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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:04:27 AM EDT
Was there a prior stamped, piston rifle like the Sturmgewhr?
I saw an interview with the old boy years ago and he got rather testy when this was mentioned. "Nyet, nyet...my design was totally deeferent!"  In my eye, the only real difference is the recoil spring placement. I think he did rip off the overall configuration for Mother Russia. It was a smart move, but not original. What have you to say on the matter? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:08:26 AM EDT
[#1]
Agreed, even if the operating system wasn't EXACTLY the same. That's kind of inconsequential. It's basically a product improved version. Hell even the rear sight is in the same retarded place. Hell, even we tried to do our own version of the MG42 when we designed the M60 and drew a lot of inspiration from it.
https://smallarmsreview.com/the-assult-rifle-comparison-of-the-soviet-ak47-to-the-german-stg44/ |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:09:52 AM EDT
[#2]
Of course it is. It's the Russian way.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:17:06 AM EDT
[#3]
He liked the Garand bolt better than the STG44's, though
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:18:01 AM EDT
[#4]
It’s a stg44 with a upside down Garand bolt that shoots shortened mosin nagant ammo.
ETA: Beat 
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:20:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Kalashnikov left a STG-44 and an M1 Garand in his workshop one weekend and when he returned nature had taken it's course.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:20:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a stg44 with a upside down Garand bolt that shoots shortened mosin nagant ammo. ETA: Beat This. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:24:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed, even if the operating system wasn't EXACTLY the same. That's kind of inconsequential. It's basically a product improved version. Hell even the rear sight is in the same retarded place. Hell, even we tried to do our own version of the MG42 when we designed the M60 and drew a lot of inspiration from it. https://smallarmsreview.com/the-assult-rifle-comparison-of-the-soviet-ak47-to-the-german-stg44/ "wasn't EXACTLY the same"--tilting bolt versus rotating is "kind of inconsequential" to you? They're not THAT alike, except inasmuch as they're both locked-breech designs with piston operation. That's....by that standard, the M1 and FAL differences are "kind of inconsequential", or the BAR and the M60. Or, hell, a P-51 and Me-262, because they both use the product of a combusting fuel-air mix in their engines to develop thrust. I get where y'all are coming from, but when the innards don't work the same way and the only thing they really have in common is a general external form factor...Convergent evolution is a thing, too. Similar doctrines, requirements, tactical need, etc. kind of tends to produce similar equipment. And yes, the AK development--or at least, the development that led to it--postdates the likely capture by Soviet troops of early StG types and predecessor models, so I'm absolutely not saying "no, they're totally different", but rather it's more like Kalashnikov and his team took the rough exterior of the StG, gutted it, and gave it innards they liked better. (Which happened to be near-as-dammit the M1 Rifle with a Remington Model 8 safety) |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:25:51 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kalashnikov left a STG-44 and an M1 Garand in his workshop one weekend and when he returned nature had taken it's course. In Soviet Russia, that sounds totally plausible.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:37:32 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "wasn't EXACTLY the same"--tilting bolt versus rotating is "kind of inconsequential" to you? They're not THAT alike, except inasmuch as they're both locked-breech designs with piston operation. That's....by that standard, the M1 and FAL differences are "kind of inconsequential", or the BAR and the M60. Or, hell, a P-51 and Me-262, because they both use the product of a combusting fuel-air mix in their engines to develop thrust. I get where y'all are coming from, but when the innards don't work the same way and the only thing they really have in common is a general external form factor...Convergent evolution is a thing, too. Similar doctrines, requirements, tactical need, etc. kind of tends to produce similar equipment. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Agreed, even if the operating system wasn't EXACTLY the same. That's kind of inconsequential. It's basically a product improved version. Hell even the rear sight is in the same retarded place. Hell, even we tried to do our own version of the MG42 when we designed the M60 and drew a lot of inspiration from it. https://smallarmsreview.com/the-assult-rifle-comparison-of-the-soviet-ak47-to-the-german-stg44/ "wasn't EXACTLY the same"--tilting bolt versus rotating is "kind of inconsequential" to you? They're not THAT alike, except inasmuch as they're both locked-breech designs with piston operation. That's....by that standard, the M1 and FAL differences are "kind of inconsequential", or the BAR and the M60. Or, hell, a P-51 and Me-262, because they both use the product of a combusting fuel-air mix in their engines to develop thrust. I get where y'all are coming from, but when the innards don't work the same way and the only thing they really have in common is a general external form factor...Convergent evolution is a thing, too. Similar doctrines, requirements, tactical need, etc. kind of tends to produce similar equipment. I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:49:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:30:01 AM EDT
[#11]
I think the first combat use was an emergency shipment airlifted to the Demjansk Pocket south of Leningrad 8 February to 21 April 1942, MKb42(h) or just MP43 or MP43/1 variants.
