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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:03:49 AM EDT
I use to be really interested in Caseless ammunition technology several years ago and started some development in my own designs including patenting a AR bolt carrier group for Caseless style ammunition. Since then I got into building functional historical launchers such as the fliergerfaust and M202 Flash which has taken up all my time and funding.
  Now that I have completed my M202 project, I was looking to take a short break from destructive devices and try my hand at a personal build of a simplified semi auto G11 using nitrocellulose based Caseless ammunition . I was going to try reverse engineer the propellant formula from the Voere Vec 91 Ammunition as I think that is likely the best performing Nitrocellulose based caseless ammunition. I owned a couple of the rifles a few years ago and they were great shooters. Obviously cook offs are a clear danger so this would definitely be shot very cautiously and slowly after a load is proven safe in remote testing  Im going to borrow inspiration from the VBR CAR for the simplified action while trying to make the exterior as accurate to the original as possible.  I’m still early in my research phase, I have located a number good patents to better understand the manufacturing of Caseless ammunition but I’d like to seek the knowledge of folks that have experience in working on Caseless ammunition projects. If anyone knows contacts that the have worked on maybe the G11 project or the Voere Vec 91, I’d appreciate the help I’ll update here as I am able to progress through the project . Luckily I still have some prototype bolts designed to seal the chamber with caseless ammunition from a few years ago. I’ll just chamber a barrel blank to work with the bolts to test load data before I assembling the final rifle and ammunition.    I think we found an amazing local source of information on caseless ammunition but the post is archived so I don’t know who the poster is. Can anyone help identify Please ? Arfcom thread 
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:04:40 AM EDT
[#1]
In.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:08:05 AM EDT
[#2]
Some people on here amaze me. OP is one of those people.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:10:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Tag! Looking forward to the adventure.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:10:28 AM EDT
[#4]
Time for something new and improved!
This is the future! Where are the batteries and shit! You should name it “project teddy bear”. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:12:45 AM EDT
[#5]
ok let me say thats pretty fucking cool.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:16:14 AM EDT
[#6]
The FLASH is done?
Also, neat! |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:17:49 AM EDT
[#7]
have i seen your fliergerfaust youtube videos?
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:24:29 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FLASH is done? Also, neat!  Firing The M202 Flash Rocket Launcher from Commando All wrapped up now |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:25:02 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: have i seen your fliergerfaust youtube videos? Those would likely be fine lol |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:28:52 AM EDT
[#10]
Ni.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:31:29 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:36:31 AM EDT
[#12]
So in, I remember the articles back in the 80’s on the G11.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:39:48 AM EDT
[#13]
OP, I can offer no help, but I’m damn sure interested in your project. I wish you the best of luck with it.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:40:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Wow. Quality content in GD.
Great work OP, this is some neat stuff. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:41:36 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So in, I remember the articles back in the 80's on the G11. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:43:00 AM EDT
[#16]
Two issues:
1) ignition? Primer or electronic. 2) caseless -metallic cartridges sealed the breech from gas escaping. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:44:26 AM EDT
[#17]
I suggest contacting Vic Tuff. He was able to give me more information on the G11 than anyone else - including a prize of my cartridge collection. A dummy round from the development program.
 ETA: You should be able to contact him via The Armourer's Bench. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:45:25 AM EDT
[#18]
Got to handle a G11 at Crane back in the late '90s. The director of weapons development for the SEALs wouldn't let me fire it no matter how much I begged.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:45:58 AM EDT
[#19]
I'm of the understanding the G11 suffered from significant overheating.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:47:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those would likely be fine lol Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: have i seen your fliergerfaust youtube videos? Those would likely be fine lol yup i was already subbed small internet world |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:51:59 AM EDT
[#21]
There is an old retired guy who figured out the secret to primerless electric ignition of nitrocellulose.
He made a caseless rifle that metered a dose of powder with a .22 lead ball. Circuit used a ccfl HV module. Will dig up the links. https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ignition/eignition.html https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/plink_king/plink_king.html |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:52:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Neat. If you go electric priming, I have some experence there.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 12:57:47 AM EDT
[#23]
That is incredibly cool!
