Have you been to an Appleseed?  I'm curious. 

If you had, you would know that most learning and zeroing is done on targets with 4 MOA squares (1” at 25).  Qualification is another target entirely. 

That's what I've seen, which is why I was wondering where these actually exist.  I shoot High Power SR (along with longer distance competitions), so I'm not interested in actually shooting at a KD Appleseed.

The biggest reason for that is 400y ranges aren't plentiful and we don't have relationships with them all. Also, the 25m events are feeders for the KD events.

Official policy is that someone must qualify at 25 before attending a KD event. Local shoot bosses (match directors) have some discretion in this attendance policy.  I strongly prefer a shooter has at least attended a 25 event as we teach no positions or fundamentals at a KD.  We're focused on trajectory, come ups, battlesite zero, range estimation, etc, etc.

Hope this helps.

No, haven't been. Read a lot about it, had a bunch of friends go, they do it at my local gun range often and I watch them sometimes, in between shooting my 6.5 Creedmoor out to 1100 yards, or running and gunning with AR15 and pistol (or as much as my out of shape ass can do it).

I only bring up the man man shaped targets to drive a point home. Appleseed is militant, its trying to promote Patriotic American riflemen, with all the the Lexington and Concord civic nationalism speeches. No reason to deny that, there is nothing wrong with doing that. I'm totally fine with all that, I think its absolutely awesome. My only issue is that if you or others are going to teach combat marksmanship to newbies, I'd rather you do it with 21st cent techniques instead of 20th cent. techniques. Besides that I'm totally down with what you do.  

With +100 attendances, you're an Appleseed cadre/instructor/AI, correct? What happens if you decide to go rogue and teach some modern US Army AMU stuff? Or you go Paul Howe or Kyle Lamb and break out the wooden barricades for realistic positional shooting. Is there a punishment for not teaching to a certain standard if someone dimes you out? Do you get de-certified or something?

So your avalanche of criticism isn't based upon your own experience or observations. Got it.

Appleseed is absolutely not militant in any way. As I explained in an earlier post, we actively avoid anything to do with modem militias.  Full stop.

My role in the program is Senior Instructor.  I teach at 25m events, KD events, and am also charged with Instructor development.  All of us are volunteers - there's not a paid employee in the program.

I guess it's possible that the good idea fairy could visit and someone drift off message or task.  As all of us are volunteers and are committed to making the program successful, gentle coaching and good leadership fixes deficiencies.  The last thing we want is a volunteer to quit.

If crawl walk run and fundamentals  are paramount, shouldn't the class be taught the fundamentals from a sandbagged/supported rest?

Militant is probably not the right word but Appleseed is definitely Martial in nature.

Appleseed uses a humanoid target and without question is trying to teach combative shooting.

Possibly a good parallel is teaching Kung Fu instead of MMA.

I put people on a sandbag or rest if they are unable to manage the rifle or have poor muzzle discipline other than simple negligence. That includes younger children and a few others like handicapped shooters.  Safety is first and always.

Negligence gets a time out.  I've never had to eject a shooter.

250 yard head shots in non-combat roles? Dats mirder

Well... maybe give at least a half day to shooting. You don't want an Arab militia where they maneuver well and then can't hit anything beyond 15 yards.

From Appleseed website:

From the website of the organization that created the Appleseed Project, the The Revolutionary War Veterans Association:

Am I reading too much into the words written by the founder and major organizers of Appleseed? Because they are clearly referencing the militia aspect of rifle usage. And militia are military units who are used to participate in battle. Combat is another word for battle. Riflemen in militias in combat apply combat marskmanship when shooting their rifles. Furthermore, I've read what Jack "Fred" Dailey had to say in Shotgun News for years regarding before what would be called Appleseed went mainstream. He wasn't playing coy back then, he was outspoken and he was pushing militia and combat marksmanship. (which is great, more needs to be done, we shouldn't be pissing ourselves for doing what the Constitution says we are supposed to do, form in militias).

If some Appleseed organizers want to play coy to attract new recruits, that's fine. Or if they don't believe in their own 503(c) goals, then that's fine too. But then they should change their own website. And I'm not out of line for mentioning this, I don't need to be censured for copying and pasting what the founder of Appleseed wrote, nor do I need to attend an event in order to comprehend what their own websites state and what Fred Daily wrote for years.

Big Whoop.

I read what ya cut and paste, Stein.

