German half-tracks of WWII - Page 4

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Posted: 1/1/2018 10:02:13 AM EDT

[#1]

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Someone else said that it combined the worse features of a wheeled and a tracked vehicle.

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Yea, but I still want a M3, have wanted one since I saw one as a kid, plus a friend has one and even though their pretty useless, the cool factor is off the books.

Posted: 1/1/2018 2:00:41 PM EDT

[#2]

Yea t the timeline for any use of atomic weapons against Germany doesn't work. But even before the program bore fruit, there was a great deal of discussion about the advisability of dropping an atomic device on Germany.

It was unclear to the Allies how much progress the Germans had made. As with Hitler's decision after being advised by Ambros concerning tthe likelihood of the Allies possessing GA as well, the Allies debated advisability given their understanding of the situation at the time. Many in the Allied command structure (Allied - the U.K was a partner in the program and the US had agreed to approval of both parties for any use) believed the German program to be much more advanced than eventually found. As with Hitler's decision to remove CW as a battlefield option - the Allies uncertainty bred caution.

From the monopolizing of Czech uranium, various pre war publication, quite a bit of intelligence gleaned after the the US there was concern the German program was relatively advanced. Serious dicsussions centered around whether dropping a device, that in the case of failure may provide a Germany that was believed to have had the materials and theoretical expertise, a working model of an atomic weapon. For that reason it was highly unlikely even if the Allies had operational weapons, they'd be utilized given the state of the war and this concern.

That said, in some alternate situation where Germany used or the allies seriously believed Germany was preparing to use WMDs, the allies had operational atomic weapons, and their use would be favorable. Zero doubt the Allies had the ability and absolute will to deliver a strike anywhere in the European theatre, despite an short comings of the B-29.

Posted: 1/1/2018 2:17:45 PM EDT

[#3]

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Quoted:
Someone else said that it combined the worse features of a wheeled and a tracked vehicle.

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Quoted:

In practice, the half track concept was flawed just in general. It provided no overhead protection and was too lightly armored no matter who made it. They really shined in the many gun carrier, towing and utility configurations they were used for though, and this is the primary use most saw in the Second World War.

Someone else said that it combined the worse features of a wheeled and a tracked vehicle.

Unless the resistance was very very light, or you were attempting to bypass, German infantry fought dismounted.

As a result, if concentrated artillery was used in the defense, separating the infantry from the armor stopped the attack.

The problem was, in accordance with blitzkrieg tactics, you might have a task force of a couple companies of tanks in the front, and needed a small detachment of infantry.

You couldn't rely on trucks, as they could get bogged down,especially if you armored them even a little. The wheels focused the weight and didn't spread it out like tracks. For the infantry to keep up they needed track mobility.

Admittedly, the armor was only half an inch. Didn't stop much besides rifle ammo and artillery frag.

The industry to create armored vehicles as thick as tanks, to carry infantry, was pretty costly.

The Israelis have done it with a T55 knock off. Bradley armor is pretty thick.

The best WWII APC was probably the kangaroo. The British took shermans, sometimes M7s, and ripped the turrets off and let the infantry ride. Expensive to do, but well armored.

Posted: 1/1/2018 2:32:57 PM EDT

[#4]

Nobody mention Gary's yet?

http://www.halftracks.com

Saw a M2 for sale somewhere in the Midwest - it wasn't Midwest Military - pretty cherry but $60k seems dear. But no idea what they run anymore.

There was a M9 our there last spring as well but don't recall the price and likely sold by now

Posted: 1/1/2018 2:34:53 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yea t the timeline for any use of atomic weapons against Germany doesn't work. But even before the program bore fruit, there was a great deal of discussion about the advisability of dropping an atomic device on Germany.

It was unclear to the Allies how much progress the Germans had made. As with Hitler's decision after being advised by Ambros concerning tthe likelihood of the Allies possessing GA as well, the Allies debated advisability given their understanding of the situation at the time. Many in the Allied command structure (Allied - the U.K was a partner in the program and the US had agreed to approval of both parties for any use) believed the German program to be much more advanced than eventually found. As with Hitler's decision to remove CW as a battlefield option - the Allies uncertainty bred caution.

From the monopolizing of Czech uranium, various pre war publication, quite a bit of intelligence gleaned after the the US there was concern the German program was relatively advanced. Serious dicsussions centered around whether dropping a device, that in the case of failure may provide a Germany that was believed to have had the materials and theoretical expertise, a working model of an atomic weapon. For that reason it was highly unlikely even if the Allies had operational weapons, they'd be utilized given the state of the war and this concern.

That said, in some alternate situation where Germany used or the allies seriously believed Germany was preparing to use WMDs, the allies had operational atomic weapons, and their use would be favorable. Zero doubt the Allies had the ability and absolute will to deliver a strike anywhere in the European theatre, despite an short comings of the B-29.

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I agree, the issue is/was, even throwing everything we could at getting the 29 able to deliver, we still didn’t have actual Silverplate 29’s until the very end of July first of August. The issue about dropping a atomic bomb on Germany the silverplate planes had to have all their armament removed as well.

Going into Nazi Germany would have been potentially suicide for the plane, if just one or two shells hit it, the depressirizing of it would have been catastrophic. That was one of the reasons we did not send them to the European theater, as well as is unreliability and the measures taken to make it work in the pacific theater.

