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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:29:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your issue is that you assuming that when you plug your car in at home that it will try and charge over 8 hours. This is not how it works. Chargers are designed to charge a battery as fast as possible. Not spread that charge out overtime because they have no way of knowing how long you will be plugged in for. When you get home and have 2 kinds and a spouse doing what they do you will have the highest load on your electrical systems. Hvac is working harder than it has all day the vast majority of appliances are only ran when you are at home, which is also peak power consumption hours. I get home at 630. I go to bed at 11 that gives me 4.5 hours to shower, cook, eat, Do dishes,laundry, and the ect. The appliances are all running at the same time at some point. Newer homes that were not built cheaply can power 1 ev. Very few have the capabilities to charge a second. People that can afford a Tesla don’t live in an older home, most have money and a newer home. Older homes have much less capable electrical systems. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you drive 40 miles a day in a gas car that get's 20 mpg and it has a 15 gallon tank, how many gallons do you need to put in each day to replace what you used in a day? A. 2 gallons. B. 15 gallons. If you drive 40 miles per day in an EV that uses .26kwh per mile and has a 78kwh battery, how many kwh do you need to replace what you used in a day? A. 10.4 kwh B. 78 kwh If you replace 10.4 kwh over 10 hours, how many watts will the charger draw? A. 1040 watts. B. 10400 watts. If you charge at 1040 watts, how many amps are used by the circuit if it was a 120V circuit? A. 8.7 amps. B. 100 amps. If you charge at 1040 watts, how many amps are used by the circuit if it was a 240v circuit? A. 4.3 amps. B. 100 amps. What kind of house does arfcom have that 8.7 amps causes problems, even if the hot water heater, oven, ac, dryer, laundry, dishwasher, run simultaneously all night long? Why do the hot water heaters, ac's, dryers, laundry, ovens, and dishwashers run continuously in arfcom homes? Why are lots of people able to charge their EV's at home but arfcom will never be able to do the same thing? Your issue is that you assuming that when you plug your car in at home that it will try and charge over 8 hours. This is not how it works. Chargers are designed to charge a battery as fast as possible. Not spread that charge out overtime because they have no way of knowing how long you will be plugged in for. When you get home and have 2 kinds and a spouse doing what they do you will have the highest load on your electrical systems. Hvac is working harder than it has all day the vast majority of appliances are only ran when you are at home, which is also peak power consumption hours. I get home at 630. I go to bed at 11 that gives me 4.5 hours to shower, cook, eat, Do dishes,laundry, and the ect. The appliances are all running at the same time at some point. Newer homes that were not built cheaply can power 1 ev. Very few have the capabilities to charge a second. People that can afford a Tesla don’t live in an older home, most have money and a newer home. Older homes have much less capable electrical systems. I know it boils down to money but upgrading service and wiring a garage is not that massive of an expense in the grand scheme of things. In 2005 I upgraded my last home from 80 amp to 200 amp service with a new panel for just a couple grand iirc. My home I'm in now was upgraded to 400 amp service with two 50amp plugs wired to the garage on each side for future proofing. Even then, you don't need 50 amps to charge an EV sustainably. Even just 20 to 30 amp circuits at 240v will be more than fine. People regularly overestime their needs until they actually own an EV. Ours charges so fast on a 50 amp circuit right now that it's almost always done charging before we even go to bed. It's overkill, not that this is a bad thing. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:48:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And in the same note, we've also proved that some people vastly overstate their actual charging capacities. I mean we have people who don't own electric cars trying to tell people that it's somehow normal to charge off of a 120v household electrical port due to some fuzzy math on limited commuting. And others thinking that a harbor freight generator is a perfectly reasonable way to charge a car. Just because you sit in a house that can easily retrofit extra solar polar and all the wiring to the garage that supports it doesn't mean everyone else can. Just look at our locations, for example. I'd need damn near twice the solar system you would for similar power. And when those issues are pointed out the only thing you can respond with is "Well is it really that much of an inconvenience to charge elsewhere?" and "I guess that's their own problem for not owning a house that can support it". Really, absolutely brilliant responses that are only paled by the new brand new one of "If you don't spend thousands of dollars on retrofitting this shit to buy an EV car you are literally slapping astronauts in the face" from the EV evangelist himself. You have to have some common sense and not be arguing things that are ridiculous. Lots if people can charge EV's at home right now even on trickle charging. Lots can easily add faster charging. No one is forcing EV's right now and sales are still going up. They have made huge improvements in a very recent time frame. No one considered them remotely practical until recently. Increased adoption makes the vehicles more practical. I look forward to improvements. I also know that fuel is necessary for many vehicles. I am against energy source racism. I promote education on the advantages, limitations, and future development of the technology. The ill informed environmental religion of the left is a danger to our civilization and environment. The same can be said for technology religion on this website. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:50:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I hope that continues to make this a non issue but right now if ONLY we could come up with an effective self charging sort of system. It would be the holy grail IMHO and push this right over the top and into a much more universal new era. What exactly do you mean by self charging? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:51:19 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What exactly do you mean by self charging? Like a hybrid car where the gas engine recharges the electrical batteries. Something along those lines. I realize things will have to be invented but I hope we get there someday. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:52:31 PM EDT
[#5]
I recall the CEO of GM- essentially saying the same.
No more research into ICE, all into EV/HICE. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:23:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Difference between EV and IC vehicle people? The latter aren’t trying to demand that the former change their lifestyle or driving habits because of their feels.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:27:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I recall the CEO of GM- essentially saying the same. No more research into ICE, all into EV/HICE. I see no problem with no more research into ICE engines. What we have now is fine. In 10-15 years they will realize that EVs are not the future and can resume ICE research if need be. My newest ICE vehicle is twenty years old. I have no issue with it. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:49:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And China will continue to make gasoline powered vehicles. Guess which country will win the auto manufacturing wars. China is pushing EVs harder than the US. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:53:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see no problem with no more research into ICE engines. What we have now is fine. In 10-15 years they will realize that EVs are not the future and can resume ICE research if need be. My newest ICE vehicle is twenty years old. I have no issue with it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I recall the CEO of GM- essentially saying the same. No more research into ICE, all into EV/HICE. I see no problem with no more research into ICE engines. What we have now is fine. In 10-15 years they will realize that EVs are not the future and can resume ICE research if need be. My newest ICE vehicle is twenty years old. I have no issue with it. What new research needs to be done? After 100+ years of ICE development, whats left to be improved? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 2:24:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So Hydrogen from a fuel cell or hydrogen from a pumping station? I haven't seen any hydrogen stations around these parts. It's a chicken or egg problem. ETA: I don't have any issues with burning hydrogen. Nothing burns cleaner after all. In a hydrogen ICE you'll have some burned hydrocarbon residues from oil on the cylinder walls but that's all. The oil should last about forever also. Maybe just fortify the additive package once a year. Burning hydrogen can make NOx. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 2:27:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good luck with that, lol Good luck with bucking the trend if virtually every company stops making ICEs. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 2:55:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Remember when 3D was all the rage on flat panel TVs? All the manufacturers were switching to 3D TVs. Cable companies started doing 3D programming and ALL the big movie releases had a 3D version. It was supposed to be the future.
