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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:43:52 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His ability to invent something, sell it to a company that patents it, and then turn around and invent something different to get around those patents to sell to a different company takes it to another level. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Big difference between a guy like Browning, who could create new ideas from scratch, vs. a guy like Kalishnakov, who could mix and match designs and work things out. 
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:47:31 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who has all the drawings and technical specifications? If someone even had those who is going to spend the money to tool up all the parts? You aren't cnc'ing a block of steel to represent a stamped part. What about known issues, are you going to knowingly build in the same issues when making new tooling? If you don't purists won't like it. Purists also won't consider a new mp44 to be collectible. Then after spending all that money will the "I wish they still made new mp44's" crowd be there when you charge $1500 for a new rifle? Many have been there before and failed miserably. I guess I took it for granted that when the allies went into the third reich and the factories were secured that some type of technical data packages were found. I know they were for other small arms as well as jets,tanks, etc….that information has been available for nearly 80 years. I know weapons technology has made leaps and bounds since then but it seems like it would be there. I guess the expense of tooling would depend on the market. You would certainly need a number of committed buyers before manufacturing say a run of 50 thousand rifles. I’m not sure if that’s a realistic goal because I don’t know the market but if they could be developed, built, tested, and used during a war I would think it could be done now. I agree that purists would hate it but there are lots of people who would want a reproduction without the cost of an original. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:50:32 AM EDT
[#3]
How many inventors "ripped off" the wheel? or the ball bearing?
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:54:51 AM EDT
[#4]
Why does this sound familiar?
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:57:37 AM EDT
[#5]
The AK receiver was milled, so there's that.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:58:27 AM EDT
[#6]
STGski?
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:03:18 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many inventors "ripped off" the wheel? or the ball bearing? Setting aside the possibility this is just a BS story from her father, he was a twenty-something machinist/tinker in rural Wyoming at the time the ball hitch was patented so it's plausible he independently came up with a similar idea himself but got to the patent office too late. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:04:37 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: STGski? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:26:21 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah that would be like getting the design specs for an iphone and expecting to make one in your garage. The tooling, dies, etc would be more important than the specs. Kalashnikov stated in an interview that he borrowed features from both the STG44 and Garand and added a few modifications of his own. Very few truly original designs out there. Bowning, Stoner, probably the people behind Glock were true innovators. The AR was truly an innovative design. iirc the STG is smoother shooting but the AK is more reliable, easier to maintain. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Who has all the drawings and technical specifications? If someone even had those who is going to spend the money to tool up all the parts? You aren't cnc'ing a block of steel to represent a stamped part. What about known issues, are you going to knowingly build in the same issues when making new tooling? If you don't purists won't like it. Purists also won't consider a new mp44 to be collectible. Then after spending all that money will the "I wish they still made new mp44's" crowd be there when you charge $1500 for a new rifle? Many have been there before and failed miserably. Yeah that would be like getting the design specs for an iphone and expecting to make one in your garage. The tooling, dies, etc would be more important than the specs. Kalashnikov stated in an interview that he borrowed features from both the STG44 and Garand and added a few modifications of his own. Very few truly original designs out there. Bowning, Stoner, probably the people behind Glock were true innovators. The AR was truly an innovative design. iirc the STG is smoother shooting but the AK is more reliable, easier to maintain. Actually that’s not a good analogy, the STG could be made today much easier and much cheaper then the iPhone. Building a electronic device such as a iPhone is far different then stamping, spot welding, and having parts CNC machined. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:27:14 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The AK was originally milled, not stamped. Lots of designs have lots of influences from other designs. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some MP44 influence. Quote HistoryQuoted: The AK was originally milled, not stamped. Lots of designs have lots of influences from other designs. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some MP44 influence. Quoted: The AK receiver was milled, so there's that. The AK was first a stamped receiver which was discontinued after a couple years due to issues, than it went milled, than stamped again once the bugs were worked out. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:29:48 AM EDT
[#11]
He may have copied the idea / form factor but the mechanisms are completely different.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:36:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Kalashnikov himself said the M1 Garand was the biggest influence to the AK.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:36:35 AM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:40:38 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While not an exact copy, there is no denying the STG 44 provided the template of the final form. Of course a direct copy would be near impossible using Soviet manufacturing techniques, which were quite crude compared to German ones. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:46:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Agreed, even if the operating system wasn't EXACTLY the same. That's kind of inconsequential. It's basically a product improved version. Hell even the rear sight is in the same retarded place. Hell, even we tried to do our own version of the MG42 when we designed the M60 and drew a lot of inspiration from it. https://smallarmsreview.com/the-assult-rifle-comparison-of-the-soviet-ak47-to-the-german-stg44/ "wasn't EXACTLY the same"--tilting bolt versus rotating is "kind of inconsequential" to you? They're not THAT alike, except inasmuch as they're both locked-breech designs with piston operation. That's....by that standard, the M1 and FAL differences are "kind of inconsequential", or the BAR and the M60. Or, hell, a P-51 and Me-262, because they both use the product of a combusting fuel-air mix in their engines to develop thrust. I get where y'all are coming from, but when the innards don't work the same way and the only thing they really have in common is a general external form factor...Convergent evolution is a thing, too. Similar doctrines, requirements, tactical need, etc. kind of tends to produce similar equipment. I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. except the first AKs were milled |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:46:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. Except it wasn't stamped. The first AK's were milled receiver rifles. Kalashnikov said his design was influenced by the STG44 in as much as he thought the Soviet Union could benefit from a smaller automatic rifle firing an intermediate cartridge like the STG44. He took the operating principles of the STG's design and built up a completely different rifle based of of it and simplified it to make it easier, cheaper, and faster to build so they could be issued out faster. The war ended before the design was finalized but it was issued eventually and has been the most prolific and copied rifle in the world. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:51:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Kalishnikov did not design the gun even. Yes it is an STG-44 copy. Friend of mine has an original stg he let me play with it .
