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Posted: 1/17/2023 11:47:10 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Everyone bitching in here is probably just slow as fuck. It ain't the fucking gun, belt or mag pouches that make a good shooter. https://c.tenor.com/1owE2HYmzUQAAAAd/tenor.gif OK, I'll bite. If it ain't the fucking gun, belt or mag pouches - then why are we here arguing about subjectivity in rules for purpose built guns, belts, and mag pouches? If you don't need your seal club - don't bring it. Just come win with a gun from the store and the mag pouches that came with it. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 11:48:07 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely, there is supposed to be a low barrier to entry - both financially and otherwise. Every once in a while, someone purpose builds a gun (again, for a freaking IDPA match) in complete contradiction to the intent so that they can club some seals. Now, how this is handled will be far more subjective. Sorry about that; but again, no one will be dragging anyone from their house to the range. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Certain match shooters have pushed things into NASCAR territory. Your either a loser or a cheater. Some might defend that position saying it's human nature. One way to completely avoid this is requiring everybody utilize identical equipment. No exceptions. Define cheating. Best guess: Anything within the rule set that I can't afford. Absolutely, there is supposed to be a low barrier to entry - both financially and otherwise. Every once in a while, someone purpose builds a gun (again, for a freaking IDPA match) in complete contradiction to the intent so that they can club some seals. Now, how this is handled will be far more subjective. Sorry about that; but again, no one will be dragging anyone from their house to the range. Then why not make the rules cleaner / more restrictive to better uphold the intent? |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 11:49:11 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Define cheating. I only ask because IDPA has a tendency to call actions/gear/etc. "cheating" when it's perfectly legal but someone thinks it's too fast or to "gamey", whatever that is. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Certain match shooters have pushed things into NASCAR territory. Your either a loser or a cheater. Some might defend that position saying it's human nature. One way to completely avoid this is requiring everybody utilize identical equipment. No exceptions. Define cheating. I only ask because IDPA has a tendency to call actions/gear/etc. "cheating" when it's perfectly legal but someone thinks it's too fast or to "gamey", whatever that is.  It is simply a 2nd Gen S&W .45, sold as a SAO IPSC 10th anniversary commemorative. The slide mounted safety is simply a firing pin block. I've carried it numerous times as a CCW piece in my Galco shoulder rig. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 11:50:26 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if you live in an open carry state and your EDC is a race gun? I don't shoot IDPA, so I don't have a dog in the fight but the rule is extremely subjective. It seems like there would be an easier way to keep with the spirit of IDPA without making the rules so subjective. I forget where I heard but there is quote that I thought was both true and funny "All gun fights are open class affairs." IMO IDPA's main problem has always been that it is a game trying not to be a game. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 11:55:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely, there is supposed to be a low barrier to entry - both financially and otherwise. Every once in a while, someone purpose builds a gun (again, for a freaking IDPA match) in complete contradiction to the intent so that they can club some seals. Now, how this is handled will be far more subjective. Sorry about that; but again, no one will be dragging anyone from their house to the range. Now apply this same thinking to AR pistols. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 11:56:03 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then why not make the rules cleaner / more restrictive to better uphold the intent? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Certain match shooters have pushed things into NASCAR territory. Your either a loser or a cheater. Some might defend that position saying it's human nature. One way to completely avoid this is requiring everybody utilize identical equipment. No exceptions. Define cheating. Best guess: Anything within the rule set that I can't afford. Absolutely, there is supposed to be a low barrier to entry - both financially and otherwise. Every once in a while, someone purpose builds a gun (again, for a freaking IDPA match) in complete contradiction to the intent so that they can club some seals. Now, how this is handled will be far more subjective. Sorry about that; but again, no one will be dragging anyone from their house to the range. Then why not make the rules cleaner / more restrictive to better uphold the intent? I don't make the rules, subjective or not, so I can't answer that. There isn't much else to say that hasn't been said. Show up if you want - if IDPA and it's stupid insistence on trying to remain with the original intent are beneath you, then don't. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 11:57:39 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, I'll bite. If it ain't the fucking gun, belt or mag pouches - then why are we here arguing about subjectivity in rules for purpose built guns, belts, and mag pouches? If you don't need your seal club - don't bring it. Just come win with a gun from the store and the mag pouches that came with it. Because the gun you’re shooting can be completely legal in one area and deemed a “race gun” somewhere else. That’s why there are objective rules: So you can look at the rules and determine if your equipment is legal or not. Period, that’s it. You don’t need some dude with a BMI of 34 just making the determination based upon, “That there looks like one of them race guns!” |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 11:57:42 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did some GSSF matches with my GLOCK 42, specifically to challenge myself. Everyone else had tricked out G34s and G17Ls. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Me and a couple buds shot our daily carry guns at a USPSA style league match one time. If your goal is to test yourself or get better with your EDC, who cares if a dude with an open gun gets first place in a match? If you're shooting your EDC, why not sign up for production division instead of open division ? Honestly I don't remember what division we were put in. The point lm (trying) to make is that succeeding in your goals doesn't always mean winning the match. If you just want to test your skills with your edc, what other people are shooting is irrelevant. There are times I've shot matches that I knew was beyond my skill set and my goal was just not embarrassing myself. Even though I didn't win, at least I was successful in the goal I set. If you want to win, that's cool too, get in the race and win. GSSF has multiple classes. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:00:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everyone bitching in here is probably just slow as fuck. It ain't the fucking gun, belt or mag pouches that make a good shooter. I’m “slow as fuck.” But I’m faster with my comptac international & custom G17 than my stock 19 from IWB. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:07:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: GSSF has multiple classes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Me and a couple buds shot our daily carry guns at a USPSA style league match one time. If your goal is to test yourself or get better with your EDC, who cares if a dude with an open gun gets first place in a match? If you're shooting your EDC, why not sign up for production division instead of open division ? Honestly I don't remember what division we were put in. The point lm (trying) to make is that succeeding in your goals doesn't always mean winning the match. If you just want to test your skills with your edc, what other people are shooting is irrelevant. There are times I've shot matches that I knew was beyond my skill set and my goal was just not embarrassing myself. Even though I didn't win, at least I was successful in the goal I set. If you want to win, that's cool too, get in the race and win. GSSF has multiple classes. I know.... I just find it interesting that the majority of folks don't shoot guns like the G42. 
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:09:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know.... I just find it interesting that the majority of folks don't shoot guns like the G42. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Me and a couple buds shot our daily carry guns at a USPSA style league match one time. If your goal is to test yourself or get better with your EDC, who cares if a dude with an open gun gets first place in a match? If you're shooting your EDC, why not sign up for production division instead of open division ? Honestly I don't remember what division we were put in. The point lm (trying) to make is that succeeding in your goals doesn't always mean winning the match. If you just want to test your skills with your edc, what other people are shooting is irrelevant. There are times I've shot matches that I knew was beyond my skill set and my goal was just not embarrassing myself. Even though I didn't win, at least I was successful in the goal I set. If you want to win, that's cool too, get in the race and win. GSSF has multiple classes. I know.... I just find it interesting that the majority of folks don't shoot guns like the G42. Did you win a gun? In my first GSSF match I won a Glock 17, a two year membership extension and an extra blue label coupon. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:10:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you win a gun? In my first GSSF match I won a Glock 17, a two year membership extension and an extra blue label coupon.