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Posted: 5/10/2023 1:01:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Awesome.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 1:10:08 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm of the understanding the G11 suffered from significant overheating. It's biggest issue was complexity. A watch mechanism probably has less moving parts, which is why OP is going for a simplified version. Here's hoping he can come up with a better system than HK did. 
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Posted: 5/10/2023 1:34:17 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's biggest issue was complexity. A watch mechanism probably has less moving parts, which is why OP is going for a simplified version. Here's hoping he can come up with a better system than HK did. https://i.redd.it/g2giktx3sma21.jpg Yeah a lot of added complexity comes from the hyper fire burst feature, given it’s semi auto only ill be scrapping a lot of added mechanisms. I’ll have to spend a few weeks/months drawing it up and printing plastic parts to test the mechanism I come up with before the costly process of having parts machined and/or printed in steel. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 1:36:44 AM EDT
[#27]
Lots of G11 info here, including some of its pitfalls:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/ACR-Rifle-Trial-Results-vs-M16A2-found-the-results-/118-759630/ Go the ACR PDF and scroll to the end, it talks about the G11 and its ammo (filling receiver with explosive gas was one of its downsides) |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 1:36:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neat. If you go electric priming, I have some experence there. The Voere ammunition is electronically primed and borrowing that concept may help reduce complexity of sealing the chamber. I’d definitely love to hear what insights you have to offer  Detailed view of the Voere VEC 91 (Caseless Ammunition) |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 2:47:30 AM EDT
[#29]
I did some digging into the man behind the 5.7 UCC ammunition, he was Hubert Usel from Austria, who has been working on caseless ammunition for decades. He has a number of patents for n the topic. I believe he passed away in 2010s. In 2011 A man by the name Peter Keller took over the reigns and tried to license out the UCC (Usel Caseless Cartridge) concept.
Took some screenshots of their website on the way back machine before it disappeared around 2013 It appears his son was very knowledgeable of his work and would likely the best person to speak to get help making ammunition If we have any Austrian friends on Arfcom, if you know either gentleman, I’d definitely like to speak with them. I checked on LinkedIn , Facebook, obituaries and unfortunately didn’t find any leads. - Reinhard Schieferle - Peter Keller   
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Posted: 5/10/2023 3:38:40 AM EDT
[#30]
There is an Austrian member here. Jozsi is the nick of the member. Pretty sure that’s him.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 4:04:44 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is an Austrian member here. Jozsi is the nick of the member. Pretty sure that’s him. Hungarian, not Austrian. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 4:22:51 AM EDT
[#32]
Will 10mm armor piercing, explosive tipped caseless be an option?
Tagged for Interesting thread. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 4:30:06 AM EDT
[#33]
what are the benefits of caseless ammo?
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:15:43 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what are the benefits of caseless ammo? Weight savings is usually the goal. Unfortunately, there are a lot more cons than pros for caseless ammunition. It’s been implemented well for a lot of other applications besides rifles like grenade launchers, artillery, etc though. I always wanted to try and recreate the volcanic repeater with rocket ball ammunition from 1848. I always thought that rifle must’ve been super fun to shoot. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:42:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some people on here amaze me. OP is one of those people. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:56:58 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what are the benefits of caseless ammo? The G11 pursued caseless for 2 reasons: 1. In order to achieve the 2400rpm 'hyper burst', HK believed caseless was necessary as it would remove the need for an ejection cycle, speeding up the weapons ROF. 2. Caseless provided a 50-60% reduction in ammo weight, allowing a soldier to carry a lot more ammo. Point 2 was undermined by the G11's extremely long 45rd single stack magazines, which look to be about 16-18" long. As a result it had a bizarre plan for the G11 to carry 2-3x mags on the gun (total of 3) and then the soldier would reload the mags (in the midst of a WW3 Red Horde) with 15rd plastic box stripper clips. Note the huge magazine, and plastic 15rd 'charger' for loading mags in combat.  The G11 is super cool. But the more one looks into it, the more it's clear West Germany should have just adopted the Steyr AUG with 42rd mags in the 80's. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:02:54 AM EDT
