 3:44:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Personally I just love that a huge market is sprouting up around making non-NFA products like this that push the boundaries.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 4:22:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally I just love that a huge market is sprouting up around making non-NFA products like this that push the boundaries. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 4:27:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Regardless of what it ends up being, I expect to be underwhelmed. Owning both SBRs and pistols with braces, it would have to be something pretty special to get me to buy it. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 4:29:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally I just love that a huge market is sprouting up around making non-NFA products like this that push the boundaries. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 4:29:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure I agree. The backlash could be hideous. I would rather pick apart the NFA with bits of legislation like the HPA untill it is a gutless POS. This tactic is going to bite us in the ass. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 4:32:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure I agree. The backlash could be hideous. I would rather pick apart the NFA with bits of legislation like the HPA untill it is a gutless POS. This tactic is going to bite us in the ass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Personally I just love that a huge market is sprouting up around making non-NFA products like this that push the boundaries. 
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Posted: 1/13/2018 4:56:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's been a year since the HPA was introduced. Yeah, we're winning by following your preferred tactic. Stop putting words in my mouth. This is all end-run bullshit to get and get around the NFA. EXACTLY like the anti-gun crowd doing end-runs around the 2nd Amendment to restrict your rights. The bullshit needs to stop. Fix it permanently. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 5:47:41 PM EDT
[#9]
I believe it's time for someone to chime in:
"Didn't read the thread, but the answer is smoothbore." |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 5:55:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Bros, it's totally a smoothbore that fires when you push the trigger forward with the stock double-telescoped to 26" while upside-down and underwater.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:00:27 PM EDT
[#11]
I've got it!!!!!! The telescoping stock is the trigger mechanism!!!!!! Prize please!!!!!!!!
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:00:46 PM EDT
[#12]
For people who don't want to wade through the thread...So far this is the best summary of what is known:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been observing this thread since page one. Didn't feel like I could add anything new to all the conjecture. However, I can maybe help rule out one of the main theories. Per TFB... "I’ve talked to my contact at Franklin. It is not trigger based. You can use standard or binary triggers." The above was posted by one of their staff members in the comments section about 6 hours ago. I'll post a screenshot below for reference. So, IIRC, the following has thus far been "confirmed" by Franklin Armory. -Not a smooth bore -Not trigger related -Not a rifle -Not a shotgun -OK to use a conventional stock -11.5" Barrel So...what viable theories remain that can meet those above conditions? http://i.cubeupload.com/InZa8Q.jpeg |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:00:50 PM EDT
[#13]
what if the totally made this up to have the gun forums figure out all the ways to make it.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:02:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Checking in on Page 21 to see if there is an answer yet.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:08:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Maybe it has "not intended to fire fixed metallic cartridges" engraved on the lower.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:24:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what if the totally made this up to have the gun forums figure out all the ways to make it. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:26:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Always always worried about the braces being recalled law! STFU! Enjoy
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At what point did I say we were "winning?" We sure as hell aren't going to be "winning" when I am pulling off the pistol braces after the ATF changes it's fucking mind. Again. Stop putting words in my mouth. This is all end-run bullshit to get and get around the NFA. EXACTLY like the anti-gun crowd doing end-runs around the 2nd Amendment to restrict your rights. The bullshit needs to stop. Fix it permanently. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:33:35 PM EDT
[#18]
I kind of want one so hoping the prices are affordable, but I'm sure the price will be north of $1k. But here's to hoping. Maybe PSA will find a way and bring the cost affordable. Ok, I'll go be poor some place else.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:35:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Checking in on Page 21 to see if there is an answer yet. http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/042/619/4ea.jpg 
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:41:26 PM EDT
[#20]
I’m going with one of two (possible) options -
1. Adjustable length permanently attached muzzle device 2. Uh, odds are they are probably basic white, cotton, underpants. But I sort of think well maybe they're silk panties, maybe it's a thong. Maybe it's something really cool that I don't even know about. What if... What if?!?! |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 6:44:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bros, it's totally a smoothbore that fires when you push the trigger forward with the stock double-telescoped to 26" while upside-down and underwater. 
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Posted: 1/13/2018 7:17:42 PM EDT
[#22]
I think I solved it. They invented a new caliber. And intend to get it SAAMI certified.
