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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:07:12 AM EDT
[#1]
In to see where this goes.
And yes I have worked CAS. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:08:39 AM EDT
[#2]
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I'll just take this lawn chair over here with a beer and a smoke. You damn dirty smokers got room for 1 more? 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:09:31 AM EDT
[#3]
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It's irrelevant because the difference between Sylvan's wishlist for fire support and what was actually delivered isn't sufficient to accomplish whatever muddled strategic goals the US government thinks it has. Inadequacies in CAS notwithstanding, US ground forces already have no problem winning firefights. Having Zeus's lightning bolts on call by every squad leader would save some ground-pounder's lives. It wouldn't 'win' Afghanistan or Iraq. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In red is the real issue, and the way the airforce is approaching it Its only irrelevant if you ARE NOT the guy on the ground fighting with whatever you can carry The airforce wants to own the platforms, to the extent of telling the actual guy on the ground what he needs Every airforce officer from brand new lt to 4 star should be required to spend a year on the ground in Astan, or Iraq, or wherever, in a combat arms platoon, doing patrols and other fun dismounted shit. I am fairly certain that would at l;east open up some eyes to what the end user needs I am also fairly certain that wouldn't change the overwhelming want ofg the airforce to aquire more sexy super expensive jets that don't work very well and have a cost approaching that of an aircraft carrier. Basically the airforce says, we are the airforce, we are awesome, we are smarter than you. Go fuck yourself army, you can get support when and where we feel like it, from whatever we send, from whatever platform isn't down for maintanance, or to far away. It's irrelevant because the difference between Sylvan's wishlist for fire support and what was actually delivered isn't sufficient to accomplish whatever muddled strategic goals the US government thinks it has. Inadequacies in CAS notwithstanding, US ground forces already have no problem winning firefights. Having Zeus's lightning bolts on call by every squad leader would save some ground-pounder's lives. It wouldn't 'win' Afghanistan or Iraq. I'd disagree. We need to fight as a Joint team, but the way we fight in AF makes the IO more difficult. Much of that begins and ends with how we employ fires, ESP. Aerial fires. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:17:16 AM EDT
[#4]
The crazy thing is I know several very good dudes who were lost to bad CAS. The first one happened right before 9/11 to a buddy of mine from SWC/SOMTB. He had been injured in the trauma lanes by a piece of rebar, and when they did the surgery on him, Womack Army Medical Center left some gauze in his knee that caused the tissue to go necrotic, and he had to have it operated on again.
This was in the Special Forces Medical Sergeant Course, which he eventually graduated from...an uphill battle in and of itself, let alone sustaining life-threatening post operative injuries. Westberg was a hard soldier, in excellent shape, with a strong resolve and zero tolerance for BS getting in his way. He got assigned to 3rd Group, then deployed to Kuwait, and was killed in that incident. I learned last year that there was a female USAF FAC who was coordinating the USN F/A-18's into the Udairi impact area, and there was some attempt to place blame on the USAF enlisted JTAC on the ground to divert attention from the incompetence of the female FAC in the air. One of my other buddies who was also an 18D was one of the first responders to the scene, coming from another ODA in 3rd Group. He knew Westberg personally from the course, and provided care and evac to survivors. 
