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Posted: 7/23/2023 3:55:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your comment only makes sense if we dont Quote HistoryQuoted: Your comment only makes sense if we dont FIFY - Elk are so cute, like a caribou on steroids. Quoted: your SME is a total useless dipshit @AKCaribouhunter? That's pretty harsh |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 3:56:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Given the option; as if money was no object - I would only ever shoot black hills MK262 for the rest of my life.
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Posted: 7/23/2023 3:59:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SR25 ONLY RUGER SFAR > SR25. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:01:18 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RUGER SFAR > SR25. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: SR25 ONLY RUGER SFAR > SR25. Vulcan Arms AR308 > all of them. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:01:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FIFY - Elk are so cute, like a caribou on steroids. @AKCaribouhunter? That's pretty harsh I mean, I've watched the lady hunt on "life below zero"... not setting a very high bar. Blind fires into a herd of caribou and still misses "I'm a subsistence hunter!"  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:05:41 PM EDT
[#6]
GD:
77Gr 5.56 is the optimal round for African Elephant. If you aren't Eddie Murphy's African Jungle Bitch, you aren't my SME and all facts and opinions to the contrary are meaningless. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:06:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 100 yards. Destroyed the pleural cavity. https://i.postimg.cc/T1JXPDw6/IMG-1578.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1t0d0ZZ0/IMG-1575.jpg ETA: meant to edit, not quote. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Nice. I've shot half a dozen deer with 75gr TAP (out of a 16" AR) and the results have always been devastating. My longest shot is only about 100 yards, though. 100 yards. Destroyed the pleural cavity. https://i.postimg.cc/T1JXPDw6/IMG-1578.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1t0d0ZZ0/IMG-1575.jpg ETA: meant to edit, not quote. Is the deer okay |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:09:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My preferred loading is the 69grn SMK. Accurate. Way better in the wind than lighter options. I loaded 77grn SMks for a while and just seem to like the 69s better. Have to test for yourself My 20" loves the 69 grain ADI. 77 grain razorcore opens up the groups |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:36:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Blind fires into a herd of caribou and still misses Quote HistoryQuoted: Blind fires into a herd of caribou and still misses  Attached FileQuoted: GD: 77Gr 5.56 is the optimal round for African Elephant. If you aren't Eddie Murphy's African Jungle Bitch, you aren't my SME and all facts and opinions to the contrary are meaningless. If 18B30 told me 10.3 is better than 11.5 I'd listen rather than argue with other LARP'ers why my unqualified choice is ethical |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:39:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given the option; as if money was no object - I would only ever shoot black hills MK262 for the rest of my life. This  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:46:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the deer okay Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Nice. I've shot half a dozen deer with 75gr TAP (out of a 16" AR) and the results have always been devastating. My longest shot is only about 100 yards, though. 100 yards. Destroyed the pleural cavity. https://i.postimg.cc/T1JXPDw6/IMG-1578.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1t0d0ZZ0/IMG-1575.jpg ETA: meant to edit, not quote. Is the deer okay 
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:01:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get out your MSPaintbrush and circle the spot where a .300 Win Mag kills an elk immediately but a .223 (77 TMK) wounds it. https://cdn.britannica.com/03/94603-050-D74D3709/elk-American-Yellowstone-National-Park-Wyoming.jpg I know there are spots on the elk where either bullet will kill immediately, and other spots where either bullet only wounds it. What is the middle ground where one works and the other doesn't? The light, thin jacketed 77gr hits the front shoulder bone. Instead of punching through with a bonded or copper solid 180gr 300 WM bullet and taking out both lungs, the 77gr bullet deflects forward into the brisket and or disintegrates, only causes damage to one lung. The critter dies a slow painful dealth, and due to the likely lack of exit wound and tiny entrance wound, tracking is difficult if not downright impossible. I know a 77gr OTM bullet will penetrate far enough against humans to be very effective for self defense. Certainty they can penetrate plenty on an elk to kill it as dead as a 375 H&H. But it doesn’t guarantee adequate straight line penetration if large bone mass is hit. Just because a handful of people on the internet post a bunch of pictures and say small caliber OTM bullets can kill large game, doesn’t make it a good idea. I’d be willing to bet a paycheck that there were a more than a few “misses” that were really wounded elk that some of those posters will never admit to in the thread linked above. Maybe they really believed they missed. Of course they won’t admit to any of that on the internet… Want to get dog piled on the internet? Admit you shot something and couldn’t recover it. Either way on the animals that died the 223 “worked.” Confirmation bias achieved. Suddenly “everybody was wrong for the last 100 years, 223 is a great elk cartridge.” Rokslide is full of people who are downright willfully ignorant about terminal ballistics and firearms in general. As someone else said, if I had 6 weeks to hunt elk every year and a $20 general tag in my pocket every year I might fuck around with small calibers on elk and really, really pick my shots. As for now, given I get about 5 days and spend about $1500 a year on tags and points, something with a bit more margin for error is probably prudent, and that’s probably true for most people. