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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:28:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Imagine how the mesopotamians felt.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:29:26 PM EDT
[#2]
We were miles ahead of what the enemy was using; other than mag capacity.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:29:43 PM EDT
[#3]
It's as if... technology was improving from WWII.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:31:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s Lets not forget that Ordinance's fuckery made sure that not only did a lot of guys get killed for Ordinance's fetishes, but the average grunt lost the ability to trust his weapon. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:35:30 PM EDT
[#5]
The worst part was probably an air campaign intentionally designed to put pilots at risk of getting shot down without doing any damage to the enemy.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:37:04 PM EDT
[#6]
What's really shocking is we didn't have an aggressive policy toward taking the war to the north.
We should have leveled every city in the north with perpetual carpet bombing. Their ports and cities should have looked like an atomic weapon hit them. It's my personal belief that no war can be won on defense. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:37:41 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:37:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Vietnam was not just a war; it was a crucible for modern tactics and techniques. Maybe we can say that’s the case for every war but it was a unique intersection between WWII and now.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:40:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s That's nothing. We ate Ham and Lima beans C rations and liked them. Don't concern yourself. We did OK. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:42:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s OD green uniforms actually work pretty damn good. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:42:51 PM EDT
[#11]
they needed D60 drums and plate carriers
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:43:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vietnam was not just a war; it was a crucible for modern tactics and techniques. Maybe we can say that’s the case for every war but it was a unique intersection between WWII and now. Not just the TTP’s, but also for public perception and understanding of war at home. Never before was it televised and broadcast so vividly, quickly and unfiltered. I’m sure to WW2 and Korea vets it was a sight all too familiar, but to the rest of the Jodies it was a tough dose of reality. Intersection of warfare is a very accurate statement, in many more ways than one. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:43:35 PM EDT
[#13]
A protracted war with no concrete goals that went on forever because no one really had any idea what would actually constitute victory.
Thank God we don't do that shit anymore. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:44:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Change the material of the web gear slightly, change the magazines to 30 rounders - and it was standard infantry gear well into the 1990s.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:44:25 PM EDT
[#15]
You could drop our modern military into the 60s 70s and we'd still have a shit show. Won the fights lost the war.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:44:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The worst part was probably an air campaign intentionally designed to put pilots at risk of getting shot down without doing any damage to the enemy. LBJ & Lady Bird and Bell Helicopter |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:44:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's really shocking is we didn't have an aggressive policy toward taking the war to the north. We should have leveled every city in the north with perpetual carpet bombing. Their ports and cities should have looked like an atomic weapon hit them. It's my personal belief that no war can be won on defense. I used to think the same thing. But they were terrified of the Chinese getting involved |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:45:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's nothing. We ate Ham and Lima beans C rations and liked them. Don't concern yourself. We did OK. & There It Is... I liked my M-16 and Thank God For Dustoffs. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:47:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to think the same thing. But they were terrified of the Chinese getting involved We could have paid every man woman and child in Vietnam $10,000 to quite being communists and probably saved half of what we spent and saved all our own kid's lives and limbs... |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:49:49 PM EDT
[#20]
I bet them boys at Guadalcanal would have felt those boys in Vietnam had it easy
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:53:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank God For Dustoffs.  |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:55:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not just the TTP’s, but also for public perception and understanding of war at home. Never before was it televised and broadcast so vividly, quickly and unfiltered. I’m sure to WW2 and Korea vets it was a sight all too familiar, but to the rest of the Jodies it was a tough dose of reality. Intersection of warfare is a very accurate statement, in many more ways than one. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Vietnam was not just a war; it was a crucible for modern tactics and techniques. Maybe we can say that’s the case for every war but it was a unique intersection between WWII and now. Not just the TTP’s, but also for public perception and understanding of war at home. Never before was it televised and broadcast so vividly, quickly and unfiltered. I’m sure to WW2 and Korea vets it was a sight all too familiar, but to the rest of the Jodies it was a tough dose of reality. Intersection of warfare is a very accurate statement, in many more ways than one. Fair. Because it was also the disconnect between warfare that the populace was aware and cared about, and sacrificed for, and this completely new style of war where nobody has to miss a beat. “We” just sent our young people off to war and most of them came back. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:56:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Change the material of the web gear slightly, change the magazines to 30 rounders - and it was standard infantry gear well into the 1990s. So yeah you could have time warped me back to 1969 Republic of Vietnam and I would have fit right in. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:57:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to think the same thing. But they were terrified of the Chinese getting involved The problem is that there was a lot of the same kind of mindset as "just hand over the wallet, money ain't worth your life". The refusal to suppress air defenses around Hanoi is a perfect example: the AA was totally-not-Soviet, so we can't hit it because it will cause a Diplomatic Incident. Instead of the obvious (to anyone not educated to a high enough level of idiocy) solution of pounding the hell out of those sites, and then if the USSR complained went full Chad "naw we couldn't have killed any Russians because they couldn't have been there as they weren't allowed". If you want to maintain limited warfare then you need to either explicitly punish cheaters so hard they shit themselves at the mere thought of doing it again, or counter-cheat to convey the message while leaving them no room for complaint. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 8:59:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A protracted war with no concrete goals that went on forever because no one really had any idea what would actually constitute victory. Thank God we don't do that shit anymore. Forever wars are from God and God do I miss them. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:00:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We could have paid every man woman and child in Vietnam $10,000 to quite being communists and probably saved half of what we spent and saved all our own kid's lives and limbs... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I used to think the same thing. But they were terrified of the Chinese getting involved We could have paid every man woman and child in Vietnam $10,000 to quite being communists and probably saved half of what we spent and saved all our own kid's lives and limbs... How do you get the $10,000 to every one of them then get the goods they are buying to every one of them? It's not like they are in some American state. It's a foreign country. Sure the leaders could be easily enough handed a pile of cash. A attempt was made to buy off the communist block. It didn't work. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:02:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Yeah, but the tiger stripe jungle fatigues were the coolest.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:04:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A protracted war with no concrete goals that went on forever because no one really had any idea what would actually constitute victory. Thank God we don't do that shit anymore.  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:06:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Maybe this will help, my step-father was an 11B and deployed with B 2/7 Cav in '65 from Ft. Benning and was at Ia Drang with Moore. They shipped out with and had trained with M-14's. They were issued the M16 during the troop ship voyage and with had limited training and only basic familiarization fire off the ship while in transit. Mag pouches were for M-14's. Although at the time, the 1st Cav-Airmobile was considered the premier Division ... when had big Army ever supplied tier 1 units with tier 1 equipment???
Nothing much had changed as far as gear and uniforms when I enlisted in '80. Still was issued OD green fatigues, khakis, and 20 rounders were the predominant mag. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:07:03 PM EDT
[#30]
They did plenty of testing and came to the conclusion that camouflage uniforms didn’t have any great advantage.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:08:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We were miles ahead of what the enemy was using; other than mag capacity. While when we think of the NVA & VC, we imagine them all armed with the AK, many were issued SKS and a variety of bolt-action rifles and other surplus weapons from previous wars. The Chinese in particular, even while engaging a proxy war with the U.S., were hesitant to supply tier-1 weaponry to the North Vietnamese. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:10:19 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:16:01 PM EDT
[#33]
The only real difference from my OSUT class in '89 and Nam vets was my Kevlar helmet and we did have 30 round mags.
We wore LBE, pro mask, helmet and carried a M16. No body armor. It was hot as balls at Benning. I'm not sure how the new guys do it wearing armor. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:19:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s Just wait until we find ourselves in an actual shooting war without fire support because there aren't enough howitzers to fill the gap left by CAS that can't make it to the FEBA. It's going to a bloody shitshow and we only have ourselves to blame. The Corpse doesn't even have 105mm cannons anymore.  Aliens (1986) - Harsh Language/Close Encounters (Frost and Hicks Quotes) |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:21:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Like everything else, it comes down to how much you want to spend and on what things. LBJ's Great Society, the Apollo program and ICBMs are expensive.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:23:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We could have paid every man woman and child in Vietnam $10,000 to quite being communists and probably saved half of what we spent and saved all our own kid's lives and limbs... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I used to think the same thing. But they were terrified of the Chinese getting involved We could have paid every man woman and child in Vietnam $10,000 to quite being communists and probably saved half of what we spent and saved all our own kid's lives and limbs... Why not let them be commie for free? Chinese and Vietnamese have a primeval hatred of each other. Regardless of their politics. The goal should of been support of a nation hostile to China. Stay out, let them fight. Hop in bed with the winner. Which is where it ended up. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:26:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There was room for improvement, but it's not like the Viet Cong had better gear, or much of any gear or standardization for that matter. The NVA had more proper gear, but it would be unfair to say it was still even close to what we issued. I don't even know if the entirety of the NVA had proper boots issued to them. If anybody knows for sure, I'm interested, but I think many of them were still in the flip flop gang. Unlike the VC, those motherfuckers could fight, though. They were fairly well trained and surprisingly durable troops. They trip down the HCM trail was brutal. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:47:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only real difference from my OSUT class in '89 and Nam vets was my Kevlar helmet and we did have 30 round mags. We wore LBE, pro mask, helmet and carried a M16. No body armor. It was hot as balls at Benning. I'm not sure how the new guys do it wearing armor. Lots of water and squats. 
