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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:27:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ask a guy who has never received CAS anything you want to know about CAS. Any virgins want to give some pointers on sex while we are at it? Now it's a real thread. 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:33:40 PM EDT
[#2]
If the AF gave 10% of the fuck about mission accomplishment as they do service equities, there'd be no complaints from stupid little infantryman like me. Sylvan: Your wrong. At least about the stupid little infantryman part of it. People like you are the "Key" in all of this high tech mumbo jumbo of death we have let ourselves get into. Oh, I am not against it, by in large I approve of the latest and greatest technology has to offer. The reason your wrong is you are on the receiving end, you are the one in the ditch, you are on the ground with the enemy, closing the distance, taking the fight to them. Technology may have got you there, but the rest is ALWAYS up to you, the infantryman or the "boots". For that role, you and the rest of the "Boots" of any branch have my unqualified support and thanks. -Taft (USAF 1976-1981) |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:44:43 PM EDT
[#3]
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you're a sorta sailor, inertia mean anything to you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Agreed. Casey wanted no fixed wing in the Army. So the guy who got relieved in Iraq is the one choosing the strategic direction of the army. Gone for more than 3 years now. Time, tide, and formation wait for no man. you're a sorta sailor, inertia mean anything to you? Question is, does inertia mean anything to you? If there isn't Army inertia for change after 13 years of allegedly poor USAF support during our country's longest continuous conflict, when would there ever be inertia towards change? Iraq is done (for the US) and Afghanistan is winding down. The number of soldiers with combat experience receiving that allegedly poor support is decreasing and the creep towards service status quo ante bellum will become near irresistible. That's the inertia I understand. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:44:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:47:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS. They don't want it. The USMC is going to blow half their budget on the F-35B for the next two decades. ETA: “There’s no alternative for the United States Marine Corps to the F-35B” - CMC Gen. James Amos |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:48:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS.  If anyone is more in the tank for F-35 than the USAF it's the USMC.
If anything, the Corps should deed its Harriers to the Army when F-35B hits FOC. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:51:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If anyone is more in the tank for F-35 than the USAF it's the USMC.If anything, the Corps should deed its Harriers to the Army when F-35B hits FOC. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS. If anyone is more in the tank for F-35 than the USAF it's the USMC.If anything, the Corps should deed its Harriers to the Army when F-35B hits FOC.  |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:52:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol When some people talk about how some Air Force officers are arrogant and condescending, I didn't really understand what they meant. Until now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: .... And while the loss of any life is tragic, and mission success is never guaranteed, you have to make tough decisions and do the best with what you can. ... Air Support Request for overwatch turned down on your convoy? That sucks, but your convoy didn't rate in the CFC's priorities. Take it up with Fires. ... If people like ARFCOM's little darling Sylvan ... ... It's a very naive and selfish way of looking at it. ... You don't understand. ... I've actually sat in the chair and had to make the call that, nope... sorry army unit... you don't get CAS for your convoy, even when I've had a bad feeling about it for whatever reason. But you have to keep your priorities in line with strategy. ... Sometimes those decisions have cost lives, and that sucks, but in the end, it's not about the troops, ti's about mission accomplishment. ... So you and folks like you can whine about the magic that is air power not fulfilling your desires without ever understanding the gigantic octopus of factors that make it happen. That's ok . lol When some people talk about how some Air Force officers are arrogant and condescending, I didn't really understand what they meant. Until now. Thank you, sir. I was thinking this, but didn't want to say it.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:53:03 PM EDT
[#9]
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Beat consonantly getting rolled over and fucked willingly by big blue.
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Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS. If anyone is more in the tank for F-35 than the USAF it's the USMC.
If anything, the Corps should deed its Harriers to the Army when F-35B hits FOC.
If the boning they get from big blue was so bad, you'd think that at least one single senior Army officer would bring it up on Capitol hill... |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:59:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the boning they get from big blue was so bad, you'd think that at least one single senior Army officer would bring it up on Capitol hill... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS. If anyone is more in the tank for F-35 than the USAF it's the USMC.If anything, the Corps should deed its Harriers to the Army when F-35B hits FOC. If the boning they get from big blue was so bad, you'd think that at least one single senior Army officer would bring it up on Capitol hill... Honestly though, looking through the historical agreements between the Army, Airforce, and Administration, it seems like the Army likes to give up assets to the AF like a slut on prom night. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:00:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Loved reading through this thread. Thanks for the educated back and forth on this topic.