Posted: 1/1/2018 2:37:40 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
Nobody mention Gary's yet?

http://www.halftracks.com

Saw a M2 for sale somewhere in the Midwest - it wasn't Midwest Military - pretty cherry but $60k seems dear. But no idea what they run anymore.

There was a M9 our there last spring as well but don't recall the price and likely sold by now

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Quoted:
Nobody mention Gary's yet?

http://www.halftracks.com

Saw a M2 for sale somewhere in the Midwest - it wasn't Midwest Military - pretty cherry but $60k seems dear. But no idea what they run anymore.

There was a M9 our there last spring as well but don't recall the price and likely sold by now

Went to Gary's and found this:

for sale a solid kettenkrad older resto.
if you need pic.s info do not esitate to contact me even by phone 01139-335-623-1711 machine sounds and drives fantastic. misses orig. carb and rifle racks.
asking 75000 euros

Nazi Germany should have not invaded Russia, made peace with France and then leave it and make peace with England (after creating a Polish buffer state). Then it could wait 60 years and sell their stuff for big bucks!

Posted: 1/1/2018 3:11:14 PM EDT

[#7]

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Quoted:
Nobody mention Gary's yet?

http://www.halftracks.com

Saw a M2 for sale somewhere in the Midwest - it wasn't Midwest Military - pretty cherry but $60k seems dear. But no idea what they run anymore.

There was a M9 our there last spring as well but don't recall the price and likely sold by now

View Quote

Gary is pretty expensive from what I’ve seen, 60-65 seems to be the going rate for a completed running, restored, semi restored M2 or M3, M16’s with the quad 50’s seem to run allot more. My friends M3 is actually a M3A1 with a 50 cal ring gear, as well as a full rear skate rail for a 30.

On a side note does anyone remember southern parts company? Gary from Gary’s halftracks bought their entire remaining stock and got his “official” start after that.

" />

Posted: 1/1/2018 5:49:21 PM EDT

[#8]

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Quoted:

I agree, the issue is/was, even throwing everything we could at getting the 29 able to deliver, we still didn't have actual Silverplate 29's until the very end of July first of August. The issue about dropping a atomic bomb on Germany the silverplate planes had to have all their armament removed as well.

Going into Nazi Germany would have been potentially suicide for the plane, if just one or two shells hit it, the depressirizing of it would have been catastrophic. That was one of the reasons we did not send them to the European theater, as well as is unreliability and the measures taken to make it work in the pacific theater.

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The short comings of the B-29 were well known. As were those of the 17, 24, etc. it didn't stop their use. There were shortcomings with all WWII systems. We made due, got shit done and lots of guys died on the way because of it. Just like today. Hell European Theatre daylight bombing for quite some time was for all intents a suicide mission.

Once you start positing the use of WMDs in Europe, the entire situation would have changed to the point of being unrecognizable. Timelines would be different, allowing systems like B-32s to come on line. Or something entirely different. Modified tactics, massive escort missions, whatever it took, if delivering a atomic weapons was required once they were available, it would have gotten done. Period. Dot.

So yes, the way history unfolded , it was just impossible to drop a nuke on Germany because the program hadn't produced any by VE Day (May 8 - Trinity Test was July 16) and it wasn't necessary. But to claim we could never, under any circumstances delivered one in Europe because the 29 was fragile is simply an overstatement.

Posted: 1/1/2018 5:57:31 PM EDT

[#9]

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Quoted:
The short comings of the B-29 were well known. As were those of the 17, 24, etc. it didn't stop their use. There were shortcomings with all WWII systems. We made due, got shit done and lots of guys died on the way because of it. Just like today. Hell European Theatre daylight bombing for quite some time was for all intents a suicide mission.

Once you start positing the use of WMDs in Europe, the entire situation would have changed to the point of being unrecognizable. Timelines would be different, allowing systems like B-32s to come on line. Or something entirely different. Modified tactics, massive escort missions, whatever it took, if delivering a atomic weapons was required once they were available, it would have gotten done. Period. Dot.

So yes, the way history unfolded , it was just impossible to drop a nuke on Germany because the program hadn't produced any by VE Day (May 8 - Trinity Test was July 16) and it wasn't necessary. But to claim we could never, under any circumstances delivered one in Europe because the 29 was fragile is simply an overstatement.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

I agree, the issue is/was, even throwing everything we could at getting the 29 able to deliver, we still didn't have actual Silverplate 29's until the very end of July first of August. The issue about dropping a atomic bomb on Germany the silverplate planes had to have all their armament removed as well.

Going into Nazi Germany would have been potentially suicide for the plane, if just one or two shells hit it, the depressirizing of it would have been catastrophic. That was one of the reasons we did not send them to the European theater, as well as is unreliability and the measures taken to make it work in the pacific theater.

The short comings of the B-29 were well known. As were those of the 17, 24, etc. it didn't stop their use. There were shortcomings with all WWII systems. We made due, got shit done and lots of guys died on the way because of it. Just like today. Hell European Theatre daylight bombing for quite some time was for all intents a suicide mission.

Once you start positing the use of WMDs in Europe, the entire situation would have changed to the point of being unrecognizable. Timelines would be different, allowing systems like B-32s to come on line. Or something entirely different. Modified tactics, massive escort missions, whatever it took, if delivering a atomic weapons was required once they were available, it would have gotten done. Period. Dot.