The new AR is chambered and engraved for this new caliber, meaning it uses plain AR triggers and stocks. For example, something like a crimped cartridge that fires a charge of small shot (like rat shot) or a cartridge that uses duplex-loaded projectiles (like project savlo's m198). A gun DESIGNED to shoot either of these cartridges that is also ENGRAVED for their use on the receiver and barrel would render the firearm unfit for classification as a rifle. Because under the law, and it's very clearly outlined, rifles fire single projectiles and shotguns have smooth bores.... such a described firearm would be neither. The new cartridge would have to be different enough that it will not chamber it in a .223/5.56mm gun, but you could also make it close enough that you could get a 5.56mm cartridge to chamber in teh new caliber... think of the 38 special vs 357 magnum relationship. Maybe you just got to lengthen the neck a little bit and call it the 5.55x45mm or 5.55 Duplex 18 USC §921(A)(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
... 18 USC §921(A)(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 7:24:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
I think I solved it. They invented a new caliber. And intend to get it SAAMI certified. The new AR is chambered and engraved for this new caliber, meaning it uses plain AR triggers and stocks. For example, something like a crimped cartridge that fires a charge of small shot (like rat shot) or a cartridge that uses duplex-loaded projectiles (like project savlo's m198). A gun DESIGNED to shoot either of these cartridges that is also ENGRAVED for their use on the receiver and barrel would render the firearm unfit for classification as a rifle. Because under the law, and it's very clearly outlined, rifles fire single projectiles and shotguns have smooth bores.... such a described firearm would be neither. The new cartridge would have to be different enough that it will not chamber it in a .223/5.56mm gun, but you could also make it close enough that you could get a 5.56mm cartridge to chamber in teh new caliber... think of the 38 special vs 357 magnum relationship. Maybe you just got to lengthen the neck a little bit and call it the 5.56x47mm |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 7:25:42 PM EDT
[#24]
nvm - mis-read as the same smoothbore vs rifled theory
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Posted: 1/13/2018 7:32:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt that's it but if it was I would imagine that .444 marlin or 45/70 would work in it also... I wouldn't mind a magazine fed 45/70 sbr for HD  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have we done this one? ATF definitions in shorthand: shotgun: shoulder fired and uses shotgun shell and smooth bore and fires (shot or single projectile) for each single pull rifle: shoulder fired and single projectile through rifled bore for each single pull sbr: rifle < 16" or made from a rifle with oal < 26 or barrel(s) < 16 sbs: shotgun < 18" or made from a shotgun with oal < 26" or barrel(s) < 18" aow: capable of being concealed on the person or (smooth bore pistol and shot shell) or combo shotgun / rifle 12" - 18". Does not include rifled pistol Not a smooth bore = not a shotgun Fires shot shells = not a rifle Not a rifle = not an SBR Not a shotgun = not an SBS 26" = not an AOW It's a .410. Possibly capable of but not designed to  fire some flavor of .45?I wouldn't mind a magazine fed 45/70 sbr for HD |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 7:35:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. Smoothbore = shotgun Rifled = Rifle If you had a barrel that didn't meet either of those definitions (oval bore?) that would be one work-around of several possible work-arounds. but you couldnt just use the new ammo because the AR was designed to shoot a single projectile through a rifled bore. so something would have to be different to make it not designed to shoot a single projectile through a rifled bore. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 7:49:50 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the keyword is "single projectile through a rifled bore". so if you have a bullet, cut in half, epoxied together that broke apart when the explosive-ness happens, technically you would have two projectiles, and not a single projectile, making it not a rifle by definition. but you couldnt just use the new ammo because the AR was designed to shoot a single projectile through a rifled bore. so something would have to be different to make it not designed to shoot a single projectile through a rifled bore. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 8:04:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Always always worried about the braces being recalled law! STFU! Enjoy Quote HistoryQuoted:
Always always worried about the braces being recalled law! STFU! Enjoy Quoted:
At what point did I say we were "winning?" We sure as hell aren't going to be "winning" when I am pulling off the pistol braces after the ATF changes it's fucking mind. Again. Stop putting words in my mouth. This is all end-run bullshit to get and get around the NFA. EXACTLY like the anti-gun crowd doing end-runs around the 2nd Amendment to restrict your rights. The bullshit needs to stop. Fix it permanently. Do you literally have to be retarded not to understand that this is how you educate your enemy? All you have to do is look at what happened in Commiefornia. Their lawmakers were ignorant, but not stupid. They ignorantly outlawed "assault weapons" on the basis of cosmetic features...stocks, grips, flash hiders, etc. So, people did end runs around that ignorance, and made "California-compliant" rifles. Essentially teaching their enemies what they REALLY wanted to outlaw. So they pass more laws, and now you have mag limits, bullet buttons, and other idiocy. Soon, they will be legislated into oblivion. We need to CHANGE THE LAWS, not find exploitable errors in language in them that someone can then fix. We aren't going to have the ability to change the laws forever, eventually the other side always gets their turn. Instead of lauding some company and spending your hard earned cash on some range toy they made up to squeeze sideways past a nearly 100 year old law, you should be spending it making sure Representatives who will actually fix these issues on a (hopefully) permanent basis get voted in and the cowards who won't get voted out. Making items that skirt the laws (which I am also guilty of) does nothing to help firearm owners. All it does it point out to others where they need to slam shut the doors. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 8:06:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Checking in on Page 21 to see if there is an answer yet. http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/042/619/4ea.jpg
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Posted: 1/13/2018 8:09:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what if the totally made this up to have the gun forums figure out all the ways to make it. 
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Posted: 1/13/2018 8:09:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what if the totally made this up to have the gun forums figure out all the ways to make it. Edit: BEAT by my like-minded brother above. 
