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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:32:17 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: <-- FFL My ATF IOI told me exactly the same thing that DogtownTom is telling you now when we had our initial interview during the licensing process, because that's how federal firearms laws work. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property. Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft?  You don't know many rednecks do you? That logic would not fly with them. Reads like bullshit to most of us. Glad I'll never be in need of your "services." Are you holding that concept?  <-- FFL My ATF IOI told me exactly the same thing that DogtownTom is telling you now when we had our initial interview during the licensing process, because that's how federal firearms laws work. How laws work is one thing. The condescending attitude with a smiley is another. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:42:31 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just because you are an ffl does not mean you have the legal right to deprive someone of their personal possessions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Just because you are an ffl does not mean you have the legal right to deprive someone of their personal possessions. Please don't post again until you've read ATF regulations and federal law.  Per those regulations an FFL CANNOT transfer a firearm without a Form 4473. As the OP is getting a NEW firearm (he's having the receiver replaced) a Form 4473 and NICS is required. If it was simple gunsmithing (fixing the OP's firearm) it would not. So, yeah, an FFL can hold your firearm (that you paid for and own) UNTIL you complete and sign the 4473 and pass NICS. That's how a lawful transfer of possession occurs. No local or state LE, no local or state judge has jurisdiction over federal firearms laws. If the gun was already owned by them, they do not have to fill out another 4473 to take possession after work was done. Ownership has nothing to do with anything. You also can not keep possession of a firearm that someone else has paid for if you choose not to do buisness with them. You must either transfer it to another ffl or return it to the merchant that sent it to you. That firearm does not belong to you.. Again, such transfer must comply with federal law. I described what is required. The post I responded to: Quoted: It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property. says jack shit about the lawful transfer of a firearm. Being that the OP IS NOT CURRENTLY even in that state, there is no means by which that firearm can be lawfully transferred to him. OP AIN'T THERE TO COMPLETE THE 4473 MAN! You can also not keep a firearm if you are a gunsmith until it is abandoned and you have followed the law and actually sent out stratified letters in trying to reclaim the money for the service you provided. Tell us more about "stratified letters". This should be good. There is also a certain time limit that must pass before it is considered abandoned before such actions can be taken. True. You left out the part where a gunsmith can retain possession until he is paid for his services. Thats Op is clearly not in any of these categories. Yes, he is. It's a receiver being replaced.....meaning the OP is getting a different firearm than what he transferred to the FFL. Requires a 4473/NICS. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:44:32 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had plenty of firearms replaced under warranty by manufacturers that shipped directly to my door. No new 4473, no FFL and no NICS. Signed for it via FedEx Express and opened the box with my new serial number pistol/rifle. Then they are breaking the law. I have a rifle at PSA getting Warranty repaired and they specifically told me that if they were able to repair the rifle, it will be sent straight back to me. If they end up replacing the rifle, it has to go through an FFL due to being a new serial numbered rifle |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:44:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You made a deal to do work for me and give be back my shit. I'm old, hurt a lot and give zero fucks. I'll COC your fucking everything if you think you are going to fuck me. Still holding onto the concept I'm going to be the bigger loser here? You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:45:59 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I feel sorry for your customers. I feel sorry for those with GD level reading comprehension. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:47:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Report it stolen?
