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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:39:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus dude. There's absolutely nothing wrong with guys in the know saying something that is UNCLASS is correct. YOU said they're "hanging their hat" but that's made up bullshit by you. They didn't endorse either, they merely said that certain osint accounts on Twitter are pretty accurate. Stop changing the argument. You have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about, and you're making a fool of yourself. Many of the mil guys there know each other irl and all are vetted as actual mil by site staff that is also mil. You're hopelessly fucking ignorant. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Rhetorically I ask, did it escape your notice that people with legit credentials deliberately discuss this stuff in areas that you do not have access to specifically to escape the kind of SNR you're bringing to the discussion? "legit intel guys" are hanging their hats and reputations on endorsing amateur twitter OSINTs; in private channels of arfcom while violating tenets of their top secret clearance ......talk about being deluded Jesus dude. There's absolutely nothing wrong with guys in the know saying something that is UNCLASS is correct. YOU said they're "hanging their hat" but that's made up bullshit by you. They didn't endorse either, they merely said that certain osint accounts on Twitter are pretty accurate. Stop changing the argument. You have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about, and you're making a fool of yourself. Many of the mil guys there know each other irl and all are vetted as actual mil by site staff that is also mil. You're hopelessly fucking ignorant. "retired mil guys" are all a sudden "legit intel guys" |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:40:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: bellingcat is also gtg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What reputable sources do you recommend? bellingcat is also gtg Where do you think this comes from? However, open source evidence exists that appears to run counter to claims of elaborate fakes and staged productions, as well as calling into question the apparent timeline of events as depicted by Russia in recent days. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:41:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "retired mil guys" are all a sudden "legit intel guys" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Rhetorically I ask, did it escape your notice that people with legit credentials deliberately discuss this stuff in areas that you do not have access to specifically to escape the kind of SNR you're bringing to the discussion? "legit intel guys" are hanging their hats and reputations on endorsing amateur twitter OSINTs; in private channels of arfcom while violating tenets of their top secret clearance ......talk about being deluded Jesus dude. There's absolutely nothing wrong with guys in the know saying something that is UNCLASS is correct. YOU said they're "hanging their hat" but that's made up bullshit by you. They didn't endorse either, they merely said that certain osint accounts on Twitter are pretty accurate. Stop changing the argument. You have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about, and you're making a fool of yourself. Many of the mil guys there know each other irl and all are vetted as actual mil by site staff that is also mil. You're hopelessly fucking ignorant. "retired mil guys" are all a sudden "legit intel guys" Who said anything about retired? |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:43:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "retired mil guys" are all a sudden "legit intel guys" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Rhetorically I ask, did it escape your notice that people with legit credentials deliberately discuss this stuff in areas that you do not have access to specifically to escape the kind of SNR you're bringing to the discussion? "legit intel guys" are hanging their hats and reputations on endorsing amateur twitter OSINTs; in private channels of arfcom while violating tenets of their top secret clearance ......talk about being deluded Jesus dude. There's absolutely nothing wrong with guys in the know saying something that is UNCLASS is correct. YOU said they're "hanging their hat" but that's made up bullshit by you. They didn't endorse either, they merely said that certain osint accounts on Twitter are pretty accurate. Stop changing the argument. You have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about, and you're making a fool of yourself. Many of the mil guys there know each other irl and all are vetted as actual mil by site staff that is also mil. You're hopelessly fucking ignorant. "retired mil guys" are all a sudden "legit intel guys" YOU said retired. We didn't. You don't know shit, and you keep digging yourself deeper. Just stop. At this point your best bet is to apologize and fade into obscurity and hope people forget about this. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:43:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you seek actual reputable open source intel, I can suggest first starting with ISW for their "Russian Offensive Campaign Assessments" that are published daily. You will find good synopsis on how everything is progressing. edit: it is actual legitimate open source intel. not twitter twat OSINTbro junk I follow ISW. Their analysis is not kind to Russia. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:43:56 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL. Edit: Never has a thread so clearly illustrated: "You get the GD you deserve." Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "legit intel guys"...... who are they? name them LOL. Edit: Never has a thread so clearly illustrated: "You get the GD you deserve." Sigh. It’s a pile of hot lettuce. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:48:03 PM EDT