So yes, the way history unfolded , it was just impossible to drop a nuke on Germany because the program hadn't produced any by VE Day (May 8 - Trinity Test was July 16) and it wasn't necessary. But to claim we could never, under any circumstances delivered one in Europe because the 29 was fragile is simply an overstatement.

Not really, one needs to study the 29, read about the Silverplate, my dad was a pilot, I’ve talked to quite a few, at reuninions, it’s pressurization as well as deleting its defensive firepower was also it’s Achilles heel as well, while pulling the guns worked in the Pacific, that wasn’t a option against the Luftwaffe, plus if any round took out the pressurization that would be a death hit. I’m not saying it couldn’t of happened but when you spend more money than the Manhattan Project on a plane, then have to do a complete other set of mods to make it nuclear capable, it just wouldn’t have happened unless we were still fighting the Germans in late 45, maybe even 46.

Posted: 1/1/2018 5:57:52 PM EDT

[#10]

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Gary is pretty expensive from what I've seen, 60-65 seems to be the going rate for a completed running, restored, semi restored M2 or M3, M16's with the quad 50's seem to run allot more. My friends M3 is actually a M3A1 with a 50 cal ring gear, as well as a full rear skate rail for a 30.

On a side note does anyone remember southern parts company? Gary from Gary's halftracks bought their entire remaining stock and got his "official" start after that.
<a href="<a href=" http:="" s1159.photobucket.com="" user="" stennesm="" media="" 7597bdde-99fa-4f02-9677-ad5b2a6eb589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg.html"=""></a><a href="http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg</a>" ><a="">[url]http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg</a>">http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg">[url=http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/stennesm/media/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg.html]http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg

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Nobody mention Gary's yet?

http://www.halftracks.com

Saw a M2 for sale somewhere in the Midwest - it wasn't Midwest Military - pretty cherry but $60k seems dear. But no idea what they run anymore.

There was a M9 our there last spring as well but don't recall the price and likely sold by now

Gary is pretty expensive from what I've seen, 60-65 seems to be the going rate for a completed running, restored, semi restored M2 or M3, M16's with the quad 50's seem to run allot more. My friends M3 is actually a M3A1 with a 50 cal ring gear, as well as a full rear skate rail for a 30.

On a side note does anyone remember southern parts company? Gary from Gary's halftracks bought their entire remaining stock and got his "official" start after that.
<a href="<a href=" http:="" s1159.photobucket.com="" user="" stennesm="" media="" 7597bdde-99fa-4f02-9677-ad5b2a6eb589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg.html"=""></a><a href="http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg</a>" ><a="">[url]http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg</a>">http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg">[url=http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/stennesm/media/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg.html]http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg

I imagine he's not cheap, but he's a specialist in a very limited field so it's no surprise. Didn't see him mentioned, but wasn't a a recommendation in any event.

Didn't realize that's how he got his start. Like everything, the cost of entry continues to climb.If I think about it, it's not bad for what your getting.

Posted: 1/1/2018 6:02:32 PM EDT

[#11]

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what was the point of them? any advantage to have wheels on the front as opposed to just having tracks?

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It combined the off road traction of a tracked vehicle with the ease of steering of a wheeled vehicle. Using the wheels to steer the vehicle allowed them to do away with the complex synchronized braking system tracked vehicles needed at that era. Any truck driver could drive a half track.

In comparison, here is how German tanks had to steer: It steered by outright braking one side or the other.

Panzer Panther im Gelände German Tank in Motion 2009 Trier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsodIneQGzI

Posted: 1/1/2018 6:06:16 PM EDT

[#12]

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I imagine he's not cheap, but he's a specialist in a very limited field so it's no surprise. Didn't see him mentioned, but wasn't a a recommendation in any event.

Didn't realize that's how he got his start. Like everything, the cost of entry continues to climb.If I think about it, it's not bad for what your getting.

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Nobody mention Gary's yet?

http://www.halftracks.com

Saw a M2 for sale somewhere in the Midwest - it wasn't Midwest Military - pretty cherry but $60k seems dear. But no idea what they run anymore.

There was a M9 our there last spring as well but don't recall the price and likely sold by now

Gary is pretty expensive from what I've seen, 60-65 seems to be the going rate for a completed running, restored, semi restored M2 or M3, M16's with the quad 50's seem to run allot more. My friends M3 is actually a M3A1 with a 50 cal ring gear, as well as a full rear skate rail for a 30.

On a side note does anyone remember southern parts company? Gary from Gary's halftracks bought their entire remaining stock and got his "official" start after that.
<a href="<a href=" http:="" s1159.photobucket.com="" user="" stennesm="" media="" 7597bdde-99fa-4f02-9677-ad5b2a6eb589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg.html"=""></a><a href="http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg</a>" ><a="">[url]http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg</a>">http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg">[url=http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/stennesm/media/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg.html]http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p636/stennesm/7597BDDE-99FA-4F02-9677-AD5B2A6EB589_zpsadbyd0v8.jpeg

I imagine he's not cheap, but he's a specialist in a very limited field so it's no surprise. Didn't see him mentioned, but wasn't a a recommendation in any event.

Didn't realize that's how he got his start. Like everything, the cost of entry continues to climb.If I think about it, it's not bad for what your getting.

