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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:26:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Imagine how I felt going to war in 2006 with a vehicle that didn't have V-shaped hull to deflect explosive blasts from the inevitable IED's. 
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:29:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Nothing wrong with 20 round magazines.
They can easily be carried in a lot of pouches, pockets, etc that 30 rounders cannot go into They also are good in the prone position I have talked with a lot guys who served in the infantry in Vietnam and none complained about the 20 round magazines being inadequate |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:31:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The worst part was probably an air campaign intentionally designed to put pilots at risk of getting shot down without doing any damage to the enemy. I find small arms and personal issued equipment very interesting but for the cost of just a few of the thousands of modern combat aitcraft used in the conflict the infantry could have had numerous pieces of equipment upgraded. This tells me the military does not feel it makes much difference in grand scheme of things and other issues are worth more to them. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:32:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s We carried that same shit in 1990, we had 'Nam era flack jackets, steel pots, 1911's, M14's and Mossberg 500's in the armory. New stuff didn't start coming in until '91 after Gulf I started changing our ops view from the Fulda Gap to the sand box. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:00:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s I never realized you were in Nam. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:04:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I find small arms and personal issued equipment very interesting but for the cost of just a few of the thousands of modern combat aitcraft used in the conflict the infantry could have had numerous pieces of equipment upgraded. This tells me the military does not feel it makes much difference in grand scheme of things and other issues are worth more to them. But you're leaving out that the Marines were sent in to protect the airbases and it escalated from there. And then it became a war of numbers. Not territory. Once you willingly cede territory to an enemy and go back in sometime later to simply do the same, you've already lost. They say at the height of the war there were 500,000 US personnel over there. But what they omit is that the majority of them were in supporting roles in the rear. At no time in the entire war were 500,000 troops actively engaged in combat. Or even in combat related fields. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:05:27 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never realized you were in Nam. He watched "We were soldiers ", and became an ex-purt. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:08:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Forever wars are from God and God do I miss them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A protracted war with no concrete goals that went on forever because no one really had any idea what would actually constitute victory. Thank God we don't do that shit anymore. Forever wars are from God and God do I miss them. “The problem with forever wars is eventually you run out of other people’s money.”, wtte, ~ Donald Trump 
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:08:57 PM EDT
[#9]
The US Army’s gear was pretty much the same in 1990 as it was in Vietnam.
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:17:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The US Army's gear was pretty much the same in 1990 as it was in Vietnam. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:18:27 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: The worst part was probably an air campaign intentionally designed to put pilots at risk of getting shot down without doing any damage to the enemy. Quoted: What's really shocking is we didn't have an aggressive policy toward taking the war to the north. We should have leveled every city in the north with perpetual carpet bombing. Their ports and cities should have looked like an atomic weapon hit them. It's my personal belief that no war can be won on defense. Quoted: A protracted war with no concrete goals that went on forever because no one really had any idea what would actually constitute victory. Thank God we don't do that shit anymore. It is called a flak jacket not advertised as bulletproof. We had all of the Vietnam gear when I was in. I never felt like I needed more or better gear. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:18:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Kids were tougher then
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:29:48 PM EDT
[#13]
I always think about the guys in WW2 running around with no protection, shooting each other with 30.06's...
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:33:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lets not forget that Ordinance's fuckery made sure that not only did a lot of guys get killed for Ordinance's fetishes, but the average grunt lost the ability to trust his weapon. Yep. This guy explains the Ordnance branch's M16 sabotaging and subsequent debacle in Vietnam.  What Happened with the M16 in Vietnam? |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:12:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nothing wrong with 20 round magazines. They can easily be carried in a lot of pouches, pockets, etc that 30 rounders cannot go into They also are good in the prone position I have talked with a lot guys who served in the infantry in Vietnam and none complained about the 20 round magazines being inadequate |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:12:32 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never realized you were in Nam. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:16:00 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's as if... technology was improving from WWII. STG44: 30 rounds Thompson: 30 rounds M2 Carbine: 30 rounds AK47: 30 rounds M16 (unless you were a recon Marine or a SEAL or really late in the war): 20 round bullshit when you needed the firepower the most |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:16:59 AM EDT
[#18]
they were fighting communists for a communist government... did you expect the communist government to actually support them?
