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Posted: 12/11/2019 8:24:39 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Allies would have been fighting manpower shortages. Britain was tapped out by early 44. All 106 divisions we raised were overseas by 45, there was no reserve left in the US. Home front would have been getting antsy, people wanted the war over. |
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Posted: 12/11/2019 8:48:50 PM EDT
[#2]
WW2 is a rich source of alternate history theories.
For the war to extend into 46 or 47, Germany would have delayed Operation Barbarossa and avoided an eastern front. Germany could have fortified western and Central Europe. Invading the UK was never a viable option. The Royal Navy would have decimated supply lines and an invading force would have never advanced well into the country. A slightly more hinged Hitler would have fortified Europe and developed long range bombers, an atomic program to force the USA into a Cold War. That’s the only way I see the war going past 1945. Of course, Uncle Joe had eyes on Eastern Europe, so the colossal eastern front was probably an eventuality. Fascinating topic |
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Posted: 12/11/2019 9:03:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The two built were operational in the sense that they performed multiple test flights but no they never carried out combat missions. They had a range of 5,000 nautical miles in bomber configuration. They absolutely could have bombed New York, that's not debatable. It may have been a one way trip for the plane with the crew bailing out over the Atlantic to get picked up by U-boats but it was possible. If the Germans managed to build atom bombs (by some accounts they may have but those are unverifiable) then I think they absolutely would have made the trip given enough time. As for getting to New York, it damned sure isn't going to carry enough fuel to get there, along with a 9,000 pound first generation nuke. |
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Posted: 12/11/2019 9:04:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I dont think so, Germany was in shambles at the end... they had no industry with which to construct these wonder weapons. Their only ace in the hole, really, were the V2 rockets. Not at all accurate they still served as psychological weapon as the bulk of their targets were in London residential or shopping areas. Even as the war was winding down, and things improving in Britain, a lone V2 ripped into a crowded Woolworths store, killing hundreds. For no good reason. |
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Posted: 12/11/2019 9:06:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep dreaming. The outcome would have been no different without lend lease. More Russians would have simply died Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep dreaming. The outcome would have been no different without lend lease. More Russians would have simply died |
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Posted: 12/11/2019 9:17:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The US would not have nuked Europe. The US war effort went to great lengths to dehumanize Japanese people/cultures as subhuman vermin. The pacific war effort propaganda and posters were incredibly racial/xenophobic in nature. Russia or GB might have nuked Germany if they accelerated their development or if the US loaned them a nuke as part of an allied war effort. Shit, look at what they did to Dresden... they might as well have nuked it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The most obvious one, nukes. Russia or GB might have nuked Germany if they accelerated their development or if the US loaned them a nuke as part of an allied war effort. Shit, look at what they did to Dresden... they might as well have nuked it. 
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Posted: 12/11/2019 9:21:36 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Without the atomic bomb? The US invading Japan with thousands of casualties on both sides. |
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Posted: 12/11/2019 11:44:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You mis-spelled Millions of Allied troops and Tens of Millions of Japanese. If you ever read Paul Fussell, according to his research, they were scheduled to use Seven doses of canned sunshine in the opening stage of Operation Olympic alone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Without the atomic bomb? The US invading Japan with thousands of casualties on both sides. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 1:55:45 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Germany did not and would not have had an atomic bomb. They were way down the wrong road on that. As for getting to New York, it damned sure isn't going to carry enough fuel to get there, along with a 9,000 pound first generation nuke. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The two built were operational in the sense that they performed multiple test flights but no they never carried out combat missions. They had a range of 5,000 nautical miles in bomber configuration. They absolutely could have bombed New York, that's not debatable. It may have been a one way trip for the plane with the crew bailing out over the Atlantic to get picked up by U-boats but it was possible. If the Germans managed to build atom bombs (by some accounts they may have but those are unverifiable) then I think they absolutely would have made the trip given enough time. As for getting to New York, it damned sure isn't going to carry enough fuel to get there, along with a 9,000 pound first generation nuke. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 3:06:15 AM EDT
[#10]
Had the war extended into '46, '47, '48 the B-36 would probably not have been further developed. The plane was originally designed to hit europe from CONUS in the event that Britain fell to the Germans. After the war the threat was the russians. Both of those missions required the B-36's range and payload. But if Britain held and the war in europe just dragged, say a failed invasion of Normandy or German victory over the russians, then all we would have needed would have been more and better shorter range bombers. The B-45 development would have been accelerated while resources for the B-36 would have stalled.
