ID this Big ol' Gun *Updated Pics & Details on Page 3 ** - Page 3

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ID this Big ol' Gun *Updated Pics & Details on Page 3 ** (Page 3 of 4)

Posted: 2/23/2012 2:25:12 PM EDT

[#1]

Any chance this is one of the British black powder safari guns?

Some of those were huge.

Manufacturers escapes me at the moment.

ETA: 4 bore elephant gun?

Posted: 2/23/2012 2:25:44 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

WANT!

Want want want!

Just to enhance your post...

Posted: 2/23/2012 4:20:39 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Try posting it over at surplusrifleforum, they may have an idea. Cool find!

Or maybe over at Cruffler.
http://www.cruffler.com/

Quoted:
it is not an AT rifle, the action is wrong. it's not a boys rifle either.

No, that thar is a man's rifle!

Yes, I've heard about the anti-tank Boys Rifle.

Posted: 2/23/2012 4:49:34 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Customized Gew 88?

Could be German

http://www.rjmilitaria.com/j21.

NM

It looks French.

Posted: 2/24/2012 9:58:25 AM EDT

[#5]

more info needed op!

Posted: 2/24/2012 12:02:47 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Ill give him $250 for it!

I have first dibs on page 1.

Posted: 2/24/2012 3:16:40 PM EDT

[#7]

needs more weekend researchers , title should be arfcom hive stumped

Posted: 2/24/2012 5:02:59 PM EDT

[#8]

The hive will only remain stumped until the OP slugs the bore and cast the chamber.

Without doing those things its impossible to say what caliber it or or what cartridge it fires.

Posted: 2/24/2012 5:12:54 PM EDT

[#9]

take the action out of the stock

Posted: 2/24/2012 5:26:21 PM EDT

[#10]

Posted: 2/26/2012 5:04:29 PM EDT

[#11]

Any new info?

Posted: 2/26/2012 5:37:03 PM EDT

[#12]

That's a big Ass Gun

Posted: 2/26/2012 5:45:55 PM EDT

[#13]

I'm going to guess .500 Jeffery or the like. Take the stock off and look under the barrel for a name or caliber.

Jk

Posted: 2/26/2012 6:02:10 PM EDT

[#14]

tag for answer

Posted: 2/26/2012 6:03:04 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I'm going to guess .500 Jeffery or the like. Take the stock off and look under the barrel for a name or caliber.

Jk

Too massive of an action, twist too slow (per description), action would lack some needed strength to handle any if the Nitro / Rigby / Jeffery / smokeless British rounds... My bet is .500 BP Express or the ilk. The Brits made some neat big bore black powder rifles that chucked massive amounts of lead out of the bore in the days leading up to the .450NitroExpress changing the game forever.

Have a look at "Baby" or some of the other big Brit rifles... Some chucked bullets that weighed around 1/4 pound or more.

Posted: 2/26/2012 6:36:39 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
. . .
but the caliber is going to be huge. .50 and above

it is not an AT rifle, the action is wrong. it's not a boys rifle either.

Then it looks like it qualifies as a destructive device under the NFA. What does the NFA paperwork say about it? You do have that right?

IF it's BP it aint a DD. Also, there are weird rules about guns above .50cal. Think 700 nitro express. Those aren't DD's and IIRC, it's because it's for "sporting purposes" I'm sure someone will correct me on that if I'm wrong though.

Black powder cartridge rifles can certainly be DDs.

Posted: 2/26/2012 6:45:48 PM EDT

[#17]

Don't believe it to be a .500 BPE as mine uses a .470 no. 3 case IIRC to lazy to look at now.

Posted: 2/26/2012 6:54:52 PM EDT

[#18]

Pretty cool find.

Posted: 2/26/2012 7:02:05 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I'm going to guess .500 Jeffery or the like. Take the stock off and look under the barrel for a name or caliber.

Jk

Um no. Maybe a .500 BPE, but not Jeff.

eta: somebody already posted the above......oh I DO WANT!

Posted: 2/26/2012 7:17:46 PM EDT

[#20]

I would post this on Nitroexpress.com or Accuratereloading.com. Lots of very knowledgeable people there, and good chance someone will know what it is....or even have one.