Then the funniest thing happened, consumers were NOT buying them. This is what GM, Ford, Hyundai et al. are doing now. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:02:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah How much does that cost? $100k plus. I don't remember the exact price but it surpassed six figures. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:05:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The issue is that a a large portion of people in this country do not have a way to charge an electric vehicle at home. Let alone 2 vehicle households. Most stage 2 chargers require 50amp at 220v but this is increasing more and more, the new Ford lightning charger is 80 amps. Putting a 100 amp additional load on most houses in this country are going to be an issue. At minimum they will need a new panel. But everything back to the power source can be an issue. The even bigger issue is urban houses that do not have drive ways. On street parking and electric vehicle charging do not work. Good luck charging your car when the closest s place you can find to park is 100 yards away from your house. The alternative would be companies installing charging stations in employee parking lots. This will turn into having to pay your employer to be able to get to work. It's a feature and not a bug. They don't want private vehicle ownership for the masses. They want you in a city, living like sardines and riding mass transit. Private vehicles are for the elite to drive to their dachas. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:06:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: China is pushing EVs harder than the US. Well china is also cranking out nuclear power generation facilities like hotcakes, too.  |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:08:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Remember when 3D was all the rage on flat panel TVs? All the manufacturers were switching to 3D TVs. Cable companies started doing 3D programming and ALL the big movie releases had a 3D version. It was supposed to be the future. Then the funniest thing happened, consumers were NOT buying them. This is what GM, Ford, Hyundai et al. are doing now. People will buy them when the national average price for a gallon of gasoline surpasses $5. I don't think $10 in the next decade is unrealistic with this administrations hostile energy policies and continued destabilization in oil producing nations. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:15:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good luck with bucking the trend if virtually every company stops making ICEs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Good luck with that, lol Good luck with bucking the trend if virtually every company stops making ICEs. They won't. In the 3rd world there are many places that do not have running electricity, they are not going to get the infrastructure fairy wand (that we aren't getting either) needed just to get the basic electricity situation. Charging stations in every lot for their go karts? Literal nonsense. ICE will be around there, as gasoline can be more easily transported, and the energy density is pretty damn good. In the 3rd world (those places where they don't give a fuck about emissions), they will still have ICE vehicles, cheap new ones, and old ones. Those big automakers with their global sales, will not be stopping the manufacture of ICE vehicles for those markets where EVs won't work any time soon. They just might not make them for us.  Unless they BAN sales of ICE vehicles, or use MORE government fuckery, people here will still want them. Fo example, the HeavyDuty trucks will stay diesel/Gas for like forever, unless we're getting 11,000lb+ 400mi EVs forced on Cleetus and Co who need to tow, in the name of "Progress".  Go karts don't work for them. Neither will the "heavy duty" Hummer EV with its whopping 1,400lb payload, and super limited Tow-range along with long recharge times. Cleetus wants to tow a travel trailer in one go to a campsite. He can do that with the vehicle he owns today that's superior for his uses. He is not alone. And there are "bOoMeRs" who are genuinely uninterested in them to begin with. They likely enjoy the idea of bringing a vehicle back to their local mechanic vs bringing it to the dealer when something inevitably fails on their Maintenance FreeTM vehicle that can still have issues. Just 3x the time, 4x the cost, and they can't trust their local guy. If people in the US still want ICE vehicles, and they will (because EVs are genuinely uninteresting to a lot of people for a lot of reasons, despite what the EV fangirls want to believe), and only one maker makes them, they will make a fuckton of money. An absolute fuckton. Pure profit. They won't leave the money on the table. That is, unless they are FORCED not to, which government would neeeeeeeeeever do.  |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:18:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Difference between EV and IC vehicle people? The latter aren’t trying to demand that the former change their lifestyle or driving habits because of their feels. Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:18:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Adding plugs in parking lots isn't "Revamping our entire nation's infrastructure" jfc...  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What happens when people can't buy anything else? Revamping our entire nation's infrastructure in a couple of decades isn't as easy as many seem to think. Adding plugs in parking lots isn't "Revamping our entire nation's infrastructure" jfc... Yeah because parking lots are where people park to charge their cars at night, or to refuel during the day. And every parking lot can be revamped to add dozens of 50+ amp power plugs and all the associated infrastructure...and of course all of that can be easily paid for by the property owners. Clearly you've got this all figured out 