And yet none of that is a call, open or covertly, to be part of a militia.  You have already decided what you want to believe and nothing I can share with you will change that.

If you have some axe to grind with the program or it's founder, you should really contact him direct.  Heck, I'll get you his contact info.  Drop me a note.

Good job trolling the thread.  It was fun. 

Some of us in the program are trying to modernize the course as much as we can.  

The thing I tell ROTC cadets when they do an Appleseed (we have a local ROTC department I'm pretty tight with so get a lot of cadets) is that I'm teaching them how to make a really good shot without any kind of support so they know what a "perfect" shot feels like.  That should give them the skill to know when they have a good enough shot in the heat of the moment in whatever compromise of a firing position they are in whether it's kneeling behind a wall, laying in a ditch or standing beside a tree.

We still use the sling in all positions even though I doubt it has ever been used in combat in the last 50 years.  Could a shooting version of a patrol sling be helpful in combat?  Maybe.  Only if the enemy is far enough away that the shooter has time to observe and decide to engage without already being in the shit.  Pretty rare I imagine.

What I am doing is emphasizing speed of firing up to 2 or 3 aimed shots per breath (a shot every .5 - 1 second) and getting a good NPOA really fast.  

During the AQT I have them try it in a total of 9 minutes.  The normal total time is about 8 minutes.  That seems impossible until it's demo'd by someone who knows how to shoot.  At the last Appleseed I shot an entire AQT with reloads and position changes in 2:35 and scored a 217.  Not my best work but it drove the point home that you can shoot really fast accurately.

I'm still figuring out how to teach an entire firing line how to reset the trigger during recoil while not jerking the rifle off target.  Some of these things are easy to teach one on one and more difficult to get across to a line of mixed skill shooters.

What Appleseed really needs is a 3 tier program.  1.0 would be how to load a magazine, basic sighting and how to hit a fairly easy target. 2.0 would be the current program and 3.0 would be reserved for Riflemen only to push their skills further.

You don't need to cuff up or use a WWII sling to take advantage of the sling for shooting.  The USMC taught me at Parris Island (and it only takes a second)  to use the "hasty sling" technique with the current issue sling to make a stable shooting platform almost as good.  Appleseed is a good program and it teaches solid fundamentals that one should master before going with optics and current tactical doctrine.

I'm no sniper, but I can tell you for Cola Warrior West, I intentionally set up my rifle targets so people with a bipod find it impossible to use. Old school sitting with proper sling usage for the win. Fundamentals are called fundamentals for a reason.

That sounds like a really good idea.

You do realize that by the Constitution and US code, all citizens are members of the militia? Yes?  Other than an appeal to tradition and heritage, I don't see much "milita" about what was written.

Damn dude, nobody is accusing you of hosting treasonous activities. The FBI isn't going to kick down your door because "OMG, MILITIA!" There is nothing wrong with Americans preparing themselves to be competent militia riflemen. That's not trolling, that's our Constitutional Right. We know for a fact that "Well Regulated Militia" meant well trained and properly equipped, not regulated by the federal govt. Get a grip on yourself and realize that while I am criticizing Appleseed for some outdated marksmanship techniques they taught I'm not shitting on the ethos of the organization that plainly spelled out clearly what they believe in, but which you are afraid to admit outloud because Militia is a scary word.  

My ONLY ax to grind was that long before most people who didn't often read what Fred Dailey was writing in Shotgun News about militia and marksmanship testing, he picked the wrong course of fire, the wrong marksmanship techniques to emphasize. Your entire sport is based on the marksmanship expectations of one dude, Fred. You only do what you do because Fred told you that's how Appleseed is done and its his show. Fine. But my 2 cents is he should revamp that part of it.

You want to contact someone, go contact the people who designed and maintain the Appleseed Project website and tell them to remove all the scary militia references. They aren't afraid of the implications because they proudly proclaim it in their website. As does Fred Dailey, who definitely isn't afraid, but because you are afraid of association with militia they need to change it.

So after posting this and looking at my old thread about appleseed,  and remembering how much i hated seated position and could never find a stable position,  I have been practicing it each night (dryfire).

Still feels horrible. What I don't like is my legs splay outward and droop the rifle. Then I exert tension to keep them together and the tension ruins my hold.
The rifle feels like it cants downward and I have to crane my head and neck to get back on target.