Posted: 2/26/2012 7:28:51 PM EDT

[#21]

It's already been mentioned, but I'm guessing some type of European hunting rifle used on big game.

Posted: 2/26/2012 7:34:09 PM EDT

[#22]

Maybe they mounted one of these in a "conventional" (non-PG) stock?

The 13.2mm Tank Abwehr Gewehr M1918
The worlds first anti-tank rifle, this was the only Anti-Tank rifle in use during WW1.
It was based on an over-grown Mauser action chambered for a 13.2 x 92mm semi-rimmed bottlenecked cartridge. The Tank Abwehr Gewehr, M1918 or T-Gewehr was capable of penetrating around 20mm of armour at 100 metres and 15mm at 300 metres, when striking at 90 degrees. Early tanks were protected by no more than 12mm of armour plate, as such this was a fairly effective weapon despite being cumbersome at 17.3kg and 1.68m long.

Picture linking is disabled but here's the site: http://www.antitank.co.uk/ww1_anti-tank_rifles1.htm

More info:

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=452

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Mauser_1918_T-Gewehr
At least they have pics:

Posted: 2/26/2012 7:35:46 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Maybe they mounted one of these in a "conventional" (non-PG) stock?

The 13.2mm Tank Abwehr Gewehr M1918
The worlds first anti-tank rifle, this was the only Anti-Tank rifle in use during WW1.
It was based on an over-grown Mauser action chambered for a 13.2 x 92mm semi-rimmed bottlenecked cartridge. The Tank Abwehr Gewehr, M1918 or T-Gewehr was capable of penetrating around 20mm of armour at 100 metres and 15mm at 300 metres, when striking at 90 degrees. Early tanks were protected by no more than 12mm of armour plate, as such this was a fairly effective weapon despite being cumbersome at 17.3kg and 1.68m long.

Picture linking is disabled but here's the site: http://www.antitank.co.uk/ww1_anti-tank_rifles1.htm

More info:

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=452

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Mauser_1918_T-Gewehr
At least they have pics:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Musee-de-lArmee-IMG_1006.jpg/800px-Musee-de-lArmee-IMG_1006.jpg

Nope already shot down as the action is wrong.

Posted: 2/26/2012 8:00:30 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Customized Gew 88?

HEAVILY customized.

Posted: 2/26/2012 8:01:23 PM EDT

[#25]

Tag for answer

Posted: 2/27/2012 12:01:31 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

[span style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:

Nope already shot down as the action is wrong.

Oops. Couldn't see all the pictures at work.

Posted: 2/27/2012 2:12:14 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Some sort of custom dangerous game rifle.

No proof marks? Is there a change the owner would take the gun out of the stock to look?

The recessed stock is interesting, I wonder if that is intended to be rested on a gun bearer's shoulder while shooting.

The slow twist, single shot, large bore configuration pretty well confirms an old custom black powder cartridge African gun in my opinion.

I was thinking something like a .577-wasn't there a .577 black powder express or similar?

Posted: 2/27/2012 2:12:56 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
.510 DTM? mic the barrel please.

Just fucking eyeball it and get it done. Sim-Pull.

Posted: 2/27/2012 2:18:34 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Some sort of custom dangerous game rifle.

No proof marks? Is there a change the owner would take the gun out of the stock to look?

The recessed stock is interesting, I wonder if that is intended to be rested on a gun bearer's shoulder while shooting.

The slow twist, single shot, large bore configuration pretty well confirms an old custom black powder cartridge African gun in my opinion.

I was thinking something like a .577-wasn't there a .577 black powder express or similar?

I've seen photos of black powder rifles up to 2 bore (8oz slug of lead

)....

Posted: 2/27/2012 2:20:52 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
I would post this on Nitroexpress.com or Accuratereloading.com. Lots of very knowledgeable people there, and good chance someone will know what it is....or even have one.

Lots of those guys are members here-and the .600 Nitro Express T/C Encore is owned by a member over there who has two 4 bore rifles. Yeah, he likes recoil.

Posted: 2/27/2012 2:26:16 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

I've seen photos of black powder rifles up to 2 bore (8oz slug of lead

)....