The first Soviet intermediate round was 7.62x41mm. The Soviet design and Simonov Carbine SKS are based on the 7.62x39 M1943 Cartridge finalized 1946 to 1947 |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:39:20 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Russians were definitely inspired by the MP44's smaller caliber, magazine fed rifle. The actual design and lockup of the gun was very different as others have pointed out. Also the Soviets were doing stamped guns well before the MP44 was fielded. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/header-18_jpg-3097421.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/header-18_jpg-3097421.JPG Interesting. What gun is that? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:42:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He liked the Garand bolt better than the STG44's, though And with good cause. (Does the tilting bolt on the STG cause issues with inconsistent accuracy, as it does in the FAL?) |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:46:34 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. What gun is that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/header-18_jpg-3097421.JPG Interesting. What gun is that?  Attached File Attached FileNot that any of this matters. We aren't going to change history it is only our opinions on the subject. Germany still lost the war, Russia sucks, and many of these guns were lost to time. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:55:08 AM EDT
[#15]
Big difference between a guy like Browning, who could create new ideas from scratch, vs. a guy like Kalishnakov, who could mix and match designs and work things out.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:57:51 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Big difference between a guy like Browning, who could create new ideas from scratch, vs. a guy like Kalishnakov, who could mix and match designs and work things out. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 6:45:10 AM EDT
[#17]
You do know there's a movie about the AK and Kalishnikov, right?
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Posted: 1/17/2024 6:59:28 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a FIFY    
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:04:40 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. Didn't the first AK that was deployed have a milled receiver? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:09:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't the first AK that was deployed have a milled receiver? Yeah lol I was wondering how long people would go thinking they were stamped. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:12:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah lol I was wondering how long people would go thinking they were stamped. Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah lol I was wondering how long people would go thinking they were stamped. Quoted: Didn't the first AK that was deployed have a milled receiver? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:18:20 AM EDT
[#22]
I thought early AKs were milled cause they were bad at stamping
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:23:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. What gun is that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/header-18_jpg-3097421.JPG Interesting. What gun is that? I don't mean to be bitchy here but you are claiming the AK was a STG44 derivative when you don't even know the basic history of Soviet arms design? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:36:36 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:38:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't mean to be bitchy here but you are claiming the AK was a STG44 derivative when you don't even know the basic history of Soviet arms design?  I mean they only made two million of them.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:39:00 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't mean to be bitchy here but you are claiming the AK was a STG44 derivative when you don't even know the basic history of Soviet arms design? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:46:16 AM EDT
[#27]
The 1st model AK was indeed stamped. It was produced for several years but the Sovs had QC issues, enough
that a "quick fix" milled receiver was produced for another several years until the bugs were worked out. Forgotten Weapons has a video out about it.  Type 1 Russian AK: The First Production Stamped AK (Updated) |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:54:45 AM EDT
[#28]
This is why I don’t get the problem of someone reproducing and building new versions of something like the STG44. You have all the specs,drawings and all the machinery,modern manufacturing techniques etc…..
What is so hard about reproducing a weapon when all the design work has been done for you? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:57:32 AM EDT
[#29]
Germans were the original masters of stampings.
The Soviets couldn't even perfect stamping an AK receiver until the 50s. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:58:20 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I don't get the problem of someone reproducing and building new versions of something like the STG44. You have all the specs,drawings and all the machinery,modern manufacturing techniques etc .. What is so hard about reproducing a weapon when all the design work has been done for you? Then after spending all that money will the "I wish they still made new mp44's" crowd be there when you charge $1500 for a new rifle? Many have been there before and failed miserably. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:59:56 AM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:02:21 AM EDT
[#32]
No. OP is fixating on the visual details. The AK is a Garand clone built in to the style of a Stg
https://youtu.be/J4l33puWET0  Did the AK47 Copy the STG-44? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:04:39 AM EDT
[#33]
Certainly the Russians copied the idea from the Sturmgewehr, but not the execution.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:04:52 AM EDT
[#34]
A couple more Forgotten Weapons videos that may help enlighten you, OP.
 Developmental History of the AK with Max Popenker  Russian Type 2 AK: Introducing the Milled Receiver |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:08:00 AM EDT
[#35]
The MP5 is just a CETME knockoff
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:09:14 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Germans were the original masters of stampings. The Soviets couldn't even perfect stamping an AK receiver until the 50s. Have you looked at an StG 44 receiver compared to an AK receiver? The Germans made stamping work by using an incredibly complex multi-part design. The Russians wanted a gun that was actually easy to produce. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:11:48 AM EDT
[#37]
I think I’ll largely agree with what has been said about “congruent evolution”.
