Have we done this one yet??  I know many held Mattis up as a great wartime General, but after reading "The Only thing Worth Dying For". I am not so sure he is that great of a leader and to me he didn't exhibit what most people think of Marines. I talked to both my brother and sister (both Marines) they were shocked to hear of his actions.

More on ODA574 Friendly Fire

So what does GD say, a Marine General refusing to send help when American Servicemen are dying?

In on 1.

Without having been there to witness a first hand account, all I can say is sometimes decisions are tough, and must be made using very little information.

Conflicting situation for sure.

This. He was just waiting for more information, lest he get sucked into a prepared ambush.

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That's kind of how I took it.

army supports marines.

marines do not support army.

this is a known fact.

when you have an brigade + equivilent falling in on half a province, they still complain there aren't enough.

the marines entire afghanistan campaign was a largely self-congratulatory circle jerk of the random invasion of a worthless town as the capstone LFX for medals and fitreps every six months.

Never heard this one before.  I would like to to read more.  




 

Defense Retracted

Two things are paramount:  the mission, and the men.  It sounds that he wasn't willing to risk the men if the mission was unsure.

 

It's a hard decision, but war is hard.


I haven't read or seen anything about Mattis that leads me to think he let Americans die because he doesn't care.

Boooo!

Rule #4; Don't go rushing dick-first into enemy territory when you don't know what the fuck you're getting yourself into. Good way to get yourself killed.

ETA: It's a conservative, defensive stance that give priority to the big picture, not quite befitting of the Marines' appearance. But it is what it is; sometimes, in war, there are no right answers.

+1

In

U
Awesome!  You're gonna make new friends with that one.

Isn't that engraved on the wall at MCCDEC at Quantico?

All I'm going to say is Takur Ghar.

I'm sure Mattis learned lessons from the mistakes of others. Marines aren't stupid.

I think what General Mattis was saying was "give me more info before I send my guys in blind".

And I think that seems fair. He could have been sending men into an epic ambush.

This is what I think.

No shit. I had popcorn in the microwave as soon as I saw the 1st sentence.

Seems likely

By the way, The Only Thing Worth Dying For is an excellent book.  
Highly recommend

You're not a bad guy I don't think, but you're also full of shit. I've known Marine units that have helped Army.

I was in AFG when 3/5 was there. Self congratulatory circle jerk? Fuck you for saying that. That Bn lost a LOT of good fucking Marines.


BTW- we've sent air to medevac Soldiers and support them during a TIC. We inbed our own guys to call in CAS to support you.

Marines don't support the Army? Bullshit. We do whenever we can, because contrary to popular belief- despite the rivalry- we aren't so arrogant and small minded as you're acting right now as to allow people do die because they're in a different service.

In fact we'd jump at the chance to rescue you just so we could rub it in after the fact.

As far as the OP, I don't know that much about Mattis besides his reputation. From that little blurb, it's hard to judge without having been there. It's always easy to judge someone else's decisions when you don't know what else is going on.

He didnt refuse

So some broke dick JR officer walks into a generals office and cant answer basic questions.
The General basically tells him go get some more info besides "they need help".

He made the right call, people need to get the fuck over it shit happens during war.

I won't judge on the specific situation without having been there. That 'broke dick jr officer' was the SF major commanding the SF company. It's rare to impossible to have all the information about a situation, unfortunately technology creates the illusion that you can have 100% situational awareness and commanders become restricted by that illusion.

We actually did do this forever ago when I finished the book . The general consensus was that it was a tough call to make but a logical one. And that everyone there knew precisely that could be killed either in battle or because somebody fucked up and gave the Air Force a shitty target.

A feint, or diversionary attack, is a classic tactic to get the enemy to split his forces.

You attack at A. The enemy moves forces to defend A and counterattack. Those forces have to come from somewhere. They come from B.

Now that the enemy moved his forces away from B and weakened the defense, you attack B. B is weaker because the enemy moved forces to defend A.

That's what Mattis was talking about.

Oh, smart play to bring in the zoomies and distract Silvan with his favorite shiny thing.

(Posted by Sylvan)
"Army supports marines.

Marines do not support army.

this is a known fact.

when you have an brigade + equivilent falling in on half a province, they still complain there aren't enough.

the marines entire afghanistan campaign was a largely self-congratulatory circle jerk of the random invasion of a worthless town as the capstone LFX for medals and fitreps every six months."