USA Today Article Troy James Westberg, 1971-2001 http://www.iupui.edu/~j21099/forms/newspapers/belowheadline.html The thing that is even more personal in this is that JD was one of our instructors at SOMTB, only to be killed late that year in Afghanistan by the same method.....namely bad CAS: 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:27:11 AM EDT
[#5]
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He meant fine, I think. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That was co-authored with a fine naval officer, btw. Isnt that an oxymoron?  I'm no Naval Officer Appologist, but I'd like to think we tend to be pretty good people (minus the SWO blue falcons, aviator d-bags, and I-went-intel-because-I'm-useless folks, obviously). |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:35:19 AM EDT
[#6]
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I'm no Naval Officer Appologist, but I'd like to think we tend to be pretty good people (minus the SWO blue falcons, aviator d-bags, and I-went-intel-because-I'm-useless folks, obviously). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That was co-authored with a fine naval officer, btw. Isnt that an oxymoron? I'm no Naval Officer Appologist, but I'd like to think we tend to be pretty good people (minus the SWO blue falcons, aviator d-bags, and I-went-intel-because-I'm-useless folks, obviously). I couldnt agree more. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:36:53 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryI'd disagree. We need to fight as a Joint team, but the way we fight in AF makes the IO more difficult. Much of that begins and ends with how we employ fires, ESP. Aerial fires. The problem is that the guys on the ground are employing the aeriel fires the planes are delivering them How would this work out if field artillery was a completely different service? The joint team concept works alot better when the higher echelon of the service gives a fuck about the service they are providing. (or mopre importantly being part of the team) In the airforce the pilots delivering cas give a fuck about it, the jtacs give a fuck about it, and the combat photographers care about it command level sees it as a distraction from the real mission, killing other airplanes in glorious air to air combat, and delivering bombs in nightvision shots shown on cnn The airforce delivers a service that we cannot provide ourselves, fixed wing air support. On the flip side we provide virtually nothing of that importance to the airforce. The only reason that the brass even cares to pretend about it is money. If its really a one team one fight kind of thing why do airmen get paid extra to live in the same quarters that i do? The airforce, as an institution, sees itself as the most important. It has all of the ego to go with it. I don't have a problem with the airforce, i don't hate it, i don't lay awake at night thinking about it What myself (and apparently plenty of others here) dislike, is the attitude of fuck you, you get what we give you. You (the airforce) took our planes, and promised to deliver a service. Deliver it, or give us (the army) the capabilities back Or even better yet, give us that money, so we can build more of, or design what we know we need |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:37:44 AM EDT
[#8]
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I'm no Naval Officer Appologist, but I'd like to think we tend to be pretty good people (minus the SWO blue falcons, aviator d-bags, and I-went-intel-because-I'm-useless folks, obviously). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That was co-authored with a fine naval officer, btw. Isnt that an oxymoron? I'm no Naval Officer Appologist, but I'd like to think we tend to be pretty good people (minus the SWO blue falcons, aviator d-bags, and I-went-intel-because-I'm-useless folks, obviously). You're the least officer, officer person I've ever met, in a good way
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:39:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're the least officer, officer person I've ever met, in a good way Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That was co-authored with a fine naval officer, btw. Isnt that an oxymoron? I'm no Naval Officer Appologist, but I'd like to think we tend to be pretty good people (minus the SWO blue falcons, aviator d-bags, and I-went-intel-because-I'm-useless folks, obviously). You're the least officer, officer person I've ever met, in a good way  I just never met any. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:40:30 AM EDT
[#10]
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You're the least officer, officer person I've ever met, in a good way Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That was co-authored with a fine naval officer, btw. Isnt that an oxymoron? I'm no Naval Officer Appologist, but I'd like to think we tend to be pretty good people (minus the SWO blue falcons, aviator d-bags, and I-went-intel-because-I'm-useless folks, obviously). You're the least officer, officer person I've ever met, in a good way It's easy when he went to a non-military academy to do a non-military job. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:42:14 AM EDT
[#11]
LRRPF52, what happened to ODA-574 stemmed from a horrible technical error, rather than USAF doctrine, organization, or Army/AF issues. The way you are stringing it together in your argument seems like an unnecessary swipe at the OP.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:59:47 AM EDT
[#12]
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LRRPF52, what happened to ODA-574 stemmed from a horrible technical error, rather than USAF doctrine, organization, or Army/AF issues. The way you are stringing it together in your argument seems like an unnecessary swipe at the OP. An error that wouldn't have occured: 1. If the pilot had been integrated with that team from the start of the mission, or, better yet, from the start of the operation. 2. With CCA. smush a grid is a recipe for disaster. McChrystal saw it. Hagenbeck was a hell of a lot less politically correct than others in his critique of the AF. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:02:59 AM EDT