So you may end up with it afterwards when it pops back up |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:48:22 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I supplied the complete rifle and the replacement receiver. The original rifle had a receiver that had been re-welded together sometime in the past. Research on such receivers indicated it’s either completely safe or will blow up and wipe out a small village. I figured it would be safer to get a complete receiver and swap them out. You would come under the gunsmithing exemption. Meaning no 4473 would be required when the repair is completed and the firearm returned to you. If you have someone go pick it up for you....they'll have to complete a 4473 and pass NICS. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:49:53 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had plenty of firearms replaced under warranty by manufacturers that shipped directly to my door. No new 4473, no FFL and no NICS. Signed for it via FedEx Express and opened the box with my new serial number pistol/rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just because you are an ffl does not mean you have the legal right to deprive someone of their personal possessions. If the gun was already owned by them, they do not have to fill out another 4473 to take possession after work was done. You also can not keep possession of a firearm that someone else has paid for if you choose not to do buisness with them. You must either transfer it to another ffl or return it to the merchant that sent it to you. That firearm does not belong to you.. You can also not keep a firearm if you are a gunsmith until it is abandoned and you have followed the law and actually sent out stratified letters in trying to reclaim the money for the service you provided. There is also a certain time limit that must pass before it is considered abandoned before such actions can be taken. Op is clearly not in any of these categories. This does not apply in this situation. If the gunsmith replaced the receiver, it is now a different firearm serial number. In order for the customer to receive the firearm back from the gunsmith, he will need to complete a Form 4473 and pass the background check as if he were purchasing a brand new firearm from any gun shop. I've had plenty of firearms replaced under warranty by manufacturers that shipped directly to my door. No new 4473, no FFL and no NICS. Signed for it via FedEx Express and opened the box with my new serial number pistol/rifle. That's an exemption under federal law & ATF regs. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:52:20 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As I suspected and this is why a 4473 is not needed. This is why op would owe nothing but what the shop quoted for the work done and they can not confiscate the property. So to the ffl that thinks he could deprive the owner of their property, they are duly mistaken and can be charged with theft by conversion.. Quote HistoryQuoted: As I suspected and this is why a 4473 is not needed. This is why op would owe nothing but what the shop quoted for the work done and they can not confiscate the property. So to the ffl that thinks he could deprive the owner of their property, they are duly mistaken and can be charged with theft by conversion.. Again, don't be a dipshit and read what I wrote. DogtownTom:....I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. If you fill out that form....you get your gun. Amazing how that happens every day. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:54:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryYeah, try reading that. Conversion is a civil matter. Theft is criminal. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 11:56:20 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. That's morally theft. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? Yes. That's morally theft. I hope your lack of reading comprehension is because English isn't your first language. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:05:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not giving him an opportunity to pay for services or transferring their firearm back is theft. Quote HistoryQuoted: Not giving him an opportunity to pay for services or transferring their firearm back is theft. At any time since the OP discovered the gun store was out of business he could have visited the owner or had a friend or local LE do a "welfare check". It's possible the OP's FFL is dead or sick. It's possible he was shut down by ATF. Since the OP doesn't know, we don't know and all the "ermagerd its theft" bullshit is a bit premature. 1) call attorney 2) call ATF 3) police report, with detailed timeline of events and situation Really? 1) You advise hiring an attorney at this point? Over a firearm that may be worth $1500? 2) Calling ATF may help, but unless the dealer has had his FFL revoked they won't get involved in civil disputes. It may scare the FFL into resolving the situation. 3) Filing a police report before contacting the FFL seems a bit premature. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:08:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't know many rednecks do you? That logic would not fly with them. Reads like bullshit to most of us. Glad I'll never be in need of your "services." Are you holding that concept? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property. Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? You don't know many rednecks do you? That logic would not fly with them. Reads like bullshit to most of us. Glad I'll never be in need of your "services." Are you holding that concept? Rednecks has nothing to do with it. While you may not understand the logic of "You aren't getting your gun until you fill out the Form 4473 and pass NICS"........literally every FFL in the country will take the same position. Because some numbnuts doesn't understand that, doesn't mean its wrong. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:12:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. I can't make you transfer it I can surely make you wish you had |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:15:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then they are breaking the law. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've had plenty of firearms replaced under warranty by manufacturers that shipped directly to my door. No new 4473, no FFL and no NICS. Signed for it via FedEx Express and opened the box with my new serial number pistol/rifle. Then they are breaking the law. No, they weren't. Federal law and ATF regulations clearly allow the direct return of a repaired OR REPLACEMENT firearm to the person who sent it for gunsmithing or repair. Says so right here: § 478.124 Firearms transaction record. (a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received. I have a rifle at PSA getting Warranty repaired and they specifically told me that if they were able to repair the rifle, it will be sent straight back to me. If they end up replacing the rifle, it has to go through an FFL due to being a new serial numbered rifle Sometimes company policy is more strict than federal law. PSA isn't the only manufacturer to return a replacement to an FFL. Some states prohibit the direct return of a repaired or replacement firearm as well. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:17:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Atf will tell you its a civil matter and small claims court.
