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Posted: 7/10/2014 7:31:59 PM EST
[#1]
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What's normal, the way someone who regularly shoots a Glock and expects all others to be the same? My USP has the biggest slide stop of them all, and I shoot it the same way as I've done with my M&P's. It's the shooter, not the gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Another shooter holds down the slide stop (at 4:44). Why do manufacturers do this. Facepalm. Because that's where the slide stop belongs. Where it doesn't function because it's in the way of a normal grip? No. USP slide stop is much further forward than the VP9 slide stop. Consider that the VP9 slide stop is in virtually the same location as the tab on the safety lever of a USP. Quoted:
Nothing normal about an improper grip. Thumbs forward, that's been the recommended grip since the 80's (or earlier), is improper? Where do you suggest that a pistol shooter put the strong side thumb? |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 7:43:32 PM EST
[#2]
The USP safety is much further back, close, but not close enough.
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Posted: 7/10/2014 7:54:50 PM EST
[#3]
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The USP safety is much further back, close, but not close enough. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/VP9-Left-cmyk.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/HKUSP.png Let's compare them after aligning the hand position of the shooting hand: 
As you can see, the USP safety looks like it would overlap the VP9 slide stop by about 1/4 inch or a little more, while being just slightly higher. The USP slide stop is almost entirely forward of the entire VP9 slide stop. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 7:59:50 PM EST
[#4]
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Let's compare them after aligning the hand position of the shooting hand: http://i62.tinypic.com/3503o7q.jpg As you can see, the USP safety looks like it would overlap the VP9 slide stop by about 1/4 inch or a little more, while being just slightly higher. The USP slide stop is almost entirely forward of the entire VP9 slide stop. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The USP safety is much further back, close, but not close enough. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/VP9-Left-cmyk.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/HKUSP.png Let's compare them after aligning the hand position of the shooting hand: http://i62.tinypic.com/3503o7q.jpg As you can see, the USP safety looks like it would overlap the VP9 slide stop by about 1/4 inch or a little more, while being just slightly higher. The USP slide stop is almost entirely forward of the entire VP9 slide stop. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 8:08:36 PM EST
[#5]
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Honestly my thumbs forward doesn't even go above the trigger, never has been an issue to me and I shoot just fine. Me too. I guess I'm doing it wrong. In the approximately 87 gazillion pistol rounds I've shot, most all of them through guns with correct slide stop placement, I've not once engaged the slide stop inadvertently. Thumbs forward doesn't mean thumbs on the frame. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 10:02:59 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly my thumbs forward doesn't even go above the trigger, never has been an issue to me and I shoot just fine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The USP safety is much further back, close, but not close enough. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/VP9-Left-cmyk.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/HKUSP.png Let's compare them after aligning the hand position of the shooting hand: http://i62.tinypic.com/3503o7q.jpg As you can see, the USP safety looks like it would overlap the VP9 slide stop by about 1/4 inch or a little more, while being just slightly higher. The USP slide stop is almost entirely forward of the entire VP9 slide stop. ALL of the best pistol shooters in the world use the same grip. Part of that grip is locking the support hand wrist and placing it as high on the frame as possible. If you do not use a similar grip than you are not shooting to your full potential.
