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Posted: 11/17/2016 2:58:39 PM EDT
[#1]
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me. 
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The fuck... I may have been a jet engine mechanic, but I still earned my 5th Expert award... Irons first, then toys... Irons are the toys. Effectiveness first, then"oh, shit!" backups. Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
Takes training to have the muscle memory and instincts to maintain a clear FSP on a blurry target, in the middle of a fight. The same is so of BAC, and shooting with both eyes open. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 3:06:34 PM EDT
[#2]
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Takes training to have the muscle memory and instincts to maintain a clear FSP on a blurry target, in the middle of a fight. The same is so of BAC, and shooting with both eyes open. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The fuck... I may have been a jet engine mechanic, but I still earned my 5th Expert award... Irons first, then toys... Irons are the toys. Effectiveness first, then"oh, shit!" backups. Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
Takes training to have the muscle memory and instincts to maintain a clear FSP on a blurry target, in the middle of a fight. The same is so of BAC, and shooting with both eyes open. Well in that case, when your scope breaks you might as well just give up and walk away in the middle of a fight instead of deploying irons. Because muscle memory and shit. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 3:08:31 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 11/17/2016 3:29:41 PM EDT
[#4]
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How far did you shoot? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In Basic, we did a legit zero on M68s and battlefield zero on the irons. Never needed to use irons and don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal as many of you seem to think, but I still have my team zero them separate from optics just in case. How far did you shoot? Don't remember shooting any further than 400m or so |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 3:33:11 PM EDT
[#5]
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In Basic, we did a legit zero on M68s and battlefield zero on the irons. Never needed to use irons and don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal as many of you seem to think, but I still have my team zero them separate from optics just in case. That sounds just about perfect to me. Teach them, zero them, maybe come up with a quick "irons qual" to do every once in a while. No sense spending a whole lot of time and ammo on irons in 2016. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 3:33:36 PM EDT
[#6]
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If shit goes down that's bad enough to knock out an ACOG, the rifle and/or the man attached to it is going to be taken out, too. Optics have come a long way since the days of your Fed-Mart Tasco being taken out by falling over onto the garage floor. This Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 3:38:18 PM EDT
[#7]
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Well in that case, when your scope breaks you might as well just give up and walk away in the middle of a fight instead of deploying irons. Because muscle memory and shit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Irons are the toys. Effectiveness first, then"oh, shit!" backups. Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
Takes training to have the muscle memory and instincts to maintain a clear FSP on a blurry target, in the middle of a fight. The same is so of BAC, and shooting with both eyes open. Well in that case, when your scope breaks you might as well just give up and walk away in the middle of a fight instead of deploying irons. Because muscle memory and shit. You aren't making any sense. Untrained people are just as capable of firing weapons and participating in a fight. They just aren't very effective. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 4:20:04 PM EDT
[#8]
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You aren't making any sense. Untrained people are just as capable of firing weapons and participating in a fight. They just aren't very effective. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
Takes training to have the muscle memory and instincts to maintain a clear FSP on a blurry target, in the middle of a fight. The same is so of BAC, and shooting with both eyes open. Well in that case, when your scope breaks you might as well just give up and walk away in the middle of a fight instead of deploying irons. Because muscle memory and shit. You aren't making any sense. Untrained people are just as capable of firing weapons and participating in a fight. They just aren't very effective. Untrained as in no training in firearms whatsoever, or untrained in the use of irons on a rifle? How ineffective is "...aren't very effective", and compared to what? Anybody who has gone through boot camp and been trained on ACOG equipped rifle will do just fine. Shooting an irons equipped pistol is plenty familiarization. Marines still have to fire a pistol in boot camp, don't they? In the end, some people are better shooters than others and some people adapt better than others. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 4:24:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Irons or optics, the fundamentals of shooting remain the same. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 4:31:34 PM EDT