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:22:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't make you transfer it I can surely make you wish you had Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. I can't make you transfer it I can surely make you wish you had Tell us how often you threaten FFL's to transfer a firearm without you completing a Form 4473 and NICS. This should be funny. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:30:43 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? Yes. You are given temporary custody of that firearm for a limited purpose. You can't have a transferable machine gun shipped to you and just keep it because it's cool by refusing to make yourself available to do the paperwork. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:40:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You made a deal to do work for me and give be back my shit. I'm old, hurt a lot and give zero fucks. I'll COC your fucking everything if you think you are going to fuck me. Still holding onto the concept I'm going to be the bigger loser here? You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. And are you going to duck phone calls so that you never have to transfer? That's theft. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:43:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell us how often you threaten FFL's to transfer a firearm without you completing a Form 4473 and NICS. This should be funny. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. I can't make you transfer it I can surely make you wish you had Tell us how often you threaten FFL's to transfer a firearm without you completing a Form 4473 and NICS. This should be funny. There is no 4473 required. OP supplied the weapon and the receiver. This is basic gunsmithing. Reading is fundamental. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:49:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. You are given temporary custody of that firearm for a limited purpose. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? Yes. You are given temporary custody of that firearm for a limited purpose. An FFL cannot transfer a firearm in violation of federal law period. Whatever you think "temporary custody" or "limited purpose" means is irrelevant as nether term is used in any federal firearms law or ATF regulation. "I can lawfully deprive" the owner of a firearm because federal law requires an FFL to follow ATF regulations regarding the lawful transfer of possession. Again, that means the buyer completes a Form 4473 and NICS. If he passes NICS he can take possession. If he is delayed, he cannot until his status changes to proceed or after the Brady date. If denied, HE WILL NEVER be able to take possession of his firearm. (unless he successfully wins a NICS appeal) Again, the FFL is lawfully depriving you of your firearm because federal law says he has to. You can't have a transferable machine gun shipped to you and just keep it because it's cool by refusing to make yourself available to do the paperwork. No shit. Whether its a transferable MG or a Hi Point pistol its the same situation. Some of ya'll seem to think FFL's make $$$$$ by sitting on transfers. We don't make a penny until you come and fill out that 4473/NICS, pay your transfer fee and go home with your gun. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:51:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An FFL cannot transfer a firearm in violation of federal No shit. Whether its a transferable MG or a Hi Point pistol its the same situation. Some of ya'll seem to think FFL's make $$$$$ by sitting on transfers. We don't make a penny until you come and fill out that 4473/NICS, pay your transfer fee and go home with your gun. Or until you steal the gun by ducking the owners phone calls. And again...there is no 4473 required because there is no transfer. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:55:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, they weren't. Federal law and ATF regulations clearly allow the direct return of a repaired OR REPLACEMENT firearm to the person who sent it for gunsmithing or repair. Says so right here: Sometimes company policy is more strict than federal law. PSA isn't the only manufacturer to return a replacement to an FFL. Some states prohibit the direct return of a repaired or replacement firearm as well. Good to know, I’ve always been told otherwise. Thanks |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 12:59:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And are you going to duck phone calls so that you never have to transfer? That's theft. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You made a deal to do work for me and give be back my shit. I'm old, hurt a lot and give zero fucks. I'll COC your fucking everything if you think you are going to fuck me. Still holding onto the concept I'm going to be the bigger loser here? You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. And are you going to duck phone calls so that you never have to transfer? That's theft. What gives you that idea?  