Help a civilian out though: is Sylvan's basic argument similar to the Sherman in WW2? Smaller, lighter, and cheaper, so we could build more and support more infantry than the Germans could? If so, sounds reasonable to me. But I'm not military. You go ahead and duke it out, and I'll learn stuff 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:01:38 PM EDT
[#12]
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If the boning they get from big blue was so bad, you'd think that at least one single senior Army officer would bring it up on Capitol hill... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS. If anyone is more in the tank for F-35 than the USAF it's the USMC.
If anything, the Corps should deed its Harriers to the Army when F-35B hits FOC.
If the boning they get from big blue was so bad, you'd think that at least one single senior Army officer would bring it up on Capitol hill... Senior Army officers are notoriously lacking in intestinal fortitude and the ability or willingness to call a spade a spade. The few that are get canned or railroaded by some hackjob. One exception to that was General Vines. It is true that I haven't heard a lot of them complaining about this CAS abortion, although I'm sure someone has to have addressed it before. At the end of the day, a lot of guys settle for... "It wasn't purdy, but we got 'er done." Take the medals and retirement, and give a crap after that, other than the particular company they go to work for and their billion dollar whiz bang, which never is CAS-related because there isn't a ton of money in the CAS mission in the grand perspective of things, even though there really is when you look at the assets allocated to cover down on it. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:02:05 PM EDT
[#13]
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I bet it's Stockholm syndrome... Honestly though, looking through the historical agreements between the Army, Airforce, and Administration, it seems like the Army likes to give up assets to the AF like a slut on prom night. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS. If anyone is more in the tank for F-35 than the USAF it's the USMC.
If anything, the Corps should deed its Harriers to the Army when F-35B hits FOC.
If the boning they get from big blue was so bad, you'd think that at least one single senior Army officer would bring it up on Capitol hill... Honestly though, looking through the historical agreements between the Army, Airforce, and Administration, it seems like the Army likes to give up assets to the AF like a slut on prom night. Sounds to me like the Army can't even count on their own air assets. Maybe they should start there before solving everyone else's problems for them. I know in an infantryman's perfect world every company commander would have a squadron of super tucos, a squadron of apaches, and a squadron of AC-130s at their 24/7 beck and call. Spring another few trillion from the treasury and we can make the dream a reality. 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:02:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I bet it's Stockholm syndrome... Honestly though, looking through the historical agreements between the Army, Airforce, and Administration, it seems like the Army likes to give up assets to the AF like a slut on prom night. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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Clearly the answer is for the AF to give the Marines the A-10 (Or for them to steal it) and then for the Army to hire out Marine CAS. If anyone is more in the tank for F-35 than the USAF it's the USMC.
If anything, the Corps should deed its Harriers to the Army when F-35B hits FOC.
If the boning they get from big blue was so bad, you'd think that at least one single senior Army officer would bring it up on Capitol hill... Honestly though, looking through the historical agreements between the Army, Airforce, and Administration, it seems like the Army likes to give up assets to the AF like a slut on prom night. 'Cause real soldiers don't fly airplanes.. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:04:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Lol! Just wow.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:16:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds to me like the Army can't even count on their own air assets. Maybe they should start there before solving everyone else's problems for them. I know in an infantryman's perfect world every company Bn commander would have a squadron of super tucos Harriers, a squadron of apaches Cobras, and a squadron of AC-130 s Harvest Hawk at their 24/7 beck and call. Spring another few trillion billion from the treasury and we can make the dream a reality. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:snip Sounds to me like the Army can't even count on their own air assets. Maybe they should start there before solving everyone else's problems for them. I know in an infantryman's perfect world every company Bn commander would have a squadron of super tucos Harriers, a squadron of apaches Cobras, and a squadron of AC-130 s Harvest Hawk at their 24/7 beck and call. Spring another few trillion billion from the treasury and we can make the dream a reality. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:20:52 PM EDT
[#17]
 Sylvans wet dream on wheels. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:24:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:snip
Sounds to me like the Army can't even count on their own air assets. Maybe they should start there before solving everyone else's problems for them. I know in an infantryman's perfect world every company Bn commander would have a squadron of super tucos Harriers, a squadron of apaches Cobras, and a squadron of AC-130 s Harvest Hawk at their 24/7 beck and call. Spring another few trillion billion from the treasury and we can make the dream a reality. We're talking about supporting an Army occupying an entire nation, not some little task force that gets to go home after kicking in a few doors. 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:24:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote Historydude, I can see the pixels |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:26:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Wanted to check in- change of plans- headed to bed but will revisit tomorrow after work.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:29:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistorySometimes I get the impression that he doesn't give two shits about what the a/c is so long as it's not flown by AF. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:40:18 PM EDT
[#22]
If air power is subject to the will of the CFC, why is the CA so low? Why does the AF have final say on air clearance even after they have admitted there is no asset close enough to action a TIC? In a COIN fight where troops are within range of GMLRs throughout an operation why can't the Army own the airspace after those troops are denied support in the ATO?