[#10]
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Yep, same basic thing, if you've learned one, you've learned the other. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Irons or optics, the fundamentals of shooting remain the same. Fundamentals, yes. Irons vs the ACOG stadia lines, fuck no. USMC has always done their job with dudes at extended distances. This is 2016. We have cooler shit than iron sights that are basic issue shit, not special at all. If you have a week to train 18-19 year olds w/ acogs to shoot, you'll teach them how to use the latest/greatest/readily available shit. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 4:35:50 PM EDT
[#11]
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My sons best friend just got home from Paris Island. He was telling us lots of funny stories and answering questions from my son, who ships off in June of 17. His friend had gone shooting with us several times prior to enlisting and thanked us for at least giving him a basic familiarization with the AR type rifle, as it made him more comfortable and confident. He had qualified expert and my son asked for specifics, IE whether he had to qualify with the iron sights in addition to the ACOG. His friend said they never used the iron sights at all, and all qualification shooting was with the ACOG. I kind of figured iron sights to be just as important as optics as they are less likely to fail. Anyone else know about this? I'm just kind of surprised. I am not surprised ammunition cost money TRADOC keeps the budget tight does the USMC issue rifles with BUIS 
i I know when we were issued the aim point CCOs in 2002 we were expected to keep the carry handle in our ruck with our bayonet. But think about it you have 200ish men per company so you zero the BUIS zero the ACOG then qualify. even if only 12 rounds are needed to zero you need 2400 rounds double it buy zeroing twice.now 4800 rounds that is one compant Parris island in June has something like 9-12 companies training. the real military is very conservative, it is SOCOM that acts like sailors in port. even line combat battalions in the 82nd ABN receive very little marksmanship training even less live or blank fire non range training. most of the ammo goes to the crew serves even then it is laughable how little they get. don't forget the IRS ammo order 2 years ago that gave irs agents a higher annual round count than an infantrymen got for training. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 4:40:45 PM EDT
[#12]
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With their ACOG's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not good. When Captain Price detonates the EMP over D.C., how will they put rounds on Ivan? With their ACOG's. 
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Posted: 11/17/2016 4:45:12 PM EDT
[#13]
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2008 @ Ft Benning we qualified with irons ( B 2/47 ) the infantry guys qualified with either CCOs or ACOGs, not sure if they trained with irons at all. 2010 army infantry ft Benning I qualified with irons. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 4:47:18 PM EDT
[#14]
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First cursive writing; now iron sights.What is happening to America Oh the military still teaches cursive it is the finial skill taught at ANOC for code makers in intelligence. 
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:01:21 PM EDT
[#15]
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Untrained as in no training in firearms whatsoever, or untrained in the use of irons on a rifle? How ineffective is "...aren't very effective", and compared to what? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You aren't making any sense. Untrained people are just as capable of firing weapons and participating in a fight. They just aren't very effective. Untrained as in no training in firearms whatsoever, or untrained in the use of irons on a rifle? How ineffective is "...aren't very effective", and compared to what? This is basic stuff. Anybody who has gone through boot camp and been trained on ACOG equipped rifle will do just fine. Shooting an irons equipped pistol is plenty familiarization. Marines still have to fire a pistol in boot camp, don't they? In the end, some people are better shooters than others and some people adapt better than others. Yes. And those variables are precisely why we have marksmanship training. Have you ever fired a rifle in combat? With irons? Optics? |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:03:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Why the fuck would you teach someone to shoot using an utterly inferior sight?
You can still teach fundamentals with ACOGs |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:06:02 PM EDT
[#17]
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That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. Pretty much the only way an ACOG is going to be unusable is if it takes a round or you get blown up. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:10:31 PM EDT
[#18]
I just got out of June of 2015. I was infantry. I never met a single Marine who didn't know how to use irons. That being said, none of use, not a single person in my battalion was issued a back up iron sight. We all had an RCO and that was it. I have never seen an RCO go down. We put ours through hell and back. No fancy LaRue mounts, just the stock mount.
