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Posted: 12/31/2017 7:45:53 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the point of wheels was the wheels steered; no complicated steering of the tracks. The benefit of the tracks was they lowered ground pressure so the vehicle didn't sink in the mud and get stuck like a fully-wheeled vehicle would. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 9:37:50 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think they're straight copies. However, many years ago after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, a lot of them hit the market and I suspect all these 251s are actually post war Czech copies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: What are the tell tale identifiers between an OT-810 and Sd.Kfz. 251? |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:14:15 AM EDT
[#3]
 Panzerwerfer Nebelwerfer Wurfrahmen Rocket Launchers |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:52:26 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Germans had really cool machines. With the exception of ther aircraft. Many looked like they were made from Puerto Rican roof scraps. Even their coolest airplanes couldn't hold a candle to our planes (in therms of looks), like the B-29, B-52, P-51, P-38 and the FU4, just to name a few. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:55:06 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. At best it might have kept them in the war long enough to get nuked. There's no alternate universe in which Germany wins that war, aside from not fighting a war on two fronts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Germany had hundreds of thousands of Tabun loaded bombs stored in bunkers in the black forest that they never resorted to using. Had they, the outcome would have likely been quite different. Thank God we had God and the Soviets on our side. There's no alternate universe in which Germany wins that war, aside from not fighting a war on two fronts. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 1:03:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No one else had Tabun - IG Farben invented it.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Everyone had gas and nobody wanted to use it and it sure as shit wouldn't have saved Germany had they. This credible threat well known to German Inteligence - the positioning and readiness exposed by the destruction of the John Harvey at Bari as well as some exposures in other operations. Along with Churchhill's specific publicly stated threats, initially in March of '42 and periodically reinforced, convinced the Reich the allies would react to any use with massive raliation against German population centers. Though both side positioned CW munitions Churchill was taken seriously and Hitler decided to remain decidedly unfroggy in this area. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 2:17:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree, FW190 series, BF109 series, ME262, AR234, DO335, need I go on? agree The B29, wasn’t really that good of a plane and really a poor example, disagree The B-29 was a very good very hi-tech aircraft in 1945 |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 4:00:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I disagree, FW190 series, BF109 series, ME262, AR234, DO335, need I go on? agree The B29, wasn’t really that good of a plane and really a poor example, disagree The B-29 was a very good very hi-tech aircraft in 1945 Their engineers station had the throttles backwards so on a normal plane when the engineer went to throttle down, the 29 you would throttle up, and blow a engine. They were so under powered that they actually removed all defensive aremament except the tail guns so they actually load them out without fear of crashing on take off. The standard procedure was to have all ducts open for maximum cooling while taxing and taking off, but they would close everything up rather chancing over heating for better aerodynamics so if you did loose a engine on take off, you could hopefully drop your load in the ocean and circle back. They actually had to consolidate bases as their maintaince requirements and needing engines made it next to impossible without enlarging exisisting bases to consolidate resources and parts. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 4:15:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This, but in all fairness, we didn't have a reliable way to deliver a nuke in the European theater either. London to Berlin: ~600 miles You: 
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Posted: 12/31/2017 4:35:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
B-29 Range: +3200 miles London to Berlin: ~600 miles You: Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: This, but in all fairness, we didn't have a reliable way to deliver a nuke in the European theater either. London to Berlin: ~600 miles You: |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 4:49:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe before you post your ignorance you should know what your talking about??? It’s not it’s not it’s combat radius. Go study the B-29, oh and by the way the nuclear B-29’s were not even remotely the same as ones that conventional bomb versions. I’d help you some but since you seem to know all about them, I’m not wasting my time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: This, but in all fairness, we didn't have a reliable way to deliver a nuke in the European theater either. London to Berlin: ~600 miles You: |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 4:54:53 PM EDT
[#12]
I seems a lot of German half-tracks have survived. Were they kept going post-war?