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:44:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Time and again I see people post opinions and speculations about the use of Air Power in support of ground operations that suggests to me that there is a widespread misunderstanding of how the apparatus works. In particular, (referencing the current frat thread) notions of the role & application of CAS, how decisions are made, and what is and is not appropriate as a CAS asset. I will NOT discuss any particular missions/operations, nor will I disclose any capabilities or TTPs that are not common knowledge. When in doubt, I will err on the side of OPSEC. I just want to give the uninitiated the opportunity to learn more about Close Air Support planning, execution, and command & control. (DISCLAIMER: I'm pretty much going to just ignore Sylvan, should he chime in, as he has demonstrated a recalcitrant prejudice towards USAF CAS and refusal to look at the bigger picture. So, no offense, Sylvan, but if you'd like to discuss CAS with me, we'll do it in a private forum.) Ask away... I am not reading 6 pages but I do have a specific question: Were you ever asked to sign a "non-disclosure agreement," of any sort? |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:46:30 PM EDT
[#24]
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Those airplanes you'd like every ground unit to have? Yeah... they don't exist. Neither does the gas to keep them all aloft. Same goes for the maintainers who make them go vrrroooom! Not enough of those guys. Tankers to bring in the gas? They're preciously rare as well. Airfields? Nope... not enough of them... and they've got a nasty habit of taking a lot of time and resources to build if they don't happen to be conveniently located where you want them. Bombs? Expensive, have to be transported from point A to point B... something something fuses and oh yeah... limited resource as well. Air power is HDLD- High Demand, Low Density. It has to be rationed out... . Pretty much everything you are saying here boils down to money. I wonder how we could do CAS cheaper so we could get more of it? |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:48:51 PM EDT
[#25]
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Pretty much everything you are saying here boils down to money. I wonder how we could do CAS cheaper so we could get more of it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Those airplanes you'd like every ground unit to have? Yeah... they don't exist. Neither does the gas to keep them all aloft. Same goes for the maintainers who make them go vrrroooom! Not enough of those guys. Tankers to bring in the gas? They're preciously rare as well. Airfields? Nope... not enough of them... and they've got a nasty habit of taking a lot of time and resources to build if they don't happen to be conveniently located where you want them. Bombs? Expensive, have to be transported from point A to point B... something something fuses and oh yeah... limited resource as well. Air power is HDLD- High Demand, Low Density. It has to be rationed out... . Pretty much everything you are saying here boils down to money. I wonder how we could do CAS cheaper so we could get more of it? Artillery. Edit: Drones plus artillery. It is the equivalent of/analogue to hot air balloons and artillery 150 years ago. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:49:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Don't worry Air Force, we'll get it done either way.
The best support I have ever had from USAF was from AFSOC, whether it was PAVE HAWKS or MH-53J PAVE LOW. Our TAC-P's were good dudes committed to the effort. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 5:59:28 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty much everything you are saying here boils down to money. I wonder how we could do CAS cheaper so we could get more of it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Those airplanes you'd like every ground unit to have? Yeah... they don't exist. Neither does the gas to keep them all aloft. Same goes for the maintainers who make them go vrrroooom! Not enough of those guys. Tankers to bring in the gas? They're preciously rare as well. Airfields? Nope... not enough of them... and they've got a nasty habit of taking a lot of time and resources to build if they don't happen to be conveniently located where you want them. Bombs? Expensive, have to be transported from point A to point B... something something fuses and oh yeah... limited resource as well. Air power is HDLD- High Demand, Low Density. It has to be rationed out... . Pretty much everything you are saying here boils down to money. I wonder how we could do CAS cheaper so we could get more of it? Which is why the Army killed the Kiowa to buy AH-64Es - Apaches are cheaper. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 6:15:52 PM EDT
[#28]
USMC 7565/7502 here.
