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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:24:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:30:32 PM EDT
[#2]
This is fascinating stuff, but damn, I just don't have time to read and learn about a new technology right now. Subscribing for later date.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 8:17:23 PM EDT
[#3]
OST
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Posted: 5/10/2023 8:23:59 PM EDT
[#4]
With 3d printing this should get interesting
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Posted: 5/10/2023 8:25:19 PM EDT
[#5]
I loved the idea of the G11.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 8:26:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Tag.
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Posted: 5/11/2023 10:21:31 AM EDT
[#7]
The only careless ammo I’ve ever seen in the flesh is the Daisy Heddon VL .22 Caseless Ammunition. You can still find it for sale sometimes.
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Posted: 5/11/2023 10:25:23 AM EDT
[#8]
G11 was a weapon choice in Twilight 2000. You must successfully complete this project.
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Posted: 5/11/2023 10:30:23 AM EDT
[#9]
Delta Force games first turned me onto the G11 years ago. I've wanted one since then
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:04:07 PM EDT
[#10]
I remember being in the army (in Denmark) in the late 80s, and we fully expected that caseless rifles like the G11 would be perfected and issued within a decade, since the German Army was testing them.
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:31:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember being in the army (in Denmark) in the late 80s, and we fully expected that caseless rifles like the G11 would be perfected and issued within a decade, since the German Army was testing them. I think it was you who said that the danish army had a habit of either buying the most expensive or cheapest equipment on the market. It would make sense if the G-11 had gone into service that the Danes would be the second country to adopt it. As for this project... it’s ambitious. I do hope it works out. If you can 3D print ammunition in addition to... other things then it becomes even harder to outlaw firearms. I wonder how much it simplifies the design to not have to worry about replicating the 3 shot hyper-burst system? As others have said in this thread the G-11 lock-work as it is known is more like a watch mechanism than a gun. A damn complicated watch at that. More Omega Speedmaster than Vostok. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:36:00 PM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:40:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember being in the army (in Denmark) in the late 80s, and we fully expected that caseless rifles like the G11 would be perfected and issued within a decade, since the German Army was testing them. Anyone who has ever pulled the trigger on a G3 should laugh at that. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:40:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: I use to be really interested in Caseless ammunition technology several years ago and started some development in my own designs including patenting a AR bolt carrier group for Caseless style ammunition. Since then I got into building functional historical launchers such as the fliergerfaust and M202 Flash which has taken up all my time and funding. https://i.imgur.com/Z1YAMRl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/l3AW3PY.jpg Now that I have completed my M202 project, I was looking to take a short break from destructive devices and try my hand at a personal build of a simplified semi auto G11 using nitrocellulose based Caseless ammunition . I was going to try reverse engineer the propellant formula from the Voere Vec 91 Ammunition as I think that is likely the best performing Nitrocellulose based caseless ammunition. I owned a couple of the rifles a few years ago and they were great shooters. Obviously cook offs are a clear danger so this would definitely be shot very cautiously and slowly after a load is proven safe in remote testing https://i.imgur.com/XpSMv3f.jpg Im going to borrow inspiration from the VBR CAR for the simplified action while trying to make the exterior as accurate to the original as possible. https://i.imgur.com/KwkwmzN.jpg I’m still early in my research phase, I have located a number good patents to better understand the manufacturing of Caseless ammunition but I’d like to seek the knowledge of folks that have experience in working on Caseless ammunition projects. If anyone knows contacts that the have worked on maybe the G11 project or the Voere Vec 91, I’d appreciate the help I’ll update here as I am able to progress through the project . Luckily I still have some prototype bolts designed to seal the chamber with caseless ammunition from a few years ago. I’ll just chamber a barrel blank to work with the bolts to test load data before I assembling the final rifle and ammunition. https://i.imgur.com/xFXBSLA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/RC9kNj7.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4gSmIRi.jpg This. This is AWESOME |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:46:11 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:57:51 PM EDT
[#16]
Looking forward to your build OP.
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Posted: 5/11/2023 3:02:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone who has ever pulled the trigger on a G3 should laugh at that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I remember being in the army (in Denmark) in the late 80s, and we fully expected that caseless rifles like the G11 would be perfected and issued within a decade, since the German Army was testing them. Anyone who has ever pulled the trigger on a G3 should laugh at that. We were issued G3s at the time. 
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Posted: 5/11/2023 3:07:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We were issued G3s at the time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I remember being in the army (in Denmark) in the late 80s, and we fully expected that caseless rifles like the G11 would be perfected and issued within a decade, since the German Army was testing them. Anyone who has ever pulled the trigger on a G3 should laugh at that. We were issued G3s at the time.  |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 3:58:35 PM EDT
[#19]
Here is to OP, making GD great again
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Posted: 5/11/2023 4:23:23 PM EDT
[#20]
OP, any plans on continuing the High Velocity Rocket project after this very interesting project?
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Posted: 5/11/2023 4:27:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Tag
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Posted: 5/11/2023 5:04:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two issues: 1) ignition? Primer or electronic. This may be an issue. About 15 years ago I designed a semi auto rifle with electronic primers. ATF said no. Too easy to make it a full auto. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 9:27:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP, any plans on continuing the High Velocity Rocket project after this very interesting project? I’m working on that in conjunction to this project however I’m going to do scaled down versions to prove the concept. Still haven’t got my form 1 approved yet to build the launcher |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 9:31:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This may be an issue. About 15 years ago I designed a semi auto rifle with electronic primers. ATF said no. Too easy to make it a full auto. Interesting, if that’s the case then I’ll stick to combustible primers |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 3:37:11 AM EDT
[#26]
This is gonna be fucking cool.
