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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:28:06 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am in a armor unit, we traded in our 68s for ACOGs when we kept breaking 68s in sponson boxes. Now we break too many ACOGs so no rifles have them mounted now. 
We broke lots and lots of optics in Iraq. Unfortunately we were there during the tail end and I had to send my Armorer to Baghdad for 1 for 1 replacements.  Whats a sponson box? |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:32:02 PM EDT
[#2]
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Having shot expert with both irons and RCOs I can assure you they are exactly the same. If you can shoot with a scope you can shoot with irons. I don't know why some of you guys act like using irons is some wizard like skill. Put the little stick in the middle of the circle. Boom now you know how to use irons sights. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Anyone else know about this? Iron sights are not taught in USMC boot camp. Source: Father of a Marine My son joined 2013, they shot optics only. He was so proud to qual " expert". I'm proud of him regardless but the new"expert" is not the same as the old IMO. Having shot expert with both irons and RCOs I can assure you they are exactly the same. If you can shoot with a scope you can shoot with irons. I don't know why some of you guys act like using irons is some wizard like skill. Put the little stick in the middle of the circle. Boom now you know how to use irons sights. Yeah, what was I think thinking. Reticle + target to line up vs Rear sight + front sight + target. And magnification doesn't help any either. Guess the video games kids play growing up is the reason for the higher number of " Experts" now.
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:33:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whats a sponson box? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am in a armor unit, we traded in our 68s for ACOGs when we kept breaking 68s in sponson boxes. Now we break too many ACOGs so no rifles have them mounted now.
We broke lots and lots of optics in Iraq. Unfortunately we were there during the tail end and I had to send my Armorer to Baghdad for 1 for 1 replacements. Whats a sponson box? The boxes on the side of the turret and one in the hull. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:35:24 PM EDT
[#4]
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Irons or optics, the fundamentals of shooting remain the same. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:37:40 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you qual with your own shit if its the same model as issued stuff? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: When ACOGs were limited to only a couple per squad, when I was in the Army way back in 2002-2005. You were looked upon as a cheater, almost, if you used an ACOG for qualification. Guys really envied the ones that got ACOGs issued to them. lol That's something that always confused me. I remember seeing soldiers with just a matech buis in AFG and thought how lame that would be. Is it common for soldiers to buy their own optics? If I got stuck deploying with only a buis I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money on an acog. Most guys in a unit will use what's issued to them. But there are a few people that will buy their own optics. Can you qual with your own shit if its the same model as issued stuff? Yeah. I had an EOTech for about a year that I carried on my M4. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:38:38 PM EDT
[#6]
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they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Exactly. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:41:38 PM EDT
[#7]
It's been that way since 2008-2009.
I was in coaches course when they were thinking about switching to iron sights to RCO for qualifications. I qual'd with irons and RCO back to back and had to write an essay to be sent up the chain on what our opinion was. I basically noted how important the fundamentals of using iron sights were, and how important the use of the RCO was. Qualifications on known distance would give good practice and training with iron sights, and the RCO would have equal training and practice on the combat marksmanship table. I also said there should be more unknown distance courses out to 500 or 600 meters to implement the RCO's full capability. For the record, I did better on known distance with iron sights. Not sure if my RCO was broken. I know my fundamentals, and I know it wasn't me throwing my shots off with the RCO. at 200 and 300, I was shooting fine. but at 500, my impacts were waaayy off target consistently. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:43:29 PM EDT
[#8]
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Optics are standard equipment anymore. They do everything irons do but better and are much more reliable today than in years past. That said I still think irons need to be taught but I wouldn't waste too much time on them. Frank Proctor doesn't run any irons on his guns. Skip to 6:30 
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:45:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Like you would need to teach a Marine how to put a peg in a hole...I am sure if the ACOG fails the fundamental fundementals are still in tact...
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:45:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Optics are more reliable than iron sights. It can be argued that no one has ever had an optic go down and switched to iron in a combat situation. Rounds and time spent learning the more difficult and less effective irons could be spent on more advanced marksmanship using the issued optic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My sons best friend just got home from Paris Island. He was telling us lots of funny stories and answering questions from my son, who ships off in June of 17. His friend had gone shooting with us several times prior to enlisting and thanked us for at least giving him a basic familiarization with the AR type rifle, as it made him more comfortable and confident. He had qualified expert and my son asked for specifics, IE whether he had to qualify with the iron sights in addition to the ACOG. His friend said they never used the iron sights at all, and all qualification shooting was with the ACOG. I kind of figured iron sights to be just as important as optics as they are less likely to fail. Anyone else know about this? I'm just kind of surprised. Optics are more reliable than iron sights. It can be argued that no one has ever had an optic go down and switched to iron in a combat situation. Rounds and time spent learning the more difficult and less effective irons could be spent on more advanced marksmanship using the issued optic. I've personally broken 2 ACOGs. A few guys in my squad also broke an ACOG. They are well built, no doubt. But we often hung our rear iron sight under the rail during training. They got beat up alot. but they still functioned flawlessly. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:45:19 PM EDT
[#11]
In Iraq, I got knocked to the ground by an RPG blast. Landed on my face and smashed my nose. Got blood all over the glass of my EoTech; couldn't see through it. I flipped the throw lever, jammed it in my dump pouch, and switched to irons.