Nothing I wrote says anything about ducking phone calls or not operating in a businesslike manner. I do 1,800-2,000 Title I transfers a year. Every customer gets a pickup email within an hour of me opening his shipment. If I sat on transfers I would be sitting on transfers, my house isn't that big. Fifteen years ago I had to come up with a storage fee policy for people that wouldn't come pick up their gun within a month. Every Title I gun, every silencer, SBR, MG, SBS thats in my possession takes up space and cost me to insure. I want them out as soon as they can go. And they can't go until the transfer complies with federal law. If you have information that disagrees, then post it. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:00:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sooner rather than later. Time is not your friend. Yes, right now. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:01:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then they are breaking the law. I have a rifle at PSA getting Warranty repaired and they specifically told me that if they were able to repair the rifle, it will be sent straight back to me. If they end up replacing the rifle, it has to go through an FFL due to being a new serial numbered rifle Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've had plenty of firearms replaced under warranty by manufacturers that shipped directly to my door. No new 4473, no FFL and no NICS. Signed for it via FedEx Express and opened the box with my new serial number pistol/rifle. Then they are breaking the law. I have a rifle at PSA getting Warranty repaired and they specifically told me that if they were able to repair the rifle, it will be sent straight back to me. If they end up replacing the rifle, it has to go through an FFL due to being a new serial numbered rifle I think this states otherwise. Form 4473 shall not be required to record disposition of a like replacement firearm when such firearm is delivered by a licensee to the person from whom the malfunctioning or damaged firearm was received, provided such disposition is recorded in the licensee’s permanent records. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1974-20-disposition-replacement-firearms/download It is held, therefore, that a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition of a replacement firearm of the same kind and type where such a firearm is delivered by a licensee to the person from whom the malfunctioning or damaged firearm was received. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:03:36 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What gives you that idea? Nothing I wrote says anything about ducking phone calls or not operating in a businesslike manner. I do 1,800-2,000 Title I transfers a year. Every customer gets a pickup email within an hour of me opening his shipment. If I sat on transfers I would be sitting on transfers, my house isn't that big. Fifteen years ago I had to come up with a storage fee policy for people that wouldn't come pick up their gun within a month. Every Title I gun, every silencer, SBR, MG, SBS thats in my possession takes up space and cost me to insure. I want them out as soon as they can go. And they can't go until the transfer complies with federal law. If you have information that disagrees, then post it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You made a deal to do work for me and give be back my shit. I'm old, hurt a lot and give zero fucks. I'll COC your fucking everything if you think you are going to fuck me. Still holding onto the concept I'm going to be the bigger loser here? You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. And are you going to duck phone calls so that you never have to transfer? That's theft. What gives you that idea? Nothing I wrote says anything about ducking phone calls or not operating in a businesslike manner. I do 1,800-2,000 Title I transfers a year. Every customer gets a pickup email within an hour of me opening his shipment. If I sat on transfers I would be sitting on transfers, my house isn't that big. Fifteen years ago I had to come up with a storage fee policy for people that wouldn't come pick up their gun within a month. Every Title I gun, every silencer, SBR, MG, SBS thats in my possession takes up space and cost me to insure. I want them out as soon as they can go. And they can't go until the transfer complies with federal law. If you have information that disagrees, then post it.  