[#13]
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An error that wouldn't have occured: 1. If the pilot had been integrated with that team from the start of the mission, or, better yet, from the start of the operation. 2. With CCA. smush a grid is a recipe for disaster. McChrystal saw it. Hagenbeck was a hell of a lot less politically correct than others in his critique of the AF. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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LRRPF52, what happened to ODA-574 stemmed from a horrible technical error, rather than USAF doctrine, organization, or Army/AF issues. The way you are stringing it together in your argument seems like an unnecessary swipe at the OP. An error that wouldn't have occured: 1. If the pilot had been integrated with that team from the start of the mission, or, better yet, from the start of the operation. 2. With CCA. smush a grid is a recipe for disaster. McChrystal saw it. Hagenbeck was a hell of a lot less politically correct than others in his critique of the AF. We don't know why the guys died...or why the bomb was dropped on them. We can argue convincingly there is a safer way to do it. It is an important distinction to make. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:07:05 AM EDT
[#14]
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LRRPF52, what happened to ODA-574 stemmed from a horrible technical error, rather than USAF doctrine, organization, or Army/AF issues. The way you are stringing it together in your argument seems like an unnecessary swipe at the OP. It's not intended as a swipe at the OP. I don't see how anyone can interpret it that way really. The PLGR batteries died, and when the JTAC replaced them, the last grid was their location, which he relayed to the B-52. My understanding is the B-52 bombadier asked them to check grid again, to which the reply was given that it was a good TGT grid. It wasn't. Those are some of the AAR comments I received from senior SF NCO's second hand. Not sure if they are accurate, but I don't have any reason to disbelieve the source. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:12:44 AM EDT
[#15]
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We don't know why the guys died...or why the bomb was dropped on them. We can argue convincingly there is a safer way to do it. It is an important distinction to make. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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LRRPF52, what happened to ODA-574 stemmed from a horrible technical error, rather than USAF doctrine, organization, or Army/AF issues. The way you are stringing it together in your argument seems like an unnecessary swipe at the OP. An error that wouldn't have occured: 1. If the pilot had been integrated with that team from the start of the mission, or, better yet, from the start of the operation. 2. With CCA. smush a grid is a recipe for disaster. McChrystal saw it. Hagenbeck was a hell of a lot less politically correct than others in his critique of the AF. We don't know why the guys died...or why the bomb was dropped on them. We can argue convincingly there is a safer way to do it. It is an important distinction to make. My understanding is the batteries were just changed out on the targeting device, which caused latent/incorrect position information to be transmitted to the aircraft. Mistakes happen, especially under stress. Being in one branch of service or the other doesn't make you immune from them. But, this isn't to say that we can't and shouldn't do better. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:12:59 AM EDT
[#16]
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whats the use of having Intercontinental bombers just so you can forward deploy them? oh. wait. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is a highly centralized FAC process really appropriate in a nation the size of Texas, where are support is flying in from thousands of miles away? whats the use of having Intercontinental bombers just so you can forward deploy them? oh. wait. If you want your friends to destroy billion dollar aircraft, you can't leave them safely in the garage. TXL |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:19:17 AM EDT
[#17]
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Have you ever been supported by CAS in a firefight? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Time and again I see people post opinions and speculations about the use of Air Power in support of ground operations that suggests to me that there is a widespread misunderstanding of how the apparatus works. Have you ever been supported by CAS in a firefight? Lolz. Has OP served as an etac/jtac/balo? |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:22:34 AM EDT
[#18]
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SO what we have here ... The OP runs a food delivery service business. He feeds hot meals to thousands every day. These are delivered hot, fresh and ready to eat. He has a limited budget, not enough delivery trucks and he is proud of the delicious meals despite the lack of resources On the other side, we have the patrons telling him he is serving breakfast for dinner, dinner at midnight, his food is cold and nobody was hungry by the time it arrived. That about sum it up? TRG Good summation IMO. TXL |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:24:23 AM EDT
[#19]
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Something something expeditionary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How come the USMC provides effect air-delivered fires via organically owned sorties, while the USAF refuses to use that model? Why did the USN and USMC doctrinally ensure that a percentage of their sorties are not provided to the JFACC? Something something expeditionary. Didnt you hear? "Expeditionary" is the buzzword du jour in the air force. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:41:35 AM EDT
[#20]
My first thought when I saw this thread - "There will be blood".