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:52:07 AM EDT
[#18]
There’s so many people here typing their opinions and misconceptions, as if they are fact. Kalashnikov didn’t even design a rifle. The AK-47 was conceived as a submachine gun. The SKS was supposed to be the Soviet unions primary rifle. You will note that the SKS had a fixed bayonet, like the M44, and the original AK-47 had no provision to mount of bayonet at all. If you understand Soviet infantry doctrine for World War II, you know how important the bayonet was. You also know that they had battalions equipped with submachine guns.
The goal was to standardize one caliber for both the rifle and the submachine gun, and the AK-47 as we know it was conceived and designed as a replacement for the submachine gun. Once the Soviets realize that the AK-47 could do everything the SKS could do, but the SKS could not do everything the AK could do, they adopted the AK in favor of the short lived SKS. all of this information is available for those who care to look for it. Those of you who agree that Kalashnikov copied the STG 44 are just betraying the fact that you don’t know anything about the two designs. Their general layout is similar, but they have virtually nothing in common as far as actual design is concerned. You could just as easily say that Kalashnikov copied the PPS 43. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:55:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't mean to be bitchy here but you are claiming the AK was a STG44 derivative when you don't even know the basic history of Soviet arms design? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/header-18_jpg-3097421.JPG Interesting. What gun is that? I don't mean to be bitchy here but you are claiming the AK was a STG44 derivative when you don't even know the basic history of Soviet arms design? Welcome to GD. 
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:57:35 AM EDT
[#20]
I can’t believe that there are people here, claiming that the first AK-47s were milled. No, they were not. The first AK-47s were stamped. And those were not prototypes. They were accepted and issued for general use. They switched to the milled receiver after experiencing failures with the original stamped version, and then switched back to a stamped receiver when the AKM was adopted.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:06:45 AM EDT
[#21]
STG-44 users a falling bolt lock design, which is quite different than the AK. AK uses a machined heavy long stoke bolt carrier that IMHO is quite different than an M1 Garand, and a gas tap location that is also very different than an M1 Garand. And while the bolt is 2 lug, it is very very different then the bolt of an M1 Garand. M1 Garand has a very light BCG that cycles very fast and rely on a long spring. Where an AK has a much shorter but heavier BCG where that mass is a crucial component.
Lots of people dismiss the AK as some sort of half assed no-thought amalgum of those 2 guns STG44 and Garand. It's so very not, though there are some obvious common similarities. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:11:15 AM EDT
[#22]
Not really, no.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:13:36 AM EDT
[#23]
The Russians copied mostly the envelope and proportions. Everything else was put together new. Kalashnikov was no JMB, but he didn't just piece together a copied design.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:15:31 AM EDT
[#24]
Although the silhouette is similar between the two, an analysis in full detail piece-by-piece reveals that they have nothing in common.