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Posted: 12/31/2017 5:04:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the point of wheels was the wheels steered; no complicated steering of the tracks. The benefit of the tracks was they lowered ground pressure so the vehicle didn't sink in the mud and get stuck like a fully-wheeled vehicle would. So your suggestion certainly fits with the way we made them. And full-track transmissions were heavy, inefficient, expensive, and slow generally even though some overcame a few of these deficiencies during WWII. The little German motorcycle halftrack has differential brakes to help steering in bad conditions like a farm tractor. Don't think ours had that. Don't know about the German large halftracks. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 5:23:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Distance from Tinian to Japan to drop atomic bombs was +3,000 miles round trip. The 29’s were pressurized which was great except the German fighters them by around 10,000 feet, what happens when a bullet or multiple rounds, let alone explosive hit a pressurized plane? Not good. The final issue the number of nuclear modified B-29’s were the numbers, 46 were built, with 15 going to Tinian to drop two bombs, of these the rest were used for training here. They were not even delivered until the very end of July and the first of August so exactly how could we have bombed Berlin until at least August? We didn’t use the 29’s because they were deemed to unreliable and it would be to costly in lives and equipment. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 5:36:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bingo. Just don't tell the germanophiles. ETA. For the record, the Sd.Kfz.250/251 were sexy as fuck  Hugo Bosssssss....... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Yep. At best it might have kept them in the war long enough to get nuked. There's no alternate universe in which Germany wins that war, aside from not fighting a war on two fronts. ETA. For the record, the Sd.Kfz.250/251 were sexy as fuck Hugo Bosssssss.......Fact is, we learned German tactics. They could never match our production. And as fierce as the Germans fought, the Russians murdered Germans in prodigious fashion. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 5:49:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were not, my dad flew them, I have gone to reunions and met others he flew with, and they will all tell you they were underpowered pieces of shit, the Wright’s were prone to flameouts, fires, they had 80 gallon oil tanks for each engine and would be empty 95% of the time when they returned. Read up about them, it took until late July and early August just to enough of the modified models to drop two nuclear bombs. Their engineers station had the throttles backwards so on a normal plane when the engineer went to throttle down, the 29 you would throttle up, and blow a engine. They were so under powered that they actually removed all defensive aremament except the tail guns so they actually load them out without fear of crashing on take off. The standard procedure was to have all ducts open for maximum cooling while taxing and taking off, but they would close everything up rather chancing over heating for better aerodynamics so if you did loose a engine on take off, you could hopefully drop your load in the ocean and circle back. They actually had to consolidate bases as their maintaince requirements and needing engines made it next to impossible without enlarging exisisting bases to consolidate resources and parts. (My Dad hated the M16 rifle, like many Vietnam vets.) more money was spent developing it than the Manhattan project The Soviets wanted it bad....bad enough to reverse engineer/ copy and make them. Tu-4 it certainly had teething problems, but was state of the art in 1945. what other nation in WWII built anything close to it ? |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 5:59:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But if you're going to track steer, what are the front steering wheels doing for you? Why not just go all tracked?
Why haven't modern militaries continued with the half track concept? |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 6:14:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Thread needs moar Half-tracks.