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:24:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe not, but it's usually a prerequisite. So are you going with Shooter B then? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Or I'm speaking from a combination of personal experience and what the general consensus is when it comes to hunting... I've watched game take multiple rounds to the vitals with modern rounds and keep going... I've also had game drop immediately... why the hell would I take the risk of dropping the size/energy of the round with nothing to gain from it? Wrong. What you gain from it is that you can shoot thousands of rounds more practicing without ruining your wallet and your shoulder. You need to put a bullet into a 12" target 400 yards away: Which shooter do you choose for this task? Shooter A has fired 1000 rounds in the last two months, including 200 rounds at targets 400 and 500 yards away Shooter B has fired 70 rounds in the last two months, 20 of which were at 200 yards, but he has a good ballistics calculator. Which shooter do you think is better at wind? Which do you think will flinch? Shooting lots of rounds doesn't necessarily mean they're a good shot. Maybe not, but it's usually a prerequisite. So are you going with Shooter B then? Neither. It's a stupid premise |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:33:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.ibb.co/q0fTmD5/Screenshot-2023-07-23-at-15-01-01-Is-the-5-56-with-77gr-projectiles-in-a-whole-different-class-Page.png It's like watching virgins arguing over which cheerleader they'll never fuck gives the best head. Instead of asking the only SME in the thread about his experience LARP'ers and Fudd's fight for the morel high ground in the retard Olympics. https://media.tenor.com/cxPBPdBgDnQAAAAd/its-alll-so-tiresome-tired.gif Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.ibb.co/q0fTmD5/Screenshot-2023-07-23-at-15-01-01-Is-the-5-56-with-77gr-projectiles-in-a-whole-different-class-Page.png Quoted: Someone said it on the internet, it must be true Quoted: No is saying it can't be done. It's just dumb and unnecessary. It's like watching virgins arguing over which cheerleader they'll never fuck gives the best head. Instead of asking the only SME in the thread about his experience LARP'ers and Fudd's fight for the morel high ground in the retard Olympics. https://media.tenor.com/cxPBPdBgDnQAAAAd/its-alll-so-tiresome-tired.gif I had a 200lbs bear under my bedroom window 2 weeks ago. I would have had zero problem shooting it with a 556. I would not take it bear hunting.  Attached FileThis year would have been an easy shot with a 556. Slow walk from right to left broadside at 115 yards. I don't always get easy shots. After the novelty of shooting deer with a 556 wore off I stopped hunting with it. I'll no doubt shoot more deer with 556 if the opportunity arises while out camping or coyote hunting but it's a poor choice for regular hunting. At least the types of hunting I do. If I sat in stands and picked perfect shots and didn't have bear season coincide with deer season then I'd be ok with it. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:35:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm just saying that if you have a huge number of successfully killed animals, complete with pictures of the wounds that killed the animals but your energy values are all over the place from 400 to 4,000 ft-lbs, you should reevaluate if energy has anything to do with killing or are there a lot of other factors to it. IMO, energy is not a qualifier or disqualifier, it's just irrelevant. 22lr for everything!!! |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:48:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a 200lbs bear under my bedroom window 2 weeks ago. I would have had zero problem shooting it with a 556. I would not take it bear hunting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/IMG_20221029_170227_jpg-2895908.JPG This year would have been an easy shot with a 556. Slow walk from right to left broadside at 115 yards. I don't always get easy shots. After the novelty of shooting deer with a 556 wore off I stopped hunting with it. I'll no doubt shoot more deer with 556 if the opportunity arises while out camping or coyote hunting but it's a poor choice for regular hunting. At least the types of hunting I do. If I sat in stands and picked perfect shots and didn't have bear season coincide with deer season then I'd be ok with it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://i.ibb.co/q0fTmD5/Screenshot-2023-07-23-at-15-01-01-Is-the-5-56-with-77gr-projectiles-in-a-whole-different-class-Page.png Quoted: Someone said it on the internet, it must be true Quoted: No is saying it can't be done. It's just dumb and unnecessary. It's like watching virgins arguing over which cheerleader they'll never fuck gives the best head. Instead of asking the only SME in the thread about his experience LARP'ers and Fudd's fight for the morel high ground in the retard Olympics. https://media.tenor.com/cxPBPdBgDnQAAAAd/its-alll-so-tiresome-tired.gif I had a 200lbs bear under my bedroom window 2 weeks ago. I would have had zero problem shooting it with a 556. I would not take it bear hunting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/IMG_20221029_170227_jpg-2895908.JPG This year would have been an easy shot with a 556. Slow walk from right to left broadside at 115 yards. I don't always get easy shots. After the novelty of shooting deer with a 556 wore off I stopped hunting with it. I'll no doubt shoot more deer with 556 if the opportunity arises while out camping or coyote hunting but it's a poor choice for regular hunting. At least the types of hunting I do. If I sat in stands and picked perfect shots and didn't have bear season coincide with deer season then I'd be ok with it. I bought a lever in 357mag just because I found the Ballistics to be amazing. There's better hunting rifles, but it's neat as fuck what that cartridge can do and I like neat things |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:52:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 77g TMKs will fuck everything up. From paper targets at 600 yards to elk/moose. All you need in my opinion. Fling 77g SMKs for practice or even the upper range ELDMs. Interesting you say that about 77gr 556 I’ve heard some people say that 6.5CM isn’t enough for elk which is bizarre to me |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:55:03 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 22lr for everything!!! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm just saying that if you have a huge number of successfully killed animals, complete with pictures of the wounds that killed the animals but your energy values are all over the place from 400 to 4,000 ft-lbs, you should reevaluate if energy has anything to do with killing or are there a lot of other factors to it. IMO, energy is not a qualifier or disqualifier, it's just irrelevant. 22lr for everything!!! Is energy the only difference between a 40 grain solid round nose lead bullet at 800fps and a 77gr tmk at 1800 fps, or is there a lot more to it? |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:56:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought a lever in 357mag just because I found the Ballistics to be amazing. There's better hunting rifles, but it's neat as fuck what that cartridge can do and I like neat things Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://i.ibb.co/q0fTmD5/Screenshot-2023-07-23-at-15-01-01-Is-the-5-56-with-77gr-projectiles-in-a-whole-different-class-Page.png Quoted: Someone said it on the internet, it must be true Quoted: No is saying it can't be done. It's just dumb and unnecessary. It's like watching virgins arguing over which cheerleader they'll never fuck gives the best head. Instead of asking the only SME in the thread about his experience LARP'ers and Fudd's fight for the morel high ground in the retard Olympics. https://media.tenor.com/cxPBPdBgDnQAAAAd/its-alll-so-tiresome-tired.gif I had a 200lbs bear under my bedroom window 2 weeks ago. I would have had zero problem shooting it with a 556. I would not take it bear hunting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/IMG_20221029_170227_jpg-2895908.JPG This year would have been an easy shot with a 556. Slow walk from right to left broadside at 115 yards. I don't always get easy shots. After the novelty of shooting deer with a 556 wore off I stopped hunting with it. I'll no doubt shoot more deer with 556 if the opportunity arises while out camping or coyote hunting but it's a poor choice for regular hunting. At least the types of hunting I do. If I sat in stands and picked perfect shots and didn't have bear season coincide with deer season then I'd be ok with it. I bought a lever in 357mag just because I found the Ballistics to be amazing. There's better hunting rifles, but it's neat as fuck what that cartridge can do and I like neat things I'd rather still hunt through swamps with my M92 over any 556  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 6:58:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd rather still hunt through swamps with my M92 over any 556 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/20201209_132833_HDR_jpg-2895932.JPG I like you because you are the youngest boomer to ever live, and I mean that as the highest compliment being a 30yo boomer myself. 
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:01:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is energy the only difference between a 40 grain solid round nose lead bullet at 800fps and a 77gr tmk at 1800 fps, or is there a lot more to it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm just saying that if you have a huge number of successfully killed animals, complete with pictures of the wounds that killed the animals but your energy values are all over the place from 400 to 4,000 ft-lbs, you should reevaluate if energy has anything to do with killing or are there a lot of other factors to it. IMO, energy is not a qualifier or disqualifier, it's just irrelevant. 22lr for everything!!! Is energy the only difference between a 40 grain solid round nose lead bullet at 800fps and a 77gr tmk at 1800 fps, or is there a lot more to it? Hmmm, you don't say... |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:02:09 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like you because you are the youngest boomer to ever live, and I mean that as the highest compliment being a 30yo boomer myself. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd rather still hunt through swamps with my M92 over any 556 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/20201209_132833_HDR_jpg-2895932.JPG I like you because you are the youngest boomer to ever live, and I mean that as the highest compliment being a 30yo boomer myself.
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:07:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve seen elk drop from a 243 like a rug was pulled out from underneath them. And elk hit with Uber magnums run for miles. Caliber isn’t the end all be all. an animal pumped full of adrenaline flowing can do amazing things until its body literally runs out of oxygen or blood required to function even light deer that has a reputation for being easy to kill an animal at peace and complete rest tends to get anchored by a double lung or heart shot much better regardless of caliber than an animal that is already scared and on alert when it is shot even with a heavy fast bonded bullet |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:09:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a 200lbs bear under my bedroom window 2 weeks ago. I would have had zero problem shooting it with a 556. I would not take it bear hunting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/IMG_20221029_170227_jpg-2895908.JPG This year would have been an easy shot with a 556. Slow walk from right to left broadside at 115 yards. I don't always get easy shots. After the novelty of shooting deer with a 556 wore off I stopped hunting with it. I'll no doubt shoot more deer with 556 if the opportunity arises while out camping or coyote hunting but it's a poor choice for regular hunting. At least the types of hunting I do. If I sat in stands and picked perfect shots and didn't have bear season coincide with deer season then I'd be ok with