I spoke to an Air Force recruiter who asked me if I was the special kind of person who was awesome enough to be single most important thing ever imagined- an Air Force pilot. Every move every other person in the AF made was specifically designed to support me- was I ready to be such a person. Then a Marine recruiter asked me if I was special enough to be a Marine and be willing to live the rest of my life (with College Degrees, shiny gold wings and rank devices, and Air Medals with numerals I didn't really deserve) supporting some 19 year-old kid with a rifle and a radio, four days of dirt in his ears, and an attitude that would peel paint off a wall. Air Force officers think they are very special. When I am fortunate enough to be airborne at a moment when a FAC/JTAC needs a problem solved, I will gladly do whatever it takes to solve it. I will lob PGMs, drive right in with rockets and guns, low pass, land get out and paint your fence, whatever. The mil branches are very different. I think the USMC does CAS correctly. We look at it as a service. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 6:22:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
USMC 7565/7502 here. I spoke to an Air Force recruiter who asked me if I was the special kind of person who was awesome enough to be single most important thing ever imagined- an Air Force pilot. Every move every other person in the AF made was specifically designed to support me- was I ready to be such a person. Then a Marine recruiter asked me if I was special enough to be a Marine and be willing to live the rest of my life (with College Degrees, shiny gold wings and rank devices, and Air Medals with numerals I didn't really deserve) supporting some 19 year-old kid with a rifle and a radio, four days of dirt in his ears, and an attitude that would peel paint off a wall. Air Force officers think they are very special. When I am fortunate enough to be airborne at a moment when a FAC/JTAC needs a problem solved, I will gladly do whatever it takes to solve it. I will lob PGMs, drive right in with rockets and guns, low pass, land get out and paint your fence, whatever. The mil branches are very different. I think the USMC does CAS correctly. We look at it as a service. I never had any Marine support, but thank you. Seriously. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 6:31:43 PM EDT
[#30]
Here's my experience with CAS in Iraq: The aviation BN CO stopped by my Company orderly room to talk to all the team and squad leaders and let us know what he could and couldn't do for us. He showed us some videos, answered all our questions, and told us they were there for us, and they looked forward to supporting us any way they could. The Air Force sent an E4 to tell us we needed a brigade commander to submit a request, 4 days in advance, with a detailed target package.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 6:32:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
USMC 7565/7502 here. I spoke to an Air Force recruiter who asked me if I was the special kind of person who was awesome enough to be single most important thing ever imagined- an Air Force pilot. Every move every other person in the AF made was specifically designed to support me- was I ready to be such a person. Then a Marine recruiter asked me if I was special enough to be a Marine and be willing to live the rest of my life (with College Degrees, shiny gold wings and rank devices, and Air Medals with numerals I didn't really deserve) supporting some 19 year-old kid with a rifle and a radio, four days of dirt in his ears, and an attitude that would peel paint off a wall. Air Force officers think they are very special. When I am fortunate enough to be airborne at a moment when a FAC/JTAC needs a problem solved, I will gladly do whatever it takes to solve it. I will lob PGMs, drive right in with rockets and guns, low pass, land get out and paint your fence, whatever. The mil branches are very different. I think the USMC does CAS correctly. We look at it as a service. As the 19 year old kid on the ground with a rifle, thank you. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 6:35:39 PM EDT
[#32]
And yet another tag for an interesting (and informative!) thread.
I'll be if we put a bunch of you guys at a lodge with a couple pallets of beer and carte blanche to re-write policy, we'd have some very interesting approaches to solving some problems!
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Posted: 6/10/2014 6:48:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And yet another tag for an interesting (and informative!) thread. I'll be if we put a bunch of you guys at a lodge with a couple pallets of beer and carte blanche to re-write policy, we'd have some very interesting approaches to solving some problems! You better throw some rulers in there too. Preferably with the centimeters side relabeled as inches. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:23:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And yet another tag for an interesting (and informative!) thread. I'll be if we put a bunch of you guys at a lodge with a couple pallets of beer and carte blanche to re-write policy, we'd have some very interesting approaches to solving some problems! Or a keg of Jack Daniels. Too bad some of them don't drink. 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:46:46 PM EDT
[#35]
I always thought the AF was all about air superiority and bombing and ICBMs and shit like that, and that they were doing CAS pretty much just to give them something to do since they ran out of major targets. I mean, this is ONE war, one TYPE of war...who's to say what the next war will bring? I mean, if we start throwing every pilot in an A-10 and getting them all trained up for CAS, isn't the Army going to be really pissed when Crimea blows up, shit starts going down, MiGs blow the fucking A-10s out of the air and now it's the Russians who are bitching about shitty CAS from their pilots?