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:10:46 PM EDT
[#19]
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
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The fuck... I may have been a jet engine mechanic, but I still earned my 5th Expert award... Irons first, then toys... Irons are the toys. Effectiveness first, then"oh, shit!" backups. Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
Irons have some degree of parralax suppression related to aperture size and ergo putting the post in the middle of the hole is not necessary for quality sight alignment. Instead focus on target and front sight post alignment. Have you ever used irons before? I kid I kid. But on a realistic note irons have the following concepts that can be explored further: sight radius and its relation to depth of field, apertue size as it relates to parralax suppression, and some people don't even use the rear sight properly from the photos I see here and there. There are lots of complexities in an iron sight setup vs the simplicity of an optic that makes irons a more difficult proposition with far more myth perpetuated in their use than necessary. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:26:14 PM EDT
[#20]
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That is surprising. We train with both. Optics go down. Know how to use your backups. You're not ripping your ACOG off in the middle of a fight. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:37:21 PM EDT
[#21]
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You're not ripping your ACOG off in the middle of a fight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That is surprising. We train with both. Optics go down. Know how to use your backups. You're not ripping your ACOG off in the middle of a fight. Sure... Just give me 30 minutes to untwist and cut the bailing wire tie down that was mandated by Company SOP... Hopefully there is still someone to shoot. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:50:16 PM EDT
[#22]
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Sure... Just give me 30 minutes to untwist and cut the bailing wire tie down that was mandated by Company SOP... Hopefully there is still someone to shoot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That is surprising. We train with both. Optics go down. Know how to use your backups. You're not ripping your ACOG off in the middle of a fight. Sure... Just give me 30 minutes to untwist and cut the bailing wire tie down that was mandated by Company SOP... Hopefully there is still someone to shoot. Oh, I forgot about the damn zip ties |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:58:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Makes sense. Target shooting with irons is awesome. Trying to fight with them blows dicks. They are a relic of the past and in all honesty irons on rifles and carbines is pretty fucking silly in a world of ACOGs, M68s, and IR.
In actual combat and not a carbine course you don't actually see the enemy, like, ever. All rifles get used for most of the time is to make enough wizzy cracky noises near the enemy to get them to either go the fuck away or stay put long enough for somebody to kill them with a 240 or Mortars or something that actually produces casualties on targets farther away than across the room. High quality zeroed BUIS make sense on an HD carbine, not on a carbine in a huge pile of carbines covered in lasers and ACOGs supported by IDF, CAS, armor, and so on. Training time is finite and shouldn't be wasted on stuff that hasn't been useful since probably 1998. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 6:58:54 PM EDT
[#24]
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Yeah, what was I think thinking. Reticle + target to line up vs Rear sight + front sight + target. And magnification doesn't help any either. Guess the video games kids play growing up is the reason for the higher number of " Experts" now. 
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Anyone else know about this? Iron sights are not taught in USMC boot camp. Source: Father of a Marine My son joined 2013, they shot optics only. He was so proud to qual " expert". I'm proud of him regardless but the new"expert" is not the same as the old IMO. Having shot expert with both irons and RCOs I can assure you they are exactly the same. If you can shoot with a scope you can shoot with irons. I don't know why some of you guys act like using irons is some wizard like skill. Put the little stick in the middle of the circle. Boom now you know how to use irons sights. Yeah, what was I think thinking. Reticle + target to line up vs Rear sight + front sight + target. And magnification doesn't help any either. Guess the video games kids play growing up is the reason for the higher number of " Experts" now.
So you'd rather have the "expert" badge be a more limited/prestigious thing than having more Marines who can shoot that well? Makes sense. 