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:12:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because the gun you’re shooting can be completely legal in one area and deemed a “race gun” somewhere else. That’s why there are objective rules: So you can look at the rules and determine if your equipment is legal or not. Period, that’s it. You don’t need some dude with a BMI of 34 just making the determination based upon, “That there looks like one of them race guns!” Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OK, I'll bite. If it ain't the fucking gun, belt or mag pouches - then why are we here arguing about subjectivity in rules for purpose built guns, belts, and mag pouches? If you don't need your seal club - don't bring it. Just come win with a gun from the store and the mag pouches that came with it. Because the gun you’re shooting can be completely legal in one area and deemed a “race gun” somewhere else. That’s why there are objective rules: So you can look at the rules and determine if your equipment is legal or not. Period, that’s it. You don’t need some dude with a BMI of 34 just making the determination based upon, “That there looks like one of them race guns!” I don't understand why you want to be a part of something you loath to the point of repeatedly belittling. If the rules are stupid and the people are all fat hillbilly boomers; to the point that you "love making fun of IDPA" why would you ever go back? |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:13:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please quote the person who claimed there's an open division in IDPA.  Attached Filearound here “race gun” typically means open division gun  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:15:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, I'll bite. If it ain't the fucking gun, belt or mag pouches - then why are we here arguing about subjectivity in rules for purpose built guns, belts, and mag pouches? If you don't need your seal club - don't bring it. Just come win with a gun from the store and the mag pouches that came with it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone bitching in here is probably just slow as fuck. It ain't the fucking gun, belt or mag pouches that make a good shooter. https://c.tenor.com/1owE2HYmzUQAAAAd/tenor.gif OK, I'll bite. If it ain't the fucking gun, belt or mag pouches - then why are we here arguing about subjectivity in rules for purpose built guns, belts, and mag pouches? If you don't need your seal club - don't bring it. Just come win with a gun from the store and the mag pouches that came with it. Because subjectivity is antithetical to consistency, either have strict rules or don't. Worrying about what side of the bed the Match Director got up on that morning to determine what gear/gun you can use is absurd. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:16:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Please quote the person who claimed there's an open division in IDPA. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2275/6A44F154-EEC5-4D53-8AB5-7337FBE3DA1F_jpe-2675422.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2275/790E378F-0B01-461C-B5D3-13CE5A7DC586_jpe-2675427.JPG That's entirely subjective to your personal opinion of what a race gun is. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:18:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's entirely subjective to your personal opinion of what a race gun is. thank you for sharing have a nice day   Attached File |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:20:31 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: thank you for sharing have a nice day Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's entirely subjective to your personal opinion of what a race gun is. thank you for sharing have a nice day Thank you for not being able to back up your statement, Have a nice day. BTW, I happen to agree with what you think of as a race gun but I know for a fact many average IDPA shooters don't share our opinion on the matter. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:21:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because subjectivity is antithetical to consistency, either have strict rules or don't. Worrying about what side of the bed the Match Director got up on that morning to determine what gear/gun you can use is absurd. So put your seal club back in the truck, kick everyone's ass with a standard gun bundle anyone could go get, and teach that stupid fucking fastass Match Director a lesson. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:22:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Is it just me or does anyone not GAF about what other guys shoot vs how they perform?
