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Did you watch the long version? I thought it was interesting that the risk of current going UP the ground rod into the equipment was a bigger problem than needing to dump excess current off the equipment inside the building. But you're exactly right, if you isolate the solar panel from the potential current (uh, not sure how to rephrase that) that could go 'backwards' from a lightning strike pushing current up the ground rod, what happens when it takes a direct hit? You've introduced a ton of energy, what happens to it? Quoted:
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what happens when your solar array is hit by lightening? I thought it was interesting that the risk of current going UP the ground rod into the equipment was a bigger problem than needing to dump excess current off the equipment inside the building. But you're exactly right, if you isolate the solar panel from the potential current (uh, not sure how to rephrase that) that could go 'backwards' from a lightning strike pushing current up the ground rod, what happens when it takes a direct hit? You've introduced a ton of energy, what happens to it? |
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It happens all the time with flooded junction boxes and such; all that happens is the circuit breaker trips. There is no resistance to the current path so amperage goes up until the breaker trips. If the wire size is not large enough to accommodate the current it starts to act like a resistor to give off the excess energy in the form of heat and burns up. |
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Did you watch the long version? I thought it was interesting that the risk of current going UP the ground rod into the equipment was a bigger problem than needing to dump excess current off the equipment inside the building. But you're exactly right, if you isolate the solar panel from the potential current (uh, not sure how to rephrase that) that could go 'backwards' from a lightning strike pushing current up the ground rod, what happens when it takes a direct hit? You've introduced a ton of energy, what happens to it? Quoted:
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what happens when your solar array is hit by lightening? I thought it was interesting that the risk of current going UP the ground rod into the equipment was a bigger problem than needing to dump excess current off the equipment inside the building. But you're exactly right, if you isolate the solar panel from the potential current (uh, not sure how to rephrase that) that could go 'backwards' from a lightning strike pushing current up the ground rod, what happens when it takes a direct hit? You've introduced a ton of energy, what happens to it? The aux GEC only adds yet ANOTHER source for the solar array (or genset) to get fried. It doesn't help limit the damage. |
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Good to see you around again, and you are most correct. I am bidding on some structure grounding (the work, not the engineering) and decided I wanted to bone up on my grounding knowledge, I was surprised at how wrong I was with 99% of what I thought I knew about grounding. I'll just be following the guidance of the experts, which I'm clearly not one. Interesting to me anyway. Quoted:
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On the vast majority of ground electrode installations? Nothing happens. Most ground electrodes are fairly high impedance connections to the earth. There are ways to design, install, and test low impedance ground connections. I'll just be following the guidance of the experts, which I'm clearly not one. Interesting to me anyway. 
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My grandpa had a 100 ft. electrical cord with two steel rods on one end. The wires were wrapped around the end of the rods and taped up with a few layers of electrical tape. He'd take the out back of the house, stick the steel rods in the damp dirt between the creek and the back porch, clear us kids out of the area and then go inside and plug the other end into an outlet. The fishing worms would come out of the ground like rain falling from the skies. Then he'd unplug the electrical cords and holler for us to quickly gather up the stunned worms in the can we carried. He'd roll his worm cord up, put it away and we'd go fishing. Never blew the fuses but maybe that was a function of short duration or plenty of resistance due to the distance from rod to rod. |
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Just inside the fence, I'm assuming. I've never seen a line where all the foundation grounding was cad welded, is that what you guys do? Quoted:
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Exothermic connections below grade. Bolted connections above grade.
