The Army is far from a monolithic entity in this regard. It's a two front war.

I've read from combat veteran(s) on this site that they assume that there will be no CAS if the enemy has significant air defense capability so LAAR's loss of utility is moot, unless you disagree with that assumption.

Time to get some intra-service alignment then.

Both need to occur at the same time.

There is plenty of aviation to be done by LAAR aircraft on the blue side of the FEBA in MCO.

ROAR

 

I'm back home, and before I take my kid to the pool, I'll try to address some of these- starting with this one:

1) Why did the French provide faster CAS than the USAF during 08-09?  If you're talking about Afghanistan, the answer is: They didn't.  You see, ALL coalition aircraft lined as CAS on the ATO belonged to the ASOC.  So if what you're alleging is that the French responded to a TIC declaration, then what actually happened is that the ASOC tasked a French aircraft to a TIC.  If this became a trend, it's likely an artifact of where they were fragged to operate in the AO; the area they were fragged to also happened to be where TICs were happening.  So, regardless of which coalition parnter provided the asset to ISAF, the ASOC, under the JFACC is the one who tasked it.

2) I would say that the USAF has learned a lot from all of its coalition partners, both in what to do and what not to do.  I think the whole Libyan episode was very educational.

3) Not sure what you're asking there.  When there's metal screaming through the airspace, we tend to get our assets OUT of that airspace ricky tick.  There are lots of ACMs that are implemented to facilitate aircraft operating in a joint fire environment.  Prime example being ROZs, as well as ACMs like the Coordinating Altitutde and callouts like MAXORD in preparation to artillery fire

4) I'm assuming you're referring to something specific and anecdotal.  My default answer would be twofold:  First, there are the ROE.  Secondly, NO ONE, except for the CFACC himself, can assume responsibility for an aircraft's bombs over the aircraft commander.

5) Not enough information, but I assume that night just happened to be when they were fragged to fly.  B-1s, as a function of their operating altitude, should have no problems during a daytime sortie.  If they left while they were still needed, I can only assume that they were out of gas.

6) AC-130's are owned by SOCOM in theater.  Not even I could get them.  I would have LOVED to have authority over them.  They're incredible assets, if limited in the times they fly.  Unfortunately, they are exceedingly rare.

I'd say it's that ALWAYS having a Plan B, Plan C, .... Plan Z are critical.  (Be flexible)

Apaches don't hover as high or nearly as long as a c130. The AC130 is like a mythical creature while the Harvest Hawk is ready to go with "precision" weapons. Imagine if the Army could afford to provide organic CAS over watch for line company patrols.

70 years of inertia are hard to overcome.

But you are fundamentally correct.

Revisiting...

I'm going to try to keep a respectful tone here.  Your lack of respectful bearing and quibbling demeanor call into question your professionalism.  Instead of taking the opportunity to have a discussion, where people can learn from each other, you decided to harp on petty typos?  This shows me you have poor prioritization skills, so it's good for everyone that you were never entrusted with the responsibility of tasking CAS in response to enemy action.  But now that I'm on a proper keyboard, I expect my typing will come closer to meeting your expectations.  You may want to search out some of my other thread for a more representative sample of my general composition skills.  I might recommend my thread on my visit to Auschwitz for starters.

But I digress.

The thing is, you're too focused on the "customer".  "Well, isn't CAS supposed to support the ARMY???"

Well... and this might be a hard pill to swallow, but the answer to that is "kind of".  The ultimate goal in any operation is to support strategy.  And while the loss of any life is tragic, and mission success is never guaranteed, you have to make tough decisions and do the best with what you can.

Those airplanes you'd like every ground unit to have?  Yeah... they don't exist.  Neither does the gas to keep them all aloft.  Same goes for the maintainers who make them go vrrroooom!  Not enough of those guys.  Tankers to bring in the gas?  They're preciously rare as well.  Airfields?  Nope... not enough of them... and they've got a nasty habit of taking a lot of time and resources to build if they don't happen to be conveniently located where you want them.  Bombs?  Expensive, have to be transported from point A to point B... something something fuses and oh yeah... limited resource as well.  Air power is HDLD-  High Demand, Low Density.  It has to be rationed out...