All a matter of priorities. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 10:44:48 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Had the war extended into '46, '47, '48 the B-36 would probably not have been further developed. The plane was originally designed to hit europe from CONUS in the event that Britain fell to the Germans. After the war the threat was the russians. Both of those missions required the B-36's range and payload. But if Britain held and the war in europe just dragged, say a failed invasion of Normandy or German victory over the russians, then all we would have needed would have been more and better shorter range bombers. The B-45 development would have been accelerated while resources for the B-36 would have stalled. All a matter of priorities. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 4:25:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cite? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: New thread topic: If Roosevelt lived longer how much Stalin cock would he have gobbled? Either way, good riddance. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 4:33:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, he was right. Ike and Truman let Stalin get away with inhumane shit after the war. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Patton wanted to conscript what was left of the German military and crush the USSR while it was weakened. I think he was right. Ike and Truman let Stalin get away with inhumane shit after the war. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 4:48:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Horten HO 229 seems like it had the potential to be bad news for the allies... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/359475/F089BA5E-9D75-4452-BDE0-6B7DF0C5C2DB_jpeg-1191310.JPG Most likely would have meant a really big dirty bomb and a psychological blow but not much in terms of KaBOOOM!. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 4:49:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That Horten is very cool but with no tail and no fly by wire I doubt it would have been controlable. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 4:52:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Military invasion of Japan. Great amount of casualties.
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:04:41 PM EDT
[#17]
If the war went 2 years longer we would still have won without fielding much in the way of new weapons. The late war p47s were pretty much fast enough to deal with the german jets and we could have fielded our own. We might have needed more 90mm armed M36's or perhaps something similar with a larger gun, but the shermans were up to the task for the bulk of the fighting they did, most of which was vs infantry. The Navy was already heading in the right direction.
The question is really about the state of German industry. Their air force was hindered by fuel quality and lack of pilots even by '45. It still comes down to logistics. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:06:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All we have to do is look at Korea, Mig15 was a German WWII design taken right off the blueprints...it killed the Shooting star and any other US jet or propeller fighters. Yes the Mig15 was indeed a German Nazi era fighter design stolen by the Red army and its designers were forced to work as slave labor for Stalin. Look at it's true origins. In fact all the Soviet cold war jets, missiles and rockets and space technology came from German scientist slaves taken captive in WWII (even Sputnik), same way the US Apollo programs were the same from German scientists. We wouldn't have gone to the moon without them. But when those slave German scientists died in the Soviet Union by the 80's the Russians lost any edge they had. Which is why they once seemed awesome and are now a joke. Hell even Kalashnikov was a thief and a liar...he was the coffee boy for Hugo Schmeisser who again was Nazi slave labor for the Russian...but yeah, Hugo, one of the greatest gun designers of the 20th century had nothing to do with the AK47 even though he "worked" with AK...AK the tractor driver and great Soviet hero of the Motherland....lol. We should call it the "HS47" if we want to be truthful. What did AK design after Hugo's death? nothing new. There you go... Take the WWII slave German scientists away during the cold war and Russia becomes Pakistan in arms and technology. This is why when those captured German scientists died the "Soviet edge" died...fact. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:09:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Montana class battleships!