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:51:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always thought the AF was all about air superiority and bombing and ICBMs and shit like that, and that they were doing CAS pretty much just to give them something to do since they ran out of major targets. I mean, this is ONE war, one TYPE of war...who's to say what the next war will bring? I mean, if we start throwing every pilot in an A-10 and getting them all trained up for CAS, isn't the Army going to be really pissed when Crimea blows up, shit starts going down, MiGs blow the fucking A-10s out of the air and now it's the Russians who are bitching about shitty CAS from their pilots? This goes back to the fundamentals. We have food and resources, they don't. Anyone fighting us would lose, if we still have the will to fight. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:11:29 PM EDT
[#37]
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In order to meet the CFC's strategy, vision, and intent, you cannot have air power fiefdoms. Sounds like that is EXACTLY what is needed. The local commander should have an air component directly tasked to him in order to complete the ground objective. It should start with multiple CALFX at the workup stage. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:34:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We're talking about supporting an Army occupying an entire nation, not some little task force that gets to go home after kicking in a few doors. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:snip Sounds to me like the Army can't even count on their own air assets. Maybe they should start there before solving everyone else's problems for them. I know in an infantryman's perfect world every company Bn commander would have a squadron of super tucos Harriers, a squadron of apaches Cobras, and a squadron of AC-130 s Harvest Hawk at their 24/7 beck and call. Spring another few trillion billion from the treasury and we can make the dream a reality. We're talking about supporting an Army occupying an entire nation, not some little task force that gets to go home after kicking in a few doors. What are the normal deployment lengths between the services? I would assume the longer the lenght, the more skin people have in the game vs shorter deployments where people are in and out quick and don't have to put as much long term effort in. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:37:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or a keg of Jack Daniels. Too bad some of them don't drink. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And yet another tag for an interesting (and informative!) thread. I'll be if we put a bunch of you guys at a lodge with a couple pallets of beer and carte blanche to re-write policy, we'd have some very interesting approaches to solving some problems! Or a keg of Jack Daniels. Too bad some of them don't drink. Secret commies, every one of them. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:42:44 PM EDT
[#40]
A consultant is a man who knows 100 ways to make love, but doesn't know any women.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:45:06 PM EDT
[#41]
How did access to RPAs affect your employment of both fixed wing CAS (fast movers) and unmanned CAS?
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:02:13 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:07:46 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OV-113 Broncogavin Quote History |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:03:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's my experience with CAS in Iraq: The aviation BN CO stopped by my Company orderly room to talk to all the team and squad leaders and let us know what he could and couldn't do for us. He showed us some videos, answered all our questions, and told us they were there for us, and they looked forward to supporting us any way they could. The Air Force sent an E4 to tell us we needed a brigade commander to submit a request, 4 days in advance, with a detailed target package. You just don't get the construct. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:09:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds to me like the Army can't even count on their own air assets. Maybe they should start there before solving everyone else's problems for them. I know in an infantryman's perfect world every company commander would have a squadron of super tucos, a squadron of apaches, and a squadron of AC-130s at their 24/7 beck and call. Spring another few trillion from the treasury and we can make the dream a reality. CAS and Interdiction are absolutely USAF missions that need to be done. However, the customer doesn't seem to be happy with the service. Again, a 100 a/c LAAR buy with those aircraft operating as an organic element to maneuver BDEs outside the ATO isn't a trillion dollars, or even a billion dollars. However, your hyperbole does represent your last refuge. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:13:07 PM EDT
[#46]
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lol When some people talk about how some Air Force officers are arrogant and condescending, I didn't really understand what they meant. Until now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.... And while the loss of any life is tragic, and mission success is never guaranteed, you have to make tough decisions and do the best with what you can. ... Air Support Request for overwatch turned down on your convoy? That sucks, but your convoy didn't rate in the CFC's priorities. Take it up with Fires. ... If people like ARFCOM's little darling Sylvan ... ... It's a very naive and selfish way of looking at it. ... You don't understand. ... I've actually sat in the chair and had to make the call that, nope... sorry army unit... you don't get CAS for your convoy, even when I've had a bad feeling about it for whatever reason. But you have to keep your priorities in line with strategy. ... Sometimes those decisions have cost lives, and that sucks, but in the end, it's not about the troops, ti's about mission accomplishment. ... So you and folks like you can whine about the magic that is air power not fulfilling your desires without ever understanding the gigantic octopus of factors that make it happen. That's ok . lol When some people talk about how some Air Force officers are arrogant and condescending, I didn't really understand what they meant. Until now. That's a kill. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:17:23 PM EDT