Sooo anyway, I just did it again now, and I came up with a brilliant idea. Took my belt off and slung up my legs. They just rest against the belt and rem9ve all body tension.   I can just set the elbows against the legs like a bipod.

So can I use this patchouli leg sling technique at Appleseed?

Do I realize that by the Constitution and US code, all citizens are members of the militia? Yes. because in the post you replied to I wrote this: "which is great, more needs to be done, we shouldn't be pissing ourselves for doing what the Constitution says we are supposed to do, form in militias"

And I copied and pasted this from Appleseed websites:

"We are the descendants of those fearless men and women who earned our freedom on the battlefield. We honor their pursuit of liberty by passing along the skills and knowledge that aided them in securing it.

We'll help each other gain the skills and equipment needed to defend our country, if the need arises.

but the natural right of every person that must be vigilantly guarded at the cost of the sweat, tears and occasionally the blood of Patriots."

You believe none of this has anything to do with militia? You believe at Lexington and Concord random dudes showed up and weren't militia? Do you believe that Patriots shedding bled is referencing more random dudes and not militia? Do you pretend that earning freedom on the battlefield didn't mean combat?

I know you believe it, but for some strange reason, maybe you're afraid of the Left or think the ATF will shut shit down because you utter the word militia, but the founders of Appleseed flaunts it as does whomever wrote their official website. Its about Regulating Militia, turning Citizens into Riflemen. To ready them to defend their nation. That's is blatantly spelled out in the paragraphs I copied and pasted from their own websites. This isn't a hit on them either, nor are they wackos. The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting and neither is Appleseed. Its not about hobby shooting and neither is Appleseed. Nor should we make believe otherwise.

Especially right now, there hasn't been a more important time for American militia since the mid 19th century. We're about to go head over ass into a new civil war against the same leftist that Fred fucking Dailey warned us all about for decades in Shotgun News. I have no problems at all with Appleseed training a whole generation of new Americans to shoot foreign or domestic enemies. I just would like them to learn it with modern technique that are a bit more efficient than some of the old fashioned dogma that Fred Dailey pushed.

<yawn> 

The phrase willfully obtuse comes to mind.

Well the sling is a competition shooting aid.

When the rules require it's use or forbid other, more effective techniques, slinging up is just the ticket.

In the real world the shooting sling is not that useful.

Just Sayin.

Man you are just a bundle of joy...

I was happy.

I've used the hasty sling countless times in the field.

[miketyson]Everybody has a plan until the get hit in the face (with flying brass)[/miketyson]

So, are you saying the 4th of July parade is not training for the militia? No wonder the Bristol cops escorted me out of town.

 that was that was just the initiation! Why didn't you come back? We only do that to new recruits to keep guys like Stein out. 

Cool, I'll try to make it next year and shake your hand.

I'm not the New York Times or the SPLC, I'm not condemning militias nor condemning Appleseed, nor am I a lawyer, nor are you one (that I know of anyway), and arfcom isn't a court room. If you or someone else has had to spend hours online, here or on facebook or in person, defending Appleseed against Liberals, then great job fighting the good fight. But I wasn't involved in any of that. And I'm not shitting on militias, I think they're awesome and necessary and should be well regulated/trained just as the Constitution says and I think a nation wide organization to help train them is a great idea.

But if me discussing what Appleseed people have said on the matter on their own websites is controversial and and shouldn't be discussed openly because of fears of undermining the movement against Leftist legal backlash, then one of you needs to IM me that its your concern and I'll drop it out of good faith. Because that's what respectful people do. But quite a few of you are calling me out, insulting me, trying to gas light me, when its crystal clear what Dailey wrote and what is on their own damn website, that is just plain wrong and rude. That is the wrong approach to take, because I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY.

"Hey steinhab, ease back a bit. I get what you're saying and you're not wrong but the Project has taken a lot of flak for the militia shit lately by the Left and in this day and age its not good to push that aspect."

vs.

"You have no idea what you're writing. You're a troll. You can't comprehend words. blah blah blah"

If you're really trying to create a national movement some of you really need to learn tact.

This

so, this thread has been dominated by a guy who hasn't had the balls to attend an Appleseed OR to start his own nationwide introductory rifle shooting program, develop a program of instruction that teaches newbie shooters how to shoot out to 500 yards, developed a volunteer base to support it, find talented shooters to groom into instructors, etc.

That's rich.  steinhab you are truly out of your element when you shit all over Appleseed.