A great analogy if you're familiar with them is the Walther PP and the Makarov. It's always been stated that the Makarov is just a copy of the PP. In fact, it also is a completely different design once you pay attention to the details. Russian designs are incredible and I'd suggest owning one copy of each for your collection. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:18:44 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I don’t get the problem of someone reproducing and building new versions of something like the STG44. You have all the specs,drawings and all the machinery,modern manufacturing techniques etc….. What is so hard about reproducing a weapon when all the design work has been done for you? Because when you do that, you are going to fire the same cartridge the weapon was designed to fire. Look at all the posters who want the firearm to be the same but different. I want one that fires .... I want one with a rail .... Once you do something different, it is not the same experience or weapon. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:19:08 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryLook at the trigger of the Rem Model 8 and the Browning A-5 Shotgun. Now compare them to the M-1 Garand. Guess who has a similar trigger? AK! |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:22:00 AM EDT
[#27]
Almost all firearm designs are iterations. Few are fully novel and unique.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:22:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. Did he though? He was wounded in 1941 and I haven’t found anything that says he ever returned to the front after that. The 7.62x39 cartridge was introduced in 1944 or 1945 with the SKS, I haven’t found anything to indicate it was taken from or inspired by anything made by Germans. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:27:05 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is true. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The MP5 is just a CETME knockoff  Is it really a knock-off, though, when they're both designed by the same engineers? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:29:08 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He liked the Garand bolt better than the STG44's, though He readily admitted that the bolt, op-rod and trigger group were heavily inspired by the M1 Garand. Everyone copies everyone in the gun world (because if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying). |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:29:12 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The AK receiver was milled, so there's that. The first AKs were stamped. There were issues with the manufacturing process, so they went milled. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:30:46 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except it wasn't stamped. The first AK's were milled receiver rifles. Kalashnikov said his design was influenced by the STG44 in as much as he thought the Soviet Union could benefit from a smaller automatic rifle firing an intermediate cartridge like the STG44. He took the operating principles of the STG's design and built up a completely different rifle based of of it and simplified it to make it easier, cheaper, and faster to build so they could be issued out faster. The war ended before the design was finalized but it was issued eventually and has been the most prolific and copied rifle in the world. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. Except it wasn't stamped. The first AK's were milled receiver rifles. Kalashnikov said his design was influenced by the STG44 in as much as he thought the Soviet Union could benefit from a smaller automatic rifle firing an intermediate cartridge like the STG44. He took the operating principles of the STG's design and built up a completely different rifle based of of it and simplified it to make it easier, cheaper, and faster to build so they could be issued out faster. The war ended before the design was finalized but it was issued eventually and has been the most prolific and copied rifle in the world. Oh, really? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:33:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I don’t get the problem of someone reproducing and building new versions of something like the STG44. You have all the specs,drawings and all the machinery,modern manufacturing techniques etc….. What is so hard about reproducing a weapon when all the design work has been done for you? The complete STG44 drawing package is available on the internet. The drawings suck, unsurprisingly. Making complex shit out of metal isn't easy. The AK47 is a much better rifle than the STG44, anyway. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:35:25 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: except the first AKs were milled Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Agreed, even if the operating system wasn't EXACTLY the same. That's kind of inconsequential. It's basically a product improved version. Hell even the rear sight is in the same retarded place. Hell, even we tried to do our own version of the MG42 when we designed the M60 and drew a lot of inspiration from it. https://smallarmsreview.com/the-assult-rifle-comparison-of-the-soviet-ak47-to-the-german-stg44/ "wasn't EXACTLY the same"--tilting bolt versus rotating is "kind of inconsequential" to you? They're not THAT alike, except inasmuch as they're both locked-breech designs with piston operation. That's....by that standard, the M1 and FAL differences are "kind of inconsequential", or the BAR and the M60. Or, hell, a P-51 and Me-262, because they both use the product of a combusting fuel-air mix in their engines to develop thrust. I get where y'all are coming from, but when the innards don't work the same way and the only thing they really have in common is a general external form factor...Convergent evolution is a thing, too. Similar doctrines, requirements, tactical need, etc. kind of tends to produce similar equipment. I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. except the first AKs were milled Except the first AK’s were not milled, but STAMPED. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:37:10 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because when you do that, you are going to fire the same cartridge the weapon was designed to fire. Look at all the posters who want the firearm to be the same but different. I want one that fires .... I want one with a rail .... Once you do something different, it is not the same experience or weapon. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is why I don’t get the problem of someone reproducing and building new versions of something like the STG44. You have all the specs,drawings and all the machinery,modern manufacturing techniques etc….. What is so hard about reproducing a weapon when all the design work has been done for you? Because when you do that, you are going to fire the same cartridge the weapon was designed to fire. Look at all the posters who want the firearm to be the same but different. I want one that fires .... I want one with a rail .... Once you do something different, it is not the same experience or weapon. EXACTLY, so don’t call it a STG or a clone because it’s not, at best it’s inspired by a STG, but it is not a STG. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:37:22 AM EDT
[#36]
I had a chance to take a real one apart. The bolt and carrier was a cross between an SKS and an AK, and the fire control was like an MP5. MK 100% got his ideas from it.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:39:50 AM EDT
[#37]
Do the rifles do the same thing? Sure. In that sense, did the STG 44 revolutionize modern weapons? Yes.