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:11:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Krushchev and Stalin disagree. I think they would know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Keep dreaming. The outcome would have been no different without lend lease. More Russians would have simply died |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:12:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Germany did not and would not have had an atomic bomb. They were way down the wrong road on that. As for getting to New York, it damned sure isn't going to carry enough fuel to get there, along with a 9,000 pound first generation nuke. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The two built were operational in the sense that they performed multiple test flights but no they never carried out combat missions. They had a range of 5,000 nautical miles in bomber configuration. They absolutely could have bombed New York, that's not debatable. It may have been a one way trip for the plane with the crew bailing out over the Atlantic to get picked up by U-boats but it was possible. If the Germans managed to build atom bombs (by some accounts they may have but those are unverifiable) then I think they absolutely would have made the trip given enough time. As for getting to New York, it damned sure isn't going to carry enough fuel to get there, along with a 9,000 pound first generation nuke. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:14:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not all flying wings need a tail or computer to be stable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That Horten is very cool but with no tail and no fly by wire I doubt it would have been controlable. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:19:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that's interesting because of how US Lend-Lease aid to the USSR would have been affected if the British Navy was neutral or actively hostile to the US Navy L-L convoys. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or Lord Halifax accepts the offer to be PM instead of declining in favor of Churchill. Halifax was a Hitler appeaser and hated Churchill, with disaster staring them in the face Halifax was offered the PM job but, I believe, figured he'd hand the shit sandwich to Churchill and just try to survive politically to pick up the pieces later. Halifax was made part of Churchill's war cabinet and then tried to convince the cabinet to force Churchill to seek peace terms with Hitler just as Dunkirk began, but Churchill saw it coming and beat him to the punch by a matter of hours with a speech to the cabinet that established his policy of total resistance. Dunkirk was as successful as it could be, the British hung on by their fingernails, the rest is history. But if Halifax took the PM offer, or if Churchill's government lasted all of two and a half weeks before he had to resign after Halifax hijacked the cabinet and stirred an already rising panic, Halifax would have negotiated. Hitler wanted Britain as an economic (and perhaps even direct military) ally against Russia much more than he wanted to march into London, I think both he and Halifax would have accepted "internment" of most of the RN and RAF's equipment in occupied France (which Hitler would then steal, that being understood by both but unstated for political reasons), mild reparations and advantageous but not disastrous trade terms (which Hitler would unilaterally change once Britain was largely disarmed) and the right to build a colonial empire hither and yon. Britain wouldn't have to be invaded or occupied, just being disarmed and neutral would add many, many years to the war. Russia is much more likely to have fallen, at a minimum FDR has to adopt a Japan first policy since it would be the better part of a decade before we could hope for a trans-Atlantic D-Day, quite possibly we avoid war with Nazi Europe entirely until both sides have nukes and we settle into a cold war. we would have pulled one or two flat top groups out of the pacific and ended the British navy. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:22:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The original plan WAS to nuke Berlin. However, the bomb(s) were not ready until the summer of 1945. Berlin fell on 30 April/1 May 1945. If you have ever seen pictures of Berlin immediately after WWII, there were huge stretches of the city that Looked like they had been nuked. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The most obvious one, nukes. Russia or GB might have nuked Germany if they accelerated their development or if the US loaned them a nuke as part of an allied war effort. Shit, look at what they did to Dresden... they might as well have nuked it. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:38:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They really didn't have a mature design for the payload yet-it was supposed to carry a nuke. The device they had was basically plates arranged in a stack with kerosene in between to help keep them isloated in order to keep from going critical. When the bomb hit the ground, the plates squeezed out as the uranium collapsed on itself and detonated. Most likely would have meant a really big dirty bomb and a psychological blow but not much in terms of KaBOOOM!. I do agree with the dirty bomb, and it being one hell of a blow. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:42:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bombing Berlin was talked about, but not seriously, Japan had always been the target. We simply did not have the means to deliver atomic bombs, yes the B29 did it, but the Silverplate were custom B29’s that were highly modified, we spent roughly 65 million converting 46 B29’s to carry nuclear weapons. The B29 was never going to fly over Berlin during WW2, they were simply to unreliable, and they removed the guns from the ones in the pacific to get airborn any sort of bomb load. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 5:46:31 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The tech was in and around Berlin, and we were in a race to stake claim to it, rather than destroy it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Bombing Berlin was talked about, but not seriously, Japan had always been the target. We simply did not have the means to deliver atomic bombs, yes the B29 did it, but the Silverplate were custom B29’s that were highly modified, we spent roughly 65 million converting 46 B29’s to carry nuclear weapons. The B29 was never going to fly over Berlin during WW2, they were simply to unreliable, and they removed the guns from the ones in the pacific to get airborn any sort of bomb load. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 6:00:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, Watson’s Whizzers and operation Lusty. There was also operation Paperclip. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 6:05:00 PM EDT
[#29]
Trinity shot.