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Posted: 7/10/2014 10:23:50 PM EST
[#7]
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ALL of the best pistol shooters in the world use the same grip. Part of that grip is locking the support hand wrist and placing it as high on the frame as possible. If you do not use a similar grip than you are not shooting to your full potential. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The USP safety is much further back, close, but not close enough. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/VP9-Left-cmyk.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/HKUSP.png Let's compare them after aligning the hand position of the shooting hand: http://i62.tinypic.com/3503o7q.jpg As you can see, the USP safety looks like it would overlap the VP9 slide stop by about 1/4 inch or a little more, while being just slightly higher. The USP slide stop is almost entirely forward of the entire VP9 slide stop. ALL of the best pistol shooters in the world use the same grip. Part of that grip is locking the support hand wrist and placing it as high on the frame as possible. If you do not use a similar grip than you are not shooting to your full potential. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 10:48:33 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why should I change my grip that has always worked well for me, to one that will un-nerve me, with the slide being so close? Moving parts and exposed skin do not mix well. Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates:  |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 10:48:46 PM EST
[#9]
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Why should I change my grip that has always worked well for me, to one that will un-nerve me, with the slide being so close? Moving parts and exposed skin do not mix well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The USP safety is much further back, close, but not close enough. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/VP9-Left-cmyk.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/HKUSP.png Let's compare them after aligning the hand position of the shooting hand: http://i62.tinypic.com/3503o7q.jpg As you can see, the USP safety looks like it would overlap the VP9 slide stop by about 1/4 inch or a little more, while being just slightly higher. The USP slide stop is almost entirely forward of the entire VP9 slide stop. ALL of the best pistol shooters in the world use the same grip. Part of that grip is locking the support hand wrist and placing it as high on the frame as possible. If you do not use a similar grip than you are not shooting to your full potential. I have never had that problem. The slide stop is a different story. If someone is unconsciously riding the slide stop, the problem is the firearm, not the shooter. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 11:17:41 PM EST
[#10]
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USP slide stop is much further forward than the VP9 slide stop. Consider that the VP9 slide stop is in virtually the same location as the tab on the safety lever of a USP. Thumbs forward, that's been the recommended grip since the 80's (or earlier), is improper? Where do you suggest that a pistol shooter put the strong side thumb? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Another shooter holds down the slide stop (at 4:44). Why do manufacturers do this. Facepalm. Because that's where the slide stop belongs. Where it doesn't function because it's in the way of a normal grip? No. USP slide stop is much further forward than the VP9 slide stop. Consider that the VP9 slide stop is in virtually the same location as the tab on the safety lever of a USP. Thumbs forward, that's been the recommended grip since the 80's (or earlier), is improper? Where do you suggest that a pistol shooter put the strong side thumb? FWIW this Video shows Kyle DeFoor's take on the modern grip and some tweaks that has been done (incl. strong thumb and slide stop areas). I personally am interested in the changes and have been practicing incorporating them into my grip. I don't think of the grip as a static procedure and am always interested in at least learning about possible improvements from those who shoot and train a hell of a lot more than I do. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 11:21:56 PM EST
[#11]
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Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why should I change my grip that has always worked well for me, to one that will un-nerve me, with the slide being so close? Moving parts and exposed skin do not mix well. Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 11:30:17 PM EST
[#12]
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Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why should I change my grip that has always worked well for me, to one that will un-nerve me, with the slide being so close? Moving parts and exposed skin do not mix well. Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg My thumb rests against the slide as well, just like the pic above, and have never had an issue. I think some believe more pressure is being applied w/ that support thumb then actually is. If you're pressing much at all w/ that thumb, you're basically pushing the gun out of alignment. That thumb placement - for me anyway - is to get my support wrist locked-out. My thumb is just lightly on the slide. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 11:39:57 PM EST
[#13]
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Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why should I change my grip that has always worked well for me, to one that will un-nerve me, with the slide being so close? Moving parts and exposed skin do not mix well. Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg Random question: does anyone know what kind of boots those are the guy in multicam is wearing? |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 11:56:16 PM EST
[#14]
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My thumb rests against the slide as well, just like the pic above, and have never had an issue. I think some believe more pressure is being applied w/ that support thumb then actually is. If you're pressing much at all w/ that thumb, you're basically pushing the gun out of alignment. That thumb placement - for me anyway - is to get my support wrist locked-out. My thumb is just lightly on the slide. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why should I change my grip that has always worked well for me, to one that will un-nerve me, with the slide being so close? Moving parts and exposed skin do not mix well. Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg My thumb rests against the slide as well, just like the pic above, and have never had an issue. I think some believe more pressure is being applied w/ that support thumb then actually is. If you're pressing much at all w/ that thumb, you're basically pushing the gun out of alignment. That thumb placement - for me anyway - is to get my support wrist locked-out. My thumb is just lightly on the slide. Using an M&P45, every once in a while I've had my thumb slow the slide just enough to have a misfeed or failure to extract. I was probably subconsciously pressing with the thumb slightly, but now I keep my strong hand thumb 1/4" or so away from the slide and support hand thumb on the frame, and this seems to work well enough for me. |
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Posted: 7/11/2014 12:07:24 AM EST
[#15]