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Posted: 11/17/2016 7:05:18 PM EDT
[#25]
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Makes sense. Target shooting with irons is awesome. Trying to fight with them blows dicks. They are a relic of the past and in all honesty irons on rifles and carbines is pretty fucking silly in a world of ACOGs, M68s, and IR. In actual combat and not a carbine course you don't actually see the enemy, like, ever. All rifles get used for most of the time is to make enough wizzy cracky noises near the enemy to get them to either go the fuck away or stay put long enough for somebody to kill them with a 240 or Mortars or something that actually produces casualties on targets farther away than across the room. High quality zeroed BUIS make sense on an HD carbine, not on a carbine in a huge pile of carbines covered in lasers and ACOGs supported by IDF, CAS, armor, and so on. Training time is finite and shouldn't be wasted on stuff that hasn't been useful since probably 1998. Don't forget night. Shooting irons at night sucks, actually shooting irons in anything but bright sunny weather sucks. Oh and irons suck when the sun is to your back and you get some glare off the rear peep. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 10:07:10 PM EDT
[#26]
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. No doubt optics are superior but there is always that freak thing that happens to your optics that renders them useless. In a combat situation I would prefer to have a backup and know how to employ it. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 10:25:01 PM EDT
[#27]
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That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. ... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. ... Uhhh, no, that's not how sights work. That is, however, a persistent myth in the Army that I am surprised to read in this forum. You can't just take any rifle, make the same adjustments off mechanical zero, and have "your" zero. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 10:29:38 PM EDT
[#28]
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That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. No doubt optics are superior but there is always that freak thing that happens to your optics that renders them useless. In a combat situation I would prefer to have a backup and know how to employ it. That's not how that works... |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 10:37:01 PM EDT
[#29]
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You're not ripping your ACOG off in the middle of a fight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That is surprising. We train with both. Optics go down. Know how to use your backups. You're not ripping your ACOG off in the middle of a fight. If you are able to pick any sighting system available today, but it has to be the only one, what will you pick? |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 10:42:56 PM EDT
[#30]
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I heard that it's not because the Marine Corps wanted to, but because all their iron sights ended up on eBay. rofl |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 10:47:27 PM EDT
[#31]
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My son entered the USMC in 2010, and still did iron sights at San Diego (Pendleton). When he did his tours, he used an optic. He reported that recruits as of about 2 yrs ago were no longer taught iron sight use.
Somehow, I think that makes a rifleman less skilled than a recruit who learned windage & elevation with irons. But what do I know...I am an old guy who just recently learned the benefits of a unity powered optic. 
Skilled at dialing with irons, sure? A useful skill? sure. An good competition? sure. but.... I don't think dialing carry handle knobs and taking long shots with irons is very common in combat these days. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:14:26 PM EDT
[#32]
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Uhhh, no, that's not how sights work. That is, however, a persistent myth in the Army that I am surprised to read in this forum. You can't just take any rifle, make the same adjustments off mechanical zero, and have "your" zero. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. ... Uhhh, no, that's not how sights work. That is, however, a persistent myth in the Army that I am surprised to read in this forum. You can't just take any rifle, make the same adjustments off mechanical zero, and have "your" zero. Didn't say it would be perfect. I said accurate as in accurate enough to hit a man sized target. I have done just this and qualified 39 out of 40. Qualification day and bolt broke on my rifle while verifying zero. Got a rifle off one of my squad mates after he came of the line, set it to mechanical zero, applied my zero to it and shot 39 out of 40. Maybe it was a fluke but it worked for me. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:21:30 PM EDT
[#33]
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Makes sense. Target shooting with irons is awesome. Trying to fight with them blows dicks. They are a relic of the past and in all honesty irons on rifles and carbines is pretty fucking silly in a world of ACOGs, M68s, and IR. In actual combat and not a carbine course you don't actually see the enemy, like, ever. All rifles get used for most of the time is to make enough wizzy cracky noises near the enemy to get them to either go the fuck away or stay put long enough for somebody to kill them with a 240 or Mortars or something that actually produces casualties on targets farther away than across the room. High quality zeroed BUIS make sense on an HD carbine, not on a carbine in a huge pile of carbines covered in lasers and ACOGs supported by IDF, CAS, armor, and so on. Training time is finite and shouldn't be wasted on stuff that hasn't been useful since probably 1998. yeah i have options, acogs etc but a lot of the time my hd blaster just has irons and a light. its simple and i aint missing across the room or yard lol hell i would be fine with just a front sight, honestly. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:21:34 PM EDT