July 16, 1945. An implosion style nuclear fission shot. While Hiroshima used a 'gun barrel' weapon that had NOT been tested before, Nagasaki received an implosion weapon with plutonium as the primary fuel and plenty of the DU from the Uranium production line to create a 'tamper' around the plutonium pit. That DU was the heaviest material we could find to help confine the initial conventional explosion used to trigger the fission reaction. The conventional explosives had been wrapped in many inches of DU. The plutonium core was than compressed even more. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 6:11:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
one thing we learned that the Russians didn’t was how the elevator controls worked or I should didn’t work around Mach 1 They do not account for the standing pressure wave (Mach wave) that forms. It actually chokes off air flow across the Mach wave. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 7:04:11 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Had they been able to develop the A-9 "Amerikarakete" they probably wouldn't have needed a plane to make it to NY |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 7:05:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True, look at Northrups flying wings of the 40’s |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 7:31:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Both theaters were won “quickly” because of US Signals intercepts. So...
Japan and Germany encrypt and jumble comms traffic while decoding and jamming Allied comms. Germany unleashes pestilence unto the Russian hoards, devastating the armies before they reach Germany. German subs deliver V2s against Washington and NYC. Latest sub and torpedo technology enables Britain to be isolated; British starve and capitulate. Germany blitzes into Switzerland seizing global gold assets and investments of most American globalists. US industrialists are now impoverished and continue working with Grandpa Bush to change US political winds and the promise of returned personal assets in the form of ROI from the Russian invasion. American people are fed a line about the length of the war driving a new American attitude toward settlement. Japanese consolidate the millions of troops to mainland Asia and Japan. Latest German subs take out all carriers in the Pacific. Hitler assassinated, Wehrmacht joins forces with USA to attack Russia. |
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Posted: 12/12/2019 7:39:05 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 12/12/2019 7:54:31 PM EDT
[#35]
“The first time I saw a jet airplane, I shot it down.” — Chuck Yeager.
In a P51 no less. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:08:17 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
we'd be speaking japanese |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:10:58 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure why... LeMay said there would be no more firebombing targets after Sept 1, 1945 as everything would have already been burned out. Air dropped mining of the inland sea was shutting down food/resource deliveries. Yes the Coronet/Olympic invasions would suck bad and cost over a million US casualties but the fall of Japan was going to happen albeit at a high cost. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
we'd be speaking japanese 
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:28:39 AM EDT
[#38]
47 would be the year the F-86 and MiG15 first flew. I doubt the MiG15 would have been born without German tech and engineers captured in 45 though.