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Random question: does anyone know what kind of boots those are the guy in multicam is wearing? Scarpa... which model I don't know. ETA: looked at the website real quick, looks like they're a discontinued model as I don't see anything that looks just like them. The current model "Kailash" is a pretty good boot. ETA2: that's probably incorrect. Forgot that Salomon uses a similar looking black stripe and white brand on the heel. They look a lot like the Salomon Quest 4d gtx |
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Posted: 7/11/2014 3:23:22 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am not putting my thumbs anywhere near any moving parts. And I don't see a need to fix what isn't broken. I can see where you all like to have one way of doing things but I see it as a wrong way of instruction...If a gun is handed to you and you're handicapped because you cannot shoot it over the way you train, then that is something that I find not wanting in technique. The VP9 will not hamper me or my performance with it, and it looks solid after listening to all the reviews so far. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why should I change my grip that has always worked well for me, to one that will un-nerve me, with the slide being so close? Moving parts and exposed skin do not mix well. Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg Millions of rounds have been fired with the thumbs at the top of the frame near the reciprocating slide without injury. What exactly is your concern? Either way, most do not actually place the hands directly on the slide. I tell students that the top edge of the thumb/support hand should be even with the top of the frame. If you are satisfied with your shooting ability then there is no reason to change anything. Others seeks to constantly improve their ability, and that improvement universally leads to the modern thumbs forward grip with the support hand wrist locked gripping as high as possible on the frame. Every top shooter doing the same thing is a pretty good clue. This grip allows the shooter to make accurate hits faster, but, again, if that's not important to you then there is no reason to change. While riding the slide stop on a poorly designed gun may be a handicap at first, there are usually slight grip tweaks that can be made as demonstrated by Kyle Defoor in the earlier posted video. Regardless, I place a proper grip's ability to deliver fast and accurate hits much higher than the reload speed that may be hindered by riding the slide stop lever in a defensive shooting scenario. The rounds fired out of that first magazine will likely have much greater influence over the outcome. FWIW, I've never held the VP9, so I don't know if the slide stop lever is an issue or not. Judging by the picture, it looks like it would work fine even if a slight grip tweak is needed.
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Posted: 7/11/2014 4:39:34 PM EST
[#17]
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Millions of rounds have been fired with the thumbs at the top of the frame near the reciprocating slide without injury. What exactly is your concern? Either way, most do not actually place the hands directly on the slide. I tell students that the top edge of the thumb/support hand should be even with the top of the frame. If you are satisfied with your shooting ability then there is no reason to change anything. Others seeks to constantly improve their ability, and that improvement universally leads to the modern thumbs forward grip with the support hand wrist locked gripping as high as possible on the frame. Every top shooter doing the same thing is a pretty good clue. This grip allows the shooter to make accurate hits faster, but, again, if that's not important to you then there is no reason to change. While riding the slide stop on a poorly designed gun may be a handicap at first, there are usually slight grip tweaks that can be made as demonstrated by Kyle Defoor in the earlier posted video. Regardless, I place a proper grip's ability to deliver fast and accurate hits much higher than the reload speed that may be hindered by riding the slide stop lever in a defensive shooting scenario. The rounds fired out of that first magazine will likely have much greater influence over the outcome. FWIW, I've never held the VP9, so I don't know if the slide stop lever is an issue or not. Judging by the picture, it looks like it would work fine even if a slight grip tweak is needed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why should I change my grip that has always worked well for me, to one that will un-nerve me, with the slide being so close? Moving parts and exposed skin do not mix well. Because you end up being a better shooter after some training with it. The reciprocating slide is not an issue. Thousands of shooters, including women and children, use this grip without injury. Here is an extreme example with the support hand thumb completely against the slide, and the slide is not even felt as it reciprocates: http://www.thealaskalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Redback-One-Tactical-Combat-Pistol-1.jpg Millions of rounds have been fired with the thumbs at the top of the frame near the reciprocating slide without injury. What exactly is your concern? Either way, most do not actually place the hands directly on the slide. I tell students that the top edge of the thumb/support hand should be even with the top of the frame. If you are satisfied with your shooting ability then there is no reason to change anything. Others seeks to constantly improve their ability, and that improvement universally leads to the modern thumbs forward grip with the support hand wrist locked gripping as high as possible on the frame. Every top shooter doing the same thing is a pretty good clue. This grip allows the shooter to make accurate hits faster, but, again, if that's not important to you then there is no reason to change. While riding the slide stop on a poorly designed gun may be a handicap at first, there are usually slight grip tweaks that can be made as demonstrated by Kyle Defoor in the earlier posted video. Regardless, I place a proper grip's ability to deliver fast and accurate hits much higher than the reload speed that may be hindered by riding the slide stop lever in a defensive shooting scenario. The rounds fired out of that first magazine will likely have much greater influence over the outcome. FWIW, I've never held the VP9, so I don't know if the slide stop lever is an issue or not. Judging by the picture, it looks like it would work fine even if a slight grip tweak is needed. We've gone from supporting each other with the firearms community to trying to change everyone to one way of doing things, fast stop. Let's go back to to supporting each other instead of trying to find solutions to non existing problems. And for the record, I've tried that grip you explained and it sucks. But I can understand why that grip makes people froth at anything that interferes with that grip but it's a problem that was created out of nothing. In the end, none of these things such as a manual safety, slide release location or shape, or whatever else is an excuse will ever impair me because I shoot in a way that doesn't handicap my performance because of the way a handgun is designed. In other words, there is no need to make it harder, just do it smarter. Far simpler to agree to disagree, friend. |
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Posted: 7/11/2014 4:44:55 PM EST
[#18]
The trigger on the VP9 I just handled is heavier and has a longer reset than the PPQ M2.