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Quoted: Yeah that’s inside the fence. I have no idea what lines does. I ASSumed they do it the same way. We've had some poles in gravel beds that didn't make 15 ohms with a half dozen ground rods and even a copper cable buried 4' down for 200 yards. The power company let it slide in that area, after we practically proved we can't get there. |
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If you're talking about installing a cord cap (plug) onto each of the two wires from the different spools and splicing the other two ends of the two spools together, nothing will happen as the coiled wire will create a lot of resistance thus keeping the circuit breaker from tripping. Now, if you straighten the wires out so it's one big flat loop then the breaker will trip. Quoted:
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On the vast majority of ground electrode installations? Nothing happens. Most ground electrodes are fairly high impedance connections to the earth. There are ways to design, install, and test low impedance ground connections. Two 500’ spools of #12 THHN connected together to make it an overall length of 1000’. Connect a cord plug to the two ends of this 1000’ coil of #12. Plug it into a 120v receptacle! What happens ?? Now, if you straighten the wires out so it's one big flat loop then the breaker will trip. |
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Shit. Bro, I don't even do V = IR to see how many amps are going to be pulled. I just post. It's like shooting from the hip. But safer. Yeah, I was seriously surprised by how many people are just milling around you at any given time, after accidentally shooting that one, I just don't do that anymore. Look, I have a proven track record of setting myself on fire in situations where a smart person, hell even a Nobel Laureate, would have said such an outcome was impossible. Thus, I'm very cautious around electricity and fire, and especially electricity that is on fire. Quoted:
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If the breaker and wiring are properly sized, it should just result in a tripped breaker. Look, I have a proven track record of setting myself on fire in situations where a smart person, hell even a Nobel Laureate, would have said such an outcome was impossible. Thus, I'm very cautious around electricity and fire, and especially electricity that is on fire. "It's off, the breaker is OFF, it can't POSSIBLY be hot. Your ticker's wrong, just cut the sumbitch so we can get outta here." *POW!* "...The fuck? How the hell did you do that?!" "Shut the fuck up and gimme YOUR linemans." I had just gotten that set of kleins, too. 
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Yep, I've been taught to hop away from any downed lines due to step potential. I've seen some interesting training on bringing the workspace on a pole to the same potential as well, so that the lineman is protected in his potential envelope. I don't climb poles (or turn wrenches, or drive a crane or anything else useful) so it was interesting but kinda in one ear and out the other. Now I'm trying to get a better understanding of it. But I still have no intent of climbing poles. Quoted:
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OP, in a similar manor, say a line falls from the pole. A live line on the ground will not trip any fuses or breakers as the current flow, while signifigant for danger is not enough to likely ever open a safety device like a fuse or breaker. What happens is a ground fault as I alluded to in one of my previous posts. These are dangerous, especially at primary voltages and higher because of the voltage gradiant that exists. Now you have step potential, that is, where your feet are, each could be at two substantially different potentials (or voltages) and that difference in potential could have lethal consequnces with the currents that could flow into and out of the body. I've seen some interesting training on bringing the workspace on a pole to the same potential as well, so that the lineman is protected in his potential envelope. I don't climb poles (or turn wrenches, or drive a crane or anything else useful) so it was interesting but kinda in one ear and out the other. Now I'm trying to get a better understanding of it. But I still have no intent of climbing poles. At least that’s the way I was taught... |
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Same here. "It's off, the breaker is OFF, it can't POSSIBLY be hot. Your ticker's wrong, just cut the sumbitch so we can get outta here." *POW!* "...The fuck? How the hell did you do that?!" "Shut the fuck up and gimme YOUR linemans." I had just gotten that set of kleins, too. Quoted:
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If the breaker and wiring are properly sized, it should just result in a tripped breaker. Look, I have a proven track record of setting myself on fire in situations where a smart person, hell even a Nobel Laureate, would have said such an outcome was impossible. Thus, I'm very cautious around electricity and fire, and especially electricity that is on fire. "It's off, the breaker is OFF, it can't POSSIBLY be hot. Your ticker's wrong, just cut the sumbitch so we can get outta here." *POW!* "...The fuck? How the hell did you do that?!" "Shut the fuck up and gimme YOUR linemans." I had just gotten that set of kleins, too. |