 Halftrack vehicle of the Wehrmacht (Demag) |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 6:18:43 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I have read about all those issues, it was still a great aircraft. . . . . maybe not popular with the brave men, like your father, that had to fly them. (My Dad hated the M16 rifle, like many Vietnam vets.) more money was spent developing it than the Manhattan project The Soviets wanted it bad....bad enough to reverse engineer/ copy and make them. Tu-4 it certainly had teething problems, but was state of the art in 1945. what other nation in WWII built anything close to it ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: They were not, my dad flew them, I have gone to reunions and met others he flew with, and they will all tell you they were underpowered pieces of shit, the Wright’s were prone to flameouts, fires, they had 80 gallon oil tanks for each engine and would be empty 95% of the time when they returned. Read up about them, it took until late July and early August just to enough of the modified models to drop two nuclear bombs. Their engineers station had the throttles backwards so on a normal plane when the engineer went to throttle down, the 29 you would throttle up, and blow a engine. They were so under powered that they actually removed all defensive aremament except the tail guns so they actually load them out without fear of crashing on take off. The standard procedure was to have all ducts open for maximum cooling while taxing and taking off, but they would close everything up rather chancing over heating for better aerodynamics so if you did loose a engine on take off, you could hopefully drop your load in the ocean and circle back. They actually had to consolidate bases as their maintaince requirements and needing engines made it next to impossible without enlarging exisisting bases to consolidate resources and parts. (My Dad hated the M16 rifle, like many Vietnam vets.) more money was spent developing it than the Manhattan project The Soviets wanted it bad....bad enough to reverse engineer/ copy and make them. Tu-4 it certainly had teething problems, but was state of the art in 1945. what other nation in WWII built anything close to it ? They realized right off the bat, no 29 was going to haul the atomic bombs as delivered, the changes were were extensive. It was a very smart move to not use them in Europe dad always said, as they might have been canceled as he and his friends always felt the losses would have been like the unescorted B-17’s had. More B-29’s were lost to mechanical issues than combat. Actual combat losses were not that great, but the numbers don’t tell the story as it was a shorter time span, the largest formation was about 100 planes, and the Japanese were pretty well beat by then and had no fighters really able to combat against it. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 6:34:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's an unditching roller,so that the nose didn't plow in and get the vehicle stuck when going across ditches or when dealing with steep approach angles. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 6:37:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: It's an unditching roller,so that the nose didn't plow in and get the vehicle stuck when going across ditches or when dealing with steep approach angles. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 7:21:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree, FW190 series, BF109 series, ME262, AR234, DO335, need I go on? The B29, wasn’t really that good of a plane and really a poor example, B52? |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 7:22:00 PM EDT
[#23]
I got to talk to a guy with a M3 and got to crawl under it. It was amazingly simple. Just a regular truck diff driving the sprockets.
all the rest of the track stuff was just idlers. I was expecting more for some reason. He said he only got about 3000 miles on one of the tracks, I forget which side he said. The other side lasted twice as long. He said he got new tracks from someplace in Israel. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 9:01:34 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes it was, but the planes reliabilty issues, required the consolidation of the units flying them. They also preferred to launch them out over water so the 29’s could either drop their bomb load and hopefully come around, or drop and ditch. They also had to strip them down of their defense armamanet so they could carry their combat load as well as giving them more speed as a defense. High altitude bombing proved a disaster so low level was used instead. Now those issues all work against the European theater. The 29’s were pressurized which was great except the German fighters them by around 10,000 feet, what happens when a bullet or multiple rounds, let alone explosive hit a pressurized plane? Not good. The final issue the number of nuclear modified B-29’s were the numbers, 46 were built, with 15 going to Tinian to drop two bombs, of these the rest were used for training here. They were not even delivered until the very end of July and the first of August so exactly how could we have bombed Berlin until at least August? We didn’t use the 29’s because they were deemed to unreliable and it would be to costly in lives and equipment. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Distance from Tinian to Japan to drop atomic bombs was +3,000 miles round trip. The 29’s were pressurized which was great except the German fighters them by around 10,000 feet, what happens when a bullet or multiple rounds, let alone explosive hit a pressurized plane? Not good. The final issue the number of nuclear modified B-29’s were the numbers, 46 were built, with 15 going to Tinian to drop two bombs, of these the rest were used for training here. They were not even delivered until the very end of July and the first of August so exactly how could we have bombed Berlin until at least August? We didn’t use the 29’s because they were deemed to unreliable and it would be to costly in lives and equipment. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 9:19:03 PM EDT
[#25]
I never knew B-29s were halftracks. Learn something new every day
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Posted: 12/31/2017 9:26:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote History |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 9:34:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Czech half track |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 9:36:07 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Saw this one at a reenactment.