I don't know what your experiences were but I think you are pretty narrow minded and nothing I say will change your mind from the bullshit you just posted. Enjoy believing the Marines are the villans.

Yeah, so where exactly is the bombshell here?

Wow...some people need to get the sand out of their vaginas.  I was just asking a simple question and for some input from those who served in AFG.

This is true.

We inserted via Army CH47s and UH60s, then were supported by AH64s, and at night we had an AC130 (lol thanks socom).

Then after a few weeks of intense fighting we declared victory, then the summer offensive started and our Army support was all gone. That's when things went lord of the flies.

In

Their job isn't a Rambo movie. They aren't rescuing orphans and old ladies. Marines are pros and war happens, get their stuff together, counter the attack and get pertinent info out ASAP.

This.

There's at least one member here who's served with Mattis and has very strong feelings against him.

I don't recall who he is, but I hope he shows up for this thread.

I've met General Mattis before face-to-face when he was the 1st MEF CG in 2006.  I was at the 1st MEF CP at Camp Del Mar, it was busy and loud then all I heard was "attention on deck" then eerie silence then foot steps and then there he was and he greeted me.  He of course commanded a lot of respect yet was down-to-earth at the same time.

Just thought I'd share since the General was the subject.

That is not a sound statement by any stretch.  

By definition if troops are in contact and asking for QRF, its probably not secure.


That being said, IIRC this was the one in 2001 or 2002 where the SF man or JTAC was calling in  a grid, the battery died in the plugger, and they didn't realize that if you pull out a battery and put in a fresh battery, the first grid you see is your own, not what you were working on.

In retrospect, not a good call. Lessons learned. It happens

Now. Reading between the lines, a "45 minute flight" is about 90 miles one way, and this is out of range of a huey, I think. So the Marines only had a couple of helicopters, the big 53s, that could range this.  So there was risk aversion. If he had really said "53s" as opposed to "anything" (maybe a bit of hyperbole there)  then yeah, I understand.

Generally speaking medevacs across all of DoD were pretty risk averse in OEF.  Army was too.  This ISNT a Marine thing.  There was a soldier or someone who DOW'd a long time after this because someone spazzed and asked for  a gunship to cover a medevac when the guy had stepped on a mine.

What you sorta learn over time is that if you want a medevac you get it faster if you can say the area is secured, or you arent taking fire, etc..  In this case  they weren't taking fire.  Had they communicated that, or that it was a frat, that information would have been useful.
You pretty quickly learn what the "right" answers are, and what the "wrong" answers are, and if the situation permits you tell people what they are looking to hear to get them to understand the risk is low enough for them to do what you want.
I would also say it is interesting that Mattis said he wouldn't send a helo until CAS was on station.  This is a good reason why combat power gets pushed, as medevac guys get touchy and if you want them to come it helps to tell the commander you have dominated the situation and the space is secured.

I made a comment like this in the last thread and people...oh yeah Sylvan, it was you...got up in arms over shows of force.

If you called for medevacs for guys that hit IEDs and lets say if there are no bullets flying then the birds get there quicker with less muss and fuss so you learn to ask that question and SELL THE MISSION.  So the SF guys weren't in the right either.  They could have gotten the bird if they asked the right questions.  
Two months or so after this that USAF PJ, Cunningham, died  of wounds on Roberts Ridge because a SOF leader wanted to wait for dark to risk a helicopter.  Pretty close to the same dilemma and the same call.

The sad truth is a "blackhawk down" is a media event and a dead grunt is not.  If you want to save the wounded grunt you better take steps to protect the medevac, or it aint happening.

I'm also going to throw out there that for a general officer to not delegate this down to somebody seems a bit odd.

In the beginning of wars people die who otherwise wouldnt have, later, when learning has occurred.  Get used to it.

FWIW, I met Amerine back when he was still infantry before he went SF.  I thought he was a really nice guy.

IN......

you hate marines

Curious to see how this goes.  Getting a pot of coffee ready.

lol.

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I can't comment on Jack Shit else, but reading the book, Amerine seemed like a very impressive individual.  
Cool head, smart and good character.  

No you weren't. If you had been you wouldn't have included the part about servicemen dying and him doing nothing.

Tag

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Because Posterity...I'm saving this one....

It is fact that he did nothing, it is fact that others in his command felt they should have done something. If that hurts your feelings, who gives a shit. I understand very well about risk v. reward, but getting up everyday puts you at risk.  When peoples lives are on the line you have to take some calculated risk.