Air Support Request for overwatch turned down on your convoy?  That sucks, but your convoy didn't rate in the CFC's priorities.  Take it up with Fires.  You only got CAS AFTER a TIC declared?  Well... good.  I hope it got there in time and did some good.  The USAF can't teleport aircraft.  Crew duty days are limited (though with some flex).  Maintenance hours are brutal.

Air power has to be consolidated in order to make the whole thing work.  You have to look at second, third, fourth order effects.  Gas, life support, foot print, ammo, Mx, etc.  You cut that up into every Joe wants his A-10 and what do you get?

If people like ARFCOM's little darling Sylvan got their way you'd have a bunch of broke jets, no gas for them, no ammo, no way to get ammo or gas, dead maintainers, and overrun airfields.

It's a very naive and selfish way of looking at it.  "*I* want *my* CAS, because... because... da guys on the ground!!!"

Yeah I get it.  You're looking at a CRT monitor trying to tell me that it's a computer.  You don't understand.

I've actually sat in the chair and had to make the call that, nope... sorry army unit... you don't get CAS for your convoy, even when I've had a bad feeling about it for whatever reason.  But you have to keep your priorities in line with strategy.  Sometimes those decisions have cost lives, and that sucks, but in the end, it's not about the troops, ti's about mission accomplishment.

At the same time, I've also gone toe-to-toe with Fires or the SODO, and re-allocated airpower that- if I stuck strictly to the numbers, I wouldn't have been totally justified in.  In each of those instances, I had to have that decision supported by hard facts, and I had to fight for it, perform a mountain of coordination and consultation with units who'd then go without support until a backfill could be worked...  and I had to be ready to stand on the carpet.

So you and folks like you can whine about the magic that is air power not fulfilling your desires without ever understanding the gigantic octopus of factors that make it happen.  That's ok.  It also makes me somewhat relieved that the USAF is the one executing, because our way- we're saving a LOT more friendlies and killing a LOT more baddies.

I'm off to take my kid to the pool.  I expect this thread will be way more interesting when I return.

Its not like the corps has hundreds of KC-130s at their disposal and they will still fly during the fucking daytime.

The airforce struggle for relevance in the GWOT has been laughable to watch. Like a fat girl throwing herself at the captain of the football team. AFSOC and airlift are the only real contributions that would have been missed if they had sat out and spent the last 10yrs preparing for space war with china instead of acting like they give a shit about moving mud.

They can tack "expeditionary"  in front of anything they want but it doesnt mean anyone believes it.

This is an armed Army fixed wing aircraft, right?

Without a doubt he has answered this, but I can tell you they did some for us in Iraq, and we were very appreciative.  

Then they got a bit too froggy, and fucked up one of our guys.  

CAS Explained.
Army/ Airforce




Marines / Navy

The only guy I'll allow to perform an appendectomy on me:

Roger. I basically grew up an Air Force brat, although my dad was a DOD scientist/engineer for many of the systems you have managed operationally....LANTIRN, F-15E, B-1B, JDAM, GH, etc.

I'm quite aware of the USAF force structure and the limitations of assets, 2nd-4th order effects, and you're making our argument for us with this post.

When I was a kid, the gee whiz multimillion dollar fast movers were awesome to watch at air shows, climb into, and witness day after day.  

They aren't really ideal platforms for the types of wars we have been fighting, except for maybe Desert Storm.

I'm a team player, and never was in a unit that requested air for convoy movements.  We didn't really do convoys.  I spent all my time on foot, usually well forward of the FEBA, or pressing it.

I don't need to be brought up to speed on how things work, or the logistics and asset management side for USAF.