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Shit. Bro, I don't even do V = IR to see how many amps are going to be pulled. I just post. It's like shooting from the hip. But safer. Yeah, I was seriously surprised by how many people are just milling around you at any given time, after accidentally shooting that one, I just don't do that anymore. Look, I have a proven track record of setting myself on fire in situations where a smart person, hell even a Nobel Laureate, would have said such an outcome was impossible. Thus, I'm very cautious around electricity and fire, and especially electricity that is on fire. |
| That's a pretty damn cool picture. I like the nut just to the left of the glowing nut, looks like it caught about a half of a thread. |
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This. Not a joke either, it's how I no shit got my worms when I went fishing as a kid. |
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Once I saw a co-worker drive a ground rod right through a buried cable that was feeding power to a mobile home. The only way that this error was discovered was that suddenly all power to the trailer went away. And then he whipped out his hazardous voltage detector and sure enough, the ground rod was energized. In that case the protocol was to safety tape off the area for X feet around it (I don't recall the distance) and call the power company because they'd have to pull the pole breaker before the underground cable can be repaired or replaced. It wasn't pulling enough amps to drop the pole breaker. But after a while the paint on the top of the ground rod driver started to brown from the heat generated by the electrified ground rod. |
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I'm always amazed by the number of people who work in electrical design and maintenance who don't know the how or why of these types of questions. The grounding electrode has no bearing on tripping the breaker. The purpose of the grounding electrode and grounding electrode conductor is to connect the separately derived system/transformer grounded conductor or equipment to ground (earth), to limit the voltage imposed by line surges and to stabilize the transformer secondary voltage to ground during normal operation. |
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I'm always amazed by the number of people who work in electrical design and maintenance who don't know the how or why of these types of questions. The grounding electrode has no bearing on tripping the breaker. The purpose of the grounding electrode and grounding electrode conductor is to connect the separately derived system/transformer grounded conductor or equipment to ground (earth), to limit the voltage imposed by line surges and to stabilize the transformer secondary voltage to ground during normal operation.
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Same here. "It's off, the breaker is OFF, it can't POSSIBLY be hot. Your ticker's wrong, just cut the sumbitch so we can get outta here." *POW!* "...The fuck? How the hell did you do that?!" "Shut the fuck up and gimme YOUR linemans." I had just gotten that set of kleins, too. Quoted:
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If the breaker and wiring are properly sized, it should just result in a tripped breaker. Look, I have a proven track record of setting myself on fire in situations where a smart person, hell even a Nobel Laureate, would have said such an outcome was impossible. Thus, I'm very cautious around electricity and fire, and especially electricity that is on fire. "It's off, the breaker is OFF, it can't POSSIBLY be hot. Your ticker's wrong, just cut the sumbitch so we can get outta here." *POW!* "...The fuck? How the hell did you do that?!" "Shut the fuck up and gimme YOUR linemans." I had just gotten that set of kleins, too. |
 Ground Rod Fault Current Test Not remotely close to what you asked, but it is neat. We don't use temp ground rods anymore.
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To a ll that said big explosion blah blah blah. Bullshit! If it generates a tiny spark then you've done good. How else am I going to find the unmarked neutral on a tsaw? Well I could buzz for continuity on the two line conductors and figure the only one left over is my neutral! But where's the fun in that? It will not do a dang thing. All day everyday I will flash the neutral against the secondary bushing of a transformer when the neutral only goes to a ground rod . |
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Picture this: Two 500’ spools of #12 THHN connected together to make it an overall length of 1000’. Connect a cord plug to the two ends of this 1000’ coil of #12. Plug it into a 120v receptacle! What happens ?? Quoted:
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On the vast majority of ground electrode installations? Nothing happens. Most ground electrodes are fairly high impedance connections to the earth. There are ways to design, install, and test low impedance ground connections. Two 500’ spools of #12 THHN connected together to make it an overall length of 1000’. Connect a cord plug to the two ends of this 1000’ coil of #12. Plug it into a 120v receptacle! What happens ?? |
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OP, in a similar manor, say a line falls from the pole. A live line on the ground will not trip any fuses or breakers as the current flow, while signifigant for danger is not enough to likely ever open a safety device like a fuse or breaker. What happens is a ground fault as I alluded to in one of my previous posts. These are dangerous, especially at primary voltages and higher because of the voltage gradiant that exists. Now you have step potential, that is, where your feet are, each could be at two substantially different potentials (or voltages) and that difference in potential could have lethal consequnces with the currents that could flow into and out of the body. I have a cool piece of glass made from a concrete sidewalk . A #6 solid copper primary wire 12kv, 7200 volts behind a 65 amp line fuse broke and lay on the sidewalk. It burned through the concrete and made some nice chunks of glass. |