I am disappoint. Also, what is with the overly complicated trigger mechanism? Thing looks like a mechanical watch compared to a Glock or PPQ. |
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Posted: 7/11/2014 7:29:11 PM EST
[#19]
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The trigger on the VP9 I just handled is heavier and has a longer reset than the PPQ M2. I am disappoint. Also, what is with the overly complicated trigger mechanism? Thing looks like a mechanical watch compared to a Glock or PPQ. I shot one next to my PPQ and I thought the trigger wasn't as good as the PPQ but it was a close second. My groups were almost the same. My only complaint was I got finger pinch from the trough on the trigger guard. I'm going to shoot my friends again this weekend and try a different grip panel combo. The firing mechanism looks really interesting. The drop safety on the PPQ isn't that hot, it has been known to cause dead trigger when it's not aligned from the factory. The setup on the VP9 looks bomb proof. |
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Posted: 7/11/2014 11:34:24 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Far simpler to agree to disagree, friend. No one is trying to change how you shoot. My purpose is only to explain the validity of the complaint of a modern handgun design interfering with modern handgun shooting technique which has pretty much stabilized over the past 30 years and in use by every top handgun shooter in the world. What is HK's purpose of changing a design that was already compatible into one that may be problematic? Again, I haven't held the VP9 and don't know if this new design is indeed problematic, but I understand the concern. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 12:05:09 AM EST
[#21]
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The trigger on the VP9 I just handled is heavier and has a longer reset than the PPQ M2. I am disappoint. Also, what is with the overly complicated trigger mechanism? Thing looks like a mechanical watch compared to a Glock or PPQ. So it was hype after all That might be a good thing. Ppq is too short and light for duty or CCW. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 12:06:53 AM EST
[#22]
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No one is trying to change how you shoot. My purpose is only to explain the validity of the complaint of a modern handgun design interfering with modern handgun shooting technique which has pretty much stabilized over the past 30 years and in use by every top handgun shooter in the world. What is HK's purpose of changing a design that was already compatible into one that may be problematic? Again, I haven't held the VP9 and don't know if this new design is indeed problematic, but I understand the concern. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Far simpler to agree to disagree, friend. No one is trying to change how you shoot. My purpose is only to explain the validity of the complaint of a modern handgun design interfering with modern handgun shooting technique which has pretty much stabilized over the past 30 years and in use by every top handgun shooter in the world. What is HK's purpose of changing a design that was already compatible into one that may be problematic? Again, I haven't held the VP9 and don't know if this new design is indeed problematic, but I understand the concern. Is HK making handguns for top shooters, or for mil / Leo masses? I contend that HK is an engineering firm that happens to make guns. I swear that they do not shoot the guns they masterfully engineer. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 12:56:12 AM EST
[#23]
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No one is trying to change how you shoot. My purpose is only to explain the validity of the complaint of a modern handgun design interfering with modern handgun shooting technique which has pretty much stabilized over the past 30 years and in use by every top handgun shooter in the world. What is HK's purpose of changing a design that was already compatible into one that may be problematic? Again, I haven't held the VP9 and don't know if this new design is indeed problematic, but I understand the concern. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Far simpler to agree to disagree, friend. No one is trying to change how you shoot. My purpose is only to explain the validity of the complaint of a modern handgun design interfering with modern handgun shooting technique which has pretty much stabilized over the past 30 years and in use by every top handgun shooter in the world. What is HK's purpose of changing a design that was already compatible into one that may be problematic? Again, I haven't held the VP9 and don't know if this new design is indeed problematic, but I understand the concern. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 1:33:13 AM EST
[#24]
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Posted: 7/12/2014 2:25:41 AM EST
[#25]
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 M&P is a good looking gun for a polymer frame.Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I didn't think it was possible to make a gun as ugly as the M and P.....well...by God, it can be done!!! M&P is a good looking gun for a polymer frame.I agree. 