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:29:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Difference between EV and IC vehicle people? The latter aren’t trying to demand that the former change their lifestyle or driving habits because of their feels. Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. https://www.forbes.com/sites/pikeresearch/2020/11/04/ice-bans-begin-to-take-shape-in-the-us/ Banning the sale of new internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles is not a new concept in countries and municipalities outside of the US. Beginning in 2016, European countries and cities began to make commitments to ban the future sale of ICE vehicles. Countries like France, Norway, and the UK have all set dates for these bans, with Norway’s being the most bullish—all new car sales must be zero emissions (battery EV or fuel cell) by 2025. Several cities within Europe have announced similar bans on ICE vehicles, including Rome and Milan, which ban ICE vehicles from entering certain parts of the city. In late September 2020, California governor Gavin Newsom announced that the state will phase out the sale of new gasoline and diesel-powered cars to reduce California’s demand for fossil fuels—the first policy of this kind in the US. The executive order requires that all new cars and passenger trucks sold in California be zero emissions vehicles (ZEVs) by 2035. Plug-in hybrid EVs (PHEVs) are included under current ZEV mandate definitions, but what the exact 2035 regulation will include in terms of powertrains is not yet clear. Politicians in blue states and areas, who could get elected nationally and ram through such a mandate. Would you be against an EV-only mandate by a given date? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:29:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah because parking lots are where people park to charge their cars at night, or to refuel during the day. And every parking lot can be revamped to add dozens of 50+ amp power plugs and all the associated infrastructure...and of course all of that can be easily paid for by the property owners. Clearly you've got this all figured out Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What happens when people can't buy anything else? Revamping our entire nation's infrastructure in a couple of decades isn't as easy as many seem to think. Adding plugs in parking lots isn't "Revamping our entire nation's infrastructure" jfc... Yeah because parking lots are where people park to charge their cars at night, or to refuel during the day. And every parking lot can be revamped to add dozens of 50+ amp power plugs and all the associated infrastructure...and of course all of that can be easily paid for by the property owners. Clearly you've got this all figured out Yeah there's a lot of small businesses that aren't building go-kart charging into their lots (if they have lots to begin with). |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:39:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good luck with bucking the trend if virtually every company stops making ICEs. Not going to happen. Come back when EVs are ~25% of new car sales in the USA in a free market environment and we can reassess your scenario. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:40:04 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Remember when 3D was all the rage on flat panel TVs? All the manufacturers were switching to 3D TVs. Cable companies started doing 3D programming and ALL the big movie releases had a 3D version. It was supposed to be the future. Then the funniest thing happened, consumers were NOT buying them. This is what GM, Ford, Hyundai et al. are doing now. Exactly. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:44:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From the standpoint of a consumer, f you have a PHEV, you don't want to use gasoline unless you absolutely have to, because it costs 3x more than electricity per mile. From the standpoint of a manufacturer, the added manufacturing cost throwing in a genset will provide a lot less capability than simply adding more batteries, especially as batteries get cheaper and more energy dense. Not interested in any full EV. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:45:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well china is also cranking out nuclear power generation facilities like hotcakes, too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: China is pushing EVs harder than the US. Well china is also cranking out nuclear power generation facilities like hotcakes, too. It's simple. If you can generate your own electricity and have EVs, you're not sending a part of your GDP to some shit hole country and also be at risk of having that oil supply cut off |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:47:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not going to happen. Come back when EVs are ~25% of new car sales in a free market environment and we can reassess your scenario. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Good luck with bucking the trend if virtually every company stops making ICEs. Not going to happen. Come back when EVs are ~25% of new car sales in a free market environment and we can reassess your scenario. Norway was 54% last year and will be more this year. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:50:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The average American has a 16 mile each direction commute to work, which is doable with a 120V "trickle charger". Close to 60% of households have 2 cars. The average driver in the U.S. drives a little over 1k miles a year. I have a coworker that has a Tesla model 3, and the only charge it once a week, on a 240V charger set on one of the lower amperage settings on Sundays. They don't even bother to mess with keeping it topped off, nor do they take advantage of charging it at work. I think they put about a little less than 100 miles a week on it, knowing their commute. I have another coworker that has a BMWi3, they do sometimes charge it at work, but otherwise use a 120V trickle charger at home, a couple times a week. I would guess they put 6 miles a day on it. For the majority of people an EV is probably doable right now, and that number will increase as prices drop and 480V chargers become more common on interstate routes. I get that it is not doable for a guy in the middle of Montana or Texas, but those people are over represented here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: No electric cars will never, ever, ever work unless they have 3,000 mile ranges and can recharge in 38 seconds. Also, putting outlets at parking spaces is literally impossible so they will never work anyway. It's an insurmountable task. everyone is reaching so hard to find the extenuating circumstance where the vehicle won't work, they refuse to accept the fact it already does. there may be some changes around how travel is done, a chain of coffee shop/chargers off highway at select distances between major cities would be a superb business plan. I have a coworker that has a Tesla model 3, and the only charge it once a week, on a 240V charger set on one of the lower amperage settings on Sundays. They don't even bother to mess with keeping it topped off, nor do they take advantage of charging it at work. I think they put about a little less than 100 miles a week on it, knowing their commute. I have another coworker that has a BMWi3, they do sometimes charge it at work, but otherwise use a 120V trickle charger at home, a couple times a week. I would guess they put 6 miles a day on it. For the majority of people an EV is probably doable right now, and that number will increase as prices drop and 480V chargers become more common on interstate routes. I get that it is not doable for a guy in the middle of Montana or Texas, but those people are over represented here. You pick 2 examples of people who drive very little and that means for the majority of people it's good? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:53:05 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Norway was 54% last year and will be more this year. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Good luck with bucking the trend if virtually every company stops making ICEs. Not going to happen. Come back when EVs are ~25% of new car sales in a free market environment and we can reassess your scenario. Norway was 54% last year and will be more this year. The only reason I bought a PHEV is because of the tax credit. Straight up manipulation. I understand this. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:57:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People will buy them when the national average price for a gallon of gasoline surpasses $5. I don't think $10 in the next decade is unrealistic with this administrations hostile energy policies and continued destabilization in oil producing nations. Wrong. They buy small gas cars. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:58:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's simple. If you can generate your own electricity and have EVs, you're not sending a part of your GDP to some shit hole country and also be at risk of having that oil supply cut off Under Trump, we were net positive on energy. If we need any, get it from the Canadians. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:00:47 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Norway was 54% last year and will be more this year. Modified to in the USA. Other than young single Scandinavian women, what they do matters not to me. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:02:32 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are doing the same thing THEY ALL ARE. You do NOT have a choice anymore. By 2050 gas will be completely gone Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Buy a Ford. They are doing the same thing THEY ALL ARE. You do NOT have a choice anymore. By 2050 gas will be completely gone As much as I like the sound and rumble of an IC engine, electric is probably the future. Lots of performance and instant power band. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:03:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good luck with bucking the trend if virtually every company stops making ICEs. So then you're okay with dickheads like biden mandating that all fossil fuel vehicles are banned in 30 years? Because that's not acceptable to me in any form. Maybe we both grew up in different countries.... |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:06:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's simple. If you can generate your own electricity and have EVs, you're not sending a part of your GDP to some shit hole country and also be at risk of having that oil supply cut off If you think they (ie biden and democrats) are going to just let you get away with not paying a federal equivalent of the gasoline tax on your tesla...  Almost forgot - those high tech batteries are built and use materials that are mined in 3rd world countries. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:15:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. Ummm.... biden... AOC... pretty much every |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:53:48 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: By no market manipulation? The only reason I bought a PHEV is because of the tax credit. Straight up manipulation. I understand this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Good luck with bucking the trend if virtually every company stops making ICEs. Not going to happen. Come back when EVs are ~25% of new car sales in a free market environment and we can reassess your scenario. Norway was 54% last year and will be more this year. The only reason I bought a PHEV is because of the tax credit. Straight up manipulation. I understand this. MASSIVE market manipulation is going on in Norway. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:57:53 PM EDT
[#37]
Hydrogen is nonsense as a transportation fuel, too many logistical issues.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:58:21 PM EDT
[#38]
If you're against EV's simply because of what the Green morons in Washington are pitching, think about this side effect which you may not have considered: The faster we can relegate oil into the dustbin of history, to faster we can get the Middle East back into the dustbin of irrelevancy. All kinds of unsavory characters will be without their cash cow: Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, you name it. I will cheer the day OPEC is a non-entity that has to close up shop.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:10:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.forbes.com/sites/pikeresearch/2020/11/04/ice-bans-begin-to-take-shape-in-the-us/ Politicians in blue states and areas, who could get elected nationally and ram through such a mandate. Would you be against an EV-only mandate by a given date? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Difference between EV and IC vehicle people? The latter aren’t trying to demand that the former change their lifestyle or driving habits because of their feels. Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. https://www.forbes.com/sites/pikeresearch/2020/11/04/ice-bans-begin-to-take-shape-in-the-us/ Banning the sale of new internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles is not a new concept in countries and municipalities outside of the US. Beginning in 2016, European countries and cities began to make commitments to ban the future sale of ICE vehicles. Countries like France, Norway, and the UK have all set dates for these bans, with Norway’s being the most bullish—all new car sales must be zero emissions (battery EV or fuel cell) by 2025. Several cities within Europe have announced similar bans on ICE vehicles, including Rome and Milan, which ban ICE vehicles from entering certain parts of the city. In late September 2020, California governor Gavin Newsom announced that the state will phase out the sale of new gasoline and diesel-powered cars to reduce California’s demand for fossil fuels—the first policy of this kind in the US. The executive order requires that all new cars and passenger trucks sold in California be zero emissions vehicles (ZEVs) by 2035. Plug-in hybrid EVs (PHEVs) are included under current ZEV mandate definitions, but what the exact 2035 regulation will include in terms of powertrains is not yet clear. Politicians in blue states and areas, who could get elected nationally and ram through such a mandate. Would you be against an EV-only mandate by a given date? This just in. Democrats back stupid laws. Of course I would be against an EV only mandate. And I feel comfortable speaking on behalf of every other EV enthusiast on this board that they would be too. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:14:18 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ummm.... biden... AOC... pretty much every Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. Ummm.... biden... AOC... pretty much every No shit. Democrats say stupid things. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:16:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On average, electricity is about 3-4x cheaper per mile than gas. The Tesla Model S Plaid, a large sedan with 1000+ AWD horsepower that can beat the Bugatti Chiron in the 1/4 mile and hang with a Porsche 918 at Laguna Seca, costs the same in $ per mile to "fuel" as a car that gets 80 mpg. This is why ICE is dead. Compare the stats of Audi RS7 to the Model S Plaid... The Audi looks like a joke. As battery prices come down this will become true in all segments. 