No, I agree, he’s got some good deals on parts, and my friend has bought from him in the past. It was explained to me that if your a serious collector you can find most of the parts for less, but he’s a one stop shop, and he does provide a service. I’m not knocking him or his business, I was pointing out he’s expensive. I know for a fact that another friend of mine was looking at getting a M4 motor carrier Gary had, but he wouldn’t negotiate the price at all. Well he was at one of Paul Allen’s armor weekends and there is was, the same halftrack. Gary was brokering the deal, and the owner wanted to sell it and was tired of nothing happening, had we gotten there earlier he would have ended up with it, Gary wanted 50, it so,d there for 40!

Posted: 1/1/2018 6:15:16 PM EDT

[#13]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsodIneQGzI

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Sweet! Late G with zimmerit? Anyone know the details on this tank?

Posted: 1/1/2018 6:16:21 PM EDT

[#14]

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Quoted:

It combined the off road traction of a tracked vehicle with the ease of steering of a wheeled vehicle. Using the wheels to steer the vehicle allowed them to do away with the complex synchronized braking system tracked vehicles needed at that era. Any truck driver could drive a half track.

In comparison, here is how German tanks had to steer: It steered by outright braking one side or the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsodIneQGzI

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That needs to be parked in my garage

Posted: 1/1/2018 6:34:24 PM EDT

[#15]

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Not really, one needs to study the 29, read about the Silverplate, my dad was a pilot, I've talked to quite a few, at reuninions, it's pressurization as well as deleting its defensive firepower was also it's Achilles heel as well, while pulling the guns worked in the Pacific, that wasn't a option against the Luftwaffe, plus if any round took out the pressurization that would be a death hit. I'm not saying it couldn't of happened but when you spend more money than the Manhattan Project on a plane, then have to do a complete other set of mods to make it nuclear capable, it just wouldn't have happened unless we were still fighting the Germans in late 45, maybe even 46.

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Which is my point. If it was necessary, the situation leading up - in 42, 43, 44, - would have been radically different. A switch wouldn't have gone off on 7 May 45 indicating we needed to deliver a Mk II tomorrow. The entirety of the event leading up would have been entirely unrecognizable.

Silverplate would have been pursuing entirely different program goals, as would have Manhattan. Hap would have an entirely different set of exigences . Many of the issues you posit would have been resolved or sidestepped, as they had been in almost every other aspect of the war. As it was, things progressed as they did because we were winning in Europe. If we hadn't been, the entire prosecution of the war, resource allocation, strategic goals, everything would have changed.

The B-29 and its characteristics, would have been immaterial in the totality of the allies efforts that would have been radically changed from the history we know.

Posted: 1/1/2018 6:45:17 PM EDT

[#16]

I have a 1/18 scale Ausf D I’m converting to an Ausf C

Attached File

Attached File

One of these years I’ll actually complete it.

Posted: 1/1/2018 7:23:48 PM EDT

[#17]

One of the more schizoid threads lately- anyway, halftracks are cool and the Lancaster could have delivered the bomb if necessary- it was studied as a carrier and had the requisite performance.

Posted: 1/1/2018 7:50:25 PM EDT

[#18]

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Sweet! Late G with zimmerit? Anyone know the details on this tank?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsodIneQGzI

Sweet! Late G with zimmerit? Anyone know the details on this tank?

That is Panther 801. It was one of nine armored vehicles built from stock parts after the war by the British to study German tank manufacturing. It was lying around in England until they traded it to a German museum in the 80's for a Marder, where it was fully restored. That's where this outdoor demonstration was held.

It never saw action and it never would have had Zimmerit if it were built during wartime but it's a true Panther.

Posted: 1/1/2018 7:56:03 PM EDT

[#19]

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Quoted:

That is Panther 801. It was one of nine armored vehicles built from stock parts after the war by the British to study German tank manufacturing. It was lying around in England until they traded it to a German museum in the 80's for a Marder, where it was fully restored. That's where this outdoor demonstration was held.

It never saw action and it never would have had Zimmerit if it were built during wartime but it's a true Panther.

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Cool. Yeah, a little WTF going on.

Posted: 1/1/2018 8:32:48 PM EDT

[#20]

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Quoted:
Which is my point. If it was necessary, the situation leading up - in 42, 43, 44, - would have been radically different. A switch wouldn't have gone off on 7 May 45 indicating we needed to deliver a Mk II tomorrow. The entirety of the event leading up would have been entirely unrecognizable.

Silverplate would have been pursuing entirely different program goals, as would have Manhattan. Hap would have an entirely different set of exigences . Many of the issues you posit would have been resolved or sidestepped, as they had been in almost every other aspect of the war. As it was, things progressed as they did because we were winning in Europe. If we hadn't been, the entire prosecution of the war, resource allocation, strategic goals, everything would have changed.

The B-29 and its characteristics, would have been immaterial in the totality of the allies efforts that would have been radically changed from the history we know.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Not really, one needs to study the 29, read about the Silverplate, my dad was a pilot, I've talked to quite a few, at reuninions, it's pressurization as well as deleting its defensive firepower was also it's Achilles heel as well, while pulling the guns worked in the Pacific, that wasn't a option against the Luftwaffe, plus if any round took out the pressurization that would be a death hit. I'm not saying it couldn't of happened but when you spend more money than the Manhattan Project on a plane, then have to do a complete other set of mods to make it nuclear capable, it just wouldn't have happened unless we were still fighting the Germans in late 45, maybe even 46.