it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://i.ibb.co/q0fTmD5/Screenshot-2023-07-23-at-15-01-01-Is-the-5-56-with-77gr-projectiles-in-a-whole-different-class-Page.png Quoted: Someone said it on the internet, it must be true Quoted: No is saying it can't be done. It's just dumb and unnecessary. It's like watching virgins arguing over which cheerleader they'll never fuck gives the best head. Instead of asking the only SME in the thread about his experience LARP'ers and Fudd's fight for the morel high ground in the retard Olympics. https://media.tenor.com/cxPBPdBgDnQAAAAd/its-alll-so-tiresome-tired.gif I had a 200lbs bear under my bedroom window 2 weeks ago. I would have had zero problem shooting it with a 556. I would not take it bear hunting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/IMG_20221029_170227_jpg-2895908.JPG This year would have been an easy shot with a 556. Slow walk from right to left broadside at 115 yards. I don't always get easy shots. After the novelty of shooting deer with a 556 wore off I stopped hunting with it. I'll no doubt shoot more deer with 556 if the opportunity arises while out camping or coyote hunting but it's a poor choice for regular hunting. At least the types of hunting I do. If I sat in stands and picked perfect shots and didn't have bear season coincide with deer season then I'd be ok with it. I think the choice aspect of taking game is where the disconnect is in the thread. I'm in no way advocating for 5.56 but can't help but call bullshit on those clinging to ethics who've never gone into calorie deficit because of a failed hunt. I took this from my bedroom a few years back when my primary yard gun was an 8" 300BLK before switching to the handier GHM45. According to the Fudds they could have made an episode of I Shouldn't Be Alive based on my caliber choices (18' Old Town freighter for scale)  From my kitchen window: Couple of calves watching mama's back while she sleeps out of the wind.  I always had them around because my dog gives fuck-all about everything.  |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:12:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd rather still hunt through swamps with my M92 over any 556 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/20201209_132833_HDR_jpg-2895932.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://i.ibb.co/q0fTmD5/Screenshot-2023-07-23-at-15-01-01-Is-the-5-56-with-77gr-projectiles-in-a-whole-different-class-Page.png Quoted: Someone said it on the internet, it must be true Quoted: No is saying it can't be done. It's just dumb and unnecessary. It's like watching virgins arguing over which cheerleader they'll never fuck gives the best head. Instead of asking the only SME in the thread about his experience LARP'ers and Fudd's fight for the morel high ground in the retard Olympics. https://media.tenor.com/cxPBPdBgDnQAAAAd/its-alll-so-tiresome-tired.gif I had a 200lbs bear under my bedroom window 2 weeks ago. I would have had zero problem shooting it with a 556. I would not take it bear hunting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/IMG_20221029_170227_jpg-2895908.JPG This year would have been an easy shot with a 556. Slow walk from right to left broadside at 115 yards. I don't always get easy shots. After the novelty of shooting deer with a 556 wore off I stopped hunting with it. I'll no doubt shoot more deer with 556 if the opportunity arises while out camping or coyote hunting but it's a poor choice for regular hunting. At least the types of hunting I do. If I sat in stands and picked perfect shots and didn't have bear season coincide with deer season then I'd be ok with it. I bought a lever in 357mag just because I found the Ballistics to be amazing. There's better hunting rifles, but it's neat as fuck what that cartridge can do and I like neat things I'd rather still hunt through swamps with my M92 over any 556 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/20201209_132833_HDR_jpg-2895932.JPG Fuck that, I want my MWS if I can't see more that 50m |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:16:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the choice aspect of taking game is where the disconnect is in the thread. I'm in no way advocating for 5.56 but can't help but call bullshit on those clinging to ethics who've never gone into calorie deficit because of a failed hunt. I took this from my bedroom a few years back when my primary yard gun was an 8" 300BLK before switching to the handier GHM45. According to the Fudds they could have made an episode of I Shouldn't Be Alive based on my caliber choices (18' Old Town freighter for scale) https://i.ibb.co/58n3xvm/20180819-182113.jpg From my kitchen window: Couple of calves watching mama's back while she sleeps out of the wind. https://i.ibb.co/JpNRV0k/20181106-110341.jpg I always had them around because my dog gives fuck-all about everything. https://i.ibb.co/Pz3D3tg/59501675-10157728201393455-7625518428920479744-n.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://i.ibb.co/q0fTmD5/Screenshot-2023-07-23-at-15-01-01-Is-the-5-56-with-77gr-projectiles-in-a-whole-different-class-Page.png Quoted: Someone said it on the internet, it must be true Quoted: No is saying it can't be done. It's just dumb and unnecessary. It's like watching virgins arguing over which cheerleader they'll never fuck gives the best head. Instead of asking the only SME in the thread about his experience LARP'ers and Fudd's fight for the morel high ground in the retard Olympics. https://media.tenor.com/cxPBPdBgDnQAAAAd/its-alll-so-tiresome-tired.gif I had a 200lbs bear under my bedroom window 2 weeks ago. I would have had zero problem shooting it with a 556. I would not take it bear hunting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/IMG_20221029_170227_jpg-2895908.JPG This year would have been an easy shot with a 556. Slow walk from right to left broadside at 115 yards. I don't always get easy shots. After the novelty of shooting deer with a 556 wore off I stopped hunting with it. I'll no doubt shoot more deer with 556 if the opportunity arises while out camping or coyote hunting but it's a poor choice for regular hunting. At least the types of hunting I do. If I sat in stands and picked perfect shots and didn't have bear season coincide with deer season then I'd be ok with it. I think the choice aspect of taking game is where the disconnect is in the thread. I'm in no way advocating for 5.56 but can't help but call bullshit on those clinging to ethics who've never gone into calorie deficit because of a failed hunt. I took this from my bedroom a few years back when my primary yard gun was an 8" 300BLK before switching to the handier GHM45. According to the Fudds they could have made an episode of I Shouldn't Be Alive based on my caliber choices (18' Old Town freighter for scale) https://i.ibb.co/58n3xvm/20180819-182113.jpg From my kitchen window: Couple of calves watching mama's back while she sleeps out of the wind. https://i.ibb.co/JpNRV0k/20181106-110341.jpg I always had them around because my dog gives fuck-all about everything. https://i.ibb.co/Pz3D3tg/59501675-10157728201393455-7625518428920479744-n.jpg Gorgeous house brother. I've only seen moose maybe like 3 or 4 times, but they're an impressive animal. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:16:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to do that, but now I just shoot the same load the whole match. Just know your drops and you’ll be fine. Not so much the drops as it is the wind. A high velocity, high BC load makes a lot of difference in terms of mental bandwidth on a long range stage. The less I’m thinking about holds and wind the more I can think about transitions and movement. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:27:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The light, thin jacketed 77gr hits the front shoulder bone. Instead of punching through with a bonded or copper solid 180gr 300 WM bullet and taking out both lungs, the 77gr bullet deflects forward into the brisket and or disintegrates, only causes damage to one lung. The critter dies a slow painful dealth, and due to the likely lack of exit wound and tiny entrance wound, tracking is difficult if not downright impossible. I know a 77gr OTM bullet will penetrate far enough against humans to be very effective for self defense. Certainty they can penetrate plenty on an elk to kill it as dead as a 375 H&H. But it doesn’t guarantee adequate straight line penetration if large bone mass is hit. Just because a handful of people on the internet post a bunch of pictures and say small caliber OTM bullets can kill large game, doesn’t make it a good idea. I’d be willing to bet a paycheck that there were a more than a few “misses” that were really wounded elk that some of those posters will never admit to in the thread linked above. Maybe they really believed they missed. Of course they won’t admit to any of that on the internet… Want to get dog piled on the internet? Admit you shot something and couldn’t recover it. Either way on the animals that died the 223 “worked.” Confirmation bias achieved. Suddenly “everybody was wrong for the last 100 years, 223 is a great elk cartridge.” Rokslide is full of people who are downright willfully ignorant about terminal ballistics and firearms in general. As someone else said, if I had 6 weeks to hunt elk every year and a $20 general tag in my pocket every year I might fuck around with small calibers on elk and really, really pick my shots. As for now, given I get about 5 days and spend about $1500 a year on tags and points, something with a bit more margin for error is probably prudent, and that’s probably true for most people. Not open tip, polymer tip. Apparently there's a huge difference which is how the subject came to be. No TMKs for 100 years equals "Don't use .223 on elk" and makes it look like energy is the big deal as people try to find a mathematical answer for why things are. Then TMKs come along, kill elk easily without energy and leave everyone saying  And positive confirmation bias is all you get for any caliber, and nobody wants to admit they lost one with anything either. We weren't supposed to get success stories with 223 though, and we are so wtf? Maybe they were wrong the whole time. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:29:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not so much the drops as it is the wind. A high velocity, high BC load makes a lot of difference in terms of mental bandwidth on a long range stage. The less I’m thinking about holds and wind the more I can think about transitions and movement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I used to do that, but now I just shoot the same load the whole match. Just know your drops and you’ll be fine. Not so much the drops as it is the wind. A high velocity, high BC load makes a lot of difference in terms of mental bandwidth on a long range stage. The less I’m thinking about holds and wind the more I can think about transitions and movement. What are those turbo crazy bullets with really really high BC called? I'm blanking |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:31:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not open tip, polymer tip. Apparently there's a huge difference which is how the subject came to be. No TMKs for 100 years equals "Don't use .223 on elk" and makes it look like energy is the big deal as people try to find a mathematical answer for why things are. Then TMKs come along, kill elk easily without energy and leave everyone saying https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/59227/shooterwtf-2297756.jpg And positive confirmation bias is all you get for any caliber, and nobody wants to admit they lost one with anything either. We weren't supposed to get success stories with 223 though, and we are so wtf? Maybe they were wrong the whole time. Ballistic tips or polymer tipped match bullets and sometimes now aluminum tips are almost all I shoot but they do have their limitations If they hit heavy bone, they tend to not retain much weight and not have great penetration They do seem to have exceptional game performance other than that though in my experience |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:33:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What are those turbo crazy bullets with really really high BC called? I'm blanking 105 sabots |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:34:28 PM EDT
[#32]
I started shooting 77s when I shot high power. From that, I built a lot of experience with the trajectory and effects of wind. It’s my favorite 223 round.