I haven't had the balls to attend either

I do like finding my NPOA though



First target at 177, last at 425. Ironically I hit the 425 as many times as the 177 I think.

Eta, this rifle was zeroed -1.25 at 25 yards and never confirmed past that

Gotcha, I've actually never been.

You must have missed the thread where he blew off one of the top long range shooters and coaches in the world as "just some AMU guy".

you are not shitting on Appleseed, though.

oh shit,  steinhab was the guy who blew off Sinister?    I remember that now.  Didn't he call him "some soft-skill MOS" guy?

The case I'm thinking of was blowing off something epraslick said.

I haven't taken what you've been saying as shitting on Appleseed just trying to reconcile how it's presented as compared to what the website says as compared to what you think it should be.  I've always been impressed with your posts in other discussions so here's my interpretation.

Yes way back in the day Fred designed the program using old school methods to create a competent citizenry who could defend their nation and communities if things ever turned to shit.  The program has churched that up a lot over the years to distance themselves from the Meal Team 6 militia negative image.  I read those same Shotgun News articles 20 years ago and enjoyed them.

I think Ken is focusing on the word militia you're using and translating it as Meal Team 6 as opposed to the true definition of the militia which is the citizenry as a whole that are of "military age" as defined in US Code.  Because of that negative connotation Appleseed has beat feet away from using the actual word militia in anything but a historical context.

To answer your earlier question some of us instructors discuss how we incorporate more modern techniques on the Appleseed forum.  No, we're not excommunicated for teaching our students they don't have to be bladed at 30 or 45 degrees to fire a shot or use a traditional chicken wing.  

No, we don't include barricades and other "tactical" props as teaching a student how to hit a target without any "cheats" is an important first step in becoming an effective rifle shooter.  That stuff is also one more thing to learn and in the interest of not distracting from an already lot to learn we don't add additional things.  Beyond that shooting off a barricade of some kind helps with one aspect of stabilizing the rifle but adds some wobble too plus then we'd have to have 20 or 30 sets of barricades and that's kind of hard to fit in my minivan.

Yes a person can just bipod up and go to town at 1200 yards without learning all that stuff but those guys often struggle if they have to do anything besides a planned stabilized shot with their rear bag, elbow bag and knee bag as patchouli pointed out a few pages ago.

You really should go to an Appleseed or two with an AR of your choice and see how you do.  All of the Shoot Bosses are good but like any program you will find a wide variation in methods and not all will click as well with any one person.  If you enjoy the program come along and help out.  We need more quality people to help with instruction and maybe make changes.  If you're anywhere close to Pittsburg, KS come shoot as my guest at one.

I shit on shitty marksmanship training because this is a supposedly a gun board, but I guess we're only supposed to discuss trannies and beans. In the world's largest gun board clearly the SOP is to ridicule what even the US Army's AMU teaches now. We should laugh at every lesson learned since 1907. We should shit all over all the professional trainers who taught people how to shoot since the GWOT started, none of whom try to replicate what Dailey teaches. All because the cult expects it. After all, the fundamentals of marksmanship can only be learned with a sling...

FYI, Fred Dailey's Army Qualification Test (AQT), which is the course of fire he was pimping in Shotgun News for years that he ripped off from the US Army from back in the day before he formalized his thing into a 503(c) organization, only teaches shooting out to 400 not 500 yards. I'm out of my element? I mean you jumped into the dogpile to ridicule me, I'm just saying you should know more about Appleseed than I do.

Oh yeah, feel free to IM me your email address, I'll forward you my latest DD214 and then you judge me whether I'm a coward.

No, that was just you. I called you out. Get that right.

Jesus christ and you have the balls to insult other people. Your memory fucking sucks.

Because everyone is supposed to know who epraslick is off the top of their head when you casually mention it. Not all of us spend our time as groupies to John Ringo and competition shooters.

I understand this article was written in 07 but is this how they shoot today?
AMU
Just checking.

I wouldn't call it ripped off as he and Appleseed for the first 10 years called it the Army Qualification Test and only in recent years have changed "Army" to "Appleseed" as the program has tried to distance itself from the media's vision of a militia.

The 500 yard thing comes from the fact that the 1" squares we use for practice and the Shingle (formerly the Headshot) on the Redcoat target are 4 MOA targets and thus represent the size of a person at 500 yards as well as a head at 250 yards.

You are correct that there's no 500 yard target on the AQT.