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:42:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Imagine if they had air support at the beginning of the TIC? Or even before? They might have actually killed some bad guys. Sweet its the aim 9 expert Imagine if the army had some sort of mechanism to ask for airpower and knew where to put it, Just think how many enemies we could kill. Well I guess it would only work if the army could coordinate operations between the SOF and conventional army, knew what mission were likely to end in a cluster fuck (ie the ones that ended with troops w/o planned RW support), stop requesting Overwatch for a fucking BBQ at the FOB, and understand that there is only a limited number of sorties and AFG is a huge fucking place to move between. When you get that correct you maybe could start talking shit about support. Hell, you cant even cord RW assets correctly in your OWN fucking service. I cant wait for you to tell me how the LAAR would help in this situation. Its sad your experiance in OIF has jaded you so much you dont even grasp the logistical concepts at work in a different environment. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:45:14 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Serious question: how much of that is an AF problem and how much of that is a Congress problem? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That the AF buys the wrong airplanes because they fight with a doctrine designed to fight a war that airpower theory strongly suggests (and history has so far proven) we will never fight is the heart of my argument. Serious question: how much of that is an AF problem and how much of that is a Congress problem? You know like we don't have to follow the NSS, fuck that nonsene. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:54:57 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An error that wouldn't have occured: 1. If the pilot had been integrated with that team from the start of the mission, or, better yet, from the start of the operation. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:55:35 AM EDT
[#24]
LOL, armchair generals.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 12:07:21 PM EDT
[#25]
In Afghanistan, who has the authority to authorize an air strike within 300m of a Mosque?
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Posted: 6/10/2014 12:19:23 PM EDT
[#26]
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In Afghanistan, who has the authority to authorize an air strike within 300m of a Mosque? is this a board question? |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 12:26:50 PM EDT
[#27]
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is this a board question? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In Afghanistan, who has the authority to authorize an air strike within 300m of a Mosque? is this a board question? Nope, I always wondered who had the power to authorize one. We could never get fires or air authorized to hit targets that were within 300m of a Mosque. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 12:38:46 PM EDT
[#28]
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So how does a ALO unfuck a unknown problem they more than likely would have not known about? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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An error that wouldn't have occured: 1. If the pilot had been integrated with that team from the start of the mission, or, better yet, from the start of the operation. Who needs an ALO? If the same pilots work with the same maneuver elements and communicate directly that reduces the friction. Now, on the details of the maneuver element, how much the ODA was changing position is questionable. However, considering they were with Karzai, they weren't moving much. A crew that had worked regularly with that ODA would have recognized the bad grid. But when its whatever pilot is on the roster flying where ever, these mistakes are much more likely to happen. Showing up after the fight has started is the first problem. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 12:39:22 PM EDT
[#29]
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Nope, I always wondered who had the power to authorize one. We could never get fires or air authorized to hit targets that were within 300m of a Mosque. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In Afghanistan, who has the authority to authorize an air strike within 300m of a Mosque? is this a board question? Nope, I always wondered who had the power to authorize one. We could never get fires or air authorized to hit targets that were within 300m of a Mosque. Depends. Army aviation? Senior Ground Commander. AF? 3 star general. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 12:41:50 PM EDT
[#30]
