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Posted: 12/1/2023 7:48:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 7:52:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So if my GF is on my account and we break up and I have her phone shut off I'm getting as a violent domestic abuser and the states strongmen will show up at my door? If you get red flagged, you WILL NEVER KNOW WHO IT WAS, it is sealed by the courts of who red flagged you. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 7:53:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Between that cunt and the cold weather, Michigan sounds horrible. 'tis 
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Posted: 12/1/2023 7:55:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 7:58:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I lived in Michigan, I would make it top priority to move out of the state. Why, so you could take your forum of government with you?  If one is not willing to stand and fight for ones rights in the state they live in, they sure aren't going to stand and fight for my right in my state. Stay where you cause we don't want you. That is pretty ignorant and completely untrue. Ever hear of a tactical retreat ? Some positions aren't savable. Your state has gotten redder. There has been an influx of people moving into Montana and Idaho as you know. Plenty of them are red voters. Would you rather they stayed away ? I think you're all missing his point. Sounds like he's saying if you aren't willing to fight for your state don't move to his and become the same deadweight that you were in your last state. Your point on tactical retreat is valid but it shouldn't be plan A. Why is there an assumption that people stuck in blue states aren't fighting ? Heck even just voting is fighting on a small level. If all someone does is move to a red state, and vote Republican, work a job and raise their families they wouldn't be dead weight. Who's making that assumption? Obviously the ones who stay are fighting. The ones who LEAVE are not. Doing all those things is fine and good until their new state is threatened by leftism then, "see ya!" Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:00:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People in Michigan vote for Democrats and then get mad when Democrats do democrat things. It’s not just a Michigan thing… |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:01:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. I believe you can't conceal carry in MI with out a recognized CPL. Pretty sure you can transport a handgun, unloaded, for any other purpose. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:02:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I lived in Michigan, I would make it top priority to move out of the state. Why, so you could take your forum of government with you? If one is not willing to stand and fight for ones rights in the state they live in, they sure aren't going to stand and fight for my right in my state. Stay where you cause we don't want you. That is pretty ignorant and completely untrue. Ever hear of a tactical retreat ? Some positions aren't savable. Your state has gotten redder. There has been an influx of people moving into Montana and Idaho as you know. Plenty of them are red voters. Would you rather they stayed away ? I think you're all missing his point. Sounds like he's saying if you aren't willing to fight for your state don't move to his and become the same deadweight that you were in your last state. Your point on tactical retreat is valid but it shouldn't be plan A. Why is there an assumption that people stuck in blue states aren't fighting ? Heck even just voting is fighting on a small level. If all someone does is move to a red state, and vote Republican, work a job and raise their families they wouldn't be dead weight. Who's making that assumption? Obviously the ones who stay are fighting. The ones who LEAVE are not. Doing all those things is fine and good until their new state is threatened by leftism then, "see ya!" Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. Do you really think there is any realistic chance of flipping states like Ca, Ny, Nj, or Illinois back ? Of course not. They would do a lot more good trying to help those purple states not turn blue. I understand Michigan isn't quite as blue as Ca, Ny, Ny, or Il. But I wouldn't blame someone for leaving either. You stay and you run the risk of getting caught up in the new laws and losing your freedom and/or your firearm rights. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:05:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you really think there is any realistic chance of flipping states like Ca, Ny, Nj, or Illinois back ? Of course not. They would do a lot more good trying to help those purple states not turn blue. I understand Michigan isn't quite as blue as Ca, Ny, Ny, or Il. But I wouldn't blame someone for leaving either. You stay and you run the risk of getting caught up in the new laws and losing your freedom and/or your firearm rights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I lived in Michigan, I would make it top priority to move out of the state. Why, so you could take your forum of government with you? If one is not willing to stand and fight for ones rights in the state they live in, they sure aren't going to stand and fight for my right in my state. Stay where you cause we don't want you. That is pretty ignorant and completely untrue. Ever hear of a tactical retreat ? Some positions aren't savable. Your state has gotten redder. There has been an influx of people moving into Montana and Idaho as you know. Plenty of them are red voters. Would you rather they stayed away ? I think you're all missing his point. Sounds like he's saying if you aren't willing to fight for your state don't move to his and become the same deadweight that you were in your last state. Your point on tactical retreat is valid but it shouldn't be plan A. Why is there an assumption that people stuck in blue states aren't fighting ? Heck even just voting is fighting on a small level. If all someone does is move to a red state, and vote Republican, work a job and raise their families they wouldn't be dead weight. Who's making that assumption? Obviously the ones who stay are fighting. The ones who LEAVE are not. Doing all those things is fine and good until their new state is threatened by leftism then, "see ya!" Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. Do you really think there is any realistic chance of flipping states like Ca, Ny, Nj, or Illinois back ? Of course not. They would do a lot more good trying to help those purple states not turn blue. I understand Michigan isn't quite as blue as Ca, Ny, Ny, or Il. But I wouldn't blame someone for leaving either. You stay and you run the risk of getting caught up in the new laws and losing your freedom and/or your firearm rights. I'm talking about MI though. MI isn't a lost cause despite how much some may say it is. If enough people buy into that notion, then it surely will be. The founders risked far more - if this is all I end up risking to fight for my family, friends and neighbor's rights, I'll consider myself blessed. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:07:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The whole state of Michigan has gone completely insane. Been insane for a while. Repubs are mostly rinos. However the law may be written it still has to go both ways for and against both men and women. So if a guy thinks she's about to divorce him, call the cops and accuse her first. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:09:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:09:33 PM EDT
[#12]
What's this broads problem anyhow?