Isn't the VP9 MSRP $719? It should probably have a $650 street price, give or take. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 2:32:10 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. http://i.imgur.com/7Bzzt0q.jpg Isn't the VP9 MSRP $719? It should probably have a $650 street price, give or take. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I didn't think it was possible to make a gun as ugly as the M and P.....well...by God, it can be done!!! M&P is a good looking gun for a polymer frame.I agree. http://i.imgur.com/7Bzzt0q.jpg Isn't the VP9 MSRP $719? It should probably have a $650 street price, give or take.  |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 2:44:06 AM EST
[#27]
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you know, i knew that too but forgot during my typing 
iirc, they didnt really do anything with the VP70 and only started with polymer frames again after Glock and S&W designs took off Quote HistoryQuoted:
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its depressing how the same company took the aesthetic and performance perfection of the P7 and turned it into the fucked up, Frankenstein looking handguns of the last 15 years. all in the name of playing catch up in the polymer frame market? HK was first into the polymer frame game. you know, i knew that too but forgot during my typing
iirc, they didnt really do anything with the VP70 and only started with polymer frames again after Glock and S&W designs took off It is like hearing the Microsoft fan bois saying , "but but.... Microsoft made the first tablet", yeah people tend to forget you were first when your product fails like an airplane made out of bricks. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 2:51:45 AM EST
[#28]
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Just wait until its time to buy magazines. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I like H&K and all (even if I do suck and they hate me) but what are they thinking? H&K on the side is worth $200? Just wait until its time to buy magazines. I knew a guy with a P7M13 he waited for a decade for the MAg ban to sunset witht dreams of getting some more mags at an affordable price....hehehe he is still dreaming. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 3:25:51 AM EST
[#29]
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Again, I can't think of an agency off the top of my head that issues those. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They're doing it for the same reason Sig did. To recapture some of that lost LEO contracts, because right now many of them are only looking at striker fired guns. Same reason you can get an M&P with a thumb safety and a magazine disconnect. No agency I can think of issues a pistol with an external safety. Berrettas and third generation smiths. Again, I can't think of an agency off the top of my head that issues those. CA CHP. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 3:38:32 AM EST
[#30]
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Glock has higher end models It's called all of them Look at the corners of Glock slides......round Nobody else does that. They just cut right across You have to get a Clarke customs melt job for $3000 to get that in 1911 land, and then It looks like a pos I regularly carry a Glock IWB with a raven trigger guard cover. But I do it while running commando. Just Glock on skin. Very comfy! If nobody realized you were trolling before, they do now. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 3:41:48 AM EST
[#31]
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I like the M&P's aesthetics a lot, but NOT the .45 or long slide variants with the tapered Browning hi-power like muzzle.
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I didn't think it was possible to make a gun as ugly as the M and P.....well...by God, it can be done!!! M&P is a good looking gun for a polymer frame.I agree.
http://i.imgur.com/7Bzzt0q.jpg Isn't the VP9 MSRP $719? It should probably have a $650 street price, give or take.
That's actually one thing I like about the look of the FS45. There are enough poly guns where the frame ends at the front of the slide or close to it. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 4:37:41 AM EST
[#32]
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That might be a good thing. Ppq is too short and light for duty or CCW. No, it's not. But of course, you know that, you just had to add something in a trollolol edit. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 4:59:57 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it's not. But of course, you know that, you just had to add something in a trollolol edit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That might be a good thing. Ppq is too short and light for duty or CCW. No, it's not. But of course, you know that, you just had to add something in a trollolol edit. 