[#7]
I get a daily short write up from a guy who serves with a guy who does special operations officer stuff every day and it aligns with what most of the OSINT people are saying. For that matter most of everyone aligns kn everything including most ministries and departments of defense, except of course the Russians.
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:51:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I get a daily short write up from a guy who serves with a guy who does special operations officer stuff every day and it aligns with what most of the OSINT people are saying. For that matter most of everyone aligns kn everything including most ministries and departments of defense, except of course the Russians. That sure is.... SUSPICIOUS clearly it's a conspiracy |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 9:55:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will after you tell me where the weapons of mass destruction are in Iraq? Maybe you let all the veterans who lost their limbs to IEDs for GWB know to My man! Anyone believing what comes from the TV without attempting to verify is a fool. We’ve all been played for far too long. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 7:08:51 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Threads like this are so curious. I understand there are a bunch of people that support Russia and Putin, but I can't figure out why. Why would anybody believe Russian propaganda? The same could be said about Ukraine. Their support comes from the conventional American prejudice to always favor an underdog. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 9:54:44 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The same could be said about Ukraine. Their support comes from the conventional American prejudice to always favor an underdog. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Threads like this are so curious. I understand there are a bunch of people that support Russia and Putin, but I can't figure out why. Why would anybody believe Russian propaganda? The same could be said about Ukraine. Their support comes from the conventional American prejudice to always favor an underdog. Or in this case a peaceful country invaded by a bully neighbor. Truly a mystery why people would be so prejudiced to support them lol. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 10:00:43 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or in this case a peaceful country invaded by a bully neighbor. Truly a mystery why people would be so prejudiced to support them lol. Do you think it's possible to support the people of Ukraine, who did not ask to be invaded, and the people of Russia, who did not ask to go to war and do not deserve to be punished, while simultaneously distrusting the corrupt Ukrainian government, the corrupt Russian government, and the propaganda coming out of both sides? |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 10:08:34 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you think it's possible to support the people of Ukraine, who did not ask to be invaded, and the people of Russia, who did not ask to go to war and do not deserve to be punished, while simultaneously distrusting the corrupt Ukrainian government, the corrupt Russian government, and the propaganda coming out of both sides? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Or in this case a peaceful country invaded by a bully neighbor. Truly a mystery why people would be so prejudiced to support them lol. Do you think it's possible to support the people of Ukraine, who did not ask to be invaded, and the people of Russia, who did not ask to go to war and do not deserve to be punished, while simultaneously distrusting the corrupt Ukrainian government, the corrupt Russian government, and the propaganda coming out of both sides? Never said it wasn't. Again that's why you look at the aggregate information coming out of it and use some common sense. Some things are clearly propaganda, like the ghost of Kiev. Other stuff is almost certainly not, like the massacre in bucha. Corrupt ukraine government doesn't even factor into it. I very clearly support peaceful ukranians and peaceful Russians. As I said before, people that know me better might expect me to side with Russians as that's where my actual bias would be. But that's not where the evidence points. I swear if GD was a thing in '39 half of you guys would be saying Poland was corrupt so fuck em, and we "can't really know what's happening there". |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 10:20:51 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never said it wasn't. Again that's why you look at the aggregate information coming out of it and use some common sense. Some things are clearly propaganda, like the ghost of Kiev. Other stuff is almost certainly not, like the massacre in