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:20:18 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Way too slowly. The infantry got shafted. STG44: 30 rounds Thompson: 30 rounds M2 Carbine: 30 rounds AK47: 30 rounds M16 (unless you were a recon Marine or a SEAL or really late in the war): 20 round bullshit when you needed the firepower the most There was a long running pattern of the brass in multiple militaries (particularly British and American) resisting any attempt to increase the firepower available to the individual soldier. They had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming over the better part of a century. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:23:53 AM EDT
[#20]
The big problem was the US support of the French in reclaiming their colony.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:52:07 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well. About all that. 20:rounds were standard from the M14 and soon replaced by the 30rounders. 40s are unwieldy and unreliable. The ALICE pouches work fine. They keep mags clean in the mud or dusted conditions. A web belt carries two quarts of water and 180 rounds of ammo. Additional attached to your pack which can be dropped in a fire fight. Duct tape quiets web gear. And who uses slings anyway. Flak vest. Only the Jar Heads wore them. I'm not sure. The Army didn't. The Nam vets will tell you the green jungles were the best color. Certainly better than the replacement BDU and who knows about the grab bag of colors since then. Pistols are for REMFs. Who cares about them. M14s are ancient history. 30-round mags didn't show up until late in the war (i.e. after 1970), and even then it was mainly the high-speed guys that got them. Vast majority of troops in Vietnam used 20-rounders for most of the war. (I've seen a few pics of 30-rounders pre-1970, but they are rare.) ALICE gear arrived after the war. The guys in Vietnam used M1956 (canvas) pouches, and later M1967 (nylon) pouches. Army had flak vests (M1952A and M69), they just didn't wear them as much as the Marines (M1955). |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 8:41:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Making useless comments about the military equipment used over 50 years ago is funny as hell.
A lot of technology was created during the Vietnam that was improved upon later. Like night vision. It was classified at the time but there was some very earlier GPS technology used in the field by the Army Security Agency and the Navy. The post WWII/Korea web gear and weapons were really developed for a war in Europe but evolved during the war including the M-14 being replaced by the M-16. 50 years from now somebody will be ridiculing the military technology we are using now. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 8:58:44 AM EDT
[#23]
I think when looking back, people forget the war began only 20 years after WWII ended. And WWII started about 20 years after WWI ended. There was actually a lot of change in those decades. And a lot of change within the timeframe of the wars.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:03:10 AM EDT
[#24]
Uh, we had nearly the same gear 30 years after Vietnam.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:13:19 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The big problem was the US support of the French in reclaiming their colony. Oh yes,the revisionism of “Ho Chi Minh wasn’t a Communist until the US made him turn to the Soviets”,like Mao was simply an agrarian reformer and Castro was a nationalist who had no choice but to turn to Communism to fix all of the corruption the US instilled in Cuba. If the US had been losing major battles on the ground the OP might have more of a point but the only thing that really needs said about what would have changed the outcome of the war is the success of Operation Pocket Money vs how many lives and airframes were lost due to McNamara’s “strategy”. 30 round magazines would have had zero appreciable difference. Mining every harbor in 1966 would have. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:24:52 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's really shocking is we didn't have an aggressive policy toward taking the war to the north. We should have leveled every city in the north with perpetual carpet bombing. Their ports and cities should have looked like an atomic weapon hit them. It's my personal belief that no war can be won on defense. They did not want to win. The powers wanted that cash cow to go on as long as possible. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:32:08 AM EDT
[#27]
I deployed to Vietnam caring M1941 transport pack just like the ones they used in Korea and WWII. We carried our M-16 magazines in M-14 magazine pouches until we found an Army guy to steal his stuff.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:36:40 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just wait until we find ourselves in an actual shooting war without fire support because there aren't enough howitzers to fill the gap left by CAS that can't make it to the FEBA. It's going to a bloody shitshow and we only have ourselves to blame. The Corpse doesn't even have 105mm cannons anymore.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i33DX9Wjd7EThe Marines have the Iowa class battleships that can provide fire support up to around 20 miles inland. Oh, wait... |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:40:06 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s I bet those flak vests saved a lot of people from B40 and random other shrapnel. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:40:16 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn’t read any of this thread and will not read anything after I post. I was a nasty reservist 0311 in the anbar province of Iraq in 04-05. I purchased over $500 of cold weather gear before deploying and still frozen my ass off during the winter. I continue to have skin problems that I did not have before deploying. I went well over 2 months without a shower in one FOB. I came to realize that politicians do not give one single fuck about the enlisted servicemen that they send to war. Fuck every politician. And just how is a flag officer supposed to secure a sweet retirement gig by spending time on living conditions? |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:45:30 AM EDT