Which is my point. If it was necessary, the situation leading up - in 42, 43, 44, - would have been radically different. A switch wouldn't have gone off on 7 May 45 indicating we needed to deliver a Mk II tomorrow. The entirety of the event leading up would have been entirely unrecognizable.

Silverplate would have been pursuing entirely different program goals, as would have Manhattan. Hap would have an entirely different set of exigences . Many of the issues you posit would have been resolved or sidestepped, as they had been in almost every other aspect of the war. As it was, things progressed as they did because we were winning in Europe. If we hadn't been, the entire prosecution of the war, resource allocation, strategic goals, everything would have changed.

The B-29 and its characteristics, would have been immaterial in the totality of the allies efforts that would have been radically changed from the history we know.

Which had politics not gotten in the way and it was allowed Pratt’s like Boeing wanted that would have been a huge step right off the bat, the other issue was it was one of the few planes they actually modified stepping backwards, which would have been interesting to see their answer for pressurization and loss of from being shot. We assumed that we could fly above the fighters, but Germany proved that wrong.

We actually sent a couple over to England, for more of a show, and that created the D series FW190, as a stop gap, and the TA152 as their answer. It’s been said that the D series were Germany’s answer to the 29, in anticipation of them being deployed to England, but the dates don’t line up, the 29’s sent over actually spent more time being worked on then flying.

Here are pictures of 29’s with Packards in them and those were part of the original Silverplate program, so yes we threw allot of ideas on it.

Posted: 1/1/2018 9:06:32 PM EDT

[#21]

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it just wouldn’t have happened unless we were still fighting the Germans in late 45, maybe even 46.

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Duh. That's the only scenario in which Berlin would've been nuked. The bomb wasn't ready before then. You're been arguing an early 45 scenario in which the Luftwaffe still had fuel. They already lost before we could nuke them.

Posted: 1/1/2018 9:27:42 PM EDT

[#22]

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I have a 1/18 scale Ausf D I’m converting to an Ausf Chttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/122245/5D7059BF-B6F8-4D12-90A2-030BE1656BBB-408261.JPG

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/122245/C809A6EC-1793-4D3D-BD07-AA6194432841-408263.JPG

One of these years I’ll actually complete it.

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Neat. @flpickupman Who made the original kit? I assume a lot of scratch building for detail do to the scale. I'm only familiar with 1/35 modeling.

Posted: 1/1/2018 10:36:48 PM EDT

[#23]

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Neat. @flpickupman Who made the original kit? I assume a lot of scratch building for detail do to the scale. I'm only familiar with 1/35 modeling.

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I have a 1/18 scale Ausf D I’m converting to an Ausf Chttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/122245/5D7059BF-B6F8-4D12-90A2-030BE1656BBB-408261.JPG

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/122245/C809A6EC-1793-4D3D-BD07-AA6194432841-408263.JPG

One of these years I’ll actually complete it.

Neat. @flpickupman Who made the original kit? I assume a lot of scratch building for detail do to the scale. I'm only familiar with 1/35 modeling.

A company called 21st Century Toys.

It’s a preassembled model, no longer in production. Company went out of business a while ago.

I’ve done some repaints, however, what you see above is about as far as I’ve dared to go. My scratchbuilding is clumsy for the most part. I also have a Late production Tiger I that’s about halfway through a conversion to Early. I’ve been stuck for nearly 10 years.

Edit: Some of my collection:

Posted: 1/1/2018 11:02:58 PM EDT

[#24]

Never heard of 21st, again if it wasn't 1/35 I just never paid attention. Some day I'll go bigger.
I have kits started thirty years ago That I'm still going to finish

I probably have twenty different variations of 250 and 251 SPWs waiting to be built

Posted: 1/2/2018 9:45:38 AM EDT

[#25]

I've got a bunch of the 21st century 1/18th German armor just sitting around. All new in the box. If one of you guys wants to buy it, pm me.

Posted: 1/2/2018 9:51:13 AM EDT

[#26]

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Quoted:

A company called 21st Century Toys.

It’s a preassembled model, no longer in production. Company went out of business a while ago.

I’ve done some repaints, however, what you see above is about as far as I’ve dared to go. My scratchbuilding is clumsy for the most part. I also have a Late production Tiger I that’s about halfway through a conversion to Early. I’ve been stuck for nearly 10 years.

Edit: Some of my collection:

https://s20.postimg.org/pfgvwy7cd/E00955_F3-8538-4_AE6-_A876-_CB2_A89_F90_CC0.jpg

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The molds have to be owned by somebody so I'm surprised they haven't been placed back in production.

Long story short on the company,they tied themselves entire!y to Walmart and Walmart killed them,kind of the Buell of toys. I never got into collecting them but they were cool. I kick myself for not getting some of their 1/32 kits when they were cheap

Posted: 1/2/2018 9:52:33 AM EDT

[#27]

unreliable. bad off road. useless in sand. looks nice on paper though.

Posted: 1/2/2018 9:54:09 AM EDT

[#28]

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Duh. That's the only scenario in which Berlin would've been nuked. The bomb wasn't ready before then. You're been arguing an early 45 scenario in which the Luftwaffe still had fuel. They already lost before we could nuke them.

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it just wouldn’t have happened unless we were still fighting the Germans in late 45, maybe even 46.