bucha. Corrupt ukraine government doesn't even factor into it. I very clearly support peaceful ukranians and peaceful Russians. As I said before, people that know me better might expect me to side with Russians as that's where my actual bias would be. But that's not where the evidence points. I swear if GD was a thing in '39 half of you guys would be saying Poland was corrupt so fuck em, and we "can't really know what's happening there". So where we differ is our estimation of certainty of certain events. My guess would be very similar to others - the people killed in Bucha were killed at multiple different times, by multiple different parties, and for multiple different reasons. But this is what happens when you use unguided artillery in residential areas. I don't know if that makes it better or worse - these two sides can claim it was an accident, but when we blow up a hospital or a car with aid workers we have to claim it was something else because we hit exactly what we were aiming at. It's frustrating and the loss of life is needless. I just know that Ukrainian officials and journalists have openly lied (as in the case of the mobile crematoriums) or provided zero evidence (as in the case of Bucha). It should go without saying that the Russians lie, as they have a long history of doing so. But think of parallels here. Would you trust Jen Psaki to tell the truth? Even remotely? Do you think Ukraine doesn't have their own Jen Psaki? What about our own journalists, who have lied, deceived, and covered up for years? |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 10:26:31 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those threads aren't anywhere you can get at them because the torrent of idiocy in GD drove them elsewhere where there are better noise filters and better contributors. GD should probably take a break to ponder that dynamic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought about who touches the information. In RT's case, since it belongs to the Russian state, any information will pass by a censor's desk at some point, if not multiple times, between someone writing it and it being published. In the satellite imagery case, who touched that data between the photos/videos were taken and then they reached the intended audience? So, I think we are all talking about chain of custody. And, because of that, "regular dudes on the street" have to swallow any bs that's spit on them? Gee, wouldn't it be nice if there were mechanisms by which to validate information without relying on official sources? Definitely. And that's what we are discussing here. And just because sometimes there's no agreement about the information credibility, it does not mean that is it "Russian talking points" as some try to imply. If it's RT, it's literally Russian talking points. Dancing around it or glossing over that fact doesn't make it go away. You have been told a 100% truth that this is the most well documented conflict in history and you are making an active choice to ignore a wealth of high confidence OSINT work in favor of headlines that line up with what you choose to believe. If you go back, no one is questioning that RT is the Russian side, or propaganda. What is being questioned is the information presented to the American public, which also comes from very questionable sources. Therefore, as OP suggested, using RT to help figuring out where the truth really is might not be a bad idea. I haven't gone to that website yet but might take a look. The truth will be hidden somewhere between what the MSM and its cohorts have been vomiting and what Russia and China have been spitting. The difficult part is filtering the useful stuff from the trash. You are crafting a strawman from a false dichotomy that the only sources of information available are MSM and whatever its positional antithesis might be. You should not do that. I used "MSM and cohorts" as a general descriptive. I agree there are many more sources in between the two extremes. The big problem is how to find them. Even in this very website it is not easy to figure out what is real and what is not, mostly when there's a group hellbent on painting anyone and anything that do not flow with "free Ukraine!" narrative as "Russian propaganda". I read a couple posts talking about threads that try to impartially discuss what's going on using intelligence and military expertise. Where are they? Some that were started to discuss the backstage of that war were quickly trashed by that nonsensical discussion. Those threads aren't anywhere you can get at them because the torrent of idiocy in GD drove them elsewhere where there are better noise filters and better contributors. GD should probably take a break to ponder that dynamic. So, that leaves only GD, which will keep doing its "GD thing" to discuss this, since the filtered threads aren't accessible to everyone. And, for the obvious reasons, the discussions will keep going all over template. What makes me curious is why some members, usually the same ones, tend to show up in the threads that try to discuss the whys and other issues that do not go with the official "free Ukraine!" narrative and trash them with "Russian propaganda", "Putin lovers", etc. and nothing useful to contribute. That males those members no different than those fanatical leftists and just show a desperation to hide the actual truth. Let alone that their credibility is already trashed. However, for me, the worst part is that all this only diverts the attention from much worse things happening at home and if they are not fixed ASAP the US will go the same way of Ukraine, if not worse. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 10:31:56 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's at least one more possibility, Ukrainians using this to settle scores, there's factions that hate each other, could be the pro Ukraines killed the pro Russians, the pro Russia side killed the pro Ukraine side. Could be innocent bystanders caught in the fighting. Could be the Russians picked some civilians and clapped them for the hell of it. Neither one of us knows, that's for sure and probably never know. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah I already pointed out the info around those. Corroborated with sat images. Again, nobody is disputing the presence of bodies. What matters is who killed them, when, and how. Has it occurred to you that they may have been casualties of Ukrainian artillery? Casualties of both Russian and Ukrainian artillery? The bodies are there. We can see that. The details and explanations attached to those bodies are words and propaganda, much like the bombed-out building in Iraq was a "baby milk factory" after it was blown up. There's at least one more possibility, Ukrainians using this to settle scores, there's factions that hate each other, could be the pro Ukraines killed the pro Russians, the pro Russia side killed the pro Ukraine side. Could be innocent bystanders caught in the fighting. Could be the Russians picked some civilians and clapped them for the hell of it. Neither one of us knows, that's for sure and probably never know. Using civilians and POWs as shields is not new. Japs did all the time in WW II, Hamas and other terrorist organizations do it, drug cartels do it. So, it's not far fetched to think of that as a possibility. Mostly when we know whom we are dealing with. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 10:53:10 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree, our country has done some pretty atrocious things. Then again I’ve never lived in Russia. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is a pretty transparent attempt to lump all "I'm not willing to side with Ukraine or Russia in this conflict and I don't believe what the media on either side is telling us" with the "crazy Q tards" and "Alex Jones retards". Yours must also be a Shareblue shill account, this is blatant propagandizing/manipulation. Yours must also be a Shareblue shill account, this is blatant propagandizing/manipulation. One trick pony here. Just accuse everyone of being a paid shill and you don't have to engage in the argument. I engage in the argument elsewhere. On these posts you quoted I am simply addressing the propaganda technique being utilized. America is best country, America does no wrong, if you don’t like or question anything your masters do then you need to get out! Literally nobody has said anything even remotely close to this. The US does bad and retarded shit all the time, but nowhere near as bad and retarded as Russia. I disagree, our country has done some pretty atrocious things. Then again I’ve never lived in Russia. I don't recall Russia leaving Afghanistan with its legs between the tails and giving away billions in assets to an enemy that will use it against Americans. Not that Russia had a stellar performance there, but what the US did surely beat anything else in History. I also do not recall Russia opening its borders to millions of illegals and funding them, motivating even more to invade, and in the meantime screw its own citizens even more in the process. Granted, Russians are already screwed by their government. However, the US governments is winning the race in terms of screwing up its own country and citizens. I don't live in Russia, but do not imagine its government sponsoring and supporting internal terrorist organizations like antifa and blm that vandalize cities and murder completely unpunished across the whole country in order to push the government's agendas. Has Russia been using the KGB or some other alike organizations to do similar things there? So, in terms of "doing retarded things", don't count the race winner yet. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:20:20 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not advocating for it but I understand how a military might look at that 40 year old civilian as a future threat he is permitted to return to Ukrainian government because of the policy of the Ukrainian government. The war crimes here will in all likelihood never be addressed much less prosecuted unless the Russian government collapses. That is a clear measure of their resolve and one that needs to be understood by the rest of the world. I do look at this as a clear indication that the Russian government and the Russian military command have abandoned any concept of legal warfare and will be returning to the dark roots of warfare to break the UA, the Ukrainian government, and the Ukrainian people. The world either needs to acknowledge they really meant never again and get serious, or our grandchildren will be reading about second Holocaust. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Military aged males aren’t combatants unless engaged in certain activities, enrolled, enlisted or commissioned in certain groups or uniformed. Killing a 40 year old man in civilian clothing who is standing in his yard is almost certainly a war crime. I’m not advocating for it but I understand how a military might look at that 40 year old civilian as a future threat he is permitted to return to Ukrainian government because of the policy of the Ukrainian government. The war crimes here will in all likelihood never be addressed much less prosecuted unless the Russian government collapses. That is a clear measure of their resolve and one that needs to be understood by the rest of the world. I do look at this as a clear indication that the Russian government and the Russian military command have abandoned any concept of legal warfare and will be returning to the dark roots of warfare to break the UA, the Ukrainian government, and the Ukrainian people. The world either needs to acknowledge they really meant never again and get serious, or our grandchildren will be reading about second Holocaust. Here's a scenario: Let's not forget how the Ukrainian government itself boasted about the large number of civilians taking arms, supplied by the government itself, to go defend against the Russians. There were also lots of photos and video footage showing civilians attacking Russian convoys. In most cases, the only thing they used as a mark was an armband over their plain clothes. In this scenario, if several of those armed civilians get mixed up with non-armed ones to use them as cover, who is at fault if Russians light them up? Then Ukrainians and their propaganda later on advertise that as Russians killing "innocent civilians". So, considering how all sides lie through their teeth, I do not discard the scenario above as a possibility. Mostly when considering who is backing Ukraine. Therefore, for me, the jury is still out on that massacre's real culprits. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:49:01 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So where we differ is our estimation of certainty of certain events. My guess would be very similar to others - the people killed in Bucha were killed at multiple different times, by multiple different parties, and for multiple different reasons. But this is what happens when you use unguided artillery in residential areas. I don't know if that makes it better or worse - these two sides can claim it was an accident, but when we blow up a hospital or a car with aid workers we have to claim it was something else because we hit exactly what we were aiming at. It's frustrating and the loss of life is needless. I just know that Ukrainian officials and journalists have openly lied (as in the case of the mobile crematoriums) or provided zero evidence (as in the case of Bucha). It should go without saying that the Russians lie, as they have a long history of doing so. But think of parallels here. Would you trust Jen Psaki to tell the truth? Even remotely? Do you think Ukraine doesn't have their own Jen Psaki? What about our own journalists, who have lied, deceived, and covered up for years? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Never said it wasn't. Again that's why you look at the aggregate information coming out of it and use some common sense. Some things are clearly propaganda, like the ghost of Kiev. Other stuff is almost certainly not, like the massacre in bucha. Corrupt ukraine government doesn't even factor into it. I very clearly support peaceful ukranians and peaceful Russians. As I said before, people that know me better might expect me to side with Russians as that's where my actual bias would be. But that's not where the evidence points. I swear if GD was a thing in '39 half of you guys would be saying Poland was corrupt so fuck em, and we "can't really know what's happening there". So where we differ is our estimation of certainty of certain events. My guess would be very similar to others - the people killed in Bucha were killed at multiple different times, by multiple different parties, and for multiple different reasons. But this is what happens when you use unguided artillery in residential areas. I don't know if that makes it better or worse - these two sides can claim it was an accident, but when we blow up a hospital or a car with aid workers we have to claim it was something else because we hit exactly what we were aiming at. It's frustrating and the loss of life is needless. I just know that Ukrainian officials and journalists have openly lied (as in the case of the mobile crematoriums) or provided zero evidence (as in the case of Bucha). It should go without saying that the Russians lie, as they have a long history of doing so. But think of parallels here. Would you trust Jen Psaki to tell the truth? Even remotely? Do you think Ukraine doesn't have their own Jen Psaki? What about our own journalists, who have lied, deceived, and covered up for years? You're wrong. There is a ton of evidence surrounding bucha. It's been mentioned before. Unguided artillery doesn't tie people's hands behind their backs and shoot them in the head, torture them, and rape them. There's plenty to be skeptical about, and plenty of other events with enough evidence to make a reasonable conclusion about. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:50:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, that leaves only GD, which will keep doing its "GD thing" to discuss this, since the filtered threads aren't accessible to everyone. And, for the obvious reasons, the discussions will keep going all over template. What makes me curious is why some members, usually the same ones, tend to show up in the threads that try to discuss the whys and other issues that do not go with the official "free Ukraine!" narrative and trash them with "Russian propaganda", "Putin lovers", etc. and nothing useful to contribute. That males those members no different than those fanatical leftists and just show a desperation to hide the actual truth. Let Allie that their credibility is already trashed. However, for me, the worst part is that all this only diverts the attention from much worse things happening at home and if they are not fixed ASAP the US will go the same way of Ukraine, if not worse. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought about who touches the information. In RT's case, since it belongs to the Russian state, any information will pass by a censor's desk at some point, if not multiple times, between someone writing it and it being published. In the satellite imagery case, who touched that data between the photos/videos were taken and then they reached the intended audience? So, I think we are all talking about chain of custody. And, because of that, "regular dudes on the street" have to swallow any bs that's spit on them? Gee, wouldn't it be nice if there were mechanisms by which to validate information without relying on official sources? Definitely. And that's what we are discussing here. And just because sometimes there's no agreement about the information credibility, it does not mean that is it "Russian talking points" as some try to imply. If it's RT, it's literally Russian talking points. Dancing around it or glossing over that fact doesn't make it go away. You have been told a 100% truth that this is the most well documented conflict in history and you are making an active choice to ignore a wealth of high confidence OSINT work in favor of headlines that line up with what you choose to believe. If you go back, no one is questioning that RT is the Russian side, or propaganda. What is being questioned is the information presented to the American public, which also comes from very questionable sources. Therefore, as OP suggested, using RT to help figuring out where the truth really is might not be a bad idea. I haven't gone to that website yet but might take a look. The truth will be hidden somewhere between what the MSM and its cohorts have been vomiting and what Russia and China have been spitting. The difficult part is filtering the useful stuff from the trash. You are crafting a strawman from a false dichotomy that the only sources of information available are MSM and whatever its positional antithesis might be. You should not do that. I used "MSM and cohorts" as a general descriptive. I agree there are many more sources in between the two extremes. The big problem is how to find them. Even in this very website it is not easy to figure out what is real and what is not, mostly when there's a group hellbent on painting anyone and anything that do not flow with "free Ukraine!" narrative as "Russian propaganda". I read a couple posts talking about threads that try to impartially discuss what's going on using intelligence and military expertise. Where are they? Some that were started to discuss the backstage of that war were quickly trashed by that nonsensical discussion. Those threads aren't anywhere you can get at them because the torrent of idiocy in GD drove them elsewhere where there are better noise filters and better contributors. GD should probably take a break to ponder that dynamic. So, that leaves only GD, which will keep doing its "GD thing" to discuss this, since the filtered threads aren't accessible to everyone. And, for the obvious reasons, the discussions will keep going all over template. What makes me curious is why some members, usually the same ones, tend to show up in the threads that try to discuss the whys and other issues that do not go with the official "free Ukraine!" narrative and trash them with "Russian propaganda", "Putin lovers", etc. and nothing useful to contribute. That males those members no different than those fanatical leftists and just show a desperation to hide the actual truth. Let Allie that their credibility is already trashed. However, for me, the worst part is that all this only diverts the attention from much worse things happening at home and if they are not fixed ASAP the US will go the same way of Ukraine, if not worse. It's because you guys ignore the evidence that's staring you in your face. Just like leftists. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:50:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: You know a couple of expats so you’re telling someone with a Russian spouse about Russia? That fact does not make her alone a reliable unbiased source. Have you talked with family members and acquaintances to cross check? Me talking with my acquaintances and friends from there is very far from a scientific research. However, it gave me some good pointers. For example, my Ukrainian friend gave me specific examples of his experience that made him decide to move away. Others might think that was acceptable. Others might be involved in some of the scams and be "outraged" about him moving away (one of his examples, and last straw, was his car being "kidnapped" and the criminals demanding a ransom to tell where the car was. During the process he found out that the "kidnappers" were officers of the local police.). Is this enough to form a full scenario? No. However, Reading