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:23:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't understand why you want to be a part of something you loath to the point of repeatedly belittling. If the rules are stupid and the people are all fat hillbilly boomers; to the point that you "love making fun of IDPA" why would you ever go back? Because I’d really love to see all of the shooting sports thrive. I see the value in a healthy and flourishing IDPA. But this isn’t the way to do it. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:23:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you for not being able to back up your statement, Have a nice day. BTW, I happen to agree with what you think of as a race gun but I know for a fact many average IDPA shooters don't share our opinion on the matter. guess which days i give a fuck what an “average IDPA shooters” opinion is
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:24:56 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So put your seal club back in the truck, kick everyone's ass with a standard gun bundle anyone could go get, and teach that stupid fucking fastass Match Director a lesson. What is a “seal club”? A CZ Shadow? A G34? A 1911 with a cone type barrel? Any 2011? A aluminum framed M&P? |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:26:21 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So put your seal club back in the truck, kick everyone's ass with a standard gun bundle anyone could go get, and teach that stupid fucking fastass Match Director a lesson. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Because subjectivity is antithetical to consistency, either have strict rules or don't. Worrying about what side of the bed the Match Director got up on that morning to determine what gear/gun you can use is absurd. So put your seal club back in the truck, kick everyone's ass with a standard gun bundle anyone could go get, and teach that stupid fucking fastass Match Director a lesson. The funny thing is for years I was the one with the basic gun and never gave a shit what "seal club" other shooters were using, now I just use a mid level gun by 3GN/2GN standards and would never think to bitch about someone outspending me. It sounds like you have some personal investment in this, and it makes you angry better shooters want to use better gear. If that's what you want subjective rules aren't the answer. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:27:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have to admit I hate how every genre of competitive practical shooting starts out "honest" with folks shooting what they would actually use for you know "practical shooting", but then it always devolves into gamer bullshit. This. Despite the apparent ambiguity in those rules, I applaud IDPA for at least making the effort for people to use equipment that normal people WOULD actually carry on a regular basis. If you want full-on wacky "race" gear, there are other organizations who will play your game. I like the idea that different orgs have different focus -- no need for every org to be the same. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:27:11 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: guess which days i give a fuck what an “average IDPA shooters” opinion is Well, that is the context of the thread you waded into. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:30:26 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Despite the apparent ambiguity in those rules, I applaud IDPA for at least making the effort for people to use equipment that normal people WOULD actually carry on a regular basis. If you want full-on wacky "race" gear, there are other organizations who will play your game. I like the idea that different orgs have different focus -- no need for every org to be the same. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have to admit I hate how every genre of competitive practical shooting starts out "honest" with folks shooting what they would actually use for you know "practical shooting", but then it always devolves into gamer bullshit. This. Despite the apparent ambiguity in those rules, I applaud IDPA for at least making the effort for people to use equipment that normal people WOULD actually carry on a regular basis. If you want full-on wacky "race" gear, there are other organizations who will play your game. I like the idea that different orgs have different focus -- no need for every org to be the same. I don't disagree with the sentiment, the problem is there's a right way to do it and then there's this. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:43:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The simple solution is to take a picture of yourself at the mall wearing the same gun and gear. Hell I ran into a guy who works at my favorite Gyro place rucking in the grocery store. Full size ruck and carrying an HK USP. ETA: The pistol was in an Uncle Mike's soft IWB tucked in his front right pocket. Obviously he did not consider what other people might think when he left the house. Lol, I worked 10 years plus next to Ft. Drum. It was not surprising when I would come across a rucker with his own AR on the county roads doing his own personal workout. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:45:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't disagree with the sentiment, the problem is there's a right way to do it and then there's this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have to admit I hate how every genre of competitive practical shooting starts out "honest" with folks shooting what they would actually use for you know "practical shooting", but then it always devolves into gamer bullshit. This. Despite the apparent ambiguity in those rules, I applaud IDPA for at least making the effort for people to use equipment that normal people WOULD actually carry on a regular basis. If you want full-on wacky "race" gear, there are other organizations who will play your game. I like the idea that different orgs have different focus -- no need for every org to be the same. I don't disagree with the sentiment, the problem is there's a right way to do it and then there's this. I agree it is a bit vague, but, given the unbelievable variety of pistols and gear available (even guns and gear that are considered 'normal' CCW), how do you codify the intent of the rules without making the rulebook 1,000 pages and something that needs to be updated every 60 days due to new guns/equipment hitting the market? Honest question: How would you make explicit rules as to what constitutes "real world" everyday carry configurations, while still including the wide range of "normal" guns and equipment? Can't just be "factory" guns because some small company will absolutely jump in and produce a run of 100 guns (or whatever the minimum is) to meet "production" quotas, but are specifically designed to be race guns, and not carry guns. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:53:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't disagree with the sentiment, the problem is there's a right way to do it and then there's this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have to admit I hate how every genre of competitive practical shooting starts out "honest" with folks shooting what they would actually use for you know "practical shooting", but then it always devolves into gamer bullshit. This. Despite the apparent ambiguity in those rules, I applaud IDPA for at least making the effort for people to use equipment that normal people WOULD actually carry on a regular basis. If you want full-on wacky "race" gear, there are other organizations who will play your game. I like the idea that different orgs have different focus -- no need for every org to be the same. I don't disagree with the sentiment, the problem is there's a right way to do it and then there's this. Send them a letter on how to fix it. My, and apparently others, experience is that inevitably once the purpose built gear arrives, the shooting groups get smaller and smaller. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 12:56:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree it is a bit vague, but, given the unbelievable variety of pistols and gear available (even guns and gear that are considered 'normal' CCW), how do you codify the intent of the rules without making the rulebook 1,000 pages and something that needs to be updated every 60 days due to new guns/equipment hitting the market? Honest question: How would you make explicit rules as to what constitutes "real world" everyday carry configurations, while still including the wide range of "normal" guns and equipment? Can't just be "factory" guns because some small company will absolutely jump in and produce a run of 100 guns (or whatever the minimum is) to meet "production" quotas, but are specifically designed to be race guns, and not carry guns. It has to be based upon things like weight and size. The problem is (and we’ve already seen it in this thread) is if you have a specific weight limit and someone has a gun that squeaks in right under that people will be squirting tears about “cheating”. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:11:14 PM EDT
[#32]
It appears to be in the right spirit.
As to it being a competition, this is why scores should only be kept for helping people improve. No prizes, awards, or similar should be given out on score. People should be there shooting to get better, not to win a competition. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:13:43 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It appears to be in the right spirit. As to it being a competition, this is why scores should only be kept for helping people improve. No prizes, awards, or similar should be given out on score. People should be there shooting to get better, not to win a competition. I think you’ve perhaps missed the entire point of a competitive venue. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:29:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has to be based upon things like weight and size. The problem is (and we’ve already seen it in this thread) is if you have a specific weight limit and someone has a gun that squeaks in right under that people will be squirting tears about “cheating”. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I agree it is a bit vague, but, given the unbelievable variety of pistols and gear available (even guns and gear that are considered 'normal' CCW), how do you codify the intent of the rules without making the rulebook 1,000 pages and something that needs to be updated every 60 days due to new guns/equipment hitting the market? Honest question: How would you make explicit rules as to what constitutes "real world" everyday carry configurations, while still including the wide range of "normal" guns and equipment? Can't just be "factory" guns because some small company will absolutely jump in and produce a run of 100 guns (or whatever the minimum is) to meet "production" quotas, but are specifically designed to be race guns, and not carry guns. It has to be based upon things like weight and size. The problem is (and we’ve already seen it in this thread) is if you have a specific weight limit and someone has a gun that squeaks in right under that people will be squirting tears about “cheating”. Geeze, I need to go see if my EDC makes the weight limit. Whew, is the weight limit for unloaded? This is loaded  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:34:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The funny thing is that you're going to have 87 different