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Posted: 12/12/2021 9:53:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Well. About all that.
20:rounds were standard from the M14 and soon replaced by the 30rounders. 40s are unwieldy and unreliable. The ALICE pouches work fine. They keep mags clean in the mud or dusted conditions. A web belt carries two quarts of water and 180 rounds of ammo. Additional attached to your pack which can be dropped in a fire fight. Duct tape quiets web gear. And who uses slings anyway. Flak vest. Only the Jar Heads wore them. I’m not sure. The Army didn’t. The Nam vets will tell you the green jungles were the best color. Certainly better than the replacement BDU and who knows about the grab bag of colors since then. Pistols are for REMFs. Who cares about them. M14s are ancient history. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:01:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lots of water and squats. Eating CeraSport. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:01:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bet them boys at Guadalcanal would have felt those boys in Vietnam had it easy The average infantryman in vietnam seen 15x the combat of your average ww2 infantryman. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:07:25 PM EDT
[#42]
Imagine how I felt going to war in 2006 with a vehicle that didn't have V-shaped hull to deflect explosive blasts from the inevitable IED's.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:07:31 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's nothing. We ate Ham and Lima beans C rations and liked them. Don't concern yourself. We did OK. Yep. We did ok. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:11:36 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Change the material of the web gear slightly, change the magazines to 30 rounders - and it was standard infantry gear well into the 1990s. It's interesting how these history revisionists get hyper focused/tunnel vision on an era. Next they'll be asking why we issued 62gr ammo designed to be used against Soviet troops with body armor out of a 20" rifle to folks using 14.5" carbines. Oh, yeah, that's been done, just like the op's questions, ad nauseum. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:13:18 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bet them boys at Guadalcanal would have felt those boys in Vietnam had it easy And "them boys" at Belleau Wood would have felt that those boys on Guadalcanal had it easy. And "them boys" at The Battle of the Wilderness would have felt that those at Belleau Wood had it easy. And so on.... |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:16:46 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe this will help, my step-father was an 11B and deployed with B 2/7 Cav in '65 from Ft. Benning and was at Ia Drang with Moore. They shipped out with and had trained with M-14's. They were issued the M16 during the troop ship voyage and with had limited training and only basic familiarization fire off the ship while in transit. Mag pouches were for M-14's. Although at the time, the 1st Cav-Airmobile was considered the premier Division ... when had big Army ever supplied tier 1 units with tier 1 equipment??? Nothing much had changed as far as gear and uniforms when I enlisted in '80. Still was issued OD green fatigues, khakis, and 20 rounders were the predominant mag. Strange. When I joined the Marines in 1977 we were issued two sets of sateen green utilities and two sets of woodland cammies. The ONLY time we ever wore those sateens was during 2nd phase while on the rifle range. After that they went into the wall locker and never used again in my four years. Our M16A1s had 30- round magazines. I never saw a 20-rounder. We had steel pots, yes, but nylon web gear and the ALICE pack Load Bearing Equipment system. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:18:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OD green uniforms actually work pretty damn good. The 100% cotton slant pocket OD Greens were also cooler and longer lasting that the rip-more shit that replaced the Greens. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:19:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well. About all that. 20:rounds were standard from the M14 and soon replaced by the 30rounders. 40s are unwieldy and unreliable. The ALICE pouches work fine. They keep mags clean in the mud or dusted conditions. A web belt carries two quarts of water and 180 rounds of ammo. Additional attached to your pack which can be dropped in a fire fight. Duct tape quiets web gear. And who uses slings anyway. The Nam vets will tell you the green jungles were the best color. Certainly better than the replacement BDU and who knows about the grab bag of colors since then. Pistols are for REMFs. Who cares about them. M14s are ancient history. This. The gear was constantly "upgradedd" from the Canvas M-1956 to the nylon M-1967 as pouches, pistol belts, packs, uniforms, boots, weapons & other gear adapted to the realities of Jungle warfare. Lugging a long & heavy semi-auto only M-14 in Vietnam with the ammo too? - a very poor weapon for that kind of warfare as M-14s were replaced as quickly as possible by the M-16. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:20:12 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Forever wars are from God and God do I miss them. See you at Charon |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:21:54 PM EDT
[#50]
I didn’t read any of this thread and will not read anything after I post.
I was a nasty reservist 0311 in the anbar province of Iraq in 04-05. I purchased over $500 of cold weather gear before deploying and still frozen my ass off during the winter. I continue to have skin problems that I did not have before deploying. I went well over 2 months without a shower in one FOB. I came to realize that politicians do not give one single fuck about the enlisted servicemen that they send to war. Fuck every politician. |
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