Yep, I'm well aware of those, suggesting a .577 class cartridge was based on the OP saying it is "at least .50 caliber". 2 bore or 4 bore would be MUCH bigger than that, as in "stick 3 fingers down the muzzle " big. Another possibility is a .450-500, but that's a nitro express round. Not "at least .50", but IIRC it is one of, if not the longest sporting cartridges in the world, and slightly longer than .50BMG. There might have been a blackpowder loading for that one too.

Posted: 2/27/2012 2:26:59 PM EDT

[#32]

Now That's A Gun !

Posted: 2/27/2012 2:30:56 PM EDT

[#33]

I think the guy who mentioned "Chinese Fortress Gun" comes the closest. The styling cues taken from the Gew88 are what convince me, along with the utter lack of proofing stamps. Whatever this thing is, it didn't come out of a European or US arsenal... Period. Black powder fortress gun, late 19th century would be how I'd identify it.

Posted: 2/29/2012 10:02:42 AM EDT

[#34]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/11/30/huge-chinese-75-caliber-fortress-rifle/

Posted: 3/1/2012 9:40:44 AM EDT

[#35]

Btt for a new set of eyes and any updates

Posted: 3/1/2012 9:49:18 AM EDT

[#36]

I'm telling you guys... Chinese Fortress Gun, most likely. Sometimes called a "Jingal".

Take a look at this thread over at Forgotten Weapons:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/chinese-jingal-wall-gun

There's a whole bunch of just plain "weird" that came out of China, back in the day. This is probably a part of it.

Posted: 3/1/2012 12:35:56 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Some sort of custom dangerous game rifle.

No proof marks? Is there a change the owner would take the gun out of the stock to look?

The recessed stock is interesting, I wonder if that is intended to be rested on a gun bearer's shoulder while shooting.

The slow twist, single shot, large bore configuration pretty well confirms an old custom black powder cartridge African gun in my opinion.

I was thinking something like a .577-wasn't there a .577 black powder express or similar?

I've seen photos of black powder rifles up to 2 bore (8oz slug of lead

)....

I handled a 4 bore muzzle loader last week end. Weighed about 18 pounds, and balanced pretty nicely after the barrel was shortened by 6 inches. The largest charge it has fired was 150 grains of black powder at that date.

Posted: 3/1/2012 1:45:42 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I'm telling you guys... Chinese Fortress Gun, most likely. Sometimes called a "Jingal".

Take a look at this thread over at Forgotten Weapons:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/chinese-jingal-wall-gun

There's a whole bunch of just plain "weird" that came out of China, back in the day. This is probably a part of it.

No way. Too many things point away from china.
The safety, the action design, the sights. Defiantly not Chinese.

My bet is an english big game rifle of some sorts out of the gun quarter. There were more no name gun makers turning out guns there then just about anywhere in the world IIRC.

Posted: 3/1/2012 3:47:21 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
I'm telling you guys... Chinese Fortress Gun, most likely. Sometimes called a "Jingal".

Take a look at this thread over at Forgotten Weapons:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/chinese-jingal-wall-gun

There's a whole bunch of just plain "weird" that came out of China, back in the day. This is probably a part of it.

This is a good possibility. I have shot most of the Dangerous game, and Nitro Express cartridges and collect the bolt-action varieties. The case-length of a .50 BMG is beyond that of a normal dangerous game length cartridge. Most of the BP, and Nitro Express British cartridges were for double rifles, single-shots, and were rimmed cartridges. Some bolt guns were made, but normally speaking the action length was not as long as presented here. The .700 NE is too modern for the age of the gun. The .505 Gibbs is shorter than a BMG as well as the Jeffery. There are several accounts of Dangerous game rifles such as the Jeffery being used in the War, due to them being expected to penetrate armor better than other cartridges. I have even heard of the .505 G being used as a counter sniper arm against German tactics ( source Wiki). Even Hemingway, carried his .577 SxS on his fishing boat, modified for anti-submarine use, because he felt it would damage the hull of the German subs. The early mis-conceptions of ballistics is astounding.

It might be a seriously modified 1918 T-G, but I feel the Jingal-wall-gun might be a contender as well (modified of course). If it were a Brit NE or BPE it would have proof marks on it somewhere (probably under the stock).

