I shot "rifleman" on my first Appleseed, as anyone should be able to do - it's very easy.

I keep going to them as I find it to be fun and a very inexpensive way to spend a weekend shooting.  Whether people admit it or not, having instructors and fellow attendents observe introduces a level of focus that cannot easily be duplicated shooting off the back porch on your own spread of land.  It's $60 + a brick of ammo.  If that's too costly, I can appreciate that as an impediment but it's otherwise hard to argue against Appleseed as a great way to spend several days behind a rifle.

Only in Hi Power and CMP competitions.

U need a scope man.

https://youtu.be/FP6klVmpAns

14.5" pencil bbl

I'm using the word militia in the modern context (as is Steinhab).  The modern militia nutcases like the guys running around the woods in Michigan.  10 guys at the campfire in random camo, with at least several of them drawing paychecks as undercover agents for three-letter agencies.  We've worked damned hard to stay away from that image.

If Steinhab thinks we need a militia, he should go start one.  Rock on, man!  Because Appleseed isn't going to do if for him.  That's not what the program is about.

To paraphrase Fred:  "If rounding up your buddies, forming a militia, and grabbing your guns is on your list... you've already lost.  If you don't have the persistence to fight and win the soft war of ideas and information, you sure ain't gonna pull off the long hard war."

Fuck that.  I want a better future for my children and grandchildren.

I was one point away i think from getting a rifleman patch my first appleseed.  I've been meaning to sign up for another but keep forgetting to do so

No, you called me a "fanboi" because I knew who he was, and claimed that only "fanbois" pay attention to who the top competition shooters are, and implied that I only knew him from being a fanboi, as opposed to the reality of having shot with him a number of times, had dinner with him several times, and know his wife and kids (heck, I'm the one who told John Ringo to send a manuscript to him to review the long-range shooting scenes).  You blew him off as "some retired E-7" then made a statement that you know more retired E-7's than I do, so you win the appeals to authority, to which I pointed out that I wasn't appealing to  authority, the authority had posted in the thread himself.  I had avoided mentioning him until he posted, as I know he usually has more interesting things to do than see what kind of retarded shit idiots come up with on ARFCOM (unless he's bored, then it gets amusing).

Thank you for taking emotion out of this, because when that happens suddenly the context of what I've written is clearer. I enjoyed Fred's articles too in SN. I don't keep up with the politics of social media so evidently I was unaware that when Dailey took his thing national, and especially considering who was president when Appleseed REALLY took off (after 2008), that the bad blood was the reason for so much of the pushback I've been getting online (besides making fun of their silly Garand slings, which is pretty antiquated as the OP said).

As far as I'm concerned militia is not a bad word and it doesn't mean overthrowing the govt. All able bodied citizens are supposed to be a in a militia, so how is that bad? It means protecting your country, that's good. I'm not a libtard trying to go point at the evil nazis and say "HAHA, I caught you! You're trying to form militias!" And maybe the Appleseed cultists need to step back a bit and realize that not everyone has religiously been following the struggle like they have and don't know which lingo words are verboten from being mentioned in reference to Appleseed. Fine, let me retract them.  

LEGAL DISCLAIMER.
Appleseed is not and has never been a militia recruiting organization promoting the overthrow of the federal govt. They have nothing all all to do with Militia, any similarities are purely coincidental. Mentioning of Revolutionary War is purely for historical and entertainment purposes.

Good enough for everyone? Want me to get it notarized? Can we move on to how stupid the Garand sling is in relation to it being 2017 and different sling method existing?

No.  The program was designed to take folks who already knew the basics and turn them into competent riflemen.  It was never intended as a "bring my mom who never touched a gun and teach her how to shoot class" but we often have to do just that.

If a person needs a bag to help them hold the rifle up we'll work with them but there are better programs for that like NRA basic.

I've never shot an Appleseed match. I have shot plenty of service rifle  and Garland matches as well as various rattle battle matches.  One thing I can say about the traditional methods of rifleman shooting is that in the right hands a rifle with iron sigghts gives up very little to one with optics.

That's Service Rifle, which was designed in the early 20th century. Its a sport, not combat training. It stopped being combat training back when the respective branches (Army after WWII, Marine Corps after 2001) stopped expecting people to fight that way in combat and revamped their marksmanship programs.