Does the STG44 have a single damned thing in common design wise with the AK, other than the fact it is a select fire rifle in an intermediate cartridge with a 30 round mag? No. The only possible case to be made is that it inspired the use of steel stamping. Even then, the complexity of the stamping of an STG44 is way higher than that of a Type 1 AK47 or an AKM. You could make a case of the STG44 having an impact on the design of the HK G3/MP5/etc at least due to the layout of the receivers ergonomics. Even then, the HK design isn't based on the STG44, but the completely different STG45 prototype which really is a prototype roller locked rifle.  Kalashnikov vs Sturmgewehr! |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:47:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Well, the original ak47 was forged and milled because the Russian could not do stamping worth a crap.
The akm was later. I’m sure he looked at many German and American guns before he finished the ak |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:51:10 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I don’t get the problem of someone reproducing and building new versions of something like the STG44. You have all the specs,drawings and all the machinery,modern manufacturing techniques etc….. What is so hard about reproducing a weapon when all the design work has been done for you? Keep in mind, it wasn't until like what, 2015? that all of America's combined firearm making expertise managed to finally mass-produce an AK that's worth a shit. A gun that's simpler to manufacture than an STG44 and has alot more market demand for a US made clone. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:54:35 AM EDT
[#40]
Most new designs build on previous work. I’m guessing none of the people posting in this thread have designed a firearm and put it into production.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:54:46 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:56:53 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did he though? He was wounded in 1941 and I haven’t found anything that says he ever returned to the front after that. The 7.62x39 cartridge was introduced in 1944 or 1945 with the SKS, I haven’t found anything to indicate it was taken from or inspired by anything made by Germans. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am, by far, no gun engineering expert. I do understand that there has been a lot of idea borrowing since guns were first made. My point is Kalashnikov saw STGs employed during his WW2 service. I'm of the mind he said: "His Holiness, Comrade Stalin, will love me if i build the Motherland a cheap, stamped rifle with a weight saving benefit on ammo." It's what the Kraut engineers did for old Adolph's OK. Did he though? He was wounded in 1941 and I haven’t found anything that says he ever returned to the front after that. The 7.62x39 cartridge was introduced in 1944 or 1945 with the SKS, I haven’t found anything to indicate it was taken from or inspired by anything made by Germans. When I really researched arms of WW2 and time frames it’s pretty common knowledge the Russians copied idea of a intermediate from the 7.92 Kurtz with the 7.62xx39. The Russians deny this but what don’t they deny? If you look at it objectively would it be easier to design and manufacture a all new round, requiring testing and all new equipment or take a existing round in mass production and modify it to your new specifications? Was the 7.62x39 a copy no, but it was inspired by the Germans use of what they in production and could quickly manufacture with supplies on hand, or minimal investment and time wasted. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:03:35 PM EDT
[#43]
When anyone sits down to design something "new", it is a high probability that they have contemporary and comparable designs sitting in the same room. Reasons being A: to NOT repeat mistakes of comparable designs, and B: to maximize the positive attributes of comparable designs.
There is no question that the StG-44 was dissected, as were the SVT-40, G43, FG-42, Garand/M1 Carbine, and a host of other semi and full auto firearms. Also, make no mistake the 8mm Kurz and the .30 Carbine cartridges were being highly scrutinized as well. As for a "rip off", not quite. I disagree with that statement. Did the AK take design features of the StG-44? Of course. But the AK is no more a rip off of the StG-44 than the Glock being a rip off of the Browning/P35 Hi-Power. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:10:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Did Kalashnikov really invent anything?
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:10:22 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:25:37 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Say it isnt sooo russia stronk would never copy someone else's design. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/110810/IMG_1365_jpeg-3097606.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/110810/IMG_1366_jpeg-3097607.JPG Absolutely not, the Russians would never make a copy of something and use it.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:39:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely not, the Russians would never make a copy of something and use it. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/85971/242ED56F-7B02-40D9-A43B-13EF4555A80A_jpe-3097628.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/85971/C3E0E306-6307-4B40-9106-E3117DDEB647_jpe-3097630.JPG A good story on the copied B-29s. Link |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:43:22 PM EDT
[#48]
The Garand is closer to the RSC1917.
Enjoy! |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:48:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Not sure of what point the OP is even trying to make?
That Russians copied/used some tech created by Germans? If so, want me to tell you another country that did that extensively? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:56:38 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keep in mind, it wasn't until like what, 2015? that all of America's combined firearm making expertise managed to finally mass-produce an AK that's worth a shit. A gun that's simpler to manufacture than an STG44 and has alot more market demand for a US made clone. I hate to tell you this. The AK is not that great of a gun, yes consripts bang out parts but those parts are shit, just like every other poor workaround Lastly if you think we couldnt produce a quality ak them you dont have a clue. We have the best manf capes in the world. We just couldnt make it as cheap as they being imported Kinda like the 1911a and mp5s now. We can build them, but since no one will make money on them, they dont get produced. We are not communist |
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