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Posted: 7/12/2014 5:08:16 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have him on ignore for a very good reason, but did he seriously just say that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That might be a good thing. Ppq is too short and light for duty or CCW. No, it's not. But of course, you know that, you just had to add something in a trollolol edit. Yup. TrolololoLololoLololoLo. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 5:45:45 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. TrolololoLololoLololoLo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That might be a good thing. Ppq is too short and light for duty or CCW. No, it's not. But of course, you know that, you just had to add something in a trollolol edit. Yup. TrolololoLololoLololoLo. I cant imagine an agency or department issuing a gun with that light of a trigger, though.
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Posted: 7/12/2014 9:28:39 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly my thumbs forward doesn't even go above the trigger, never has been an issue to me and I shoot just fine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The USP safety is much further back, close, but not close enough. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/VP9-Left-cmyk.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/HKUSP.png Let's compare them after aligning the hand position of the shooting hand: http://i62.tinypic.com/3503o7q.jpg As you can see, the USP safety looks like it would overlap the VP9 slide stop by about 1/4 inch or a little more, while being just slightly higher. The USP slide stop is almost entirely forward of the entire VP9 slide stop. You shoot slow. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 10:37:15 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, he is trolling, but part of what he said is right. An experienced shooter could easily CCW a PPQ. I cant imagine an agency or department issuing a gun with that light of a trigger, though. How heavy do you expect it to be? My PPQ trigger is 5lbs 5oz, and the travel distance to the release point is almost as long as a double action. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 11:32:16 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How heavy do you expect it to be? My PPQ trigger is 5lbs 5oz, and the travel distance to the release point is almost as long as a double action. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes, he is trolling, but part of what he said is right. An experienced shooter could easily CCW a PPQ. I cant imagine an agency or department issuing a gun with that light of a trigger, though. How heavy do you expect it to be? My PPQ trigger is 5lbs 5oz, and the travel distance to the release point is almost as long as a double action. |
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Posted: 7/12/2014 3:58:28 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You shoot slow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The USP safety is much further back, close, but not close enough. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/VP9-Left-cmyk.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/HKUSP.png Let's compare them after aligning the hand position of the shooting hand: http://i62.tinypic.com/3503o7q.jpg As you can see, the USP safety looks like it would overlap the VP9 slide stop by about 1/4 inch or a little more, while being just slightly higher. The USP slide stop is almost entirely forward of the entire VP9 slide stop. You shoot slow. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 6:27:47 PM EST
[#40]
I shot my friends T&E VP9 again today and tried different back and side strap combinations. Strangely the pinch I noticed disappeared using the stock medium backstrap and panel. I can't really explain why except I put more rounds through it today than the first time I shot it.
It's a really sweet shooter. I'm going to get one if any if these every show up at any of my wholesalers in quantities big enough so they aren't allocated. It may take a while from the looks of things. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 7:08:03 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not every handgun shooter employ's that technique, and as I said before, you're handicapping yourself to just one style and I do not see any validation at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Far simpler to agree to disagree, friend. No one is trying to change how you shoot. My purpose is only to explain the validity of the complaint of a modern handgun design interfering with modern handgun shooting technique which has pretty much stabilized over the past 30 years and in use by every top handgun shooter in the world. What is HK's purpose of changing a design that was already compatible into one that may be problematic? Again, I haven't held the VP9 and don't know if this new design is indeed problematic, but I understand the concern. Every good handgun shooter does. I don't see shooting accurate faster as a handicap (even if it interferes with the slide stop). As you said, agree to disagree. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 7:09:10 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is HK making handguns for top shooters, or for mil / Leo masses? I contend that HK is an engineering firm that happens to make guns. I swear that they do not shoot the guns they masterfully engineer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Far simpler to agree to disagree, friend. No one is trying to change how you shoot. My purpose is only to explain the validity of the complaint of a modern handgun design interfering with modern handgun shooting technique which has pretty much stabilized over the past 30 years and in use by every top handgun shooter in the world. What is HK's purpose of changing a design that was already compatible into one that may be problematic? Again, I haven't held the VP9 and don't know if this new design is indeed problematic, but I understand the concern. Is HK making handguns for top shooters, or for mil / Leo masses? I contend that HK is an engineering firm that happens to make guns. I swear that they do not shoot the guns they masterfully engineer. Top military and LEO all use the same handgun grip. As does HK's own shooting team.