I'm talking about this sort of stuff, when the AMU is directly trying to train people for not sport.



This isn't completely up to date, you can probably find more advanced stuff in the Arfcom training forum, or other websites, but its a good start on modernizing marksmanship while still practicing the fundamentals.

I read his statement as meaning the original "militia" and I think that's the difference.

I absolutely agree that the mouthbreathers can go "train" somewhere else but really don't think that's at all what he means.

I'm going for a ride and will check in later to see if this dumpster fire is still raging!  

Have you considered switching to decaf crayons for your between meal snacks? 

To actually quote Fred:

DOOFUS AMERICANUS: A variety of "citizen" that spends 100% of their time in a perpetual fog of unreality, unable to distinguish between the garbage constantly fed to them by the liberal media and the government establishment and the plain fact that Liberty and Freedom are not gifts or privileges, but the natural right of every person that must be vigilantly guarded at the cost of the sweat, tears and occasionally the blood of Patriots.

Quick, go paraphrase him again to explain what this really means.

Getting it from all sides while a mod joins in the dog pile, directed against the a person guilty only ridiculously a hundred and ten year old method of shooting support, while some people go as far as to question both my integrity and call me a coward. So yeah, I'm wound up. Who wouldn't be? Comes with getting called out constantly and others refuse to back off. I get attacked, my reaction is to respond in kind. I wrote this post which apparently you and everyone else ignored. That was the out that explained the situation, that I didn't realize you'd spent years defending the militia claims because during the Obama years militias were scary. To me, militia means able bodied patriotic citizen willing to defend his country. My mistake, I guess now that word means something completely different and I missed out because I don't shit post in Facebook against liberals like Ken914 must do constantly. This could have been stopped easily by a simple IM from ANYONE to declare that its a communication error. Because if then they could realize their kneejerk reaction against Leftist attacks and claims of framing Appleseed as extremists isn't applicable to me because I'm a Civic Nationalist American. All because I badmouthed slings, then that clearly means Appleseed isn't about Constitutionally defined militias, its just Michigan militia dipshits trying to overthrow the most glorious President Obama. Because there is just no way possible that some of the posters in this thread might be making an incorrect assumption because they're so used to being defensive about "Mah cult aint no militia!"

Are you such a shallow thinker you believe these two statements are unable to coexist? 

Do you need a picture of a bunny with a pancake on it's head?

I don't care how much you had dinner with some competition shooter or know John Ringo. Neither impresses me in the least and that you are their groupie impresses me in the least. My issues with you in the last thread was that you, not your comp buddy or John Ringo, YOU have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to combat marksmanship because you don't train, you play a sport. You're out of your element donnie.

No, I need you to admit you're wrong about me and what you claimed. Plain and simple.

"I am sorry steinhab, I was overly defensive after years spent as a senior instructor for Appleseed and constantly having to fight the left against accusations of extremism and terrorist training. I misunderstood what you wrote just shitting on marksmanship methods because I'm overly emotional and my mangina is bleeding, I read more into what you were writing because this is the internet and context is hard. And you're right, I probably should get with Fred and at least have him scrub the RWVA website because there is definitely some questionable shit written there that doesn't help us make my case, because I can't hardly claim zero modern militia context exists with his Doofus Americanus comments."  

Something like this is fine. Feel free to paraphrase.

There is an up to date Official US Army TC 3-22.9 that clearly shows the US Army Official Standing Position.

US Army TC 3-22.9  Page 98 shows how to stand when shooting standing

I particularly like the advice that comes with it, I never even read this thing and yet it repeated exactly what I wrote a couple pages back, that nobody should teach the standing without constantly mentioning its a shitty position.

But just for you, bro ... save this so you can use it in the next Appleseed thread.

Attached File

Uses "Do you even liberty, bro?" as his sig line and then cries when people mention militia existing past 1775 in a positive and patriotic context. "The Left says militia are bad, so we're not allowed to talk about them!"

Yeah, I liberty. You should give it a try to some day.

You were criticizing them about seeming to be promoting "militias." I was setting you straight. If you have no problem about them training militias, why were you bitching about it?

But it's not "shitty marksmanship trading."  Its decent fundamentals training.

There is nothing fundamental in the shooting sling and it's use.