[#31]
For a bunch of poorly equipped grunts they did a dammed fine job of killing fucking communists.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 9:49:08 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A protracted war with no concrete goals that went on forever because no one really had any idea what would actually constitute victory. Thank God we don't do that shit anymore. I see what you did there. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:01:49 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Way too slowly. The infantry got shafted. STG44: 30 rounds Thompson: 30 rounds M2 Carbine: 30 rounds AK47: 30 rounds M16 (unless you were a recon Marine or a SEAL or really late in the war): 20 round bullshit when you needed the firepower the most The StG-44, M2 Carbine, and AK were all deployed as tools to replace the SMG. The M16 was designed to be a rifle. Different mindset in tactics that led to their development. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:11:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The StG-44, M2 Carbine, and AK were all deployed as tools to replace the SMG. The M16 was designed to be a rifle. Different mindset in tactics that led to their development. Which is particularly stupid because one of the goals for the M14 was to replace SMGs. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:31:27 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s Ah. You suffer from the "think now and apply back" syndrome. If you're going to learn the "how and why" you'll need to step back and look 3rd person and research. Here are some legit answers to your questions: -The M16 was a lightweight rifle first and foremost. Not a tacti-coolio recce rifle. Remember what came before the M16 and the doctrine the M16 was introduced to. The 30's came along quickly and the 40's have not even been practical. -Not sure what to say on the mag pouches. Between the gear pouches and the ammo bandoliers I'd think it was sufficient. -The flak vest was meant to stop shrapnel, any bullet protection it gave was tertiary. -Slings. Again, back then slings were meant to shoulder carry the rifle and not meant for frontal low slung carry. The special forces I'm sure improvised to keep things quiet. -Olive drab uniforms are sufficient for infantry. -Flap holsters for infantry were the norm. The "quick draw" tacti-coolio mentality didn't come about for a long time. A combat soldier is not a civilian law enforcement officer. -Live and learn on the M14 wooden stocks. What I find interesting is how the Garand and M1 Carbine went all over the south Pacific and Japan and I can't find any nomenclature detailing any issues. Enter Vietnam and the M14 stock go to shit??? I agree though that the US Army should have known or tried a synthetic stock long before the M14 was replaced. Cheers. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:31:38 AM EDT
[#36]
Vietnam was basically WW2 equipment wise except everybody got a plastic machine gun
It was only 20 years later |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:35:38 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which is particularly stupid because one of the goals for the M14 was to replace SMGs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The StG-44, M2 Carbine, and AK were all deployed as tools to replace the SMG. The M16 was designed to be a rifle. Different mindset in tactics that led to their development. Which is particularly stupid because one of the goals for the M14 was to replace SMGs. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:40:05 AM EDT
[#38]
OD green is far better than 90% of the world's camo....
Especially in Vietnam! |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:47:22 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LBJ & Lady Bird and Bell Helicopter Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The worst part was probably an air campaign intentionally designed to put pilots at risk of getting shot down without doing any damage to the enemy. LBJ & Lady Bird and Bell Helicopter I think he is referring to passing our targets for the F-105 fighter bombers that were hitting SAM sites to Russia a week in advance, in theory to prevent Russian "advisors" from getting bombed at the sites and accidentally escalating the war. In practice this info was passed to North Vietnam, who removed the SA-2s and replaced them with whitewashed telephone poles, and ringed the target with every AA gun they could drag to the vicinity, getting a lot of F-105s shot down and a lot of pilots killed for no real damage to the enemy, due to our own actions. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:54:14 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And "them boys" at Belleau Wood would have felt that those boys on Guadalcanal had it easy. And "them boys" at The Battle of the Wilderness would have felt that those at Belleau Wood had it easy. And so on.... Soldier at Valley Forge: "You guys get SHOES!?!?!" |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:00:32 AM EDT
[#41]
In the Ohio NG in the early 1980's all of our equipment, except for the BDU's, were all Vietnam era items.