11kwh to charge for the 40 mile daily commute everyday (mine is a lot higher, but we will stick with this for comparison), at $0.27/kwh in tier 1, $0.38/kwh tier 2, $0.47/kwh tier 3, and $0.55/kwh tier 4. I dont know how they determine what tier I am in, but Tier 1 is capped at 175kwh, and I usually end up with a lot in tier 2 and 3, rarely 4. We usually use between 600 and 700 kwhs per month. So, 11kwh x 20 days (for your average 9-5er) 220kwh. Household stuff eats all of tier 1, so let's pretend I can keep the charging in tier 2. 220kwh x 0.38= 83.60 per month extra on my power bill best case. 220kwh x 0.55 tier 4= $121 extra per month My Toyota highlander hybrid gets a real world 31.2 mpg divided into 800 monthly miles gets us 25.6 gallons of gas. I just filled up yesterday 3.89, so my monthly cost is $99.74. Tell me again how electricity is so much cheaper? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:21:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a feature and not a bug. They don't want private vehicle ownership for the masses. They want you in a city, living like sardines and riding mass transit. Private vehicles are for the elite to drive to their dachas. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The issue is that a a large portion of people in this country do not have a way to charge an electric vehicle at home. Let alone 2 vehicle households. Most stage 2 chargers require 50amp at 220v but this is increasing more and more, the new Ford lightning charger is 80 amps. Putting a 100 amp additional load on most houses in this country are going to be an issue. At minimum they will need a new panel. But everything back to the power source can be an issue. The even bigger issue is urban houses that do not have drive ways. On street parking and electric vehicle charging do not work. Good luck charging your car when the closest s place you can find to park is 100 yards away from your house. The alternative would be companies installing charging stations in employee parking lots. This will turn into having to pay your employer to be able to get to work. It's a feature and not a bug. They don't want private vehicle ownership for the masses. They want you in a city, living like sardines and riding mass transit. Private vehicles are for the elite to drive to their dachas. Who is they? The companies that are trying to stay relevant and profitable? If consumers don't buy EVs, there won't be EVs. But people will, because for the average commuter they make more sense than ICE. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:29:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wrong. They buy small gas cars. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: People will buy them when the national average price for a gallon of gasoline surpasses $5. I don't think $10 in the next decade is unrealistic with this administrations hostile energy policies and continued destabilization in oil producing nations. Wrong. They buy small gas cars. Previously they did that when there weren't other options. Given the choice between a Tesla and a Toyota Yaris I think most people would pick the Tesla. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:32:09 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who is they? The companies that are trying to stay relevant and profitable? If consumers don't buy EVs, there won't be EVs. But people will, because for the average commuter they make more sense than ICE. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The issue is that a a large portion of people in this country do not have a way to charge an electric vehicle at home. Let alone 2 vehicle households. Most stage 2 chargers require 50amp at 220v but this is increasing more and more, the new Ford lightning charger is 80 amps. Putting a 100 amp additional load on most houses in this country are going to be an issue. At minimum they will need a new panel. But everything back to the power source can be an issue. The even bigger issue is urban houses that do not have drive ways. On street parking and electric vehicle charging do not work. Good luck charging your car when the closest s place you can find to park is 100 yards away from your house. The alternative would be companies installing charging stations in employee parking lots. This will turn into having to pay your employer to be able to get to work. It's a feature and not a bug. They don't want private vehicle ownership for the masses. They want you in a city, living like sardines and riding mass transit. Private vehicles are for the elite to drive to their dachas. Who is they? The companies that are trying to stay relevant and profitable? If consumers don't buy EVs, there won't be EVs. But people will, because for the average commuter they make more sense than ICE. Those manufacturers will build and sell EVs when new ICE powered vehicles are outlawed. That's where it's heading. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:39:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let me hash this out for a second. 11kwh to charge for the 40 mile daily commute everyday (mine is a lot higher, but we will stick with this for comparison), at $0.27/kwh in tier 1, $0.38/kwh tier 2, $0.47/kwh tier 3, and $0.55/kwh tier 4. I dont know how they determine what tier I am in, but Tier 1 is capped at 175kwh, and I usually end up with a lot in tier 2 and 3, rarely 4. We usually use between 600 and 700 kwhs per month. So, 11kwh x 20 days (for your average 9-5er) 220kwh. Household stuff eats all of tier 1, so let's pretend I can keep the charging in tier 2. 