Duh. That's the only scenario in which Berlin would've been nuked. The bomb wasn't ready before then. You're been arguing an early 45 scenario in which the Luftwaffe still had fuel. They already lost before we could nuke them.

Some of our top generals wanted the atomic bomb for Berlin to counter Germany’s atomic bomb program. The Luftwaffe still had fuel, planes, and pilots for JG26, and JV44 for the defense of Berlin, they flew until their commanders told them to disband and get west or with the families if they wanted both units flew until May, and actually flew combat through April.

The problem was even when we hit Japan we still didn’t have a delivery program and honestly we didn’t until we had the B-29D, B-50, and B-36

Posted: 1/2/2018 10:42:13 AM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
The molds have to be owned by somebody so I'm surprised they haven't been placed back in production.

Long story short on the company,they tied themselves entire!y to Walmart and Walmart killed them,kind of the Buell of toys. I never got into collecting them but they were cool. I kick myself for not getting some of their 1/32 kits when they were cheap

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Quoted:

Quoted:

A company called 21st Century Toys.

It’s a preassembled model, no longer in production. Company went out of business a while ago.

I’ve done some repaints, however, what you see above is about as far as I’ve dared to go. My scratchbuilding is clumsy for the most part. I also have a Late production Tiger I that’s about halfway through a conversion to Early. I’ve been stuck for nearly 10 years.

Edit: Some of my collection:

https://s20.postimg.org/pfgvwy7cd/E00955_F3-8538-4_AE6-_A876-_CB2_A89_F90_CC0.jpg

The molds have to be owned by somebody so I'm surprised they haven't been placed back in production.

Long story short on the company,they tied themselves entire!y to Walmart and Walmart killed them,kind of the Buell of toys. I never got into collecting them but they were cool. I kick myself for not getting some of their 1/32 kits when they were cheap

JSI picked up a few. The Panther, for example. One or two other companies have picked up molds as well. There’s an unassembled Fw-190 kit being offered.

It’s been pretty piecemeal in the 1/18 scale world.

There’s a guy on the Small Scale Hq website (Pickelhaube) that has been making everything from gear to full blown kits. They can get pricey, but they’re well executed.

Posted: 1/2/2018 1:27:01 PM EDT

[#30]

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JSI picked up a few. The Panther, for example. One or two other companies have picked up molds as well. There’s an unassembled Fw-190 kit being offered.

It’s been pretty piecemeal in the 1/18 scale world.

There’s a guy on the Small Scale Hq website (Pickelhaube) that has been making everything from gear to full blown kits. They can get pricey, but they’re well executed.

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There are a few 190 kits, as well as a couple 109 both lay G and early K kits. They actually have werk numbers but the process while worth it, so high only the deepest pockets can buy and finish. It would be cool as shit to have a K4 or D9/13

Posted: 1/2/2018 1:29:59 PM EDT

[#31]

This thread inspired me to fire up Close Combat "A Bridge Too Far".

Posted: 1/2/2018 1:37:48 PM EDT

[#32]

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Ours were demonstrably better.

Powered front axle, non-interleaved road wheels, and a unitary band track instead of metal links.

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They weren't opposed to capturing one of ours-

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/armoured-vehicles/m3_halftrack/m3_halftrack-14.jpg

Ours were demonstrably better.

Powered front axle, non-interleaved road wheels, and a unitary band track instead of metal links.

THIS...

Israelis were still using M-3 & M-5 US Surplus Halftracks into the 70's...

The German halftracks designs were like all things German (over though, over designed, over complicated, overly expensive, overly difficult to make and overly difficult to maintain especially in the field)

Posted: 1/2/2018 1:39:18 PM EDT

[#33]

if I ever get lucky on a great deal..... or win the lottery, I will buy myself a few armored / tracked vehicles.. a Sherman, and prob a 1/2 track.... although id want something I could drive, so prob go with a American 1/2 track I could still get parts / tracks for from someplace like Israel...

german would be nice, but I doubt I could get parts for it.

for the people bitching about 1/2 tracks, and their effectiveness.... I disagree... at the time, ( wwII) half tracks were a lot cheaper than full track vehicles, and the armor was " good enough" for what they were designed for.. mostly for hauling troops, with secondary jobs as weapons platforms, and as tractors hauling trailers in the mud. ESPECIALLY good for use in muddy areas where trucks could not go, and tanks might be TOO heavy. the same arguments could be made towards the bradley today.. armor too thin, weapons too light, cant haul many troops... etc.. but in reality its a awesome vehicle, and does its job well.

Posted: 1/2/2018 1:43:23 PM EDT

[#34]

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I never knew B-29s were halftracks. Learn something new every day

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The B-36 almost was.

Posted: 1/2/2018 1:58:47 PM EDT

[#35]

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I'm not saying the Sd.Kfz. 251 is the best system in the world.
I think it was inferior going cross country to our halftrack which had a live front axle.
The live front axle, just like a M35 6x6 truck, makes a huge difference when you kick it in.

Regarding their usefulness, the only country I know which really stuck with the halftrack is Israel.
They seemed to really like them.

I'm just saying that on the German design you can steer with the tracks if needed.

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Guess since they were used to kill a lot of 'Nazis...

The Mechanical systems of the US Halftrack system was solid. Worked very well in the Conditions of the middle east (not a lot of Russian Bogs & Swamps)

The Israelis didn't use them as some sort of I.F.V. for which they were never designed by the US. They used the Battle Taxis to keep infantry across difficult terrain with the speed of Tank columns. The infantry were to dismount and do their thing on foot (as infantry should) when enemy contact was close.