I know that every lower echelon unit isn't going to have their personal A-10 on standby, believe me.  Even when they are priority to you, time to station feels like an eternity, and I've called in both F-16C's and A-10A's.  Biggest problem is that they don't have a lot of loiter time, and once the ordnance is dumped, they're gone.  The A-10 is obviously better equipped of the two, but still lacks the loiter time we really need.  Once they are there, accuracy of the system is often less than ideal, fratricide aside, and then they are gone.

The source of these problems boils down to several factors:

* Disconnect in US foreign policy and tools for implementation of that policy
* Lack of integration of Joint Component Land Forces and Joint Component Air Forces
* Inter-service rivalry, not on the same team, friction
* USAF doctrine
* Army doctrine
* USAF control of FW CAS
* CAS platforms being envisioned, designed, and manufactured to a set of performance capabilities that are out of touch with reality

I think integrating the training, development, and assignments of the delivery truck drivers and consumers could go a long way to addressing this, in a worst-case scenario where we are left stuck with the same equipment, but I am realistic in saying that the egos involved will stand in the way of that.

What we were doing in Millennium Challenge seemed to show some promise in terms of breaking down the service barriers, even though it was a RIGEX as to outcome, but I saw a lot of potential to eroding the service rivalry we all have been trained to follow by the cultures of the services, rather than play on the same team.  Sorry for coming across as accusatory and critical of your typos.  I'm pretty OCD when it comes to handheld commo devices.

We do need to address the Air Component force structure for asymmetric warfare campaigns, rather than try to force a Cold War framework onto expeditionary operations that require tailoring the force.  

We have only been doing this stuff continuously for a century...

With all the dick measuring going on in this thread I'd say he's just performing to the level of his competition.

Have you ever had a pilot refuse orders?

 

the army can have armed, manned rotary wing
the army can have unarmed, manned fixed wing (though we are effectively out of that business now)
the army can have armed, unmanned fixed wing.
the army cannot have armed manned fixed wing because it makes the baby jesus cry.

all that being said, UAVs are good at some missions.  Specifically Surveillance, where they are the tits.

CAS isn't one of them, however, unless you define CAS as smack-a-grid.

My point being that armed UAVs weren't covered in the Key West agreement.  Neither were attack helicopters.  Both of those items were negotiated after the fact.  The agreement wasn't engraved in stone tablets by God.  If Army can wedge in capabilities beyond the original recon and MEDEVAC, it can keep pushing the limit and incorporate armed light turboprops.  

Army cares enough to make a case for an organic capability or it doesn't.

You've already made the case that the USAF is either not up to the mission or accords it a priority so low that everything else will come ahead of CAS.  Stop going to the well.  It's clearly dry.

i was going to reply to that spew of bullshit, but I realized the more he types, the more he makes my point.

FOBBIT lecturing meat eaters.
5 SF guys will never take their kids to the pool again because of attitudes like that.

Agreed.
Casey wanted no fixed wing in the Army.

So the guy who got relieved in Iraq is the one choosing the strategic direction of the army.

Gone for more than 3 years now.  Time, tide, and formation wait for no man.

 

* except for his DV airlift C-12, C-20 and C-37s...

you're a sorta sailor, inertia mean anything to you?

They did that once upon a time... OV-1 Mohawk. The USAF was less than pleased and tried to kill it.

you should try sitting in a meeting with some chairforce asshole spouting that horseshit with their usual perspective of powerpoint and excel-as-warfare... and try not going over the table at them.

key difference is he has sat in the chair.
I have walked up the mountain.

Its my ass thats on the line, not his.
Its funny he can talk about mission accomplishment mattering when AC-130s won't fly during the day.  but somehow the bulletproof Kiowas and Apaches can do it (not to mention Chinooks and Blackhawks.)

If the AF gave 10% of the fuck about mission accomplishment as they do service equities, there'd be no complaints from stupid little infantryman like me.

Blowing up significant air defense is what actually should be the air forces job.

 

Hysterical analysis

Love this thread though. Tag.