Whatever it is, it is a nice piece. It is probably worth more un-restored and untouched. However, if it were mine, I would have it restored, allocate some ammunition for it (after being casted to insure proper ammo / pressure). Or have some dies made for loading and find someone willing to produce the brass, and take it to the range, and possibly to the field. It would probably cost an arm and a leg, but the historical experience would be worth it for some. Nice Find

-PC-

Posted: 3/1/2012 3:53:50 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Customized Gew 88?

yep

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:56:33 PM EDT

[#41]

Ok Guys, I got another look at the rifle and was able to remove the barreled action from the stock. The pics are below. Couple of observations:
1. There are 2 steel bands that help hold the barreled action in the stock. 1 is just forward of the receiver and appears hexagon on the top but is rounded on the bottom. there is a smaller band much closer to the muzzle. It has a square bolt welded (brazed?) to it so that a machine screw has something to thread into from the undersize of the stock. Neither band it attached to the barrel. I was able to slide both forwards and back.

2. As I removed the action screws I noticed that all were actually cut down from a longer size. This clearly shows that this is a one off job, as if there was any question.

3. In addition to the 2 barrel bands there were 2 machine screws from the bottom metal that went up thru the stock and into the receiver.

4. There was a screw in the tang of the receiver that went down from the top

5. Lastly there was a screw that actually went from inside the bolt channel that was recessed so it cleared the bolt that went thru the stock and actaully threaded into the bottom metal behind the trigger guard.

6. As far as proof marks there were none.

7. The only writing was on the side of the trigger. It was electric penciled (or engraved) CM Richardson 1947

8. I could not see how the barrel attached to the receiver. There wasnt a lug per se. You can clearly see the point where they join in the pics. It looks like there may be a welded "key way"

9. I could not slug the barrel or cast the chamber. This info is about all we are going to get.
Here's the pics:

Posted: 3/22/2012 7:09:30 PM EDT

[#42]

Post a photo of the bolt.

If you look into the breech, you should be able to see threads for the barrel tenon.

I think it's a one off gun, but maybe someone will recognize the action now that it's exposed.

Posted: 3/23/2012 6:10:10 AM EDT

[#43]

From my semi-educated position, the rear sight (the part that flips up) appears to be Springfield '03 or late Krag, but the base ramp isn't. The steep curve even at short ranges implies something old.

Posted: 3/23/2012 7:10:08 AM EDT

[#44]

Entire rear sight assembly, including the base ramp, looks identical to the one on my Dad's 1898 Krag, right down to the range markings on the side of the base. The only difference is the small "notch" in the top of the sight ladder, and I'm guessing that may have been hand filed.

Pretty cool find, OP. Wish we knew who CM Richardson was.

Quoted:

From my semi-educated position, the rear sight (the part that flips up) appears to be Springfield '03 or late Krag, but the base ramp isn't. The steep curve even at short ranges implies something old.

Posted: 3/23/2012 7:39:28 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Entire rear sight assembly, including the base ramp, looks identical to the one on my Dad's 1898 Krag, right down to the range markings on the side of the base. The only difference is the small "notch" in the top of the sight ladder, and I'm guessing that may have been hand filed.

Pretty cool find, OP. Wish we knew who CM Richardson was.

Quoted:

From my semi-educated position, the rear sight (the part that flips up) appears to be Springfield '03 or late Krag, but the base ramp isn't. The steep curve even at short ranges implies something old.

I thought the Krag's ramp had a curve at the top and wasn't straight the whole way up.

Posted: 3/23/2012 10:09:05 AM EDT

[#46]

There are different variants of Krag rear sights. The rear sight on this rifle, and the one on my Dad's Krag, look like the one marked "1901" in this photo. But the sights marked "1898" and "1902" in the photo both have a curved ramp like you describe.

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/kca/Photos/riflesights.JPG

Posted: 3/23/2012 10:24:39 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

There are different variants of Krag rear sights. The rear sight on this rifle, and the one on my Dad's Krag, look like the one marked "1901" in this photo. But the sights marked "1898" and "1902" in the photo both have a curved ramp like you describe.

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/kca/Photos/riflesights.JPG

Nice!