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:45:53 PM EDT
[#12]
It ain't 1968 anymore. I run BUIS but only because they're cheap, light, and fold out of the way. I have no expectation of ever needing them. I might not feel that way if I was running an optic that I was issued in a used state, or of course, if I was running a substandard optic.
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:45:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, what was I think thinking. Reticle + target to line up vs Rear sight + front sight + target. And magnification doesn't help any either. Guess the video games kids play growing up is the reason for the higher number of " Experts" now.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Anyone else know about this? Iron sights are not taught in USMC boot camp. Source: Father of a Marine My son joined 2013, they shot optics only. He was so proud to qual " expert". I'm proud of him regardless but the new"expert" is not the same as the old IMO. Having shot expert with both irons and RCOs I can assure you they are exactly the same. If you can shoot with a scope you can shoot with irons. I don't know why some of you guys act like using irons is some wizard like skill. Put the little stick in the middle of the circle. Boom now you know how to use irons sights. Yeah, what was I think thinking. Reticle + target to line up vs Rear sight + front sight + target. And magnification doesn't help any either. Guess the video games kids play growing up is the reason for the higher number of " Experts" now.
There are still people unq'ing with optics. The ACOG isn't a sniper scope. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:48:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In Iraq, I got knocked to the ground by an RPG blast. Landed on my face and smashed my nose. Got blood all over the glass of my EoTech; couldn't see through it. I flipped the throw lever, jammed it in my dump pouch, and switched to irons. It wasn't tied down? 
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:48:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Use the dot on their monitors. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not good. When Captain Price detonates the EMP over D.C., how will they put rounds on Ivan? Use the dot on their monitors. Or because ACOGs aren't electronic  |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:49:24 PM EDT
[#16]
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They better be comfortable using both. Optics can get damaged in combat. If shit goes down that's bad enough to knock out an ACOG, the rifle and/or the man attached to it is going to be taken out, too. Optics have come a long way since the days of your Fed-Mart Tasco being taken out by falling over onto the garage floor. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:49:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It wasn't tied down? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In Iraq, I got knocked to the ground by an RPG blast. Landed on my face and smashed my nose. Got blood all over the glass of my EoTech; couldn't see through it. I flipped the throw lever, jammed it in my dump pouch, and switched to irons. It wasn't tied down? lol |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 11:02:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My son joined 2013, they shot optics only. He was so proud to qual " expert". I'm proud of him regardless but the new"expert" is not the same as the old IMO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Anyone else know about this? Iron sights are not taught in USMC boot camp. Source: Father of a Marine My son joined 2013, they shot optics only. He was so proud to qual " expert". I'm proud of him regardless but the new"expert" is not the same as the old IMO. It's better because he's more effective in combat. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 11:05:26 PM EDT
[#20]
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There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. Irons can be damaged as well. I once helped pry a M16A1's barrel out of the track on one of our M88A1's. They may be a bit more durable than an ACOG, but they are not indestructible. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 11:06:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The last group of Marines (at least from PI), did iron sights around 2011, iirc. I taught at MCT, and those that used the RCO in recruit training did much better at the MCT marksmanship package. We still taught a class on iron sight theory for BUIS/machine guns, and for a time also taught BUIS live fire. Later, we simply did the iron sight theory class, and had SDOs and MGOs on the machine gun range. I did some research to see if I could find a confirmed use of BUIS in combat, and never could. Am I taking crazy pills? Did anyone freaking out over BUIS just skip over what I wrote? A class is taught. It's short ant totally exhaustive. No matter what's on our service rifle, iron sights are still on M9s, LAAWs, and AT-4s. If you feel like stretching recruit training for another two weeks, it could be taught, but in reality, there's about a thousand things more useful to teach, and the Corps would pick none of them. RCOs (ACOGs) are very durable. The vast majority are broken through misuse (cue the private scrubbing his lenses with a dirty armory rag, or the idiots still teaching to mechanically zero it first, or hitting it between sight adjustments). When the study was done to select RCOs over iron sights, Table I, known distance range was shot concurrently with RCO and irons in separate groups at both MCRD and TBS. RCOs wound up averaging about 5 points higher. They are not parallax free. Sight alignment/scope shadow is still important. I qual'd with both irons and RCOs multiple times apiece. When I deployed, I had a BUIS and RCO. Both were zeroed. Want to know what's more concerning? In 2014, I asked the base gate guards, who were carrying M4s with carry handles if they zeroed their irons. Nope. The kid didn't even shoot irons in recruit training. No clue how to use them. I worked with the MCT Battalion Gunner, so I let him know. Next week they had RCOs affixed. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 11:09:32 PM EDT
[#22]
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So.... does this officially make me "Old Corps"? ] I like how to guy's tattoo (in the cartoon above) appears to say "Old Crops." |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 11:22:35 PM EDT
[#23]
ACOGs are great, as long as you know how to use them. Iron sights are great, as long as you know how to use them. Even EOTechs are okay, if you know how to use them.