220kwh x 0.38= 83.60 per month extra on my power bill best case. 220kwh x 0.55 tier 4= $121 extra per month My Toyota highlander hybrid gets a real world 31.2 mpg divided into 800 monthly miles gets us 25.6 gallons of gas. I just filled up yesterday 3.89, so my monthly cost is $99.74. Tell me again how electricity is so much cheaper? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: On average, electricity is about 3-4x cheaper per mile than gas. The Tesla Model S Plaid, a large sedan with 1000+ AWD horsepower that can beat the Bugatti Chiron in the 1/4 mile and hang with a Porsche 918 at Laguna Seca, costs the same in $ per mile to "fuel" as a car that gets 80 mpg. This is why ICE is dead. Compare the stats of Audi RS7 to the Model S Plaid... The Audi looks like a joke. As battery prices come down this will become true in all segments. 11kwh to charge for the 40 mile daily commute everyday (mine is a lot higher, but we will stick with this for comparison), at $0.27/kwh in tier 1, $0.38/kwh tier 2, $0.47/kwh tier 3, and $0.55/kwh tier 4. I dont know how they determine what tier I am in, but Tier 1 is capped at 175kwh, and I usually end up with a lot in tier 2 and 3, rarely 4. We usually use between 600 and 700 kwhs per month. So, 11kwh x 20 days (for your average 9-5er) 220kwh. Household stuff eats all of tier 1, so let's pretend I can keep the charging in tier 2. 220kwh x 0.38= 83.60 per month extra on my power bill best case. 220kwh x 0.55 tier 4= $121 extra per month My Toyota highlander hybrid gets a real world 31.2 mpg divided into 800 monthly miles gets us 25.6 gallons of gas. I just filled up yesterday 3.89, so my monthly cost is $99.74. Tell me again how electricity is so much cheaper? Your electricity is crazy expensive. But even so I don't think your math is right. How'd you determine the 11kw for a 40 mile commute? Model 3 gets 5.26 miles per kw (260 mile range, 50kw pack) so you'd only need to use 8.9kw (assuming losing 15% during charging) to hit 40 miles for that commute. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 6:08:34 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your electricity is crazy expensive. But even so I don't think your math is right. How'd you determine the 11kw for a 40 mile commute? Model 3 gets 5.26 miles per kw (260 mile range, 50kw pack) so you'd only need to use 8.9kw (assuming losing 15% during charging) to hit 40 miles for that commute. A 10% cost reduction still doesn't cover the premium of an EV even after the subsidy. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 6:17:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Difference between EV and IC vehicle people? The latter aren’t trying to demand that the former change their lifestyle or driving habits because of their feels. Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. One of the posts above mine did exactly that. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 6:18:47 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your electricity is crazy expensive. But even so I don't think your math is right. How'd you determine the 11kw for a 40 mile commute? Model 3 gets 5.26 miles per kw (260 mile range, 50kw pack) so you'd only need to use 8.9kw (assuming losing 15% during charging) to hit 40 miles for that commute. Interesting questions on cost: 1) On the cost of electric power per Kw/h -- do you think the cost of electricity will go up, down, or stay the same as EV's become more common, and cause an large increase in demand for electrical power? For at least the last 8 years, I have been getting letters from my power company, stating that customers need to REDUCE our electric usage, or prices will go up, so it doesn't seem like much of a leap to say the price per Kw/h will increase because of EV's and their utilization of hundreds of additional Kw/h per customer over their pre-EV usage. 2) How much will the per-mile surcharge be for EV's -- to pay for "Road Use" taxes that EV owners currently avoid (because it is tacked onto gasoline sales -- currently in my area, $0.34/gallon)? And that per mile charge IS coming... states are already hard at work to figure out how to charge EV owners for it. Since modern EV's are all "connected" vehicles, it won't be technically hard for states to collect your miles driven directly from the EV itself, and just send you a bill. Quite similar to how the electric company bills you for Kw/h based on your meter reading. My guess is $0.01-$0.02 per mile -- to start. Not a big deal for the average driver at only $10-$20 tax per month at average mileage, but still an additional EV cost to consider. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 6:23:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the posts above mine did exactly that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Difference between EV and IC vehicle people? The latter aren’t trying to demand that the former change their lifestyle or driving habits because of their feels. Who’s demanding you change your lifestyle and driving habits? Certainly nobody in this thread. One of the posts above mine did exactly that. No it didn't. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 6:25:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like a hybrid car where the gas engine recharges the electrical batteries. Something along those lines. I realize things will have to be invented but I hope we get there someday. |
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