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Posted: 7/13/2014 7:24:00 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every good handgun shooter does. I don't see shooting accurate faster as a handicap (even if it interferes with the slide stop). As you said, agree to disagree. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Far simpler to agree to disagree, friend. No one is trying to change how you shoot. My purpose is only to explain the validity of the complaint of a modern handgun design interfering with modern handgun shooting technique which has pretty much stabilized over the past 30 years and in use by every top handgun shooter in the world. What is HK's purpose of changing a design that was already compatible into one that may be problematic? Again, I haven't held the VP9 and don't know if this new design is indeed problematic, but I understand the concern. Every good handgun shooter does. I don't see shooting accurate faster as a handicap (even if it interferes with the slide stop). As you said, agree to disagree. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 7:56:25 PM EST
[#44]
I am sure you could find a good shooter who doesn't shoot thumbs forward but you'd have to see a lot of people who do while you're looking. That's usually considered a clue.
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Posted: 7/13/2014 8:19:59 PM EST
[#45]
Well the issue is that I do shoot thumbs forward, just not the way he's going at lengths to try to convince me to shoot it.
The VP9 won't need any tweaking with my grip already, so its a non issue... |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 8:27:18 PM EST
[#46]
Thumbs forward or extreme thumbs forward? I tried the extreme thumbs forward grip and didn't care for it. My normal grip places my right thumb on the back on my left thumb at the second joint. It also places the knuckles of my right hand squarely into my left palm. The grip is rock solid.
The extreme thumbs forward grip places my right thumb and knuckles on the heel of my left hand. The pistol has side to side play in my hand. Whatever benefit I would gain by completely locking my left wrist are lost. I also find that the extreme thumbs forward grip only works in a rigid isosceles stance. With a locked wrist, you have to cant the pistol to pull it into your chest. By using the standard thumbs forward grip, I can transition from isosceles to modified weaver with ease. This is a must for CQB. I can also pull the weapon in close, even staying on the sights, without changing my grip or canting the pistol. Saying that ALL top shooters use the extreme thumbs forward grip is simply not true. I find it to be more popular amongst competition shooters and YouTube "trainers" than people at the tip of the spear. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 8:54:14 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bullshit. I can shoot just as fast and not every good shooter shoots that way, fucking christ...is your livelihood at stake here?? Show me on one top pistol shooter that does not use a modern thumbs forward grip with a locked support hand wrist high on the frame. Can be military, LE, or civilian. Just one. I really don't care how you shoot your gun, and I'm not trying to change it. Apparently you are satisfied with your current handgun shooting ability, so there's no reason to change what works for you. However, the way you do it is different than every handgun shooter whose opinion matters to a firearms company. I only brought it up because you asserted that modern handgun doctrine employed by every top pistol shooter in the world is wrong (or irrelevant) because a group of engineers may not take that into consideration when designing a handgun. I understand that it is not a personal problem for you, but when it has the potential of being a problem with the 99% of other skilled handgun shooters then it's worth consideration. Regardless, I haven't heard of any major complaints about the slide stop from some good shooters that have reviewed the VP9, so it's probably all a moot point anyway. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 9:08:07 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I also find that the extreme thumbs forward grip only works in a rigid isosceles stance. With a locked wrist, you have to cant the pistol to pull it into your chest. By using the standard thumbs forward grip, I can transition from isosceles to modified weaver with ease. This is a must for CQB. I can also pull the weapon in close, even staying on the sights, without changing my grip or canting the pistol. It works fine in a high compressed ready--you just have to roll the gun a bit toward the support side to prevent the muzzle from canting upward. It even provides superior recoil management shooting from retention in that position. FWIW, I used a grip similar to what I think you're describing for a long time (and one similar to what GSL's describing before that) before I learned how to correctly employ the modern thumbs forward grip that I'm talking about (I wouldn't call it extreme--the tip of the support hand thumb should be about even with the tip of the trigger finger indexed along the frame). It took a bit to get used to, but the recoil management was a true night and day difference once I got it down. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 9:41:30 PM EST
[#49]
Fuckin' A, there's more talk of thumbs here than at a lesbian fisting convention.
My .02 - thumbs are largely irrelevant. It's locking out the support wrist that is beneficial. And now the purse swinging may resume.... |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 9:52:06 PM EST
[#50]
$700.00 for a striker-fired, polymer pistol?
Bull-SHIT. |
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