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:34:10 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hitlers last official letter was to his generals, turning down their urgent request for hitler to evacuate Berlin and lead what was left of the German army to fight on. Had he done so, the Nazis could have held out for a few more months at least. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And nukes. As fast as they could crank them out. I suspect we would have seen some “tactical” use. And Germany would probably not have any major cities. Or at least, none pre-1947. Or later. I’m glad it ended before 1946. Had he done so, the Nazis could have held out for a few more months at least. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:37:20 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And nukes. As fast as they could crank them out. I suspect we would have seen some “tactical” use. And Germany would probably not have any major cities. Or at least, none pre-1947. Or later. I’m glad it ended before 1946. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Panzerkampfwagen E-100, Panzer VIII Maus, Horten 229, STG44 being more widespread, Leibermuster camo pattern, Fliegerfaust I’m glad it ended before 1946. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:39:13 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Horten HO 229 seems like it had the potential to be bad news for the allies... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/359475/F089BA5E-9D75-4452-BDE0-6B7DF0C5C2DB_jpeg-1191310.JPG They were already screwed at that point and their Air Force was in shambles. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:42:56 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Germany had a long range bomber capable of reaching CONUS at the end of the war. There's some debate about how close they really were to developing atomic weapons with some sources claiming three possible tests that occurred. So be thankful it ended when it did I guess. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The most obvious one, nukes. So be thankful it ended when it did I guess. In 1945 the US was gearing up for the mass production of atomic bombs - 3+ a month. Had the war stretched on so would have production capacity. Germany didn’t have a working bomb design nor the electrical capacity to run the number of centrifuges necessary to build even a single bomb. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:53:58 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really good move on our part. You are also correct about the B-29. I think they landed in Britain well after the end of action 1948, but of course they were then aimed at the Russians. The British did not get theirs delivered until 1950. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yep, Watson’s Whizzers and operation Lusty. There was also operation Paperclip. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:57:49 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
47 would be the year the F-86 and MiG15 first flew. I doubt the MiG15 would have been born without German tech and engineers captured in 45 though. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:58:28 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No need to maneuver. Just get in behind it - out of .50 caliber ranger - and fire a missile. Look, bottom line is that a massive slow target like the the B36 is impractical at any altitude and that may be why it was never used in actual combat. The B52 was a deal breaker though and did everything the B36 tried to do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Except - you are wrong. Featherwieght B-36s operated above 55,000 feet sometimes. Look at the wing - its huge. Fighters trying to maneuver with it would stall out. We know these because they tried. Look, bottom line is that a massive slow target like the the B36 is impractical at any altitude and that may be why it was never used in actual combat. The B52 was a deal breaker though and did everything the B36 tried to do. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 12:59:29 AM EDT
[#46]
The idea of Germany fighting in post 45 years requires that they not make the mistake of fucking with Russia in 41. They would have to have more access to fuel sources, precious metal sources, rubber sources and somehow find a bigger source of reliable allies that brought capability and resources to the germans.
The outcome in 45bwas driven by the Germans over zealous time table for taking Europe and not realizing that the US would inevitably be in the war on a full scale basis. The unhampered ability to manage our resources and manufacturing to support the allied effort was huge compared to the Germans production and material resources. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 8:38:05 AM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 12/13/2019 9:08:08 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The idea of Germany fighting in post 45 years requires that they not make the mistake of fucking with Russia in 41. They would have to have more access to fuel sources, precious metal sources, rubber sources and somehow find a bigger source of reliable allies that brought capability and resources to the germans. The outcome in 45bwas driven by the Germans over zealous time table for taking Europe and not realizing that the US would inevitably be in the war on a full scale basis. The unhampered ability to manage our resources and manufacturing to support the allied effort was huge compared to the Germans production and material resources. 42-45 was basically just delaying the inevitable. This whole thread is made on a false premise, it's not history. Its alt history, which is just a never ending discussion of what ifs. |
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Posted: 12/13/2019 9:19:42 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistorySuch an underrated movie. + Rutger Hauer in his prime.
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Posted: 12/13/2019 9:38:33 AM EDT
[#50]
I know this thread is off the rails but it has shown me many neat videos and ideas I had not known prior. So thanks OP!
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