[#47]
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I've heard the frustrations about our inter-theater lift posted by yourself and others that really show a fundamental lack of understanding of the system. I was able to use it to (legally and by the book) move cargo and personnel all over the theater on literally 30 minutes notice, I'm sorry that every logistician can't be bothered to learn how to do the same. So, again, its the customer that sucks. I'm sure that's how FedEx and UPS work. I do know that C-23s were essentially flown into the redline in Iraq, and became the prime lift asset for SOCOM guys despite MC-130s being in theater. Wander around a group of C-23 pilots and count the SOCOM combat patches. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:18:35 PM EDT
[#48]
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Hey, like I said. I respect your opinion. Yes, absolutely, dead soldiers are a problem. I'm just suggesting that your opinion isn't going to change a damn thing. So maybe you shouldn't get so amped up. You're very emotional about something OP didn't create and neither of you can change. Such decisions are made way above your pay grade. Doesn't mean you don't have a right to an opinion but getting so wrapped up in it and pointlessly aiming your ire at OP because his opinion (which is equally inconsequential in the long run) is ultimately futile. Do it all you can... put all your effort into it... then step back and analyze what you've accomplished. And don't worry about the nature of the badge and gun I carry nor the authority I've been granted. Trust me, you wouldn't be impressed. But I refuse to drag my position into this just so you can continue your dick measuring contest. I have more respect for my position than to waste it in that way, as tame as my badge may be. Now put your dick away and chill a little. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I respect your opinion but in the grand scheme of things... whoopty-fuckin-doo. Your opinion doesn't matter more because your life is on the line. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Everybody has a job to do. You do yours, the guy in the chair does his. Nobody's going to do it all and nobody in this thread has the ability to change current policy on CAS. So sitting here bitching at each other over something you really can't do anything about is an exercise in mental masturbation. so dead soldiers aren't a strategic liability? "support" what does that mean, anyway? Having been on the receiving end of Army style support and AF style support, the AF sucks at it. And they do it while costing a fortune. maybe you should GAF as a taxpayer. Gotta ask, what do you do in blue? Hey, like I said. I respect your opinion. Yes, absolutely, dead soldiers are a problem. I'm just suggesting that your opinion isn't going to change a damn thing. So maybe you shouldn't get so amped up. You're very emotional about something OP didn't create and neither of you can change. Such decisions are made way above your pay grade. Doesn't mean you don't have a right to an opinion but getting so wrapped up in it and pointlessly aiming your ire at OP because his opinion (which is equally inconsequential in the long run) is ultimately futile. Do it all you can... put all your effort into it... then step back and analyze what you've accomplished. And don't worry about the nature of the badge and gun I carry nor the authority I've been granted. Trust me, you wouldn't be impressed. But I refuse to drag my position into this just so you can continue your dick measuring contest. I have more respect for my position than to waste it in that way, as tame as my badge may be. Now put your dick away and chill a little. Insult people, and then tell them to chill and feel yourself to be taking the high road. This thread is certainly instructive, and not in the fashion that the OP intended. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:22:43 PM EDT
[#49]
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If the mission is to support the infantry, and the infantry says you aren't doing it, and you don't want to listen to them... then just leave. Don't make them cheat on you with organic assets. Don't make them go to Rusted Ace's Whorehouse (the thought of such a thing existing terrifies me). Just break up so you can both go see other people and be happier for it. But, they can't. The F-35 was sold as a replacement for the A-10, in order to keep the per unit costs of the F-35 program from spiraling out of control. The F-35 program needs every replacement airframe its can scrounge, and the USAF needs the F-35, or its out of the tactical air power business. I do think the USAF has a legitimate worry that if they did fund the LAAR, Congress would circle back and make them buy more as "A-10 replacements" when no one believes that to be true. The LAAR is an OV-10 replacement. The A-10 is involved because the A-10 took over the OV-10 mission set. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:25:55 PM EDT
[#50]
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Or stop buying AH-64E and buy LAAR type aircraft... And procure a C-23 replacement. The reality is that the recent history of the USAF practically guarantees a cock-block, and the intra-service equities of the Army prevent a coherent response. It is undoubtedly true that the Army does bear a significant portion of blame for this. The politics within and amongst the generating force branches within the Army is just out of control, but since its chock-o-block with military civilians, its not something easily fixed. |
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