I respect your opinion but in the grand scheme of things... whoopty-fuckin-doo.
Your opinion doesn't matter more because your life is on the line. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Everybody has a job to do. You do yours, the guy in the chair does his. Nobody's going to do it all and nobody in this thread has the ability to change current policy on CAS. So sitting here bitching at each other over something you really can't do anything about is an exercise in mental masturbation.

There needs to be different force structure packages by design.

* One for conventional war that no military in the world will ever want to go toe to toe with

* The one we actually go to war with

We've been fighting wars with the former for a long time now, and they just don't fit, especially the air component.

so dead soldiers aren't a strategic liability?

"support" what does that mean, anyway?

Having been on the receiving end of Army style support and AF style support, the AF sucks at it.

And they do it while costing a fortune.  maybe you should GAF as a taxpayer.

Gotta ask, what do you do in blue?

That's true for both strategic services, the USN as well.  So when there isn't enough money to procure two fighting forces, one for MCO and one for LIC/COIN, which do you procure and structure for?  You can fight LIC with an MCO force, granted not as efficiently as if you were using a force tailored to specific needs.  You absolutely cannot fight MCO with a force optimized for COIN/LIC.  

The USN cannot be 50% littoral and COIN focused forces, and neither can the AF.  In light of budget realities we procure for the toughest fight and adapt those tools to our low intensity needs.  

It's not as if the Army was equipped to fight the type of wars we have been fighting for the last decade either.  The truth is it's easier and quicker to replace thin skinned Humvees with MRAPs (all of which are getting scrapped now, several billion dollars later) than it is to procure new aircraft or ships.  The timeline is simply different.

 

LAAR was doable.  We did MRAPs.  We did UAVs.  AF chose not to.  I'd be curious to find out where the demand came from from 07-09 and why it went away.
And the utilization of C130s, at least in Afghanistan, was ridiculously low.

CH-47s flying from one C-130 airstrip to another.

Intratheater airlift can be a life saver.  But with our rotary wing pissed away doing the AF's job, you end up driving.  and you end up dying.

and it takes more soldiers to cover the same AO when you are road bound.

I had an A-10 driver refuse to go home. Long story best not typed on an phone

This thread would make so much more sense to me if I knew what any of these acronyms meant.

generally speaking we make them up as we go.

you can infer meaning from context.

it would probably make the thread more fun and informative.

On LAAR, I agree. We created the MC-12 in record time and had them in theater.  

On intra-theater airlift, I can only speak authoritatively about Iraq since I was part of that mission.  What base in Afg did/do we have with sufficient ramp space for a reasonable number of C-130s?  

In my last C-130 deployment we only missed one scheduled sortie in four months, and we moved hundreds of thousands of personnel and millions of pounds of cargo all over Iraq.  The unit moved heaven and earth to meet our taskings, with broken down old E model C-130s primarily.  

I've heard the frustrations about our inter-theater lift posted by yourself and others that really show a fundamental lack of understanding of the system.  I was able to use it to (legally and by the book) move cargo and personnel all over the theater on literally 30 minutes notice, I'm sorry that every logistician can't be bothered to learn how to do the same.

Hey, like I said. I respect your opinion. Yes, absolutely, dead soldiers are a problem. I'm just suggesting that your opinion isn't going to change a damn thing. So maybe you shouldn't get so amped up. You're very emotional about something OP didn't create and neither of you can change. Such decisions are made way above your pay grade. Doesn't mean you don't have a right to an opinion but getting so wrapped up in it and pointlessly aiming your ire at OP because his opinion (which is equally inconsequential in the long run) is ultimately futile. Do it all you can... put all your effort into it... then step back and analyze what you've accomplished.

And don't worry about the nature of the badge and gun I carry nor the authority I've been granted. Trust me, you wouldn't be impressed. But I refuse to drag my position into this just so you can continue your dick measuring contest. I have more respect for my position than to waste it in that way, as tame as my badge may be. Now put your dick away and chill a little.

Remember when Dick Butkus did that?