http://i.imgur.com/icSbA4o.jpg http://i.imgur.com/zLMo2bZ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1fvj4RR.jpg |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 9:43:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I seems a lot of German half-tracks have survived. Were they kept going post-war? |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 10:01:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's still pissed about the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I disagree, FW190 series, BF109 series, ME262, AR234, DO335, need I go on? The B29, wasn’t really that good of a plane and really a poor example, B52? |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 10:05:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Distance from Tinian to Japan to drop atomic bombs was +3,000 miles round trip. The 29’s were pressurized which was great except the German fighters them by around 10,000 feet, what happens when a bullet or multiple rounds, let alone explosive hit a pressurized plane? Not good. The final issue the number of nuclear modified B-29’s were the numbers, 46 were built, with 15 going to Tinian to drop two bombs, of these the rest were used for training here. They were not even delivered until the very end of July and the first of August so exactly how could we have bombed Berlin until at least August? We didn’t use the 29’s because they were deemed to unreliable and it would be to costly in lives and equipment. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 10:05:48 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never knew B-29s were halftracks. Learn something new every day |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 10:27:38 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 12/31/2017 10:55:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Am I wrong in thinking this looks about as well armored as your average snowblower? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Saw this one at a reenactment.
http://i.imgur.com/icSbA4o.jpg http://i.imgur.com/zLMo2bZ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1fvj4RR.jpg German 8mm AP would penetrate an M3 halftrack |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 10:57:39 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh look, it comes in Moar-Dakka! flavor. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/286652/US_Army_M16_MGMC_AA_Half-track-407563.JPG |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:04:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice pic, note the chains on the front wheels. The M3 had a live axle which helped with its cross country performance Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Oh look, it comes in Moar-Dakka! flavor. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/286652/US_Army_M16_MGMC_AA_Half-track-407563.JPG   Attached File |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:05:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well that add allot, Care to elaborate, or are you another well I read this, so I know all. I at least have talked with pilots, actually flew on FIFI, and have been around planes my whole, including flying. I also have my degree in aeronautical engineering, and licensed to fly IFR, with multi ratings as well as type checkouts. 
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:08:26 PM EDT
[#38]
Didn't anyone else have this model as a kid?
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:12:46 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't anyone else have this model as a kid? https://www.modelcars.com/model-kit-zoom/revell-tom-daniels-rommels-rod.jpg Had that back in the early 70's. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:12:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't anyone else have this model as a kid? https://www.modelcars.com/model-kit-zoom/revell-tom-daniels-rommels-rod.jpg |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:13:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you should start a thread on the B-29 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Well that add allot, Care to elaborate, or are you another well I read this, so I know all. I at least have talked with pilots, actually flew on FIFI, and have been around planes my whole, including flying. I also have my degree in aeronautical engineering, and licensed to fly IFR, with multi ratings as well as type checkouts. |
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Posted: 12/31/2017 11:25:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know on the little motorcycle half-track that the tracks steered once the front wheel turned a certain amount. I'm pretty sure the Germans kept that ability on the larger half tracks too. We're talking about Germans here, if they could overcomplicate and increase production and maintenance costs for a tiny bit of increased capability they were sure to do it. Also seems American half-tracks were "all-wheel drive" so the steering wheels up front were powered and didn't dig in - they pulled. |
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Posted: 1/1/2018 1:02:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Having once been a re-enactor, I have ridden in both a US M3 and a German Sd.Kfz. 251 (really a dolled up Skoda 810). I can tell you that given my druthers I'll take the Kraut (CZ) vehicle any day of the week and twice on Sundays. The 251 has a nice smooth ride with a gentle rocking motion going over rough terrain. Over the same terrain, the M3 will bounce you around like peas in a tin can. The M3 was so poorly armored that many GIs had a distinct allergy to riding in them if there was a chance of getting shot at. This suited a lot of the drivers just fine, they having no illusions about just how bullet resistant the M3 was. After North Africa the M3 was used much less aggressively (commanders had originally wanted the 'tracks to carry the infantry right next to the tanks) with lower casualties. The angled armor of the 250/251 was much better at shrugging off gunfire although it was by no means capable of taking on any kind of anti-tank anything, including the PTRS and PTRD rifles of the Soviets. The German 'tracks got used a lot more simply because Russia is a mighty big place, and the krauts were always short on trucks. Please note the Russians solved the infantry transport issue by welding handholds to the tanks themselves and having them climb aboard completely exposed. We gave them a bunch of halftracks but they tended to use them for trucks or towing since real men ride the outside of tanks. We also gave a bunch to the Brits, who mostly either used them for command and staff vehicles or gave them to the Commonwealth or Allied (Polish, etc) forces...who also used them as command, staff or recon vehicles.