The use of a shooting sling is a niche skill useful only in competitions that forbid proper shooting form and specifically allow shooting slings as aids.

I was taught exactly that as a Marine rifleman in 1986 as were generations of Marines before me.  Using the sling is a fundamental rifleman skill that goes back to the matchlock

Actually, I agree with him...

Why isn't "using  a rock or something" to rest on ?

Support when available was encouraged

There is a bit of a pissing match going on here but by your logic the operation of the matchlock would then be a "fundamental".

Modern shooters have no need to learn how to operate a matchlock outside of niche competitions requiring matchlocks.

The sling is not a "fundamental" because a shooter never need learn the sling nor how to use one yet still could be very successful in general field shooting.

Proper stance is "fundamental".

Proper trigger manipulation is "fundamental".

Using the shooting sling is an advanced niche technique of limited value.

Only in niche specialized competitions is the use of a sling as a shooting aid required learning to do well.

Some of us applaud the Appleseed Project while questioning the course of fire.

I would go so far as to say if the goal is to create citizen riflemen then teaching a course of fire using the sling as a shooting aid is counterproductive.

When the time comes to make a real deal shot in the field you won't have time to sling up, I have seen it.

I don't think a single person in this thread has not expressed appreciation of Appleseed on a whole, a few have just questioned the course of fire.

Were you allowed to ground the magazine on the deck?

I wasn't the one bitching about militias, Ken was when I mentioned it in the first place. Militia has no negative spin to me, its a positive word that is synonymous with patriotic, duty, and honor to America.

What got this bullshit rolling was when everyone attempted to plea down Appleseed as only a sporting marksmanship training class with a bit of American history/civics with it, as if that was why it was okay to use old techniques as fundamentals. If that your argument its bullshit. I wrote how many times now that the AQT that Dailey copy and pasted came from a mid century CMP course of fire based on US Army marksmanship techniques that date back to back when the Garand was the standard issue service rifle and the Army was still issuing Garand Slings and was expecting shooters to sling up for hits. I've stated repeatedly that the techniques were never popularized as a method of teaching fundamentals when they were still actual military qual, that was just how you were supposed to shoot, how the military brass literally expected their riflemen to fire their rifles in combat. It was only when the techniques were rendered combat obsolete, when the services revamped training and replaced it newer techniques more applicable to real combat, that the "Mah fundamentals" got suggestion started. I know, because I used to be one of them that repeated that, I used to shoot CMP competitively back in the day, Service Rifle and Pistol. And I was wrong then too. I stated this fact, that Appleseed is militant in focus and then mentioned militia in this context (first three mentions of the word militia in the entire thread):

Does any of this at all sound like something CNN would say? Am I a liberal who hates freedom? If you can't come to turns with what I wrote the evidence is right there. Man up because I'm owed a giant apology because that's the context I wrote militia that got Ken to fly off the handle like a maniac. It all originated because of those three quotes.

Militia is not a negative word to me, I don't associate it with extremists unless all good citizens believing in civic duty are extremists. But I don't freak out thinking the HRT is going to fast rope into my living room for acknowledging that all able bodied Americans are part of a civil defense pact called a militia. Ken read into all that shit I wrote because he is evidently professional associated with Appleseed Project, a 503(c) charity who in no way, shape, or form legally associated with any militia, real or imagined, or any other form of right wing extremism.

But it does have to do with military themed shooting because the Appleseed qual is just Dailey's Army Qualification Test with a new name. Same thing, new name change, new image, old idea. Create a large foundation of American citizens that are patriotic, who understand civics, and who are qualified in a military themed shooting competition (though that qual is old and obsolete IMO).

From that point onwards first an overly defensive Ken tried to read me the riot act, Raf followed up next, then you got on board, and then numerous others since then. But it was never about the militia or me shitting on them. And trust me, I care so little for your stupid club I had no idea the controversy surrounding it being associated with all those extremist right wing militia types who believe in the Supreme Court definition of the 2nd Amendment and Militia Clause. Or is it unpatriot now to mention that too? Because evidently we're not allowed to say militia anymore, guess I didn't get that memo.