The US had what I consider an intermediate cartridge (.30 Carbine) in, if I recall, 1940. Sure, it isn’t bottle-necked, but it is a 300 yard cartridge in a largely modern rifle configuration. The Germans had their MKb42 by 1942. The Soviets had their cartridge in 1943. If we want to make a little bit of a stretch the Russians had the Federov in 1915, but it being “intermediate” is more of a relative thing than absolute, so might be more akin to the BAR. Manual of arms for the Kalashnikov follows the Soviet submachinegun concepts. Right side charging. Ambidextrous magazine release. It’s a scaled up Soviet era submachinegun with a stamped receiver of simple construction, an already developed cartridge shoved into it, a very Soviet layout of controls with the exception of the Remington Model 8 safety (although this follows along with the PPSh41 in having the “safety” at the ejection port), and all based around an upside-down M1 Rifle gas system. Certain design choices are distinctly different from the MKb42 family. Not a two part receiver. No spring into the stock. Different layout of controls. Different safety. Different locking. It isn’t really any revolutionary new concepts (most guns aren’t), but of everything it does borrow from it actually doesn’t really show much MKb42-family DNA. Doctrinally it is very much Soviet. Mechanically it is quite American. In construction it is cheap Soviet SMG techniques. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:19:39 AM EDT
[#38]
Or maybe he ripped off the first burst fire assault rifle, the Breda PG.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:24:52 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The MP5 is just a CETME knockoff |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:33:58 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you looked at an StG 44 receiver compared to an AK receiver? The Germans made stamping work by using an incredibly complex multi-part design. The Russians wanted a gun that was actually easy to produce. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Germans were the original masters of stampings. The Soviets couldn't even perfect stamping an AK receiver until the 50s. Have you looked at an StG 44 receiver compared to an AK receiver? The Germans made stamping work by using an incredibly complex multi-part design. The Russians wanted a gun that was actually easy to produce. Not sure what you are saying. As I was saying the Soviets couldn't of copied it anyways if they wanted to |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:35:57 AM EDT
[#41]
To be fair, when you have decades of people who know fuckall about firearms design other than "It looka likea assault riffel" accusing your design of being a copy and you have to constantly explain the same thing over and over, I'd start getting kind of annoyed about it too.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:39:25 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a stg44 with a upside down Garand bolt that shoots shortened mosin nagant ammo. ETA: Beat Bingo…except for the ammo. SKS was already out and the cartridge wasn’t rimmed |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:47:21 AM EDT
[#43]
Is this breaking news to you?
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Posted: 1/17/2024 8:56:27 AM EDT
[#44]
Definetly the STG44 inspired the AK47 layout.
Internally it’s a different story. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:21:24 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be fair the original design and intention was a stamped receiver but they couldn't get it right so went to milling until they could get it right. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah lol I was wondering how long people would go thinking they were stamped. Quoted: Didn't the first AK that was deployed have a milled receiver? I thought they did have the receiver right but they were self destructing on full auto so they went milled until more testing could be done as Stalin wanted quantities. The stamped AK’s ended up using a rate reducer to slow down the rate of fire thus allowing the use of a stamped receiver. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:41:05 AM EDT
[#46]
While not an exact copy, there is no denying the STG 44 provided the template of the final form.
Of course a direct copy would be near impossible using Soviet manufacturing techniques, which were quite crude compared to German ones. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:41:45 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who has all the drawings and technical specifications? If someone even had those who is going to spend the money to tool up all the parts? You aren't cnc'ing a block of steel to represent a stamped part. What about known issues, are you going to knowingly build in the same issues when making new tooling? If you don't purists won't like it. Purists also won't consider a new mp44 to be collectible. Then after spending all that money will the "I wish they still made new mp44's" crowd be there when you charge $1500 for a new rifle? Many have been there before and failed miserably. Yeah that would be like getting the design specs for an iphone and expecting to make one in your garage. The tooling, dies, etc would be more important than the specs. Kalashnikov stated in an interview that he borrowed features from both the STG44 and Garand and added a few modifications of his own. Very few truly original designs out there. Bowning, Stoner, probably the people behind Glock were true innovators. The AR was truly an innovative design. iirc the STG is smoother shooting but the AK is more reliable, easier to maintain. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:43:01 AM EDT
[#48]
The Gun by CJ Chivers is a great book about the AK.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:43:44 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course it is. It's the Russian way. I don't know but is absolutely the CHInese way ! |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:43:46 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Russians were definitely inspired by the MP44's smaller caliber, magazine fed rifle. The actual design and lockup of the gun was very different as others have pointed out. Also the Soviets were doing stamped guns well before the MP44 was fielded. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/header-18_jpg-3097421.JPG That's a PPS43. Hardly well before. Look at the similarities between the PPSh-41 and the Suomi M31. Even the drum is basically identical. The AK was originally milled, not stamped. Lots of designs have lots of influences from other designs. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some MP44 influence. |
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