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Posted: 5/12/2023 8:15:18 AM EDT
[#27]
This thread could be epic
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:28:17 AM EDT
[#28]
 Heckler & Koch G11 Disassembly & How It Works Matt Moss over on the Armourers Bench YouTube channel got his hands on one 4 years ago or so. Might be someone to contact. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:30:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Same Matt Moss wrote a Jan 2022 article about the G11 in Popular Mechanics.
“The best way to learn about what happened to the G11 and why it was so forward-thinking is to take one apart. There are less than 20 or so G11s left in the world, but we got our hands on one to figure out what makes it tick—and why it was eventually consigned to the scrap heap of history.” https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a26811332/g11-rifle/ |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:37:56 AM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:43:04 AM EDT
[#31]
OP's soon to be gun cabinet:
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Posted: 5/12/2023 12:10:46 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 5/12/2023 12:12:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP's soon to be gun cabinet: https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.xucajxFgrtm9jmTrCZcvmwHaHL?pid=ImgDet&rs=1 Slightly bigger bore  
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Posted: 5/12/2023 12:16:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OP's soon to be gun cabinet: https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.xucajxFgrtm9jmTrCZcvmwHaHL?pid=ImgDet&rs=1 Slightly bigger bore https://i.imgur.com/6ogIFg7.jpg |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 12:18:28 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 5/12/2023 12:19:16 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 5/13/2023 11:16:46 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote History I’m guessing this photo of members of the 197th Infantry Brigade with G11 K1 rifles was taken at Aberdeen Proving Grounds (APG) Maryland, sometime after March of 1989. This is when the G11s were delivered from Germany. Possibly Phase III of the program which began in August 1989 at APG. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 5:51:23 PM EDT
[#38]
I think we found an amazing local source of information on caseless ammunition but the post is archived so I don’t know the poster is. Can anyone help Please ?
Arfcom thread 
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Posted: 5/16/2023 6:08:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryI got to fam fire the L85 while in Saudi Arabia for Desert Shield. I know a lot of people hate that rifle and bad mouth it, but the 2 I got to fire worked great with zero issues. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 8:06:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Cool thread…
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Posted: 5/17/2023 1:23:41 AM EDT
[#41]
 Added the firing pin system using my existing parts already machined 
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Posted: 5/17/2023 12:54:26 PM EDT
[#42]
I’m hoping this isn’t the gentleman I’m looking to speak with regarding working for Hercules Inc . The post was from 6 years ago so it might be.
Obituary first job was at Hercules Corporation where he worked on such projects as the second stage rocket booster for Voyager, the Minuteman Missile program, and the caseless bullets for the F-16. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 8:02:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Found some good snippets of information of the Frankford Arsenal Caseless manufacturing process
-The molded charge consisted of IMR 4895 granular propellant molded in a configuration similar to the 7.62 mm brass case, using nitrocellulose (pyroxylin) dissolved in ether-alcohol as the binder. - Effort was then directed toward use of a more suitable binder which would yield molded charges having satisfactory physical strength and be completely consumed in the test action. A solution of 3 percent, by weight, nitrocellulose (pyroxylin) in a 1:1 ether-alcohol mixture was found to produce molded samples of high physical strength which could be easily machined. - An unprimed brass stub was inserted in the bottom of a 7. 62 mm heading die and approximately 0.2 ml of the binder was placed within it. Approximately 4 grains of the given granular propellant were added, followed by three drops of binder. This process was continued until the desired height was reached. At this time the material was compressed at 300 psi for 30 seconds, permitting the excess binder to be expelled. After examination of the neck region for consolidation, the material was pressed out at minimum pressure and dried for 24 hours at room temperature. The resulting product was a hard, cylindrical rod with flat ends. This was then machined to duplicate the configuration of the standard 7.62 mm brass case. |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 8:46:16 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I got to fam fire the L85 while in Saudi Arabia for Desert Shield. I know a lot of people hate that rifle and bad mouth it, but the 2 I got to fire worked great with zero issues. The Gen1 ones werent all bad, but they wore out fast. Plus training or lack therof. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:12:03 AM EDT
[#45]
  Need to figure out how to make rectangle springs for the magazine. I think I’ll have enough room to put a modified AR-15 FCG behind the firing pin . I’m going to try repurpose as many AR Components as possible. Example: The secondary firing pin is actually a turned down AR firing pin Will spend more time this week on designing |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 6:53:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Great contributions over the years @JonathanwFL log out and log back in.
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Posted: 5/23/2023 8:59:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Very much appreciated mate !
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Posted: 5/25/2023 1:06:41 AM EDT
[#48]
  Little more progress |
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Posted: 5/25/2023 2:36:59 AM EDT
[#49]
Forgive my ignorance, but what would be the feasibility of utilizing a more modern ammunition? Would there be any way to utilize the Textron caseless ammunition that they put forth for the NGSW trials?
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Posted: 5/25/2023 3:07:46 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Forgive my ignorance, but what would be the feasibility of utilizing a more modern ammunition? Would there be any way to utilize the Textron caseless ammunition that they put forth for the NGSW trials? They made both plastic telescoping ammunition and Caseless HTIP ammunition Their Caseless ammunition based on the G11 ammo would work but the main ingredient is high explosive so I can’t get access to that with an FEL. Their plastic case ammunition needs to extract the case and that would be difficult to add to the system Outside of making NC based propellant I also wanted to make a “expellable” case that I could use in this system where the case is blown out the barrel with the projectile    
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