On a daily occurrence I either witness or read the range reports of killers failing their M-4 qual's. This includes PSS, DDLs, SLs and DDMs that make six figures for a living. Those 100 yard quals are tough for the newer generation sometimes. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:22:36 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I qual'd in boot camp with an M16A2 in 2007. ACOG's are grunt tough. Irons are slower and suck in low light. Get over it grandpa we're modern day warfighters and fuck your nostalgia. Most service members aren't gun guys, even infantry. As a 0311 we were using optics as soon as we hit SOI. We knew our weapons and optics. In the Army as an 11B, most guys only used throughout Aimpoint or irons. I had to give hip pocket classes on using the M68 or ACOG and they had a hard time grasping the what I was putting down. The 240, SAW, and M2 still have ironsome mostly. Every Light Infantry, Airborne Infantry, and Airmobile unit was issued Aimpoints in the late 1990s. Ranger Regiment was using them already in the early-mid 1990s. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:49:13 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In Iraq, I got knocked to the ground by an RPG blast. Landed on my face and smashed my nose. Got blood all over the glass of my EoTech; couldn't see through it. I flipped the throw lever, jammed it in my dump pouch, and switched to irons. One technique I've seen and used is to spit a mouthful of camelbak onto the optic to cleanse it quickly. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:50:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every Light Infantry, Airborne Infantry, and Airmobile unit was issued Aimpoints in the late 1990s. Ranger Regiment was using them already in the early-mid 1990s. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I qual'd in boot camp with an M16A2 in 2007. ACOG's are grunt tough. Irons are slower and suck in low light. Get over it grandpa we're modern day warfighters and fuck your nostalgia. Most service members aren't gun guys, even infantry. As a 0311 we were using optics as soon as we hit SOI. We knew our weapons and optics. In the Army as an 11B, most guys only used throughout Aimpoint or irons. I had to give hip pocket classes on using the M68 or ACOG and they had a hard time grasping the what I was putting down. The 240, SAW, and M2 still have ironsome mostly. Every Light Infantry, Airborne Infantry, and Airmobile unit was issued Aimpoints in the late 1990s. Ranger Regiment was using them already in the early-mid 1990s. I'm guessing he was Mech or NG infantry....some of those units still have A2s.... |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:02:00 PM EDT
[#27]
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I miss my .30cal. 1903 Rifle......  As well you should ! |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:04:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One technique I've seen and used is to spit a mouthful of camelbak onto the optic to cleanse it quickly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In Iraq, I got knocked to the ground by an RPG blast. Landed on my face and smashed my nose. Got blood all over the glass of my EoTech; couldn't see through it. I flipped the throw lever, jammed it in my dump pouch, and switched to irons. One technique I've seen and used is to spit a mouthful of camelbak onto the optic to cleanse it quickly. I've been hoping for awhile now that this technology: 
filters down into the combat optics world. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:04:52 PM EDT
[#29]
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That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. In San Diego 4 years ago they were taught both and qualified with acog. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:06:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ACOGs are great, as long as you know how to use them. Iron sights are great, as long as you know how to use them. Even EOTechs are okay, if you know how to use them. On a daily occurrence I either witness or read the range reports of killers failing their M-4 qual's. This includes PSS, DDLs, SLs and DDMs that make six figures for a living. Those 100 yard quals are tough for the newer generation sometimes. I'd hazard to guess an ACOG is tougher and more reliable thanirone sights were 100 years ago. I still like the idea of a backup - modern systems really only allow this now where it was not an option then. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:06:34 PM EDT
[#31]
On my first trip over, I broke my BUIS in a few months.