Quoted: Yes it is. I'm an FFL, meaning I can lawfully deprive you of something you own as long as I want. You aren't getting your gun until you fillout the Form 4473 and pass NICS. For gunsmithing, you pay me before I return the firearm. Still holding to the concept it's theft? |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:06:00 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What gives you that idea? Nothing I wrote says anything about ducking phone calls or not operating in a businesslike manner. I do 1,800-2,000 Title I transfers a year. Every customer gets a pickup email within an hour of me opening his shipment. If I sat on transfers I would be sitting on transfers, my house isn't that big. Fifteen years ago I had to come up with a storage fee policy for people that wouldn't come pick up their gun within a month. Every Title I gun, every silencer, SBR, MG, SBS thats in my possession takes up space and cost me to insure. I want them out as soon as they can go. And they can't go until the transfer complies with federal law. If you have information that disagrees, then post it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You made a deal to do work for me and give be back my shit. I'm old, hurt a lot and give zero fucks. I'll COC your fucking everything if you think you are going to fuck me. Still holding onto the concept I'm going to be the bigger loser here? You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. And are you going to duck phone calls so that you never have to transfer? That's theft. What gives you that idea? Nothing I wrote says anything about ducking phone calls or not operating in a businesslike manner. I do 1,800-2,000 Title I transfers a year. Every customer gets a pickup email within an hour of me opening his shipment. If I sat on transfers I would be sitting on transfers, my house isn't that big. Fifteen years ago I had to come up with a storage fee policy for people that wouldn't come pick up their gun within a month. Every Title I gun, every silencer, SBR, MG, SBS thats in my possession takes up space and cost me to insure. I want them out as soon as they can go. And they can't go until the transfer complies with federal law. If you have information that disagrees, then post it. Because that's what this thread is about. A business owner is ducking phone calls with requests to return a person's property that is in for gunsmithing and then you came and started talking about how you can deprive someone of their private property. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:08:47 PM EDT
[#29]
I loaned my truck to my neighbor to run some errands for me and he won’t bring it back?
Is it theft? |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:09:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe because people are literally taking at face value what you wrote. Reading that entire post makes their head hurt. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:24:13 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because that's what this thread is about. A business owner is ducking phone calls with requests to return a person's property that is in for gunsmithing Quote HistoryQuoted: Because that's what this thread is about. A business owner is ducking phone calls with requests to return a person's property that is in for gunsmithing Thats your assumption, not based on facts. Yes, reading is fundamental. The FFL may be dead, sick or had his FFL revoked. He could be sitting in jail. No. One. Knows. Until the OP finds out whats going on it isn't theft. It isn't conversion. and then you came and started talking about how you can deprive someone of their private property. Context Sunshine. Again.........my comment was in response to posts by Krombompulos_Michael: "Not if he reports the gun as stolen and has it entered in NCIC." and "It’s not a false report if the owner is depriving him of his property." OP HAS NOT BEEN DEPRIVED OF ANYTHING AT THIS POINT !!! He just hasn't been able to make contact with his gunsmith. OP isn't currently in the same state as the gunsmith. He couldn't go pick it up today if the gunsmith wanted him to! There's a reason why I wrote "Name the shop. It won't hurt his business." in my first post. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:41:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Act fast with whatever you do. I lost a rare scope, a Crown marked AJACK 4x90, for my Swedish M/41B sniper rifle because they guy suddenly closed his scope repair company down due to medical reasons and the guy that he chose to sell of the business sold off my scope and all of the other scopes, equipment, small parts and other things he had for the business. The guy didn't even try to send back people's property. The guy eventually stopped responding to any forms of communication. I tried to be nice and I shouldn't have. I haven't been able to find a replacement so I popped on a more modern Zeiss 6x and called it a day.
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:52:38 PM EDT
[#33]
Happened to me with an AK build. Sent this well known builder a new parts kit and he went belly up in early 2000's. I remained cordial and keep up with emails. Eventually I got my AK back and he completed it minus the furniture. I felt fortunate because many did not. He lived in another state so emails was all I could do plus contacting local authorities.