We had 30 round magazines. The 20's were better getting lower in the prone postition, plus easier to stick in a pocket. The 30's stuck out too far and fell out easier. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:05:13 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... -The M16 was a lightweight rifle first and foremost. Not a tacti-coolio recce rifle. Remember what came before the M16 and the doctrine the M16 was introduced to. The 30's came along quickly and the 40's have not even been practical. ... IIRC the original U.S. military purchaser of the AR15/M16 family was Strategic Air Command, who intended it to be a lightweight rifle for security forces guarding nuclear-armed bombers. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:28:01 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:43:20 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude, no. Think about it. There were guys carrying 20 mags in Claymore bags. Full auto fire was a normal thing. You get less than 2 sec with a 20 round mag. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Nothing wrong with 20 round magazines. They can easily be carried in a lot of pouches, pockets, etc that 30 rounders cannot go into They also are good in the prone position I have talked with a lot guys who served in the infantry in Vietnam and none complained about the 20 round magazines being inadequate So the first 20 rounds of a 30 rd magazine will only last less than 2 sec, how long will the remaining 10 last? Doesn’t sound like the 30 rd mag is that much more effective, using your figures. Full auto may have been a thing, but mag dumps are just a waste of ammo. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:45:21 AM EDT
[#45]
My old man’s comments on Vietnam (worth what you paid for them):
1. He loved the M14 (qualified with one, but only got M16s when he was there), but the M16 was easier to carry. M16 kills people just fine. 2. OD green was great, woodland was good, everything after was inferior. 3. LBJ was a commie prick that should have been tossed out of a helicopter at altitude. 4. He hated Vietnamese people in general, but liked Thais, Cambodians, and Laotians. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:45:27 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the first 20 rounds of a 30 rd magazine will only last less than 2 sec, how long will the remaining 10 last? Doesn’t sound like the 30 rd mag is that much more effective, using your figures. Full auto may have been a thing, but mag dumps are just a waste of ammo. Not ALWAYS. There's a place for auto in an infantryman's (person's?) rifle. Just not 99% of the time. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:45:36 AM EDT
[#47]
Our infantry was only poorly served by the politicians who put them in a war that we could not win based on a naive ROE and a desire to fight a proxy war against commies while failing to root out commies in the USA.
The failed experiment that was Vietnam led to the anti war movement, hippies, modern liberals, and the corruption we have today. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:57:17 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not ALWAYS. There's a place for auto in an infantryman's (person's?) rifle. Just not 99% of the time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So the first 20 rounds of a 30 rd magazine will only last less than 2 sec, how long will the remaining 10 last? Doesn’t sound like the 30 rd mag is that much more effective, using your figures. Full auto may have been a thing, but mag dumps are just a waste of ammo. Not ALWAYS. There's a place for auto in an infantryman's (person's?) rifle. Just not 99% of the time. Alex, your point is well taken. I should have said that mag dumps with no purpose are a waste. The only practical value the 30 rd mags have is to lengthen the time between mag changes. Holding down the go switch until empty negates that advantage in most cases. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:59:58 AM EDT
[#49]
Nothing wrong with the uniforms at all. It fit very well into the region. Could have done with a better poncho.
The "flak" vest was for shrapnel. A far more common wounding mechanism than bullets and there WASN'T any practical body armor. Kevlar was not invented till 1965 and was originally intended for use in car tires. It didn't get used in body armor until the middle 70's. Steel was the only helmet material. 20 rounders were handy and reliable. Early 30's sucked until they got the follower and mag body geometry worked out. In any case, the war was almost at an end when they reached widespread issue. Political incompetence was a far greater killer of troops than the equipment was. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:02:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think when looking back, people forget the war began only 20 years after WWII ended. And WWII started about 20 years after WWI ended. There was actually a lot of change in those decades. And a lot of change within the timeframe of the wars. I imagine the older guys in Vietnam who had also served in WWII and/or Korea thought the gear had improved a lot in those years. (Except maybe when it came to adopting the M16, but we all know that story by heart.) |
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