[#34]
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Didn't say it would be perfect. I said accurate as in accurate enough to hit a man sized target. I have done just this and qualified 39 out of 40. Qualification day and bolt broke on my rifle while verifying zero. Got a rifle off one of my squad mates after he came of the line, set it to mechanical zero, applied my zero to it and shot 39 out of 40. Maybe it was a fluke but it worked for me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. ... Uhhh, no, that's not how sights work. That is, however, a persistent myth in the Army that I am surprised to read in this forum. You can't just take any rifle, make the same adjustments off mechanical zero, and have "your" zero. Didn't say it would be perfect. I said accurate as in accurate enough to hit a man sized target. I have done just this and qualified 39 out of 40. Qualification day and bolt broke on my rifle while verifying zero. Got a rifle off one of my squad mates after he came of the line, set it to mechanical zero, applied my zero to it and shot 39 out of 40. Maybe it was a fluke but it worked for me. If it was a rifle from the same delivery and all off the same lot, that sometimes can be expected. But that's because of the rifles, not the zero concept. I would suppose your squad mates zero wasn't too different from your own, unless he lined up the sights all fucky. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:25:49 PM EDT
[#35]
a lot of the 2 is 1 folks are leaving out that we have lasers for added aiming redundancy as well, and ya dont need to untwist your optic screws.
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:26:19 PM EDT
[#36]
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That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. No doubt optics are superior but there is always that freak thing that happens to your optics that renders them useless. In a combat situation I would prefer to have a backup and know how to employ it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. No doubt optics are superior but there is always that freak thing that happens to your optics that renders them useless. In a combat situation I would prefer to have a backup and know how to employ it. The fuck???!?!? 
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:51:30 PM EDT
[#37]
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Uhhh, no, that's not how sights work. That is, however, a persistent myth in the Army that I am surprised to read in this forum. You can't just take any rifle, make the same adjustments off mechanical zero, and have "your" zero. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. ... Uhhh, no, that's not how sights work. That is, however, a persistent myth in the Army that I am surprised to read in this forum. You can't just take any rifle, make the same adjustments off mechanical zero, and have "your" zero. Yeah, when I was in recovery, I had a weapon card for a M3A1 so for M16, cough, A1 qualification, I had to draw some random M16. Every time my battle sight zero changed. |
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Posted: 11/17/2016 11:52:45 PM EDT
[#38]
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If you are able to pick any sighting system available today, but it has to be the only one, what will you pick? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That is surprising. We train with both. Optics go down. Know how to use your backups. You're not ripping your ACOG off in the middle of a fight. If you are able to pick any sighting system available today, but it has to be the only one, what will you pick? I will start this sub-thread with "thermals on an M1". 
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Posted: 11/18/2016 12:00:14 AM EDT
[#39]
You only have two weeks to train recruits in boot camp how to shoot. It made sense to train recruits how to use irons in basic when most Marines used irons in the fleet. They taught optics to infantry when they went to SOI. Now, all Marines use optics as the primary system in the fleet.
Since you only have 2 weeks in boot, you use it to train on your primary aiming system. You can teach BUI in MCI and SOI for a few days. |
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Posted: 11/18/2016 12:40:33 AM EDT
[#40]
Marines Toughen Rifle Qualification
https://www.thebalance.com/marine-corps-toughens-rifle-qualification-3354415 Supposedly this just took effect 10/1/16 and involves some iron sight shooting if I read it correctly. |
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Posted: 11/18/2016 2:58:51 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The fuck???!?!?
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me.
That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. No doubt optics are superior but there is always that freak thing that happens to your optics that renders them useless. In a combat situation I would prefer to have a backup and know how to employ it. The fuck???!?!?
I've witnessed this being taught to Soldiers for nearly 25 years now. This kind of derp is rampant, and only scratches the surface. As Mark Twain famously observed, "it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." The Army is chock full of people who think they know a lot of things, and it gets passed down through generations. |
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Posted: 11/18/2016 4:36:13 AM EDT
[#42]
In my battalion not one M16A4 or M4 had BUIS. The guys that got blown up by IED's never had a broken ACOG.