Wasn't it just a few years ago Michigan gun owners took their firearms into the state house and had a friendly sit-in with lawmakers as a form of protest? |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:13:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm talking about MI though. MI isn't a lost cause despite how much some may say it is. If enough people buy into that notion, then it surely will be. The founders risked far more - if this is all I end up risking to fight for my family, friends and neighbor's rights, I'll consider myself blessed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I lived in Michigan, I would make it top priority to move out of the state. Why, so you could take your forum of government with you? If one is not willing to stand and fight for ones rights in the state they live in, they sure aren't going to stand and fight for my right in my state. Stay where you cause we don't want you. That is pretty ignorant and completely untrue. Ever hear of a tactical retreat ? Some positions aren't savable. Your state has gotten redder. There has been an influx of people moving into Montana and Idaho as you know. Plenty of them are red voters. Would you rather they stayed away ? I think you're all missing his point. Sounds like he's saying if you aren't willing to fight for your state don't move to his and become the same deadweight that you were in your last state. Your point on tactical retreat is valid but it shouldn't be plan A. Why is there an assumption that people stuck in blue states aren't fighting ? Heck even just voting is fighting on a small level. If all someone does is move to a red state, and vote Republican, work a job and raise their families they wouldn't be dead weight. Who's making that assumption? Obviously the ones who stay are fighting. The ones who LEAVE are not. Doing all those things is fine and good until their new state is threatened by leftism then, "see ya!" Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. Do you really think there is any realistic chance of flipping states like Ca, Ny, Nj, or Illinois back ? Of course not. They would do a lot more good trying to help those purple states not turn blue. I understand Michigan isn't quite as blue as Ca, Ny, Ny, or Il. But I wouldn't blame someone for leaving either. You stay and you run the risk of getting caught up in the new laws and losing your freedom and/or your firearm rights. I'm talking about MI though. MI isn't a lost cause despite how much some may say it is. If enough people buy into that notion, then it surely will be. The founders risked far more - if this is all I end up risking to fight for my family, friends and neighbor's rights, I'll consider myself blessed. I took it to mean a general comment about anyone moving from any blue state based in part to others related comments as well. I will agree with you Michigan isn't a complete lost cause though it doesn't look good and I don't think it is going to get better. But I hope I'm wrong. I still can't blame someone not wanting stay and risk getting caught up in the laws though. You only have one life, if you can live in freedom elsewhere its better then staying and getting a lifetime firearm ban because of a ridiculous stretch of these new domestic laws. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:13:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's this broads problem anyhow? Wasn't it just a few years ago Michigan gun owners took their firearms into the state house and had a friendly sit-in with lawmakers as a form of protest? Unfortunately they banned that, won't happen again. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:19:01 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. Constitutional carry is a recent phenomena - I'm sure MI would have come around too if not for 2022. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Permission to purchase hasn't been a thing in a while. Posession of an unregistered handgun is a civil infraction. I don't believe you can't transport a handgun to MI as a nonresident. For example, out of state college students are exempt from pistol registration if they are enrolled in MI. Again, if not for 2022, I believe MI would have come around to Constituional Carry. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. Stricter than Constitutional Carry but still not as strict as you think. Plus all of that crap was slowly being rolled back prior to 2022. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. Constitutional carry is a recent phenomena - I'm sure MI would have come around too if not for 2022. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Permission to purchase hasn't been a thing in a while. Posession of an unregistered handgun is a civil infraction. I don't believe you can't transport a handgun to MI as a nonresident. For example, out of state college students are exempt from pistol registration if they are enrolled in MI. Again, if not for 2022, I believe MI would have come around to Constituional Carry. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. Stricter than Constitutional Carry but still not as strict as you think. Plus all of that crap was slowly being rolled back prior to 2022. My replies in RED |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:29:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My replies in RED Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. Constitutional carry is a recent phenomena - I'm sure MI would have come around too if not for 2022. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Permission to purchase hasn't been a thing in a while. Posession of an unregistered handgun is a civil infraction. I don't believe you can't transport a handgun to MI as a nonresident. For example, out of state college students are exempt from pistol registration if they are enrolled in MI. Again, if not for 2022, I believe MI would have come around to Constituional Carry. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. Stricter than Constitutional Carry but still not as strict as you think. Plus all of that crap was slowly being rolled back prior to 2022. My replies in RED I'm glad some of that has been improved. It wasn't a mere infraction to possess an unregistered handgun in the past. I know there is still a registration requirement and I find that unacceptable but I'm glad at least the penalties regarding it are lessened. In the past it wasn't even legal to visit with a handgun unless you had a CPL. I'd like to know what the status is now, but I'll be honest I've had a hard time finding some of the relevant statutes in the past when I've looked to see what is going on in Michigan more recently. Their statute pages are a bit more disorganized and hard to find the relevant statutes compared to some states. Constitutional carry would have required a R governor and sadly that is out of the question now. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:30:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I took it to mean a general comment about anyone moving from any blue state based in part to others related comments as well. I will agree with you Michigan isn't a complete lost cause though it doesn't look good and I don't think it is going to get better. But I hope I'm wrong. I still can't blame someone not wanting stay and risk getting caught up in the laws though. You only have one life, if you can live in freedom elsewhere its better then staying and getting a lifetime firearm ban because of a ridiculous stretch of these new domestic laws. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I lived in Michigan, I would make it top priority to move out of the state. Why, so you could take your forum of government with you? If one is not willing to stand and fight for ones rights in the state they live in, they sure aren't going to stand and fight for my right in my state. Stay where you cause we don't want you. That is pretty ignorant and completely untrue. Ever hear of a tactical retreat ? Some positions aren't savable. Your state has gotten redder. There has been an influx of people moving into Montana and Idaho as you know. Plenty of them are red voters. Would you rather they stayed away ? I think you're all missing his point. Sounds like he's saying if you aren't willing to fight for your state don't move to his and become the same deadweight that you were in your last state. Your point on tactical retreat is valid but it shouldn't be plan A. Why is there an assumption that people stuck in blue states aren't fighting ? Heck even just voting is fighting on a small level. If all someone does is move to a red state, and vote Republican, work a job and raise their families they wouldn't be dead weight. Who's making that assumption? Obviously the ones who stay are fighting. The ones who LEAVE are not. Doing all those things is fine and good until their new state is threatened by leftism then, "see ya!" Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. Do you really think there is any realistic chance of flipping states like Ca, Ny, Nj, or Illinois back ? Of course not. They would do a lot more good trying to help those purple states not turn blue. I understand Michigan isn't quite as blue as Ca, Ny, Ny, or Il. But I wouldn't blame someone for leaving either. You stay and you run the risk of getting caught up in the new laws and losing your freedom and/or your firearm rights. I'm talking about MI though. MI isn't a lost cause despite how much some may say it is. If enough people buy into that notion, then it surely will be. The founders risked far more - if this is all I end up risking to fight for my family, friends and neighbor's rights, I'll consider myself blessed. I took it to mean a general comment about anyone moving from any blue state based in part to others related comments as well. I will agree with you Michigan isn't a complete lost cause though it doesn't look good and I don't think it is going to get better. But I hope I'm wrong. I still can't blame someone not wanting stay and risk getting caught up in the laws though. You only have one life, if you can live in freedom elsewhere its better then staying and getting a lifetime firearm ban because of a ridiculous stretch of these new domestic laws. It'll get better if people find their courage to fight and let Lansing know they won't tolerate tyrants. Righteous anger is in order and lots of it. I still think the other poster was referring to people who cut and run after a short period of time without putting up a fight. Can't speak for him directly but that's what I'm saying. You are right that we only have one life. I for one would rather spend it fighting so my children don't have too. Failing to act only passes the burden on to them. Carrying the burden for them, well that's a life well spent in my humble opinion. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:33:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It'll get better if people find their courage to fight and let Lansing know they won't tolerate tyrants. Righteous anger is in order and lots of it. I still think the other poster was referring to people who cut and run after a short period of time without putting up a fight. Can't speak for him directly but that's what I'm saying. You are right that we only have one life. I for one would rather spend it fighting so my children don't have too. Failing to act only passes the burden on to them. Carrying the burden for them, well that's a life well spent in my humble opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I lived in Michigan, I would make it top priority to move out of the state. Why, so you could take your forum of government with you? If one is not willing to stand and fight for ones rights in the state they live in, they sure aren't going to stand and fight for my right in my state. Stay where you cause we don't want you. That is pretty ignorant and completely untrue. Ever hear of a tactical retreat ? Some positions aren't savable. Your state has gotten redder. There has been an influx of people moving into Montana and Idaho as you know. Plenty of them are red voters. Would you rather they stayed away ? I think you're all missing his point. Sounds like he's saying if you aren't willing to fight for your state don't move to his and become the same deadweight that you were in your last state. Your point on tactical retreat is valid but it shouldn't be plan A. Why is there an assumption that people stuck in blue states aren't fighting ? Heck even just voting is fighting on a small level. If all someone does is move to a red state, and vote Republican, work a job and raise their families they wouldn't be dead weight. Who's making that assumption? Obviously the ones who stay are fighting. The ones who LEAVE are not. Doing all those things is fine and good until their new state is threatened by leftism then, "see ya!" Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. Do you really think there is any realistic chance of flipping states like Ca, Ny, Nj, or Illinois back ? Of course not. They would do a lot more good trying to help those purple states not turn blue. I understand Michigan isn't quite as blue as Ca, Ny, Ny, or Il. But I wouldn't blame someone for leaving either. You stay and you run the risk of getting caught up in the new laws and losing your freedom and/or your firearm rights. I'm talking about MI though. MI isn't a lost cause despite how much some may say it is. If enough people buy into that notion, then it surely will be. The founders risked far more - if this is all I end up risking to fight for my family, friends and neighbor's rights, I'll consider myself blessed. I took it to mean a general comment about anyone moving from any blue state based in part to others related comments as well. I will agree with you Michigan isn't a complete lost cause though it doesn't look good and I don't think it is going to get better. But I hope I'm wrong. I still can't blame someone not wanting stay and risk getting caught up in the laws though. You only have one life, if you can live in freedom elsewhere its better then staying and getting a lifetime firearm ban because of a ridiculous stretch of these new domestic laws. It'll get better if people find their courage to fight and let Lansing know they won't tolerate tyrants. Righteous anger is in order and lots of it. I still think the other poster was referring to people who cut and run after a short period of time without putting up a fight. Can't speak for him directly but that's what I'm saying. You are right that we only have one life. I for one would rather spend it fighting so my children don't have too. Failing to act only passes the burden on to them. Carrying the burden for them, well that's a life well spent in my humble opinion. I won't argue with that. There is different strategies of that, and in my opinion consolidating in places where we will be stronger is probably a better option and provide a better life for our kids but that is just my opinion the important thing I guess is that we both believe in fighting and we're on the same side. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:37:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm glad some of that has been improved. It wasn't a mere infraction to possess an unregistered handgun in the past. I know there is still a registration requirement and I find that unacceptable but I'm glad at least the penalties regarding it are lessened. In the past it wasn't even legal to visit with a handgun unless you had a CPL. I'd like to know what the status is now, but I'll be honest I've had a hard time finding some of the relevant statutes in the past when I've looked to see what is going on in Michigan more recently. Their statute pages are a bit more disorganized and hard to find the relevant statutes compared to some states. Constitutional carry would have required a R governor and sadly that is out of the question now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. Constitutional carry is a recent phenomena - I'm sure MI would have come around too if not for 2022. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Permission to purchase hasn't been a thing in a while. Posession of an unregistered handgun is a civil infraction. I don't believe you can't transport a handgun to MI as a nonresident. For example, out of state college students are exempt from pistol registration if they are enrolled in MI. Again, if not for 2022, I believe MI would have come around to Constituional Carry. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. Stricter than Constitutional Carry but still not as strict as you think. Plus all of that crap was slowly being rolled back prior to 2022. My replies in RED I'm glad some of that has been improved. It wasn't a mere infraction to possess an unregistered handgun in the past. I know there is still a registration requirement and I find that unacceptable but I'm glad at least the penalties regarding it are lessened. In the past it wasn't even legal to visit with a handgun unless you had a CPL. I'd like to know what the status is now, but I'll be honest I've had a hard time finding some of the relevant statutes in the past when I've looked to see what is going on in Michigan more recently. Their statute pages are a bit more disorganized and hard to find the relevant statutes compared to some states. Constitutional carry would have required a R governor and sadly that is out of the question now. Are you sure this isn't referring to carrying concealed in Michigan as a non resident. Because that would make sense based on the current statutes. I've lived places with less strict gun laws and I prefer it. I find MI's registry and lack of constituional carry unacceptable too. That's why I'd like to see it flipped and I'm willing to put some skin in the game. Whitmer and her ilk want us to leave so they can secure MI fate as a blue state. There's no bigger "fuck you" to them that I can think of than staying. But I'm stubborn  .
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:41:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I won't argue with that. There is different strategies of that, and in my opinion consolidating in places where we will be stronger is probably a better option and provide a better life for our kids but that is just my opinion the important thing I guess is that we both believe in fighting and we're on the same side. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I lived in Michigan, I would make it top priority to move out of the state. Why, so you could take your forum of government with you? If one is not willing to stand and fight for ones rights in the state they live in, they sure aren't going to stand and fight for my right in my state. Stay where you cause we don't want you. That is pretty ignorant and completely untrue. Ever hear of a tactical retreat ? Some positions aren't savable. Your state has gotten redder. There has been an influx of people moving into Montana and Idaho as you know. Plenty of them are red voters. Would you rather they stayed away ? I think you're all missing his point. Sounds like he's saying if you aren't willing to fight for your state don't move to his and become the same deadweight that you were in your last state. Your point on tactical retreat is valid but it shouldn't be plan A. Why is there an assumption that people stuck in blue states aren't fighting ? Heck even just voting is fighting on a small level. If all someone does is move to a red state, and vote Republican, work a job and raise their families they wouldn't be dead weight. Who's making that assumption? Obviously the ones who stay are fighting. The ones who LEAVE are not. Doing all those things is fine and good until their new state is threatened by leftism then, "see ya!" Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. Do you really think there is any realistic chance of flipping states like Ca, Ny, Nj, or Illinois back ? Of course not. They would do a lot more good trying to help those purple states not turn blue. I understand Michigan isn't quite as blue as Ca, Ny, Ny, or Il. But I wouldn't blame someone for leaving either. You stay and you run the risk of getting caught up in the new laws and losing your freedom and/or your firearm rights. I'm talking about MI though. MI isn't a lost cause despite how much some may say it is. If enough people buy into that notion, then it surely will be. The founders risked far more - if this is all I end up risking to fight for my family, friends and neighbor's rights, I'll consider myself blessed. I took it to mean a general comment about anyone moving from any blue state based in part to others related comments as well. I will agree with you Michigan isn't a complete lost cause though it doesn't look good and I don't think it is going to get better. But I hope I'm wrong. I still can't blame someone not wanting stay and risk getting caught up in the laws though. You only have one life, if you can live in freedom elsewhere its better then staying and getting a lifetime firearm ban because of a ridiculous stretch of these new domestic laws. It'll get better if people find their courage to fight and let Lansing know they won't tolerate tyrants. Righteous anger is in order and lots of it. I still think the other poster was referring to people who cut and run after a short period of time without putting up a fight. Can't speak for him directly but that's what I'm saying. You are right that we only have one life. I for one would rather spend it fighting so my children don't have too. Failing to act only passes the burden on to them. Carrying the burden for them, well that's a life well spent in my humble opinion. I won't argue with that. There is different strategies of that, and in my opinion consolidating in places where we will be stronger is probably a better option and provide a better life for our kids but that is just my opinion the important thing I guess is that we both believe in fighting and we're on the same side. ?? I often wish conversations on Arfcom didn't always start off so hostile since when carried out to their conclusion, they always seem to end like this. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:42:03 PM EDT
[#21]
The gun laws weren’t too bad, the pistol rules have always sucked though. I’m including having to get handgun permits for several folder AKs over the years and not being allowed to carry my wife’s pistol’s or vice versa. The change to private party sales is garbage though.