Worked well for them for many many many years...

Posted: 1/2/2018 2:02:00 PM EDT

[#36]

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This thread inspired me to fire up Close Combat "A Bridge Too Far".

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Now THAT is some Retro Gaming...

Sucks the Allies infantry doesn't have integral A/T ability the Germans do with their PanzerFausts...

Wish I could fire up Steel Panthers again sometime... That is old school turn based board based "video wargaming" at it's retro-est...

Posted: 1/2/2018 2:03:55 PM EDT

[#37]

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Can someone tell me what the drum looking thing on the American half track is? Winch? Or?

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Probably an anti-ditch roller. Just a big roller on the front, would be my guess.

Posted: 1/2/2018 2:10:40 PM EDT

[#38]

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I had that model as a kid, I would love to find another.

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Didn't anyone else have this model as a kid?

https://www.modelcars.com/model-kit-zoom/revell-tom-daniels-rommels-rod.jpg

I had that model as a kid, I would love to find another.

been released for 2018

Posted: 1/2/2018 2:32:53 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
JSI picked up a few. The Panther, for example. One or two other companies have picked up molds as well. There’s an unassembled Fw-190 kit being offered.

It’s been pretty piecemeal in the 1/18 scale world.

There’s a guy on the Small Scale Hq website (Pickelhaube) that has been making everything from gear to full blown kits. They can get pricey, but they’re well executed.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

A company called 21st Century Toys.

It’s a preassembled model, no longer in production. Company went out of business a while ago.

I’ve done some repaints, however, what you see above is about as far as I’ve dared to go. My scratchbuilding is clumsy for the most part. I also have a Late production Tiger I that’s about halfway through a conversion to Early. I’ve been stuck for nearly 10 years.

Edit: Some of my collection:

https://s20.postimg.org/pfgvwy7cd/E00955_F3-8538-4_AE6-_A876-_CB2_A89_F90_CC0.jpg

The molds have to be owned by somebody so I'm surprised they haven't been placed back in production.

Long story short on the company,they tied themselves entire!y to Walmart and Walmart killed them,kind of the Buell of toys. I never got into collecting them but they were cool. I kick myself for not getting some of their 1/32 kits when they were cheap

JSI picked up a few. The Panther, for example. One or two other companies have picked up molds as well. There’s an unassembled Fw-190 kit being offered.

It’s been pretty piecemeal in the 1/18 scale world.

There’s a guy on the Small Scale Hq website (Pickelhaube) that has been making everything from gear to full blown kits. They can get pricey, but they’re well executed.

I still have a bunch of the WWII era 21st planes.

I used to travel a lot, and with the different paint schemes being distributed so unevenly I would buy them and resell on ebay. A lot of WM's clearanced them too, so for a year or so I had a pretty good side business going buying 21st planes on closeout and reselling on ebay.

I still have a couple of P47's, P38, P51, Spitfire, P40, ME109, FW190, and a Stuka. My grandfather ran a primary flight school during most of the war before going to B29's in '45, so I grew up inundated in books and models of WWII era planes.

Posted: 1/2/2018 2:53:23 PM EDT

[#40]

Yep. Talk about salad days.

Picked up a lot of my 1/18 stuff for $25 or less. Now I’m seeing NIB 251s going for over $100.

Posted: 1/2/2018 2:54:37 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/88366/Bundesarchiv_Berlin_Unter_den_Linden_Schuetzenpanzer251-406304.jpg
Anyone else think these were kinda neat looking, and ahead of their time? I remember as a kid and playing with WWII solder sets, thinking that the German half-tracks looked so much neater than their US counterparts.

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Nice use of sloped armor, but like most implements of war, the Germans not only could make enough of them to equip their military, but the machines they did make were over-engineered, costly in time and materials to make, and the ones they managed to produce were often prone to failure; not least by deliberate sabotage by slave laborers., and also by the Rush to production without adequate reliability testing.

There is scant point in having a Tiger tank if it breaks down, and so becomes a liability.

There is one thing that needs to be understood about German manufacturing: The Germans were ideologically, psychologically, and politically resistant to US-type mass-production methods. The Depression, to an extent, insulated the Germans from truly making the difficult transition to mass-production, as their ability to do so, and their market, were both limited.

The most important point is that mass-production was antithetical to traditional German manufacturing ideology. Speer had no end of serious trouble in instituting the beginnings of mass-production. Much of this came from innate resistance to change, but a good deal of it came from highly-placed SS officials, who had Hitler's ear.

The Germans were using the obviously inadequate panzer Mk II during the onset of the Russian invasion, and equally using equally inadequate Czech tanks during the same period.

There is much bloviating about German WW II "engineering", and in some instances, they were brilliant. The point remains that they lost. Had the Germans, pre-war whole-heartedly adopted mass-production techniques, they would have unquestionably had more, and better arms for their troops. Having had such, they might have knocked SovUnion out of the war at the first go. As it was, the Germans were overwhelmed by their opponents on many different levels, not the least of which was the inability of the Germans to produce adequate weapons, in the needed quantity.

Posted: 1/2/2018 2:55:17 PM EDT

[#42]

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Ours were demonstrably better.

Powered front axle, non-interleaved road wheels, and a unitary band track instead of metal links.