The second time, I broke my BUIS before a month was done. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:07:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I heard that it's not because the Marine Corps wanted to, but because all their iron sights ended up on eBay. 
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:10:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In Iraq, I got knocked to the ground by an RPG blast. Landed on my face and smashed my nose. Got blood all over the glass of my EoTech; couldn't see through it. I flipped the throw lever, jammed it in my dump pouch, and switched to irons. That does bring up a good point. The optic doesn't have to be destroyed to be unusable. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:20:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Former Marine myself, I'm fine with this. There's lots of things we don't teach anymore, because technology, tactics and warfare advance.
In a modern military like ours, the likelihood that a Marine will ever have to rely on backup irons in a life and death situation involving the type of shooting taught on the old KD ranges is nowhere near the probability levels that would justify the extensive iron sights training we received back in the day. Optics are reliable, and easily swapped out. We fight with optics now, 99.9999999999999999% of the time. Training should reflect that. Am I glad I had to shoot at 500 with irons? Yes. If I were serving as a young Private TODAY would I want to spend the bulk of my time in bootcamp learning to shoot irons? No, I'd want the most training I could get on my primary systems, which for the Marines, is an ACOG equipped rifle. Period. The Marines aren't there to teach you to be a great shot for the rest of your life, they are there to teach you to be an effective combat machine. In the current system with the current technology used, that means knowing how to wield a carbine with an ACOG on top. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:21:01 PM EDT
[#35]
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These threads make me miss R0N. I was wondering why I hadn't seen him post. Where'd he go? |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:24:14 PM EDT
[#36]
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First cursive writing; now iron sights.What is happening to America Cursive is a stupid thing to waste time teaching. I remember spending hours every week in grade school leaning it. Once we were deemed proficient we were then told never to use it on tests and all assignments were to be in print or type.
The time wasted on teaching cursive would be better spent on typing proficiency. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:31:53 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not good. When Captain Price detonates the EMP over D.C., how will they put rounds on Ivan? Explain again how an EMP is supposed to effect the fiber optics and tritium lamp in an ACOG? 
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:32:53 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems pretty short sighted to put all your eggs in one basket. Both irons and optics should be taught and both should be included in qualification. Prior to optics being introduced, everything was in one basket as well. Just a different basket. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:33:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was wondering why I hadn't seen him post. Where'd he go? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: These threads make me miss R0N. I was wondering why I hadn't seen him post. Where'd he go? All the free thinking people who took a class hosted probably by a coastie or similar who now think they are subject matter experts on everything ran him off. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:48:51 PM EDT
[#40]
In Basic, we did a legit zero on M68s and battlefield zero on the irons.
Never needed to use irons and don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal as many of you seem to think, but I still have my team zero them separate from optics just in case. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:49:30 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2008 @ Ft Benning we qualified with irons ( B 2/47 ) the infantry guys qualified with either CCOs or ACOGs, not sure if they trained with irons at all. BULLDOGS |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:52:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In Basic, we did a legit zero on M68s and battlefield zero on the irons. Never needed to use irons and don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal as many of you seem to think, but I still have my team zero them separate from optics just in case. How far did you shoot? |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 12:59:17 PM EDT
[#43]
The fuck... I may have been a jet engine mechanic, but I still earned my 5th Expert award...
Irons first, then toys... |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 1:00:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The fuck... I may have been a jet engine mechanic, but I still earned my 5th Expert award... Irons first, then toys... Irons are the toys. Effectiveness first, then"oh, shit!" backups. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 1:07:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. Have you ever seen an ACOG break? Not being facetious, im genuinely curious. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 1:08:45 PM EDT
[#46]
I was trained on irons, but never used them when I got to my unit. It was all RCOs
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Posted: 11/17/2016 1:09:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Irons are the toys. Effectiveness first, then"oh, shit!" backups. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The fuck... I may have been a jet engine mechanic, but I still earned my 5th Expert award... Irons first, then toys... Irons are the toys. Effectiveness first, then"oh, shit!" backups. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 1:12:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Talked to my friend who's son just did boot in San Diego graduated in October and they did a full day of irons then RCO.
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Posted: 11/17/2016 1:58:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2008 @ Ft Benning we qualified with irons ( B 2/47 ) the infantry guys qualified with either CCOs or ACOGs, not sure if they trained with irons at all. When I was there in 2008 I had to qual with irons before I could put a CCO on my rifle. (11B) |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 2:52:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Backups are kinda useless if you've never been taught the BASICS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The fuck... I may have been a jet engine mechanic, but I still earned my 5th Expert award... Irons first, then toys... Irons are the toys. Effectiveness first, then"oh, shit!" backups. Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
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