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:40:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What are those turbo crazy bullets with really really high BC called? I'm blanking Nosler RDF. In my experience you’ll either have good luck with the 70’s or the barrel won’t like them. I was lucky and found the sweet spot almost immediately. That being said, I only have a couple of barrels that shoot them really well. The 77’s seem to be far more forgiving. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:41:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The light, thin jacketed 77gr hits the front shoulder bone. Instead of punching through with a bonded or copper solid 180gr 300 WM bullet and taking out both lungs, the 77gr bullet deflects forward into the brisket and or disintegrates, only causes damage to one lung. The critter dies a slow painful dealth, and due to the likely lack of exit wound and tiny entrance wound, tracking is difficult if not downright impossible. I know a 77gr OTM bullet will penetrate far enough against humans to be very effective for self defense. Certainty they can penetrate plenty on an elk to kill it as dead as a 375 H&H. But it doesn’t guarantee adequate straight line penetration if large bone mass is hit. Just because a handful of people on the internet post a bunch of pictures and say small caliber OTM bullets can kill large game, doesn’t make it a good idea. I’d be willing to bet a paycheck that there were a more than a few “misses” that were really wounded elk that some of those posters will never admit to in the thread linked above. Maybe they really believed they missed. Of course they won’t admit to any of that on the internet… Want to get dog piled on the internet? Admit you shot something and couldn’t recover it. Either way on the animals that died the 223 “worked.” Confirmation bias achieved. Suddenly “everybody was wrong for the last 100 years, 223 is a great elk cartridge.” Rokslide is full of people who are downright willfully ignorant about terminal ballistics and firearms in general. As someone else said, if I had 6 weeks to hunt elk every year and a $20 general tag in my pocket every year I might fuck around with small calibers on elk and really, really pick my shots. As for now, given I get about 5 days and spend about $1500 a year on tags and points, something with a bit more margin for error is probably prudent, and that’s probably true for most people. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Get out your MSPaintbrush and circle the spot where a .300 Win Mag kills an elk immediately but a .223 (77 TMK) wounds it. https://cdn.britannica.com/03/94603-050-D74D3709/elk-American-Yellowstone-National-Park-Wyoming.jpg I know there are spots on the elk where either bullet will kill immediately, and other spots where either bullet only wounds it. What is the middle ground where one works and the other doesn't? The light, thin jacketed 77gr hits the front shoulder bone. Instead of punching through with a bonded or copper solid 180gr 300 WM bullet and taking out both lungs, the 77gr bullet deflects forward into the brisket and or disintegrates, only causes damage to one lung. The critter dies a slow painful dealth, and due to the likely lack of exit wound and tiny entrance wound, tracking is difficult if not downright impossible. I know a 77gr OTM bullet will penetrate far enough against humans to be very effective for self defense. Certainty they can penetrate plenty on an elk to kill it as dead as a 375 H&H. But it doesn’t guarantee adequate straight line penetration if large bone mass is hit. Just because a handful of people on the internet post a bunch of pictures and say small caliber OTM bullets can kill large game, doesn’t make it a good idea. I’d be willing to bet a paycheck that there were a more than a few “misses” that were really wounded elk that some of those posters will never admit to in the thread linked above. Maybe they really believed they missed. Of course they won’t admit to any of that on the internet… Want to get dog piled on the internet? Admit you shot something and couldn’t recover it. Either way on the animals that died the 223 “worked.” Confirmation bias achieved. Suddenly “everybody was wrong for the last 100 years, 223 is a great elk cartridge.” Rokslide is full of people who are downright willfully ignorant about terminal ballistics and firearms in general. As someone else said, if I had 6 weeks to hunt elk every year and a $20 general tag in my pocket every year I might fuck around with small calibers on elk and really, really pick my shots. As for now, given I get about 5 days and spend about $1500 a year on tags and points, something with a bit more margin for error is probably prudent, and that’s probably true for most people. Why would anyone take a shoulder shot with a 223? Why not just wait and take a clean broadside? That's what I did. Easy pezy. Drt. You act like you are forced into a shoulder shot but I wouldn't take one with your wonder magnum. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:50:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would anyone take a shoulder shot with a 223? Why not just wait and take a clean broadside? That's what I did. Easy pezy. Drt. You act like you are forced into a shoulder shot but I wouldn't take one with your wonder magnum. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get out your MSPaintbrush and circle the spot where a .300 Win Mag kills an elk immediately but a .223 (77 TMK) wounds it. https://cdn.britannica.com/03/94603-050-D74D3709/elk-American-Yellowstone-National-Park-Wyoming.jpg I know there are spots on the elk where either bullet will kill immediately, and other spots where either bullet only wounds it. What is the middle ground where one works and the other doesn't? The light, thin jacketed 77gr hits the front shoulder bone. Instead of punching through with a bonded or copper solid 180gr 300 WM bullet and taking out both lungs, the 77gr bullet deflects forward into the brisket and or disintegrates, only causes damage to one lung. The critter dies a slow painful dealth, and due to the likely lack of exit wound and tiny entrance wound, tracking is difficult if not downright impossible. I know a 77gr OTM bullet will penetrate far enough against humans to be very effective for self defense. Certainty they can penetrate plenty on an elk to kill it as dead as a 375 H&H. But it doesn’t guarantee adequate straight line