Hope it works out OP. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:53:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Consult a lawyer, OP. Please stop relying on GD's amateur ambulance chasers to help you solve a legal problem. Outside of "consult a lawyer," the only good advice I've heard in this thread is "knock on the shop owner's door and ask for your M1 back" and maybe "call the ATF." He can do that. And by the time done with lawyer fees, be out both the original Garand, as well as the replacement Garand h'e going to have to buy anyway. But if he gets lucky, he might reciver it - after spending enough lawyer fees to have just bought another one. Frankly, I'd go the direct route - and RFN with reaching out. Lots of calls. Obviously the business line is dicinnected and ignored now - so try harder. and personal visits. Don't assume FFL is rubbing his hands in glee and stealing the Garand is actually All Part Of The Plan. So be nice - at first at least. Also, if working out of state (which is a mystery because you don't list your state. Making answering this harder), I can only guess that's for some good pay. Which means you probably can just buy another one. Basically, you just got hit a loss. It's life. Try to get it back, and then give up and just replace it. Try to report it as stolen if you can, to get the SN into the system, and you might eventually get it back. Don't know if you actually will. There's a guy selling Garands in EE forum right now, that ain't moving even at $1600. They aren't that rare. Worth about $1200, or less - really. Legal fees can exceed that quickly. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 1:57:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At any time since the OP discovered the gun store was out of business he could have visited the owner or had a friend or local LE do a "welfare check". It's possible the OP's FFL is dead or sick. It's possible he was shut down by ATF. Since the OP doesn't know, we don't know and all the "ermagerd its theft" bullshit is a bit premature. Really? 1) You advise hiring an attorney at this point? Over a firearm that may be worth $1500? 2) Calling ATF may help, but unless the dealer has had his FFL revoked they won't get involved in civil disputes. It may scare the FFL into resolving the situation. 3) Filing a police report before contacting the FFL seems a bit premature. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not giving him an opportunity to pay for services or transferring their firearm back is theft. At any time since the OP discovered the gun store was out of business he could have visited the owner or had a friend or local LE do a "welfare check". It's possible the OP's FFL is dead or sick. It's possible he was shut down by ATF. Since the OP doesn't know, we don't know and all the "ermagerd its theft" bullshit is a bit premature. 1) call attorney 2) call ATF 3) police report, with detailed timeline of events and situation Really? 1) You advise hiring an attorney at this point? Over a firearm that may be worth $1500? 2) Calling ATF may help, but unless the dealer has had his FFL revoked they won't get involved in civil disputes. It may scare the FFL into resolving the situation. 3) Filing a police report before contacting the FFL seems a bit premature. Absolutely. I’d push his shit in. I have the time, and I have the money. You think like an FFL with your “they won’t do anything” attitude. Really? Try me. Fuck thieves. |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 8:31:58 AM EDT
[#36]
Has the OP ever mentioned the state so we can figure at least time zone it's in? There is somebody here that could help him while he's on travel.
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Posted: 10/23/2023 8:45:21 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no 4473 required. OP supplied the weapon and the receiver. This is basic gunsmithing. Reading is fundamental. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You think a Karen worries me more than ATF? I'll hold your gun until I can lawfully transfer. I can't make you transfer it I can surely make you wish you had Tell us how often you threaten FFL's to transfer a firearm without you completing a Form 4473 and NICS. This should be funny. There is no 4473 required. OP supplied the weapon and the receiver. This is basic gunsmithing. Reading is fundamental. No "transfer" needed because OP already owned the replacement receiver. He may have had to do a 4473 when he bought it, unless private sale, but it's not like the dealer is furnishing the receiver. It is simply a "repair", not a "replacement". |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 9:01:32 AM EDT
[#38]
I've seen this same situation happen a handful of times since the 1980s.
Here is what I would do: - write the owner(s) a letter (mail it certified to the business address and/or to the owner's home address) stating that if you do not get your gun within 5 business days of them receiving the letter, you will meet with local LE and file a theft by deception report. Also let them know that you will contact BATFE and let them know of the situation as there are federal laws regarding theft of a firearm (dealers can be charged also). It could be that there was some serious personal issue with owner and he has not been able to take care of closing the business properly. If his license is no longer valid, BATFE will arrange a transfer to another dealer if neccessary, they will not keep your gun unless there is a legal issue with it. In one case I remember, the owner went down to the local ATF office and picked up his gun. |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 1:31:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has the OP ever mentioned the state so we can figure at least time zone it's in? There is somebody here that could help him while he's on travel. No. OP could also call around to other FFL's close to the one that's closed. We gossip like old women so one of them might know why the shop shut down. Heck, if the FFL died one of them may be handling the shop's inventory. |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 1:48:38 PM EDT
[#40]
I had a suppressor dealer go quiet on me. I got his information on the internet and showed up to his house. Got me can and left. plug his info into spokeo website.