In some 'freak' accident an ACOG breaks the Marine will just use his front sight post, while being supported by his team, or squad, or platoon, all with rifles and belt feds. In qualification, you still have to use the fundamentals or you'll miss.nothing changes about sight picture, cheek weld, breathing and trigger control. |
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Posted: 11/18/2016 6:29:17 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Marines Toughen Rifle Qualification https://www.thebalance.com/marine-corps-toughens-rifle-qualification-3354415 Supposedly this just took effect 10/1/16 and involves some iron sight shooting if I read it correctly. "There are four tables that are used in the new marksmanship program. Table one is fundamental marksmanship, which has Marines practicing using iron sights on the known-distance range. Table two includes three hours of classroom training, followed by practical application drills. Table three includes two to three days of classroom and live-fire training in close combat shooting. All basic Marines will be required to pass tables one through three in order to qualify. Table four, which is the advanced course, will be a requirement for all infantry Marines." |
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Posted: 11/18/2016 6:36:22 AM EDT
[#44]
The Acog once zeroed properly is superior to iron sights. It is just as robust / marine proof. But offers superior target auisition. As a marine who cherishes his expert badges, 1990, and learned with irons, I welcome this news. It's an advantage to be piping badguys at 400 every time rather than the AK or mosin badguys using the spray and pray.
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Posted: 11/18/2016 7:04:33 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Acog once zeroed properly is superior to iron sights. It is just as robust / marine proof. But offers superior target auisition. As a marine who cherishes his expert badges, 1990, and learned with irons, I welcome this news. It's an advantage to be piping badguys at 400 every time rather than the AK or mosin badguys using the spray and pray. With an ACOG you could repeatedly kill guys at 400 yards!!?? That is some shooting!! |
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Posted: 11/18/2016 7:17:18 AM EDT
[#46]
FBHO
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Posted: 11/18/2016 8:23:17 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With an ACOG you could repeatedly kill guys at 400 yards!!?? That is some shooting!! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Acog once zeroed properly is superior to iron sights. It is just as robust / marine proof. But offers superior target auisition. As a marine who cherishes his expert badges, 1990, and learned with irons, I welcome this news. It's an advantage to be piping badguys at 400 every time rather than the AK or mosin badguys using the spray and pray. With an ACOG you could repeatedly kill guys at 400 yards!!?? That is some shooting!! You seriously can't shoot.... if you are making that statement. 400m is nothing now adays. Shit child, I zero my shot guns at 100 and they even have optics. And to add.... What the fuck is that fantasy that the bullet does some mystical "not my fault " turn past 200-300m? It's a parabolic arc. Just put the rainbow on em. Shooting at distance is easier than shooting tiny groups. If you own an AR and it is inaccurate at 100-500m - the nut behind it is the problem 9x out of 10. The 10th is Some asshole with a 1/11 twist trying to stabilize 75gr projos who has never learned what twist rate is. |
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Posted: 11/18/2016 11:57:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. No doubt optics are superior but there is always that freak thing that happens to your optics that renders them useless. In a combat situation I would prefer to have a backup and know how to employ it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Put the fuckin' post in the middle of the fuckin' hole and set your fuckin' target on top. There, now you're fuckin' qualified on the fuckin' irons. Fuck. Some of you fuckin' guys think shooting fuckin' irons takes some kind of fuckin' superfuckin'powers. All this stupid on a gun forum concerns me. That only works if you know how to zero your irons. I still remember my battlesight zero. One click down four right. I can then take any properly mechanically zeroed M16A2 make those adjustments and accurately hit the target. No doubt optics are superior but there is always that freak thing that happens to your optics that renders them useless. In a combat situation I would prefer to have a backup and know how to employ it. You either never served, or were a clerk in the Air Force |
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Posted: 11/18/2016 12:05:12 PM EDT
[#49]
Did they also shitcan the map and compass in favor of GPS?
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Posted: 11/18/2016 12:05:50 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. |
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