[#37]
According to Portable Gorilla who was part of testing the NGSW submissions and who I believe no longer posts here, the Textron CT ammunition technology was shockingly mature and reliable. Maybe see if you can find some of their parents.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:54:41 AM EDT
[#38]
I’ve got nothing to add other than…subscribed.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:13:39 AM EDT
[#39]
Damn. 3 minutes into the day, and OP already claimed it as the winner. Kudos.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:35:33 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:39:03 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The G11 pursued caseless for 2 reasons: 1. In order to achieve the 2400rpm 'hyper burst', HK believed caseless was necessary as it would remove the need for an ejection cycle, speeding up the weapons ROF. 2. Caseless provided a 50-60% reduction in ammo weight, allowing a soldier to carry a lot more ammo. Point 2 was undermined by the G11's extremely long 45rd single stack magazines, which look to be about 16-18" long. As a result it had a bizarre plan for the G11 to carry 2-3x mags on the gun (total of 3) and then the soldier would reload the mags (in the midst of a WW3 Red Horde) with 15rd plastic box stripper clips. https://www.hkpro.com/attachments/g11compare-jpg.276124/ Note the huge magazine, and plastic 15rd 'charger' for loading mags in combat. https://shootingdiceblog.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/hk-g11-1.jpg The G11 is super cool. But the more one looks into it, the more it's clear West Germany should have just adopted the Steyr AUG with 42rd mags in the 80's. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: what are the benefits of caseless ammo? The G11 pursued caseless for 2 reasons: 1. In order to achieve the 2400rpm 'hyper burst', HK believed caseless was necessary as it would remove the need for an ejection cycle, speeding up the weapons ROF. 2. Caseless provided a 50-60% reduction in ammo weight, allowing a soldier to carry a lot more ammo. Point 2 was undermined by the G11's extremely long 45rd single stack magazines, which look to be about 16-18" long. As a result it had a bizarre plan for the G11 to carry 2-3x mags on the gun (total of 3) and then the soldier would reload the mags (in the midst of a WW3 Red Horde) with 15rd plastic box stripper clips. https://www.hkpro.com/attachments/g11compare-jpg.276124/ Note the huge magazine, and plastic 15rd 'charger' for loading mags in combat. https://shootingdiceblog.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/hk-g11-1.jpg The G11 is super cool. But the more one looks into it, the more it's clear West Germany should have just adopted the Steyr AUG with 42rd mags in the 80's. I guess with boxy caseless rounds that rotary drum mags aren't an option? Not sure why they have to be squared anyways... I'd like to see a caseless design that runs off a volatile gas like Butane or something that gets aerosoled into the chamber. The propane electric ignited potato guns prove that concept, but butane can be carried about without a pressure vessel and you could probably put in an electric heating system to preheat the liquid before injection. Alternately, shut off the heater once the gun hits a certain temperature and use the butane to quench the firing chamber, like in an ICE... |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:46:59 AM EDT
[#42]
OP would be fun to hang out with.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 8:17:12 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Some people on here amaze me. OP is one of those people. Agreed and subbed. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 8:44:00 AM EDT
[#44]
 Attached FileI tinkered with an in-line mag PCC with a locked cam breech a while back, never got past a CAD concept. Essentially a P90 sized package with 30+ rounds in a service caliber with an integral suppressor and locked breech. Maybe someday, just like all the other ideas I've had over the years
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Posted: 5/10/2023 2:26:41 PM EDT
[#45]
OST for awesome updates!
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Posted: 5/10/2023 2:31:50 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 5/10/2023 2:50:34 PM EDT
[#47]
OST. OP is my new hero.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 2:53:00 PM EDT
[#48]
In.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:12:58 PM EDT
[#49]
Sweet. In!
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:13:00 PM EDT
[#50]
I don't know jack about squat, but these guys have access to one in a collection so maybe could take measurements or photographs you might need?
 TAB Episode 8: Introduction to the HK G11  Heckler & Koch G11 Disassembly & How It Works |
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