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Posted: 10/23/2023 6:20:39 PM EDT
[#41]
State of residence is Washington state. I did email the ATF, here’s their reply:
“Under the assumption that you've reached out to them and they're not responding to you, I recommend looking the business up here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/listing-federal-firearms-licensees and using the associated phone number to attempt to contact them. If that is unsuccessful there is nothing at the federal level we could do, as no federal law would necessarily been broken. However, I would check with your state attorney general office to see if there is any recourse you can take. Thanks Seattle Field Division” From the RUMINT I’ve gathered, this was not an ATF shutdown. With the current AWB in the state, there wasn’t enough cash flow to keep the business open. Which I can understand. But the ghosting is really what’s pissing me off. |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 6:23:25 PM EDT
[#42]
Washington AG's office would likely be delighted to kick in his door.
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Posted: 10/23/2023 6:26:06 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Washington AG's office would likely be delighted to kick in his door. As pissed as I am about the rifle, I’d prefer to avoid that. State AG is a jackass and I’d prefer to not give him more to use against us. |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 6:31:07 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I loaned my truck to my neighbor to run some errands for me and he won’t bring it back? Is it theft? the legal charge would vary by state. possibly not 'theft'. i had my car stolen once. i testified in court against the thief. one of the questions they asked was 'did you ever give Mr Dirtbag permission to use your car?' of course the answer was NO. but it had to be established. because if I HAD -- in that state -- he would have been charged differently or possibly found 'not guilty'. ymmv |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 6:31:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, filing a false police report is the way to go. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Report it stolen and fuck them up Yeah, filing a false police report is the way to go. If OP has made every opportunity to give them the chance to do the right thing, then f them I’d consider it stolen as well |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 6:37:19 PM EDT
[#46]
I'll say this, this thread has taught me a great deal about people and FFL's. None of it good.
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Posted: 10/23/2023 6:42:29 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Happened to a family member. Lost two nice rifles. Business went bankrupt, stock disappeared and no one cared afterwards. Sucks OP. Same happened to me around 1995.i lost a 12g SxS coach gun. |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 6:51:16 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would definitely talk to that gunsmith alone and give him a single chance to do you right. After that I would ensure he receives additional expense. Careful. You could end up a felon and lose the rest of your guns. |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 7:26:40 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But the ghosting is really what’s pissing me off. What do you mean by "ghosting"? In your OP you said they are "refusing communication"......what do you mean by that? Is their phone disconnected? If not, have you left messages on voicemail and they just haven't returned your call? Did you try email? Have you had anyone visit their storefront to see if they have a "Sorry we closed, contact Bubba for information" Why will you not reveal the name of the store? You have at least six FFL's in this thread trying to help. |
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Posted: 10/23/2023 7:45:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you mean by "ghosting"? In your OP you said they are "refusing communication"......what do you mean by that? Is their phone disconnected? If not, have you left messages on voicemail and they just haven't returned your call? Did you try email? Have you had anyone visit their storefront to see if they have a "Sorry we closed, contact Bubba for information" Why will you not reveal the name of the store? You have at least six FFL's in this thread trying to help. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: But the ghosting is really what’s pissing me off. What do you mean by "ghosting"? In your OP you said they are "refusing communication"......what do you mean by that? Is their phone disconnected? If not, have you left messages on voicemail and they just haven't returned your call? Did you try email? Have you had anyone visit their storefront to see if they have a "Sorry we closed, contact Bubba for information" Why will you not reveal the name of the store? You have at least six FFL's in this thread trying to help. Quoted: To answer, I’ve called, texted and messaged their business and owner on Facebook. No reply yet. |
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