opinions on what a race holster is. What's a competition oriented magazine carrier? Tilted back? OWB? What about belts? Because those are arguments which are going to happen starting this Friday. Is a Safariland level 3 duty holster for competition? They're intended for every day carry - for law enforcement and military..,, |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:36:54 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Last time I shot IDPA, they still had 10rd rules. It's a concealed carry match NooooOoOoOoo! You can't shoot your double stack pistol loaded to capacity!! That's Cheating! What about my 1911!!!! |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:38:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a concealed carry match NooooOoOoOoo! You can't shoot your double stack pistol loaded to capacity!! That's Cheating! What about my 1911!!!! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Last time I shot IDPA, they still had 10rd rules. It's a concealed carry match NooooOoOoOoo! You can't shoot your double stack pistol loaded to capacity!! That's Cheating! What about my 1911!!!! My pocket gun carries more than 10 rounds lol. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:40:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It appears to be in the right spirit. As to it being a competition, this is why scores should only be kept for helping people improve. No prizes, awards, or similar should be given out on score. People should be there shooting to get better, not to win a competition. Yeah, no. As a personal mantra that's fine, as group that would be a perfect way to kill any sport. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:46:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My pocket gun carries more than 10 rounds lol. it's why I think IDPA is becoming dumber and dumber as the years roll on. The ideal concealed carry gun isn't a 1911 anymore, because the AWB is dead. Even a stock Glock 19 with the shit that comes in the box isn't legal if you load it to capacity - and we have guns like the Sig Macro, Hellcat Pro, etc - all smaller and lighter in the same caliber, and designed from the ground up to be concealed carry guns. If you load them to capacity - you can't shoot half the divisions. Never mind that The last time I looked, a production done can hold 15 rounds, but a carry optics gun was limited to 10. IDPA needs to realize people are carrying "gamer guns" and get with the times - a slide mounted reciprocating optic that comes mounted on the gun from the factory is an indicator they're intended for "concealed carry" use. There's a big difference from an open faced race holster and a 2011 using 150mm mags; and the RDO Equipped Sig 365XL Joe bought at Sportsmans Warehouse two weeks before the shoot. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:46:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My pocket gun carries more than 10 rounds lol. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Last time I shot IDPA, they still had 10rd rules. It's a concealed carry match NooooOoOoOoo! You can't shoot your double stack pistol loaded to capacity!! That's Cheating! What about my 1911!!!! My pocket gun carries more than 10 rounds lol. I agree that the 10 round limit is not realistic. Part of CCW is knowing the local laws for where you are carrying, so adjusting your equipment to be in compliance is a totally realistic scenario. If you are shooting a match in a location where >10 is allowed, load up and go for it. If you are shooting a match in a location where >10 is NOT allowed, you have to adjust your equipment, just like in real life. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:48:08 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It appears to be in the right spirit. As to it being a competition, this is why scores should only be kept for helping people improve. No prizes, awards, or similar should be given out on score. People should be there shooting to get better, not to win a competition. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:54:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree that the 10 round limit is not realistic. Part of CCW is knowing the local laws for where you are carrying, so adjusting your equipment to be in compliance is a totally realistic scenario. If you are shooting a match in a location where >10 is allowed, load up and go for it. If you are shooting a match in a location where >10 is NOT allowed, you have to adjust your equipment, just like in real life. The excuse I hear is "well, how do ban states compete with non-ban states" |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:55:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree it is a bit vague, but, given the unbelievable variety of pistols and gear available (even guns and gear that are considered 'normal' CCW), how do you codify the intent of the rules without making the rulebook 1,000 pages and something that needs to be updated every 60 days due to new guns/equipment hitting the market? Honest question: How would you make explicit rules as to what constitutes "real world" everyday carry configurations, while still including the wide range of "normal" guns and equipment? Can't just be "factory" guns because some small company will absolutely jump in and produce a run of 100 guns (or whatever the minimum is) to meet "production" quotas, but are specifically designed to be race guns, and not carry guns. If you really want there to be practical limits have a size/weight limit and an MSRP under $1k and you'll eliminate most of those issues. Of course that would make the 1911 lovers bleed out of every orifice lol. ETA: And limit mods only to triggers. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 1:58:49 PM EDT
[#44]
Whatever you find 'hilarious in the extreme' I guess.