I’m of the opinion that as the democrats exercise their power they will continue to make laws that are all but impossible to repeal, I don’t see a conservative ever being governor again but gubernatorial politics always swung from moderate-left to moderate-right anyway. I don’t expect Michigan will be anything but blue moving forward. As for leaving, that was my choice. I spent most of my life in Michigan and half my life in the city of Flint and spent a small fortune in taxes to the state in decades of working. I don’t owe anyone a thing, I paid my dues. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:42:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you sure this isn't referring to carrying concealed in Michigan as a non resident. Because that would make sense based on the current statutes. I've lived places with less strict gun laws and I prefer it. I find MI registry lack of constituional carry unacceptable too. That's why I'd like to see it flipped and I'm willing to put some skin in the game. Whitner and her ilk want us to leave so they can secure MI fate as a blue state. There's no bigger "fuck you" to them that I can think of than staying. But I'm stubborn .Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. Constitutional carry is a recent phenomena - I'm sure MI would have come around too if not for 2022. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Permission to purchase hasn't been a thing in a while. Posession of an unregistered handgun is a civil infraction. I don't believe you can't transport a handgun to MI as a nonresident. For example, out of state college students are exempt from pistol registration if they are enrolled in MI. Again, if not for 2022, I believe MI would have come around to Constituional Carry. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. Stricter than Constitutional Carry but still not as strict as you think. Plus all of that crap was slowly being rolled back prior to 2022. My replies in RED I'm glad some of that has been improved. It wasn't a mere infraction to possess an unregistered handgun in the past. I know there is still a registration requirement and I find that unacceptable but I'm glad at least the penalties regarding it are lessened. In the past it wasn't even legal to visit with a handgun unless you had a CPL. I'd like to know what the status is now, but I'll be honest I've had a hard time finding some of the relevant statutes in the past when I've looked to see what is going on in Michigan more recently. Their statute pages are a bit more disorganized and hard to find the relevant statutes compared to some states. Constitutional carry would have required a R governor and sadly that is out of the question now. Are you sure this isn't referring to carrying concealed in Michigan as a non resident. Because that would make sense based on the current statutes. I've lived places with less strict gun laws and I prefer it. I find MI registry lack of constituional carry unacceptable too. That's why I'd like to see it flipped and I'm willing to put some skin in the game. Whitner and her ilk want us to leave so they can secure MI fate as a blue state. There's no bigger "fuck you" to them that I can think of than staying. But I'm stubborn .No I am not. It was illegal to transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle and if you were not a resident I don't believe there was a way to register. It was a felony just to be up visiting from Wisconsin with an unloaded cased handgun in the trunk. Again if you had a recognized CCW from another state then you'd be OK because you could possess ( or carry ) a handgun under reciprocity. But if no CCW ( which Wisconsin didn't have at the time ) no such luck. There may have been an exemption for hunting, but if you just wanted it to go shooting or have for possible self protection not happening. Again this may have changed, I'm guessing that is highly possible based on some of the other downgrading of charges regarding the handgun laws you describe. But that is the why it was approximately 15 years ago. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:43:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ?? I often wish conversations on Arfcom didn't always start off so hostile since when carried out to their conclusion, they always seem to end like this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I lived in Michigan, I would make it top priority to move out of the state. Why, so you could take your forum of government with you? If one is not willing to stand and fight for ones rights in the state they live in, they sure aren't going to stand and fight for my right in my state. Stay where you cause we don't want you. That is pretty ignorant and completely untrue. Ever hear of a tactical retreat ? Some positions aren't savable. Your state has gotten redder. There has been an influx of people moving into Montana and Idaho as you know. Plenty of them are red voters. Would you rather they stayed away ? I think you're all missing his point. Sounds like he's saying if you aren't willing to fight for your state don't move to his and become the same deadweight that you were in your last state. Your point on tactical retreat is valid but it shouldn't be plan A. Why is there an assumption that people stuck in blue states aren't fighting ? Heck even just voting is fighting on a small level. If all someone does is move to a red state, and vote Republican, work a job and raise their families they wouldn't be dead weight. Who's making that assumption? Obviously the ones who stay are fighting. The ones who LEAVE are not. Doing all those things is fine and good until their new state is threatened by leftism then, "see ya!" Not necessarily. Plenty of people stay and suffer and don't fight at all. As for the second part is enough people would move we would shore up the purple and red states so they aren't threatened. I don't get the hate for conservative people that move from a blue state to a red state, its like you want people to suffer forever just because of where they were born. You really think anyone is going to fix California or New York ? No they're just going to suffer their whole life. Sure - nothing's absolute but you can't fight at all if you leave, nor do you have the incentive. If a state is already red, they should stay vigilant and not become complacent. Conservatives in purple states should start fightong now before they turn blue. Conservatives in blue states should fight to flip their state back. Unfortunately we never have the stomach to take the fight to them. No hate - I just don't respect people who cut and run. BTW - "forever" is a bit dubious. It's been a yr since MI flipped and like I said before, it was moving in many good directions before that. Do you really think there is any realistic chance of flipping states like Ca, Ny, Nj, or Illinois back ? Of course not. They would do a lot more good trying to help those purple states not turn blue. I understand Michigan isn't quite as blue as Ca, Ny, Ny, or Il. But I wouldn't blame someone for leaving either. You stay and you run the risk of getting caught up in the new laws and losing your freedom and/or your firearm rights. I'm talking about MI though. MI isn't a lost cause despite how much some may say it is. If enough people buy into that notion, then it surely will be. The founders risked far more - if this is all I end up risking to fight for my family, friends and neighbor's rights, I'll consider myself blessed. I took it to mean a general comment about anyone moving from any blue state based in part to others related comments as well. I will agree with you Michigan isn't a complete lost cause though it doesn't look good and I don't think it is going to get better. But I hope I'm wrong. I still can't blame someone not wanting stay and risk getting caught up in the laws though. You only have one life, if you can live in freedom elsewhere its better then staying and getting a lifetime firearm ban because of a ridiculous stretch of these new domestic laws. It'll get better if people find their courage to fight and let Lansing know they won't tolerate tyrants. Righteous anger is in order and lots of it. I still think the other poster was referring to people who cut and run after a short period of time without putting up a fight. Can't speak for him directly but that's what I'm saying. You are right that we only have one life. I for one would rather spend it fighting so my children don't have too. Failing to act only passes the burden on to them. Carrying the burden for them, well that's a life well spent in my humble opinion. I won't argue with that. There is different strategies of that, and in my opinion consolidating in places where we will be stronger is probably a better option and provide a better life for our kids but that is just my opinion the important thing I guess is that we both believe in fighting and we're on the same side. ?? I often wish conversations on Arfcom didn't always start off so hostile since when carried out to their conclusion, they always seem to end like this. I try to conduct myself in a reasonable and polite manner for most of the conversations I have here. No real reason not too. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:47:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read that as physically turning it off, as in to prevent a phone call ? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What the new laws do, is ensure you don't EVER want to fund a woman's cell bill, because if you stop paying/cut off her service (even if you've separated), the new laws can construe that as falling under 'domestic violence'/intimidation of an SO/former-SO. Please explain how you believe this law could be construed to make not paying for someone's service fall under domestic violence. Shutting off the other's telecommunications service. I read that as physically turning it off, as in to prevent a phone call ? I would assume that would have been worded "shutting off the other's telecommunications device", since the various new laws have the word "service", and "device" in various sections. Using the word "Service", implies canceling their cellphone service, or not continuing to pay for it etc. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:47:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's only a few million illegals there, leave groceries and water on your front porch so they don't break into your home, it will be fine. Nice ride by the way. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That state is lost why anyone still lives there is beyond me. Texas isn't ?  It's only a few million illegals there, leave groceries and water on your front porch so they don't break into your home, it will be fine. Nice ride by the way. I lived most of my life in Texas, and several years in Michigan. Trust me, there's more to fear from the natives here than the illegals in the southwest. Yes, it's an issue, but not one that makes Texas unsafe in a general sense. I'd much rather walk the streets of Dallas than those of Detroit. Anyway - you seem like a nice guy, and I'm not trying to insult you by bashing your state just for the sake of it (I know these things can feel personal). I genuinely don't like it here. Some of my reasons are objective and others subjective. All things considered, I lived much better in Texas, and would return immediately if I could. I would also move to any of a dozen other states I've never lived in, just based on the objective things I don't like here (such as the absolutely horrid weather). Thanks - that's an old pic from when I first bought it. She's well into a long restomodificaton and has changed color since then. She's almost done *he says for the fourth year in a row.*
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:48:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No I am not. It was illegal to transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle and if you were not a resident I don't believe there was a way to register. It was a felony just to be up visiting from Wisconsin with an unloaded cased handgun in the trunk. Again if you had a recognized CCW from another state then you'd be OK because you could possess ( or carry ) a handgun under reciprocity. But if no CCW ( which Wisconsin didn't have at the time ) no such luck. There may have been an exemption for hunting, but if you just wanted it to go shooting or have for possible self protection not happening. Again this may have changed, I'm guessing that is highly possible based on some of the other downgrading of charges regarding the handgun laws you describe. But that is the why it was approximately 15 years ago. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. Constitutional carry is a recent phenomena - I'm sure MI would have come around too if not for 2022. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Permission to purchase hasn't been a thing in a while. Posession of an unregistered handgun is a civil infraction. I don't believe you can't transport a handgun to MI as a nonresident. For example, out of state college students are exempt from pistol registration if they are enrolled in MI. Again, if not for 2022, I believe MI would have come around to Constituional Carry. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. Stricter than Constitutional Carry but still not as strict as you think. Plus all of that crap was slowly being rolled back prior to 2022. My replies in RED I'm glad some of that has been improved. It wasn't a mere infraction to possess an unregistered handgun in the past. I know there is still a registration requirement and I find that unacceptable but I'm glad at least the penalties regarding it are lessened. In the past it wasn't even legal to visit with a handgun unless you had a CPL. I'd like to know what the status is now, but I'll be honest I've had a hard time finding some of the relevant statutes in the past when I've looked to see what is going on in Michigan more recently. Their statute pages are a bit more disorganized and hard to find the relevant statutes compared to some states. Constitutional carry would have required a R governor and sadly that is out of the question now. Are you sure this isn't referring to carrying concealed in Michigan as a non resident. Because that would make sense based on the current statutes. I've lived places with less strict gun laws and I prefer it. I find MI registry lack of constituional carry unacceptable too. That's why I'd like to see it flipped and I'm willing to put some skin in the game. Whitner and her ilk want us to leave so they can secure MI fate as a blue state. There's no bigger "fuck you" to them that I can think of than staying. But I'm stubborn .No I am not. It was illegal to transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle and if you were not a resident I don't believe there was a way to register. It was a felony just to be up visiting from Wisconsin with an unloaded cased handgun in the trunk. Again if you had a recognized CCW from another state then you'd be OK because you could possess ( or carry ) a handgun under reciprocity. But if no CCW ( which Wisconsin didn't have at the time ) no such luck. There may have been an exemption for hunting, but if you just wanted it to go shooting or have for possible self protection not happening. Again this may have changed, I'm guessing that is highly possible based on some of the other downgrading of charges regarding the handgun laws you describe. But that is the why it was approximately 15 years ago. Hmmm...that doesn't sound like it's the case anymore but I could be wrong. MI firearms laws are muddied as hell. I do know non resident college students are exempt from registration. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:49:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That state is lost why anyone still lives there is beyond me. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:50:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would assume that would have been worded "shutting off the other's telecommunications device". Using the word "Service", implies canceling their cellphone service, or not continuing to pay for it etc. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What the new laws do, is ensure you don't EVER want to fund a woman's cell bill, because if you stop paying/cut off her service (even if you've separated), the new laws can construe that as falling under 'domestic violence'/intimidation of an SO/former-SO. Please explain how you believe this law could be construed to make not paying for someone's service fall under domestic violence. Shutting off the other's telecommunications service. I read that as physically turning it off, as in to prevent a phone call ? I would assume that would have been worded "shutting off the other's telecommunications device". Using the word "Service", implies canceling their cellphone service, or not continuing to pay for it etc. A logical person would assume it means to unlawfully cancel their service by logging into their account or fraudulently in some way. It is ludicrous to obligate them to pay for someone else's service forever. But like many vague laws, it is worded like that could be the case. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:51:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So if my GF is on my account and we break up and I have her phone shut off I'm getting red flagged as a violent domestic abuser and the states strongmen will show up at my door? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Gretchen Whitmer to Michigan men: Don't annoy your ex or enter her empty ice shanty without her permission or the cops will confiscate all your firearms and ammunition Shutting off the other's telecommunications service. If Whitmer signs these bills into law, judges will be able to use EPOs to immediately confiscate firearms from someone determined to be a threat to themselves or others without trial and with limited opportunity for defense. Fees for service of documents related to these orders are prohibited, making it easy and free for anyone to petition for an Extreme Protection Order. https://www.lapeercountytribune.com/whitmer-signs-extreme-gunlaws So if my GF is on my account and we break up and I have her phone shut off I'm getting red flagged as a violent domestic abuser and the states strongmen will show up at my door? If she's a vindictive b####, it sure reads like they're giving her that option. "Hey, now that we're no longer together, you need to get your own phone service/account". "HEY, I told you a month ago, you need to setup your own account/service for your phone. I'm not going to keep paying it". "It's been 3 months since I told you. Screw it" "WTF..." |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:54:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmmm...that doesn't sound like it's the case anymore but I could be wrong. MI firearms laws are muddied as hell. I do know non resident college students are exempt from registration. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I sense a whole lot of Michigan men are going to start liking the idea of moving to Ohio. Only the weak ones. I guess the same would apply to the pilgrims coming to America or the millions of immigrants that came to America in the early 1900s then wouldn't it ? All of those examples faced generations of persecution. MI flipped blue in 2022. Everyone needs to cool their tits. It is a bit more then just 2022. They have had two democrat senators for decades, and voted R for president once in the last thirty or so years. It is definitely a D leaning state though had a R governor on occasion and isn't yet completely solid blue like CA or NJ. But we only have one life to live, and with all the new laws do you really blame someone not wanting to suffer under them just because the state hasn't been suffering for generations ? I'm sure that will be great consolation for anyone who stays who gets caught up in the new laws. BTW, their firearm laws have sucked for a very long time it isn't anything new. In the past 10 years MI has... - Expanded the areas CPLs can legally carry. - Allowed open carry. - Went from may to shall issue for CPLs. - Allowed open carry for CPL holders in pistol free zones. - Reduced penalties for CPL and pistol free infractions. - Legislated more civil protections for citizens found justified in legal self defense (basically can't be sued if criminally cleared). - Legalized SBRs and suppressors (late to the party but still did it). The only gun laws that sucked in MI up until 2022 were the pistol registry and pistol free zones (which were slowly being walked back in terms of criminal penalties. Even the registry is a civil infaction for not registring. Ask any MI gun owner and they will tell you guns laws were continuously getting better and fewer over the past 25 yrs, until 2022. As for politics in general. MI always flipped between D and R governors every 8 or so years. Despite our two D senators, the state House and Senate has always been predominately R. This blue wave in MI is a recent trend. It's weak willed residence with an over active normalcy bias that allowed us to get to this point and it's those same people who will jump ship and do the same thing to any state they move to. Going from may issue to shall issue wasn't in the last ten years, it was before that it was pre 2007 as I think I got my Michigan CPL in 2007 under the new shall issue laws. Was definitely either 2007 or 2006 so the shall issue law was before that. I'm aware and glad it is getting better but I do not consider it a gun friendly state because of the handgun registry/permit laws and the laws regarding carry and transport of handguns if you don't have a CPL. Unless its changed a few years ago it was illegal to even bring a handgun into Michigan visiting if you didn't have a recognized CPL. It isn't so bad for rifles but they have a lot of very strict laws regarding handguns and their use compared to other states. That's probably right - but it also kinda makes my point that is is a recent trend and that MI had been shifting in the right direction for a while. What are the strict handgun laws you are referring to? You can't carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL but that's about it and I know that's not a MI one off. Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. Constitutional carry is a recent phenomena - I'm sure MI would have come around too if not for 2022. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Permission to purchase hasn't been a thing in a while. Posession of an unregistered handgun is a civil infraction. I don't believe you can't transport a handgun to MI as a nonresident. For example, out of state college students are exempt from pistol registration if they are enrolled in MI. Again, if not for 2022, I believe MI would have come around to Constituional Carry. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. Stricter than Constitutional Carry but still not as strict as you think. Plus all of that crap was slowly being rolled back prior to 2022. My replies in RED I'm glad some of that has been improved. It wasn't a mere infraction to possess an unregistered handgun in the past. I know there is still a registration requirement and I find that unacceptable but I'm glad at least the penalties regarding it are lessened. In the past it wasn't even legal to visit with a handgun unless you had a CPL. I'd like to know what the status is now, but I'll be honest I've had a hard time finding some of the relevant statutes in the past when I've looked to see what is going on in Michigan more recently. Their statute pages are a bit more disorganized and hard to find the relevant statutes compared to some states. Constitutional carry would have required a R governor and sadly that is out of the question now. Are you sure this isn't referring to carrying concealed in Michigan as a non resident. Because that would make sense based on the current statutes. I've lived places with less strict gun laws and I prefer it. I find MI registry lack of constituional carry unacceptable too. That's why I'd like to see it flipped and I'm willing to put some skin in the game. Whitner and her ilk want us to leave so they can secure MI fate as a blue state. There's no bigger "fuck you" to them that I can think of than staying. But I'm stubborn .No I am not. It was illegal to transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle and if you were not a resident I don't believe there was a way to register. It was a felony just to be up visiting from Wisconsin with an unloaded cased handgun in the trunk. Again if you had a recognized CCW from another state then you'd be OK because you could possess ( or carry ) a handgun under reciprocity. But if no CCW ( which Wisconsin didn't have at the time ) no such luck. There may have been an exemption for hunting, but if you just wanted it to go shooting or have for possible self protection not happening. Again this may have changed, I'm guessing that is highly possible based on some of the other downgrading of charges regarding the handgun laws you describe. But that is the why it was approximately 15 years ago. Hmmm...that doesn't sound like it's the case anymore but I could be wrong. MI firearms laws are muddied as hell. I do know non resident college students are exempt from registration. Like I said I find laws interesting and I am generally pretty good at understanding them so I've tried to check into some of this but Michigan has made some of these regulations hard to find. I know a lot of it has gotten better since I lived there but I'm unsure of exact some of the specifics. Used to have go to the sheriffs office and get a permit every time you wanted to buy a handgun and then bring it back within ten days to register but I know they have streamlined the registration process somewhat. I don't think college students were exempt then but honestly I have no idea. I would bet that is a recent change as well. They were really strict with handguns decades ago especially when it was still may issue. Michigan has always felt like a wannable little brother to NY to me. Its unfortunate the redistricting allowed them to get full control of the state. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 8:54:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ice shanty? Ice shanty is something you pull behind to look cool. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 9:05:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A logical person would assume it means to unlawfully cancel their service by logging into their account or fraudulently in some way. It is ludicrous to obligate them to pay for someone else's service forever. But like many vague laws, it is worded like that could be the case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What the new laws do, is ensure you don't EVER want to fund a woman's cell bill, because if you stop paying/cut off her service (even if you've separated), the new laws can construe that as falling under 'domestic violence'/intimidation of an SO/former-SO. Please explain how you believe this law could be construed to make not paying for someone's service fall under domestic violence. Shutting off the other's telecommunications service. I read that as physically turning it off, as in to prevent a phone call ? I would assume that would have been worded "shutting off the other's telecommunications device". Using the word "Service", implies canceling their cellphone service, or not continuing to pay for it etc. A logical person would assume it means to unlawfully cancel their service by logging into their account or fraudulently in some way. It is ludicrous to obligate them to pay for someone else's service forever. But like many vague laws, it is worded like that could be the case. And therein lies the crux of the matter. Once the law is on the books, I wouldn't trust that some vindictive women wouldn't try using that against their ex, and I wouldn't trust someone ruling on it who doesn't GAF about personal rights, to NOT screw the guy over. We already know how rulings in divorces in general, tend to go. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 9:09:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: is one of the listed categories. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What the new laws do, is ensure you don't EVER want to fund a woman's cell bill, because if you stop paying/cut off her service (even if you've separated), the new laws can construe that as falling under 'domestic violence'/intimidation of an SO/former-SO. Please explain how you believe this law could be construed to make not paying for someone's service fall under domestic violence. Shutting off the other's telecommunications service. The words "shutting off" don't appear in the law in question. You've got to read the law itself, not a media article designed to sway your opinion. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 9:11:50 PM EDT
[#34]
And it turned out that the kidnapping plot was a fed op against some retards…
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Posted: 12/1/2023 9:20:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The words "shutting off" don't appear in the law in question. You've got to read the law itself, not a media article designed to sway your opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What the new laws do, is ensure you don't EVER want to fund a woman's cell bill, because if you stop paying/cut off her service (even if you've separated), the new laws can construe that as falling under 'domestic violence'/intimidation of an SO/former-SO. Please explain how you believe this law could be construed to make not paying for someone's service fall under domestic violence. Shutting off the other's telecommunications service. The words "shutting off" don't appear in the law in question. You've got to read the law itself, not a media article designed to sway your opinion. Agreed. Do you have a link to the law ? |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 9:23:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So if my GF is on my account and we break up and I have her phone shut off I'm getting red flagged as a violent domestic abuser and the states strongmen will show up at my door? If she "feels" abused, yes. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 9:31:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well considering that more then half the country has constitutional carry now I'd consider no handgun in a vehicle without a permit to be unacceptably strict. That isn't the case in more then half the country. The laws I'm referring to are the fact you need to register all handguns with the state and get permission to purchase, can't transport an unregistered handgun in a vehicle ( used to be a felony, may have been downgraded with the reduced penalties you were talking about ) this is also how you can't visit the state with one unless you have a recognized CPL, unlicensed CCW is a felony, again when more then half the country doesn't even require a permit I consider a life altering felony charge for exercising your right to carry incredibly strict being more like New York then a free state. Again the long gun laws used to not be terrible though I think they are now with the ending of private sales but the handgun laws have always been strict. No permission to purchase needed if buying from gun store. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 9:33:06 PM EDT
[#38]
This bullshit of moving out of these controlled states is what is killing this country. Either be a man and stand for your principles or just join the other team, because that is what you are doing by default. Every man in that state needs to just shut it down and go to the capital and gridlock the state. She has a big mouth and needs it filled with regret. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 9:38:46 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How did she get re-elected? ETA: How did the whole legislature get elected? We are doomed as a country. The same way Biden will be re-elected. Indoctrination of the youth, women, minorities and the LGBTQWTFBBQ people. Libs created a culture of hate and victims and made the people in the center all the way to the right the villains. States are flipping Red - Purple - Blue by the Social engineering they created. Many kids are very different from their parents and grandparents. Inevitable at this point. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 10:22:49 PM EDT
[#40]
The democrat-communists are horny as teenagers watching porn to get some sort of federal red flag laws. Imagine the power to be able to just go to any lawful gun owner's home and confiscate everything they have on a whim. The thought brings the left to epic orgasm. It would be the ultimate weapon in the hands of the tyrants who can't understand why the Constitution still exists at all. They would march to the National Archives if they could, tear it out of its protective case, and rip it up on the steps of Congress. Every moment they can't do that eats at their soulless, reptilian scales. It's their life's work to end every right and freedom we have, and as violently as possible. Except abortion. The endless darkness in them loves that "right" and will let the people keep it. Everything else will be on the chopping block.