View Quote

This. Especially the non-interleaved wheels. Mud tended to get trapped in those which is why you don't see them anymore.

Posted: 1/2/2018 3:10:53 PM EDT

[#43]

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It combined the off road traction of a tracked vehicle with the ease of steering of a wheeled vehicle. Using the wheels to steer the vehicle allowed them to do away with the complex synchronized braking system tracked vehicles needed at that era. Any truck driver could drive a half track.

In comparison, here is how German tanks had to steer: It steered by outright braking one side or the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsodIneQGzI

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earlier model M113s steered by applying brakes on one side as well-takes about 1/2 an hour to learn to drive.

Posted: 1/2/2018 3:45:18 PM EDT

[#44]

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Quoted:
Probably an anti-ditch roller. Just a big roller on the front, would be my guess.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Can someone tell me what the drum looking thing on the American half track is? Winch? Or?

Probably an anti-ditch roller. Just a big roller on the front, would be my guess.

US Halftracks came with two different front end set ups.

Most had a Anti-Ditch Roller - if crossing a steep ditch, it prevented the front bumper from digging in.

A percentage (something like 20%) had a metal guard with a PTO powered winch.

BIGGER_HAMMER

Posted: 1/2/2018 3:47:42 PM EDT

[#45]

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Quoted:
This. Especially the non-interleaved wheels. Mud tended to get trapped in those which is why you don't see them anymore.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Ours were demonstrably better.

Powered front axle, non-interleaved road wheels, and a unitary band track instead of metal links.

This. Especially the non-interleaved wheels. Mud tended to get trapped in those which is why you don't see them anymore.

The band track really doesn't get enough credit. It was easier to change, much lighter, lower maintenance and more reliable.

Posted: 1/2/2018 4:18:11 PM EDT

[#46]

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The band track really doesn't get enough credit. It was easier to change, much lighter, lower maintenance and more reliable.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Ours were demonstrably better.

Powered front axle, non-interleaved road wheels, and a unitary band track instead of metal links.

This. Especially the non-interleaved wheels. Mud tended to get trapped in those which is why you don't see them anymore.

The band track really doesn't get enough credit. It was easier to change, much lighter, lower maintenance and more reliable.

Such features were one of the reasons why US tanks had FAR less down-time for maintenance than German tanks. The difference in maintenance periods between German and US Tanks is remarkable. IOW, most US tanks were ready to go, and a very significant number of German tanks were deadlined waiting for spare parts.

This is an aspect that superficial people ignore. As said before, a deadlined Tiger is a liability, not an asset.

I'm aware of the current misconception that Shermans were "Deathtraps". That belief is not at all correct. There were enough up-armorings and up-gunnings of the Sherman to make any flat statement almost meaningless. Read Zaloga's tank books for an education.

Posted: 1/2/2018 4:22:56 PM EDT

[#47]

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Now THAT is some Retro Gaming...

Sucks the Allies infantry doesn't have integral A/T ability the Germans do with their PanzerFausts...

Wish I could fire up Steel Panthers again sometime... That is old school turn based board based "video wargaming" at it's retro-est...

View Quote

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Camo_Workshop/MBT/MBT_page.html

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Camo_Workshop/WW2/WW2_page.html

Posted: 1/2/2018 4:32:29 PM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
It combined the off road traction of a tracked vehicle with the ease of steering of a wheeled vehicle. Using the wheels to steer the vehicle allowed them to do away with the complex synchronized braking system tracked vehicles needed at that era. Any truck driver could drive a half track.

In comparison, here is how German tanks had to steer: It steered by outright braking one side or the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsodIneQGzI

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Quoted:

Quoted:
what was the point of them? any advantage to have wheels on the front as opposed to just having tracks?

It combined the off road traction of a tracked vehicle with the ease of steering of a wheeled vehicle. Using the wheels to steer the vehicle allowed them to do away with the complex synchronized braking system tracked vehicles needed at that era. Any truck driver could drive a half track.

In comparison, here is how German tanks had to steer: It steered by outright braking one side or the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsodIneQGzI

More like Breaking one side or the other.

The shortage of critical alloys and machine tools due to Allied Bombing & blockade meant that the German steering gear boxes in the later heavy tanks were a critical weakpoint of their designs...

Posted: 1/2/2018 4:51:39 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/307202/8C3DC202-FBB3-44BF-BD7F-9F8E10DBC745-406361.JPG

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LOL I love that as kid before I saw the German stuff when I got older.

Posted: 1/2/2018 4:58:23 PM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:

Such features were one of the reasons why US tanks had FAR less down-time for maintenance than German tanks. The difference in maintenance periods between German and US Tanks is remarkable. IOW, most US tanks were ready to go, and a very significant number of German tanks were deadlined waiting for spare parts.

This is an aspect that superficial people ignore. As said before, a deadlined Tiger is a liability, not an asset.

I'm aware of the current misconception that Shermans were "Deathtraps". That belief is not at all correct. There were enough up-armorings and up-gunnings of the Sherman to make any flat statement almost meaningless. Read Zaloga's tank books for an education.

View Quote

An easy throwdown statistic, courtesy the research of @Manic_Moran is, of those who saw combat, 3% casualty rate for tankers versus 15% casualty rate for infantry. "You want a death trap? Carry a Garand." -MM

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - German half-tracks of WWII (Page 4 of 5)

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