Everything I wrote can be summed up in this: The current course of fire and technique taught for the AQT/Appleseed Qual should be relocated to the land of the Plunkett Position, because while it can be used to teach fundamentals (which can be taught with any rifle in any position), there are better and more modern and applicable techniques to do so, especially considering limited time. Controversial, huh? Evidently its dangerous to go onto the biggest gun forum in America and recommend updating a marksmanship program past 1910. Should have stuck with trannies and beans, because then I wont be slaying sacred cows like "mah loop sling is fundamentals!"

Knowing the distances would help to, or having an actual zero might help too. Or a sling

Steady position, aiming, breathing, trigger control. These are the fundamentals. Are you suggesting prone cocked leg, crossed ankle sitting, and standing chicken wing, with hasty or loop sling for all, are the best way to learn the fundamentals? It may be how some learned it, maybe how you learned it, but in 2017 I think the members of the largest gun forum in the country can acknowledge that there might be better and more advanced methods available that wont require retraining in support aids, positions, and other very applicable CMP style techniques that all date back to a century ago.

No, because the Marine Corps taught us it would cause a catastrophic jam. It was up there with walking on the grass, or having your hands in your pockets. YOU JUST DIDN'T DO IT.

What part of any of this was justification for your initial call out to me? What part should I be embarrassed for?

Shit, I'm quite fond of what I wrote. The ghost of Thomas Jefferson would have patted me on the head and said "Nice job!" But evidently my comments are verboten on arfcom, because the Left doesn't like the word militia and we're not supposed to use it anymore, because liberty means being terrified of the left.

I guess those that are more operator than I can crap on the Appleseed program, but speaking as someone who is rapidly approaching the half century mark and didn't own a centerfire rifle until 2012, I've found the courses to be a great value for fundamentals. No, not tactical shooting, and the instructors made that point very clear.

I was also very proud to see my youngest earn his Rifleman patch a couple of weeks ago at his second Appleseed. His hat just arrived today.

Congrats to your son, well done.

Nobody crapped on Appleseed, nobody.

Some of us, in the context of a discussion, feel that the course of fire could be modernized in some respects.

I tend to agree with everything steinhab has posted. It seems perfectly rational to me.


..And this guy too.

That you call the offhand position, one that I first learned in the Marines, as a "standing chicken wing" shows that you don't understand marksmanship fundamentals.

Guess the modern army don't understanding either.
Or maybe they realize that while you may be more accurate like that, It is impractical for most real world situations.
Therefore  they teach a more universally useful position.
Which maybe a bunch of appleseed newb1s would benefit from too.

Does Appleseed still Ban the MP15-22?  Want to go but don't have a 10-22 nor want to shoot a AR.
Seems stupid to me.

And it would have been better received if you had tried to be a little more polite instead of calling it shitty marksmanship.

I get what you were doing and agree that some parts of the course of instruction could be modernized.  That'll happen with time.

No it's not perfect but it's the best thing out there so we get down in the dirt and slog away while looking for how to do it better.

I was serious when I invited you to do one.  With a background in competition and the Marines you'll probably do well.  Get inside the program and help improve it instead of just saying it needs changed.

Wonder how many Marines died needlessly over the years because they failed to get a stable enough platform to make the hit on a bad guy before the opposite happened? All because of strict mindless adherence to "that's how it's always been done!" marksmanship training.

Appleseed encourages marksmanship, and for that deserves accolades. However, in my limited observations, it was heavily biased towards creating a false valuation and false confidence amongst shooters using rimfire rifles at what are effectively handgun distances. The very core of the scoring system is based on a favoritism towards a caliber (.22LR) that is fundamentally incapable of being used in s true marksmanship context.

When teaching boots what does the Army teach? The Marines?

I posted this earlier.

The Army has a pretty damn good TC on shooting the Carbine and Rifle that @sinister first posted.

US Army How to use and shoot the Rifle and Carbine

Page 98 hits standing.

6-30. When a shooter assumes a stable firing position, movement from muscle tension,
breathing, and other natural activities within the body will be transferred to the weapon
and must be compensated for by the shooter.
6-31. Failing to create an effective platform to fire from is termed a stabilization
failure. A stabilization failure occurs when a Soldier fails to:
Control the movement of the barrel during the arc of movement
Adequately support the weapon system
Achieve their natural point of aim.

Sure wish there was a way to increase stability   when standing when I don't have access to door jambs, trees, etc.

Or legs



Oh the nos a tight sling