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Posted: 12/1/2023 10:31:51 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I lived most of my life in Texas, and several years in Michigan. Trust me, there's more to fear from the natives here than the illegals in the southwest. Yes, it's an issue, but not one that makes Texas unsafe in a general sense. I'd much rather walk the streets of Dallas than those of Detroit. Anyway - you seem like a nice guy, and I'm not trying to insult you by bashing your state just for the sake of it (I know these things can feel personal). I genuinely don't like it here. Some of my reasons are objective and others subjective. All things considered, I lived much better in Texas, and would return immediately if I could. I would also move to any of a dozen other states I've never lived in, just based on the objective things I don't like here (such as the absolutely horrid weather). Thanks - that's an old pic from when I first bought it. She's well into a long restomodificaton and has changed color since then. She's almost done *he says for the fourth year in a row.* Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That state is lost why anyone still lives there is beyond me. Texas isn't ? It's only a few million illegals there, leave groceries and water on your front porch so they don't break into your home, it will be fine. Nice ride by the way. I lived most of my life in Texas, and several years in Michigan. Trust me, there's more to fear from the natives here than the illegals in the southwest. Yes, it's an issue, but not one that makes Texas unsafe in a general sense. I'd much rather walk the streets of Dallas than those of Detroit. Anyway - you seem like a nice guy, and I'm not trying to insult you by bashing your state just for the sake of it (I know these things can feel personal). I genuinely don't like it here. Some of my reasons are objective and others subjective. All things considered, I lived much better in Texas, and would return immediately if I could. I would also move to any of a dozen other states I've never lived in, just based on the objective things I don't like here (such as the absolutely horrid weather). Thanks - that's an old pic from when I first bought it. She's well into a long restomodificaton and has changed color since then. She's almost done *he says for the fourth year in a row.* I've lived most of my life in MI and about a year in Texas. I've always tried to avoid driving and living in shit holes. That said the cartels bring violence and pain to a level the inner city gangs couldn't even imagine. |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 10:37:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck her and fuck those idiots that installed her |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 11:41:12 PM EDT
[#43]
These corrupt and evil politicians control, the legislative judicial and executive branches of government along with their friends in the media
Power, corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely We are headed down the slippery slope guys |
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Posted: 12/1/2023 11:46:30 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's this broads problem anyhow? Wasn't it just a few years ago Michigan gun owners took their firearms into the state house and had a friendly sit-in with lawmakers as a form of protest? Far right "patriots/terrorists" decided that her mask mandate was too much and conspired to kidnap and kill her. Between that, various militias, klan and the past OKC bombers the far right keeps shitting the bed here. Oxford shooting really hurt the gun cause in Lansing as well. |
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Posted: 12/2/2023 12:58:00 AM EDT
[#45]
If you live near a large town in Michigan, you can see and feel the change and decline. The local media no longer have public comment sections where people could counter "the narrative", lawlessness is becoming rampant, and suburbanites don't want to go downtown anymore. Michigan's GOP shows no signs of repairing itself.
As for leaving, anyone who has lived through sixty or more Michigan winters has the right to move to someplace warm and sunny. Although, Indiana and Ohio are starting to look good, if someone wants to live within a day's drive of friends or family in Michigan. Michigan is losing population and will continue to do so, which is too bad. Michigan turning blue will just make that happen faster. |
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Posted: 12/2/2023 12:59:04 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed. Do you have a link to the law ? https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/Senate/pdf/2023-SEBS-0528.pdf |
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Posted: 12/3/2023 4:28:12 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you live near a large town in Michigan, you can see and feel the change and decline. The local media no longer have public comment sections where people could counter "the narrative", lawlessness is becoming rampant, and suburbanites don't want to go downtown anymore. Michigan's GOP shows no signs of repairing itself. As for leaving, anyone who has lived through sixty or more Michigan winters has the right to move to someplace warm and sunny. Although, Indiana and Ohio are starting to look good, if someone wants to live within a day's drive of friends or family in Michigan. Michigan is losing population and will continue to do so, which is too bad. Michigan turning blue will just make that happen faster. Did you live in or around the metro Detroit area in the 70's-90's? It's a hell of a lot better now than it was. Every media outlet has comments enabled on every social media platform. Suburbanites are still crowding downtown, even more so with the entertainment district. I was just down in Corktown this afternoon and ran into people for Howell, Dearborn, Wyandotte, South Lyon, and Grosse Isle. But you're 100% right about the GOP here. They're circling the drain. I have no desire to leave due to the weather, but I would like the GOP to stop throwing away elections so I can stay. |
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Posted: 12/3/2023 4:50:25 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How did she get re-elected? ETA: How did the whole legislature get elected? We are doomed as a country. Quote HistoryQuoted: How did she get re-elected? ETA: How did the whole legislature get elected? We are doomed as a country. This was the most complete answer in the thread: Quoted: Weed and abortion played a role, to be sure. But they also: Passed legislation LAST election (when Republicans had the legislature) that redrew legislative districts. County by county, anything not in a few select urban areas is solid red. Yet in 2020 all those red counties somehow elected Democrat reps and senators. Weird.... There were several candidates that polled well even in Detroit that potentially could have beat Whitmer, including former Detroit police chief James Craig. Coincidently, almost all of them were found to have fraudulent signatures on their petitions, which disqualified them from running. So the only candidate left was Tudor Dixon....a relatively unknown, inexperienced candidate with no real source of funding and who {gasp} got endorsed by Trump. A large number of "Republicans" just couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Trump-endorsed candidate. I know several people who either didn't vote or wasted their vote on some other nobody candidate because of this. Our news media is solidly blue. The newspaper in the OP is one of the most right-sounding articles I've seen recently. Even in my area which is solid red, the local news papers and news stations are all bleeding heart liberals. During election season there was a near total media blackout on any messaging coming from the right. The GOP in Michigan is a joke. In my lifetime they have never once put up a solid conservative candidate. They basically refused to help Dixon. Un-inspiring, milqtoast right-leaning nerds is what we get. At best you get Rick Snyder who did a decent job on the financial side of running the state and repaired a lot of the damage Granholm did, he wouldn't sign any real conservative agenda legislation, like eliminating our pistol registry, even though we had all 3 houses. They basically feel this way: "we don't like it when the dems force through legislation advancing their agenda when they're in power, so it would be hypocritical of us to do so when we're in power, so we'll take the high road and make sure everything we do has bipartisan support." You can only blame weed and abortion so many times. At some point the rest of these issues have to be addressed. But you forget to mention that Democrats literally funded the most extreme Republicans in their primaries, ensuring that the most defeatable candidates went to the general (and lost). Coincidentally (or not), these candidates were, by and large, the Trump picks. https://nypost.com/2022/09/12/democrats-spend-53m-to-boost-far-right-gop-candidates/ Be aware that given their success in 2022, they will surely repeat this plan again in 2024. ETA: then there also shitbirds like John James, who ran and was elected as a conservative, but quickly abandoned his principles once he reached D.C. |
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Posted: 12/3/2023 5:48:12 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This was the most complete answer in the thread: But you forget to mention that Democrats literally funded the most extreme Republicans in their primaries, ensuring that the most defeatable candidates went to the general (and lost). Coincidentally (or not), these candidates were, by and large, the Trump picks. https://nypost.com/2022/09/12/democrats-spend-53m-to-boost-far-right-gop-candidates/ Be aware that given their success in 2022, they will surely repeat this plan again in 2024. ETA: then there also shitbirds like John James, who ran and was elected as a conservative, but quickly abandoned his principles once he reached D.C. Which solid red districts flipped? How did James abandon his principles ones he reached DC? I do agree though, Tudor "no exceptions" Dixon was a piece of shit that sealed our fate. |
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Posted: 12/3/2023 8:27:02 AM EDT
[#50]
They may have cheated but MI votes D most of the time. The dems are playing at a higher level then the Republicans nationally at the moment. Last MI did a state wide redistrict that gave the dems a huge advantage I'm not shire if the republicans can overcome that ever.
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