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Sweet its the aim 9 expert Imagine if the army had some sort of mechanism to ask for airpower and knew where to put it, Just think how many enemies we could kill. Well I guess it would only work if the army could coordinate operations between the SOF and conventional army, knew what mission were likely to end in a cluster fuck (ie the ones that ended with troops w/o planned RW support), stop requesting Overwatch for a fucking BBQ at the FOB, and understand that there is only a limited number of sorties and AFG is a huge fucking place to move between. When you get that correct you maybe could start talking shit about support. Hell, you cant even cord RW assets correctly in your OWN fucking service. I cant wait for you to tell me how the LAAR would help in this situation. Its sad your experiance in OIF has jaded you so much you dont even grasp the logistical concepts at work in a different environment. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Imagine if they had air support at the beginning of the TIC? Or even before? They might have actually killed some bad guys. Sweet its the aim 9 expert Imagine if the army had some sort of mechanism to ask for airpower and knew where to put it, Just think how many enemies we could kill. Well I guess it would only work if the army could coordinate operations between the SOF and conventional army, knew what mission were likely to end in a cluster fuck (ie the ones that ended with troops w/o planned RW support), stop requesting Overwatch for a fucking BBQ at the FOB, and understand that there is only a limited number of sorties and AFG is a huge fucking place to move between. When you get that correct you maybe could start talking shit about support. Hell, you cant even cord RW assets correctly in your OWN fucking service. I cant wait for you to tell me how the LAAR would help in this situation. Its sad your experiance in OIF has jaded you so much you dont even grasp the logistical concepts at work in a different environment. If I knew where the taliban was going to be 4 days in advance, I wouldn't need any airplanes. But, lets reverse the question, if I request AF CAS 4 days in advance, can you guarantee I'll get it? IF not, why plan for something you might not get? to reverse it, I want you to develop an ATO. Only I won't tell you how many planes you get until the same day. You might get 30. You might get 5. You might get tankers and AWACS, you might not. You really don't know. Sound like a good way to run an air war? Because thats they way you expect ground forces to run their war. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 12:57:13 PM EDT
[#31]
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I cant wait for you to tell me how the LAAR would help in this situation. Its sad your experiance in OIF has jaded you so much you dont even grasp the logistical concepts at work in a different environment. So the LAAR is a bad idea because of its logistics footprint, but the B-1 at $1 million a sortie is responsible use of taxpayer resources? |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:01:39 PM EDT
[#32]
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So the LAAR is a bad idea because of its logistics footprint, but the B-1 at $1 million a sortie is responsible use of taxpayer resources? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I cant wait for you to tell me how the LAAR would help in this situation. Its sad your experiance in OIF has jaded you so much you dont even grasp the logistical concepts at work in a different environment. So the LAAR is a bad idea because of its logistics footprint, but the B-1 at $1 million a sortie is responsible use of taxpayer resources? fuck yeah. LAAR would be forward in shitty bases with lousy food. B-1 chillin' in Qatar. Big FAT STEAKS. swimming pools, movie stars. Do you understand the logistics of getting Qatar quality food out to the COPs and FOBs? No, you don't. In fact, I'll go ahead and say it. You fail to think strategically. 1K an hour is nothing compared to the price of good chow. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:01:47 PM EDT
[#33]
You say CAS, I think of a platform designed to preform a CAS role
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:01:52 PM EDT
[#34]
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It's easy when he went to a non-military academy to do a non-military job. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You're the least officer, officer person I've ever met, in a good way It's easy when he went to a non-military academy to do a non-military job. I contend that I am the most POG .mil member on all of ARF. That's actually not true, because I drill, and I know there are other SSOs here that don't do anything but sit on IRR and soak up the bennies.
But it's still a humorous, if dubious, distinction. In a wild attempt to keep this post even remotely relevant, I will say that just like being in a bad relationship, doing a job you don't want to do in order to hang onto a tiny sliver of budget and command authority is silly. If things aren't working out, just break up. Is it really worth staying together just for the infrequent and mediocre-at-best sex? If the mission is to support the infantry, and the infantry says you aren't doing it, and you don't want to listen to them... then just leave. Don't make them cheat on you with organic assets. Don't make them go to Rusted Ace's Whorehouse (the thought of such a thing existing terrifies me). Just break up so you can both go see other people and be happier for it. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:04:26 PM EDT
[#35]
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SO what we have here ... The OP runs a food delivery service business. He feeds hot meals to thousands every day. These are delivered hot, fresh and ready to eat. He has a limited budget, not enough delivery trucks and he is proud of the delicious meals despite the lack of resources On the other side, we have the patrons telling him he is serving breakfast for dinner, dinner at midnight, his food is cold and nobody was hungry by the time it arrived. That about sum it up? TRG Hammer Nail
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:16:25 PM EDT
[#36]
I heard that helicopters provided better overall CAS than fixed wing and that other than their limited endurance were outstanding in their ability to find, fix and destroy the enemy working with ground elements. Can you speak to that?