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Posted: 1/17/2023 2:04:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The excuse I hear is "well, how do ban states compete with non-ban states" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I agree that the 10 round limit is not realistic. Part of CCW is knowing the local laws for where you are carrying, so adjusting your equipment to be in compliance is a totally realistic scenario. If you are shooting a match in a location where >10 is allowed, load up and go for it. If you are shooting a match in a location where >10 is NOT allowed, you have to adjust your equipment, just like in real life. The excuse I hear is "well, how do ban states compete with non-ban states" Indeed, it is 'not fair' to those in ban states. However, it is also 'not fair' to kneecap those in free states to practice ONLY as if they are in a ban state, because that is NOT how they will carry on the street -- which is the ENTIRE point of IDPA. So it's 'not fair' either way, but the "use local limits" rule is more in keeping with the primary purpose of the IDPA org. Perhaps if they want to change to primarily a pure sport race gun series, then I can see the 'equal' round limits, because then you've de-prioritized the "realistic" aspect in favor of the 'fair gaming' aspect. Wish there was a way to make things 100% fair for everyone in the entire nation in every aspect of the CCW activity, regardless of local laws, but that clearly is not the world we live in. The hard cold reality is that people who live in ban states ARE at a disadvantage on the street vs. those in non-ban states when it comes to choices of capacity. The obvious solution is to have TWO overarching divisions -- ban and non-ban. But even THAT has issues, as some people live in areas where it is likely they will compete in both. There is no 100% fair solution. Do you err on the side of gaming or realism? |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 2:30:54 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Despite the apparent ambiguity in those rules, I applaud IDPA for at least making the effort for people to use equipment that normal people WOULD actually carry on a regular basis. If you want full-on wacky "race" gear, there are other organizations who will play your game. I like the idea that different orgs have different focus -- no need for every org to be the same. Is something like a S&W Model 3566PC a race gun by today's metrics?  The Model 3566, a double-stack, single action pistols tuned for high-level USPSA competition. It was a pistol that was going to dominate the new Limited division, with the capacity of a standard 9x19mm handgun but enough power to qualify for Major. And then in February 1995, the USPSA Board revised their rules to require a minimum bullet diameter of .40 inch for any Major caliber. Was S&W unfairly screwed by USPSA? Or was S&W trying to exploit a rule loophole contrary to the spirit of the game? Either way, the victim was the .356 TSW cartridge, which had a lot of potential but was basically dead on arrival because of the USPSA rule change. The gun shipped with a 9mm barrel too and by today's metrics, it is just a run if the mill 9mm SAO. But back then, it was a race gun. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 2:32:07 PM EDT
[#47]
I thought the funniest part of the rule book text in the OP was the specific reference to an "automobile with bucket seats"
How many automobiles come with bench seats now... it's 2023, not 1963 
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Posted: 1/17/2023 2:33:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Miami
we can always count on you to be stuck in the 1990’s 
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Posted: 1/17/2023 2:33:56 PM EDT
[#49]
If you show up at a match-any match- for the first time and expect to be competitive then you simply aren't aware of the ferocious level of skill that even B class shooters have nowadays.
The simple fact is most people could use a 30 shot comped and optically sighted .22LR(scored Major) against production shooters using a stock Glock 26 and finish dead last. But it's kinda like Fight Club: "The first time you're cookie dough, a month later you're carved out of wood" Whether or not that reflects the prowess needed in a gunfight at 5 yards against a retarded fentanyl junkie isn't the issue. USPSA/IPSC/IDPA are all maximum performance shooting competitions, not replications of a particular type of gunfight. The various attributes a gun can have that have proven to be competitive advantages in 32 round Comstocked field courses-capacity, optics, comps, weight, ultra light triggers, reload speed, low recoil- dictate a different gun than one intended to be carried concealed all day, day after day, and used against an armed robber at 5 yards. But custom gun racing has led us to bolt together Roland Special analogues that are nearly pocket sized, and the blistering competition has completely upended notions about what skill levels a handgun can be shot at. |
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Posted: 1/17/2023 2:37:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Send them a letter on how to fix it. My, and apparently others, experience is that inevitably once the purpose built gear arrives, the shooting groups get smaller and smaller. Agreed. You lose the mass appeal once the gaming gets out of hand. Next comes divisions based on scores, then sandbagging, lack of personnel, merging of divisions, then circling the drain. Far from the first sport to have it happen in. |
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