In practice, the half track concept was flawed just in general. It provided no overhead protection and was too lightly armored no matter who made it. They really shined in the many gun carrier, towing and utility configurations they were used for though, and this is the primary use most saw in the Second World War. |
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Posted: 1/1/2018 7:33:58 AM EDT
[#44]
Great thread thanks !!
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Posted: 1/1/2018 8:15:27 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe before you post your ignorance you should know what your talking about??? It's not it's not it's combat radius. Go study the B-29, oh and by the way the nuclear B-29's were not even remotely the same as ones that conventional bomb versions. I'd help you some but since you seem to know all about them, I'm not wasting my time. <a>Tinian to Hiroshima distance</a><a href="https://www.flightpedia.org/distance-hiroshima-to-tinian.html"> </a> No offense, but you still =
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Posted: 1/1/2018 8:16:03 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Distance from Tinian to Japan to drop atomic bombs was +3,000 miles round trip. |
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Posted: 1/1/2018 8:26:45 AM EDT
[#47]
This discussion is relavent to my interests. I just don’t need to trailer it everywhere.
 Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/1/2018 8:32:02 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Close but the front gives it away. The OT-810 had a taller bonnet but what really gives it away is the front plate is entirely flat rather than having a vertical center ridge that falls to a shallow slope. It looks like an Sdkfz 250 that ran directly into a wall and mushed the nose flat. Also the Czechs replaced the German chameleon looking headlights with ones that look more like those on American and Soviet trucks. |
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Posted: 1/1/2018 8:34:19 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In practice, the half track concept was flawed just in general. It provided no overhead protection and was too lightly armored no matter who made it. They really shined in the many gun carrier, towing and utility configurations they were used for though, and this is the primary use most saw in the Second World War. |
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Posted: 1/1/2018 10:00:29 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Care to try again? <a>Tinian to Hiroshima distance</a><a href="https://www.flightpedia.org/distance-hiroshima-to-tinian.html"> </a> No offense, but you still = Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Maybe before you post your ignorance you should know what your talking about??? It's not it's not it's combat radius. Go study the B-29, oh and by the way the nuclear B-29's were not even remotely the same as ones that conventional bomb versions. I'd help you some but since you seem to know all about them, I'm not wasting my time. <a>Tinian to Hiroshima distance</a><a href="https://www.flightpedia.org/distance-hiroshima-to-tinian.html"> </a> No offense, but you still = Now the first was not available until the end of July and the rest were finished the first of August, how would the have dropped a bomb on Germany? The 2nd point you fail to grasp, the 29’s were stripped of all armament so they could carry their combat load, also trading that weight for speed, that would not have worked over in Europe and we knew it, they would have been slaughtered. So since your so much smarter explain how do we drop a atomic bomb on Germany? Combat radius doesn’t mean shit, if the plane can’t get there in the first place. ETA, don’t you get tired of being a Wikipedia |
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