penetration if large bone mass is hit. Just because a handful of people on the internet post a bunch of pictures and say small caliber OTM bullets can kill large game, doesn’t make it a good idea. I’d be willing to bet a paycheck that there were a more than a few “misses” that were really wounded elk that some of those posters will never admit to in the thread linked above. Maybe they really believed they missed. Of course they won’t admit to any of that on the internet… Want to get dog piled on the internet? Admit you shot something and couldn’t recover it. Either way on the animals that died the 223 “worked.” Confirmation bias achieved. Suddenly “everybody was wrong for the last 100 years, 223 is a great elk cartridge.” Rokslide is full of people who are downright willfully ignorant about terminal ballistics and firearms in general. As someone else said, if I had 6 weeks to hunt elk every year and a $20 general tag in my pocket every year I might fuck around with small calibers on elk and really, really pick my shots. As for now, given I get about 5 days and spend about $1500 a year on tags and points, something with a bit more margin for error is probably prudent, and that’s probably true for most people. Why would anyone take a shoulder shot with a 223? Why not just wait and take a clean broadside? That's what I did. Easy pezy. Drt. You act like you are forced into a shoulder shot but I wouldn't take one with your wonder magnum. Maneuvering for a better shot out of a blind, tree stand or sxs is nigh unpossible without alerting every game animal on the lease with the smell alone. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:53:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FIFY - Elk are so cute, like a caribou on steroids. @AKCaribouhunter? That's pretty harsh What folks do in Alaska in a pinch, and what people with a choice should do are very different things. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:53:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nosler RDF. In my experience you’ll either have good luck with the 70’s or the barrel won’t like them. I was lucky and found the sweet spot almost immediately. That being said, I only have a couple of barrels that shoot them really well. The 77’s seem to be far more forgiving. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What are those turbo crazy bullets with really really high BC called? I'm blanking Nosler RDF. In my experience you’ll either have good luck with the 70’s or the barrel won’t like them. I was lucky and found the sweet spot almost immediately. That being said, I only have a couple of barrels that shoot them really well. The 77’s seem to be far more forgiving. That seems right. There's some other crazy stuff like the lathed bronze 30cal stuff I think pelt guys used, AKSnowRider says they don't sell them anymore due to AP worries |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:53:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would anyone take a shoulder shot with a 223? Why not just wait and take a clean broadside? That's what I did. Easy pezy. Drt. You act like you are forced into a shoulder shot but I wouldn't take one with your wonder magnum. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get out your MSPaintbrush and circle the spot where a .300 Win Mag kills an elk immediately but a .223 (77 TMK) wounds it. https://cdn.britannica.com/03/94603-050-D74D3709/elk-American-Yellowstone-National-Park-Wyoming.jpg I know there are spots on the elk where either bullet will kill immediately, and other spots where either bullet only wounds it. What is the middle ground where one works and the other doesn't? The light, thin jacketed 77gr hits the front shoulder bone. Instead of punching through with a bonded or copper solid 180gr 300 WM bullet and taking out both lungs, the 77gr bullet deflects forward into the brisket and or disintegrates, only causes damage to one lung. The critter dies a slow painful dealth, and due to the likely lack of exit wound and tiny entrance wound, tracking is difficult if not downright impossible. I know a 77gr OTM bullet will penetrate far enough against humans to be very effective for self defense. Certainty they can penetrate plenty on an elk to kill it as dead as a 375 H&H. But it doesn’t guarantee adequate straight line penetration if large bone mass is hit. Just because a handful of people on the internet post a bunch of pictures and say small caliber OTM bullets can kill large game, doesn’t make it a good idea. I’d be willing to bet a paycheck that there were a more than a few “misses” that were really wounded elk that some of those posters will never admit to in the thread linked above. Maybe they really believed they missed. Of course they won’t admit to any of that on the internet… Want to get dog piled on the internet? Admit you shot something and couldn’t recover it. Either way on the animals that died the 223 “worked.” Confirmation bias achieved. Suddenly “everybody was wrong for the last 100 years, 223 is a great elk cartridge.” Rokslide is full of people who are downright willfully ignorant about terminal ballistics and firearms in general. As someone else said, if I had 6 weeks to hunt elk every year and a $20 general tag in my pocket every year I might fuck around with small calibers on elk and really, really pick my shots. As for now, given I get about 5 days and spend about $1500 a year on tags and points, something with a bit more margin for error is probably prudent, and that’s probably true for most people. Why would anyone take a shoulder shot with a 223? Why not just wait and take a clean broadside? That's what I did. Easy pezy. Drt. You act like you are forced into a shoulder shot but I wouldn't take one with your wonder magnum. Because most people are bad shots and undisciplined hunters. Factor in wind and movement and that perfect shots you waited for isn't perfect anymore. I prefer shoulder shots as it typically anchors the animal quicker. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 7:53:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Elk and moose. Seriously? here ya go 77gr knowledge Here’s another one. With 50’s.  Campfire thread |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:01:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What folks do in Alaska in a pinch <---  , and what people with a choice should do are very different things.People don't think physics be like it is, but it do... 