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:17:25 PM EDT
[#37]
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What do you see happening with the the AC130s now that the Harvest Hawks are up and running? Nothing. Side firing aircraft are the best CAS platforms available. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:21:35 PM EDT
[#38]
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lol for fucking real, professor. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:23:08 PM EDT
[#39]
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Who needs an ALO? If the same pilots work with the same maneuver elements and communicate directly that reduces the friction. Now, on the details of the maneuver element, how much the ODA was changing position is questionable. However, considering they were with Karzai, they weren't moving much. A crew that had worked regularly with that ODA would have recognized the bad grid. But when its whatever pilot is on the roster flying where ever, these mistakes are much more likely to happen. Showing up after the fight has started is the first problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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An error that wouldn't have occured: 1. If the pilot had been integrated with that team from the start of the mission, or, better yet, from the start of the operation. Who needs an ALO? If the same pilots work with the same maneuver elements and communicate directly that reduces the friction. Now, on the details of the maneuver element, how much the ODA was changing position is questionable. However, considering they were with Karzai, they weren't moving much. A crew that had worked regularly with that ODA would have recognized the bad grid. But when its whatever pilot is on the roster flying where ever, these mistakes are much more likely to happen. Showing up after the fight has started is the first problem. No denying that. However, I was just a lowly AF cop so anything more is way outside my lane and anything I say will come off as callous, cold and piss a shit ton of people off. In my totally uninformed opinion, there may be enough planes and pilots for your suggestion to work. I really doubt it though. Short term, possibly. Long term you will probably be putting every plane in depot very quickly. The AF is stuck with idiots at the top, idiots in Congress and vast differences in how entire Commands look at the AF. Because of that, the wrong people are in charge of making service wide decisions. In my 6 year run, my impression of AF leadership development is it is rather myopic. Very much not my department talk to so and so. I'm not saying other services or even communities with the AF are better or worse. I think there are assets that could be moved back to the Army and I think, while we would still have asset/doctrine conflicts, if procurement didn't take 20+years; assets, capabilities and doctrine would align far more closely. ETA: Btw, the steaks weren't really that good in Qatar nor the seafood. The pool was usually closed due to some idiot jumping in with an open smallpox sore. The made to order omelets and kiwis were nice though. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:26:09 PM EDT
[#40]
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Nothing. Side firing aircraft are the best CAS platforms available. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What do you see happening with the the AC130s now that the Harvest Hawks are up and running? Nothing. Side firing aircraft are the best CAS platforms available. agreed, but it isn't that much better. Apaches orbit and it sucks when they do it. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:27:26 PM EDT
[#41]
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No denying that. However, I was just a lowly AF cop so anything more is way outside my lane and anything I say will come off as callous, cold and piss a shit ton of people off. In my totally uninformed opinion, there may be enough planes and pilots for your suggestion to work. I really doubt it though. Short term, possibly. Long term you will probably be putting every plane in depot very quickly. The AF is stuck with idiots at the top, idiots in Congress and vast differences in how entire Commands look at the AF. Because of that, the wrong people are in charge of making service wide decisions. In my 6 year run, my impression of AF leadership development is it is rather myopic. Very much not my department talk to so and so. I'm not saying other services or even communities with the AF are better or worse. I think there are assets that could be moved back to the Army and I think, while we would still have asset/doctrine conflicts, if procurement didn't take 20+years; assets, capabilities and doctrine would align far more closely. stop buying as many F35s and buy some shit that is cheaper. at this point, the savings from 100 F35s could buy 500 LAAR type aircraft AND crews. Planes have gotten to the point where the cost of the pilot is simply budget dust. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:31:55 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
stop buying as many F35s and buy some shit that is cheaper. at this point, the savings from 100 F35s could buy 500 LAAR type aircraft AND crews. Planes have gotten to the point where the cost of the pilot is simply budget dust. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No denying that. However, I was just a lowly AF cop so anything more is way outside my lane and anything I say will come off as callous, cold and piss a shit ton of people off. In my totally uninformed opinion, there may be enough planes and pilots for your suggestion to work. I really doubt it though. Short term, possibly. Long term you will probably be putting every plane in depot very quickly. The AF is stuck with idiots at the top, idiots in Congress and vast differences in how entire Commands look at the AF. Because of that, the wrong people are in charge of making service wide decisions. In my 6 year run, my impression of AF leadership development is it is rather myopic. Very much not my department talk to so and so. I'm not saying other services or even communities with the AF are better or worse. I think there are assets that could be moved back to the Army and I think, while we would still have asset/doctrine conflicts, if procurement didn't take 20+years; assets, capabilities and doctrine would align far more closely. stop buying as many F35s and buy some shit that is cheaper. at this point, the savings from 100 F35s could buy 500 LAAR type aircraft AND crews. Planes have gotten to the point where the cost of the pilot is simply budget dust. Or stop buying AH-64E and buy LAAR type aircraft... |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:33:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or stop buying AH-64E and buy LAAR type aircraft... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No denying that. However, I was just a lowly AF cop so anything more is way outside my lane and anything I say will come off as callous, cold and piss a shit ton of people off. In my totally uninformed opinion, there may be enough planes and pilots for your suggestion to work. I really doubt it though. Short term, possibly. Long term you will probably be putting every plane in depot very quickly. The AF is stuck with idiots at the top, idiots in Congress and vast differences in how entire Commands look at the AF. Because of that, the wrong people are in charge of making service wide decisions. In my 6 year run, my impression of AF leadership development is it is rather myopic. Very much not my department talk to so and so. I'm not saying other services or even communities with the AF are better or worse. I think there are assets that could be moved back to the Army and I think, while we would still have asset/doctrine conflicts, if procurement didn't take 20+years; assets, capabilities and doctrine would align far more closely. stop buying as many F35s and buy some shit that is cheaper. at this point, the savings from 100 F35s could buy 500 LAAR type aircraft AND crews. Planes have gotten to the point where the cost of the pilot is simply budget dust. Or stop buying AH-64E and buy LAAR type aircraft... Well, if the C-27J program is any indication.... |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:34:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or stop buying AH-64E and buy LAAR type aircraft... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No denying that. However, I was just a lowly AF cop so anything more is way outside my lane and anything I say will come off as callous, cold and piss a shit ton of people off. In my totally uninformed opinion, there may be enough planes and pilots for your suggestion to work. I really doubt it though. Short term, possibly. Long term you will probably be putting every plane in depot very quickly. The AF is stuck with idiots at the top, idiots in Congress and vast differences in how entire Commands look at the AF. Because of that, the wrong people are in charge of making service wide decisions. In my 6 year run, my impression of AF leadership development is it is rather myopic. Very much not my department talk to so and so. I'm not saying other services or even communities with the AF are better or worse. I think there are assets that could be moved back to the Army and I think, while we would still have asset/doctrine conflicts, if procurement didn't take 20+years; assets, capabilities and doctrine would align far more closely. stop buying as many F35s and buy some shit that is cheaper. at this point, the savings from 100 F35s could buy 500 LAAR type aircraft AND crews. Planes have gotten to the point where the cost of the pilot is simply budget dust. Or stop buying AH-64E and buy LAAR type aircraft... Or both. Just a better balance of the two. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:37:17 PM EDT
[#45]
The Apache is useful in the full spectrum of combat. LAAR loses utility about the time the enemy acquires significant ADA capability.
The Apache can use terrain to sneak around in a way that no FW can. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:38:44 PM EDT
[#46]
Neat thread. Some very interesting answers.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:39:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Apache is useful in the full spectrum of combat. LAAR loses utility about the time the enemy acquires significant ADA capability. The Apache can use terrain to sneak around in a way that no FW can. Helicopter deep strike is a bad idea. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:40:19 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Apache is useful in the full spectrum of combat. LAAR loses utility about the time the enemy acquires significant ADA capability. The Apache can use terrain to sneak around in a way that no FW can. apache is most useful before we have fixed wing airfields established. sneaking around is a good way to get a MANPAD up your ass. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:43:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Excellent point...
The USAF, and sadly much of Naval Aviation, cannot function outside the ATO construct. The problem is that attempting to fight a $50 Rent-a-Taliban, on a 8 hour planning cycle with functionally irreplaceable bomber on a $1,000,000 sortie on a 72 hour planning cycle is an exercise in first principle design failure. The USAF is flying its irreplaceable platforms into the dirt, and telling the rest of us that we don't understand air power. While this is true one thing is certain here. Curtis LeMay had a good idea when he pushed for Eugene Stoners brainstorm! 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 1:45:46 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, if the C-27J program is any indication.... So, for God knows how many years I've been reading on this board how bad the USAF sucks, not just at CAS, but in supporting the Army across the board. USAF lift sucks. We're using up our Chinooks because the USAF won't give us C-130s. The USAF boned our C-27Js. USAF won't provide CAS. When USAF provides CAS they do it from too high, too fast, too complicated, not enough time on station, and on and on and on and on. Some have made the case that for at least 25 years, the USAF hasn't supported the Army, won't support the Army, and believes that the USAF should be the supported service in every campaign. And your solution to this is to give the USAF a different platform and hope that they will support you? STOP BEING THE AIR FORCE'S BITCH if you're not happy with the state of play. Stop acting like some "agreement" is the inspired word of God or requires a 2/3 majority of Congress and the States to change. 23 years and 3 wars should be long enough to wait. Go out and buy AT-6s or Super Tucanos, or Air Tractors, dust of the A-1 TTP and update it to include employment PGMs like APKWS (yeah, Army you might actually have to finally buy some after you backed out of the program), Hellfire, and LJDAM. Unless the mission isn't important enough for you to do yourself and it's more important for you to just have something to bitch about... ETA - I don't have the experience to know whether or not the assertions regarding USAF support are true. My post, above, takes them at face value. |
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