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Posted: 1/13/2018 8:10:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whoa Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
what if the totally made this up to have the gun forums figure out all the ways to make it.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 8:19:04 PM EDT
[#33]
would be funny if its an airsoft gun.....lol
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Posted: 1/13/2018 8:49:54 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 1/13/2018 9:59:22 PM EDT
[#35]
following
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Posted: 1/13/2018 10:04:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I’m going with one of two (possible) options - 1. Adjustable length permanently attached muzzle device ! Quoted:
10.5 inch rifled barrel 5.5 inch permanently attached telescoping muzzle device = 16 inches in the extended configuration. If a buttstock can be collasped/folded but still bring a gun to a OAL greater than 26" why couidn't a barrel? The flashhider "retracts for compact storage" and is "intended" to be fired from an extended position. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 10:08:23 PM EDT
[#37]
It could be a real short smooth barrel, then a threaded longer barrel added to unrifled stub, if not perm attached to short part its a accessory/muzzle device and legal
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Posted: 1/13/2018 10:11:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's brilliant and the most plausible, IMO If a buttstock can be collasped/folded but still bring a gun to a OAL greater than 26" why couidn't a barrel? The flashhider "retracts for compact storage" and is "intended" to be fired from an extended position. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm going with one of two (possible) options - 1. Adjustable length permanently attached muzzle device ! Quoted:
10.5 inch rifled barrel 5.5 inch permanently attached telescoping muzzle device = 16 inches in the extended configuration. If a buttstock can be collasped/folded but still bring a gun to a OAL greater than 26" why couidn't a barrel? The flashhider "retracts for compact storage" and is "intended" to be fired from an extended position. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 10:13:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think this is it because they said it's not legally a "rifle", a muzzle device wouldn't change the gun's status as a rifle/firearm. However I really think an extending flash hider that sleeves over the barrel and remains captive is something worth looking into. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm going with one of two (possible) options - 1. Adjustable length permanently attached muzzle device ! Quoted:
10.5 inch rifled barrel 5.5 inch permanently attached telescoping muzzle device = 16 inches in the extended configuration. If a buttstock can be collasped/folded but still bring a gun to a OAL greater than 26" why couidn't a barrel? The flashhider "retracts for compact storage" and is "intended" to be fired from an extended position. ETA: Not as a “Thumb in the eye” but more like “Be like water...”. |
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Posted: 1/13/2018 10:33:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Permanently pinned flash hider made out of plexi glass to reach 16”. It looks like an SBR in pictures.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 10:51:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Bore is neither smooth nor rifled... maybe internally golfball dimpled?
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Posted: 1/13/2018 11:40:11 PM EDT
[#42]
My guess? The ATF changed it's mind on something like they did with braces.
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Posted: 1/13/2018 11:44:44 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My guess? The ATF changed it's mind on something like they did with braces. |
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Posted: 1/14/2018 12:48:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Maybe Mr. Ross and his creation Mr. Bowman had it right all along...
Time to re-educate government on the constitution: You answer to us, not the other way around. |
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Posted: 1/14/2018 12:51:40 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
would be funny if its an airsoft gun.....lol |
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Posted: 1/14/2018 1:18:00 AM EDT
[#46]
This could always be the making of an epic April fools joke.
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Posted: 1/14/2018 1:19:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This could always be the making of an epic April fools joke. |
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Posted: 1/14/2018 1:27:31 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt that's it but if it was I would imagine that .444 marlin or 45/70 would work in it also... I wouldn't mind a magazine fed 45/70 sbr for HD Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have we done this one? ATF definitions in shorthand: shotgun: shoulder fired and uses shotgun shell and smooth bore and fires (shot or single projectile) for each single pull rifle: shoulder fired and single projectile through rifled bore for each single pull sbr: rifle < 16" or made from a rifle with oal < 26 or barrel(s) < 16 sbs: shotgun < 18" or made from a shotgun with oal < 26" or barrel(s) < 18" aow: capable of being concealed on the person or (smooth bore pistol and shot shell) or combo shotgun / rifle 12" - 18". Does not include rifled pistol Not a smooth bore = not a shotgun Fires shot shells = not a rifle Not a rifle = not an SBR Not a shotgun = not an SBS 26" = not an AOW It's a .410. Possibly capable of but not designed to fire some flavor of .45?I wouldn't mind a magazine fed 45/70 sbr for HD Make it happen, please. 
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Posted: 1/14/2018 10:48:08 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@WhiskersTheCat Make it happen, please. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have we done this one? ATF definitions in shorthand: shotgun: shoulder fired and uses shotgun shell and smooth bore and fires (shot or single projectile) for each single pull rifle: shoulder fired and single projectile through rifled bore for each single pull sbr: rifle < 16" or made from a rifle with oal < 26 or barrel(s) < 16 sbs: shotgun < 18" or made from a shotgun with oal < 26" or barrel(s) < 18" aow: capable of being concealed on the person or (smooth bore pistol and shot shell) or combo shotgun / rifle 12" - 18". Does not include rifled pistol Not a smooth bore = not a shotgun Fires shot shells = not a rifle Not a rifle = not an SBR Not a shotgun = not an SBS 26" = not an AOW It's a .410. Possibly capable of but not designed to fire some flavor of .45?I wouldn't mind a magazine fed 45/70 sbr for HD Make it happen, please. 
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Posted: 1/14/2018 10:54:38 AM EDT
[#50]
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