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:05:02 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would anyone take a shoulder shot with a 223? Why not just wait and take a clean broadside? That's what I did. Easy pezy. Drt. You act like you are forced into a shoulder shot but I wouldn't take one with your wonder magnum. The question was “point out a shot where a 300 WM would be fatal and a 77 gr 223 would not.” You are moving the goalposts. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:07:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to do that, but now I just shoot the same load the whole match. Just know your drops and you’ll be fine. I’ve squadded with the AMU guys several times throughout the years and have witnessed Horner and crew break out boxes of Mk262, just to shred paper at 10 yards. Thank you taxpayers! |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:14:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People don't think physics be like it is, but it do... https://media.tenor.com/G4A4PYWNeIgAAAAC/benshapiro-facts.gif You act like polymer tipped bullets are some new magic bullet... they've been around for awhile. Just because you choose to use a less optimal caliber and people lie about the range they're taking game at, and fail to mention all the "misses" (wounded game running off) doesn't make you right. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:17:03 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would anyone take a shoulder shot with a 223? Why not just wait and take a clean broadside? That's what I did. Easy pezy. Drt. You act like you are forced into a shoulder shot but I wouldn't take one with your wonder magnum. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get out your MSPaintbrush and circle the spot where a .300 Win Mag kills an elk immediately but a .223 (77 TMK) wounds it. https://cdn.britannica.com/03/94603-050-D74D3709/elk-American-Yellowstone-National-Park-Wyoming.jpg I know there are spots on the elk where either bullet will kill immediately, and other spots where either bullet only wounds it. What is the middle ground where one works and the other doesn't? The light, thin jacketed 77gr hits the front shoulder bone. Instead of punching through with a bonded or copper solid 180gr 300 WM bullet and taking out both lungs, the 77gr bullet deflects forward into the brisket and or disintegrates, only causes damage to one lung. The critter dies a slow painful dealth, and due to the likely lack of exit wound and tiny entrance wound, tracking is difficult if not downright impossible. I know a 77gr OTM bullet will penetrate far enough against humans to be very effective for self defense. Certainty they can penetrate plenty on an elk to kill it as dead as a 375 H&H. But it doesn’t guarantee adequate straight line penetration if large bone mass is hit. Just because a handful of people on the internet post a bunch of pictures and say small caliber OTM bullets can kill large game, doesn’t make it a good idea. I’d be willing to bet a paycheck that there were a more than a few “misses” that were really wounded elk that some of those posters will never admit to in the thread linked above. Maybe they really believed they missed. Of course they won’t admit to any of that on the internet… Want to get dog piled on the internet? Admit you shot something and couldn’t recover it. Either way on the animals that died the 223 “worked.” Confirmation bias achieved. Suddenly “everybody was wrong for the last 100 years, 223 is a great elk cartridge.” Rokslide is full of people who are downright willfully ignorant about terminal ballistics and firearms in general. As someone else said, if I had 6 weeks to hunt elk every year and a $20 general tag in my pocket every year I might fuck around with small calibers on elk and really, really pick my shots. As for now, given I get about 5 days and spend about $1500 a year on tags and points, something with a bit more margin for error is probably prudent, and that’s probably true for most people. Why would anyone take a shoulder shot with a 223? Why not just wait and take a clean broadside? That's what I did. Easy pezy. Drt. You act like you are forced into a shoulder shot but I wouldn't take one with your wonder magnum. Sometimes it's the only shot you are going to get. Or the animal moves. Or you miss for any of 87 other reasons. Shoulder shot is an excellent option on Elk. Well not with some anemic round, but a bonded .300Win mag works fine. They don't run so good with a fucked shoulder and three working legs. And with a proper gun and ammo, it will continue on to penetrate into the vital area. That's always one of the dead giveaways that the people advocating for not enough gun, don't really hunt much. To them, perfect shot placement is a given, and animals just fall straight down dead after. People who actually hunt, know that's usually not the case. You might only get one opportunity at an imperfect shot, and if you pass it up, no meat for you. They have huge lungs, so if you're going for a lung shot, whatever you hit it with better do a lot of damage. If not, the animal might just decide to run a mile through the woods. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:19:11 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sometimes it's the only shot you are going to get. Or the animal moves. Or you miss for any of 87 other reasons. Shoulder shot is an excellent option on Elk. Well not with some anemic round, but a bonded .300Win mag works fine. They don't run so good with a fucked shoulder and three working legs. And with a proper gun and ammo, it will continue on to penetrate into the vital area. That's always one of the dead giveaways that the people advocating for not enough gun, don't really hunt much. To them, perfect shot placement is a given, and animals just fall straight down dead after. People who actually hunt, know that's usually not the case. You might only get one opportunity at an imperfect shot, and if you pass it up, no meat for you. They have huge lungs, so if you're going for a lung shot, whatever you hit it with better do a lot of damage. If not, the animal might just decide to run a mile through the woods. These are the same people that were probably arguing that headshots were a good idea last year... |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:19:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You act like polymer tipped bullets are some new magic bullet... they've been around for awhile. Just because you choose to use a less optimal caliber and people lie about the range they're taking game at, and fail to mention all the "misses" (wounded game running off) doesn't make you right. Why would these things be true for 223 but not other calibers? |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:21:19 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would these things be true for 223 but not other calibers? You're less likely to know you actually got a hit with the .223 (no blood trail) and assume that the round was just deflected by the wind or a branch. Animals tend to react to even a poor shot from big calibers |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:42:17 PM EDT
[#48]
most half inch 5 shot groups I have shot are using 75-7 grain Hornday and Sierras. My buddies and I shoot out to 800 yards with our AR's and it is crazy how much easier it is with the 77 grain bullets.
  
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:43:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You act like polymer tipped bullets are some new magic bullet... they've been around for awhile. Just because you choose to use a less optimal caliber and people lie about the range they're taking game at, and fail to mention all the "misses" (wounded game running off) doesn't make you right. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: People don't think physics be like it is, but it do... https://media.tenor.com/G4A4PYWNeIgAAAAC/benshapiro-facts.gif You act like polymer tipped bullets are some new magic bullet... they've been around for awhile. Just because you choose to use a less optimal caliber and people lie about the range they're taking game at, and fail to mention all the "misses" (wounded game running off) doesn't make you right. Click To View Spoiler |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 8:47:31 PM EDT
[#50]
 Attached FileWild animal in the burbs.. 55 grain?? 77 grain?? 308??? 556??? Glock 26?? Oh shit maybe I need an RDS?? Oh hell…, What to do!!!! |
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