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Yep, I've been taught to hop away from any downed lines due to step potential. I've seen some interesting training on bringing the workspace on a pole to the same potential as well, so that the lineman is protected in his potential envelope. I don't climb poles (or turn wrenches, or drive a crane or anything else useful) so it was interesting but kinda in one ear and out the other. Now I'm trying to get a better understanding of it. But I still have no intent of climbing poles. Quoted:
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OP, in a similar manor, say a line falls from the pole. A live line on the ground will not trip any fuses or breakers as the current flow, while signifigant for danger is not enough to likely ever open a safety device like a fuse or breaker. What happens is a ground fault as I alluded to in one of my previous posts. These are dangerous, especially at primary voltages and higher because of the voltage gradiant that exists. Now you have step potential, that is, where your feet are, each could be at two substantially different potentials (or voltages) and that difference in potential could have lethal consequnces with the currents that could flow into and out of the body. I've seen some interesting training on bringing the workspace on a pole to the same potential as well, so that the lineman is protected in his potential envelope. I don't climb poles (or turn wrenches, or drive a crane or anything else useful) so it was interesting but kinda in one ear and out the other. Now I'm trying to get a better understanding of it. But I still have no intent of climbing poles. Fuck that stupid shit. |
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Quoted: Equipotential ground. Fuck that stupid shit. Lightning hit a shielded pole blowing the top out. To make repairs to get it back on, I climbed up, installed my personal protective grounds and began moving the shield to the arm. I suspect that lighting struck somewhere along the line, it crackled and my hair stood up, but I didn't suffer any kind of shock. Would it have done the same with traditional grounds? Maybe. Since it happened while I had my EPZ installed it gave me more faith in the method. |
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Quoted: I am not an electrician nor do I claim any ability to know wiring. That's why watching Mike Holt learn me up on grounding ended up very different than I expected. Watch the first 1:15 of this video-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNZC782SzAQ |
| Neat! Why buy an inductive heater to remove those stuck nuts. Just create a dead short! |
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Once I get my back fixed, I will rig up a wire and use a paperclip or a single strand of similarly sized wire as an inline fuse and ground it and see what happens to that.
I'll put an amp meter on it and film it all and post it. 
So imagine this. A 110V plug on one end, length of 10 gauge wire, a switch next, another length of 10 gauge wire, a home made inline fuse made from a single strand of the 10 gauge wire, and another length of wire attached to a clamp. When I ran the wire to my well house at my farm, I was going to just run two 110V legs for 220 to power the pump and ground it at the well with a rod. But I decided I needed a light to keep it from freezing occasionally, so I decided to rob power from one of the legs for a light and so I had to go ahead and run a neutral to complete the 110V circuit. I didn't even think about that when we started discussing this. In fact I think I will see if you can even power a light bulb instead of the inline fuse. |
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Quoted: I have spend hours trying to get the safety guys (of all places generating plants. Seriously it is always generating plants that can't get it) to understand that grounding the generator on a pressure washer via a ground rod provides the path that would allow the operator to get shocked that would not exist otherwise. |
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@SCW Here's a link to a copy of it http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/pdf/Portable%20Generators%20and%20OSHA%20Construction%20Standards%203-05%20(1).pdf http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/pdf/Portable%20Generators%20and%20OSHA%20Construction%20Standards%203-05%20(1).pdf See if that one will work. I would have loved to have had a copy of that to send people back in the day. It is hard to get people to understand this kind of stuff. The other one is boiler codes. Every now and then I run into a city inspector that wants to hassle a customer about their pressure washer burner not having a boiler inspection. There is an exemption that it is hard to get some people to understand. |
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Quoted: Yours didn't work. http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/pdf/Portable%20Generators%20and%20OSHA%20Construction%20Standards%203-05%20(1).pdf See if that one will work. I would have loved to have had a copy of that to send people back in the day. It is hard to get people to understand this kind of stuff. The other one is boiler codes. Every now and then I run into a city inspector that wants to hassle a customer about their pressure washer burner not having a boiler inspection. There is an exemption that it is hard to get some people to understand. |