several articles about the local corruption, plus who backs the Ukrainian government gives a pretty good idea of what's gong on there. Quoted: Putin told you why. We’re you not listening? They attacked because they don’t believe Ukraine is a legitimate nation and believe it belongs to them. I do not recall this was his official excuse. Didn't he say that he wanted to remove the corrupt government? That did not read as "Ukraine is not a legitimate nation". I understood that as "I want to replace Ukrainian's pro-west puppet government with my own puppet government". Ukraine would still be a buffer state. As a comparison, do you think North Korea is independent or a Chinese puppet? What do you think will happen if the US pulls there the stunt that the turd did in 2014 in Ukraine? On a side note, I'm not aware that any powerful nation in History ever cared about "legitimate nation" when pursuing its own interests. Yeah, two wrongs do not make one right. However, there's also that "throw the first stone" and "having glass roofs" things. So, all this "outrage" is a fabricated thing used to keep the feeble minds distracted from our own much worse internal problems. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:51:14 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Using civilians and POWs as shields is not new. Japs did all the time in WW II, Hamas and other terrorist organizations do it, drug cartels do it. So, it's not far fetched to think of that as a possibility. Mostly when we know whom we are dealing with. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah I already pointed out the info around those. Corroborated with sat images. Again, nobody is disputing the presence of bodies. What matters is who killed them, when, and how. Has it occurred to you that they may have been casualties of Ukrainian artillery? Casualties of both Russian and Ukrainian artillery? The bodies are there. We can see that. The details and explanations attached to those bodies are words and propaganda, much like the bombed-out building in Iraq was a "baby milk factory" after it was blown up. There's at least one more possibility, Ukrainians using this to settle scores, there's factions that hate each other, could be the pro Ukraines killed the pro Russians, the pro Russia side killed the pro Ukraine side. Could be innocent bystanders caught in the fighting. Could be the Russians picked some civilians and clapped them for the hell of it. Neither one of us knows, that's for sure and probably never know. Using civilians and POWs as shields is not new. Japs did all the time in WW II, Hamas and other terrorist organizations do it, drug cartels do it. So, it's not far fetched to think of that as a possibility. Mostly when we know whom we are dealing with. Well civilians happen to you know...live there. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:55:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't recall Russia leaving Afghanistan with its legs between the tails and giving away billions in assets to an enemy that will use it against Americans. Not that Russia had a stellar performance there, but what the US did surely beat anything else in History. I also do not recall Russia opening its borders to millions of illegals and funding them, motivating even more to invade, and in the meantime screw its own citizens even more in the process. Granted, Russians are already screwed by their government. However, the US governments is winning the race in terms of screwing up its own country and citizens. I don't live in Russia, but do not imagine its government sponsoring and supporting internal terrorist organizations like antifa and blm that vandalize cities and murder completely unpunished across the whole country in order to push the government's agendas. Has Russia been using the KGB or some other alike organizations to do similar things there? So, in terms of "doing retarded things", don't count the race winner yet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is a pretty transparent attempt to lump all "I'm not willing to side with Ukraine or Russia in this conflict and I don't believe what the media on either side is telling us" with the "crazy Q tards" and "Alex Jones retards". Yours must also be a Shareblue shill account, this is blatant propagandizing/manipulation. Yours must also be a Shareblue shill account, this is blatant propagandizing/manipulation. One trick pony here. Just accuse everyone of being a paid shill and you don't have to engage in the argument. I engage in the argument elsewhere. On these posts you quoted I am simply addressing the propaganda technique being utilized. America is best country, America does no wrong, if you don’t like or question anything your masters do then you need to get out! Literally nobody has said anything even remotely close to this. The US does bad and retarded shit all the time, but nowhere near as bad and retarded as Russia. I disagree, our country has done some pretty atrocious things. Then again I’ve never lived in Russia. I don't recall Russia leaving Afghanistan with its legs between the tails and giving away billions in assets to an enemy that will use it against Americans. Not that Russia had a stellar performance there, but what the US did surely beat anything else in History. I also do not recall Russia opening its borders to millions of illegals and funding them, motivating even more to invade, and in the meantime screw its own citizens even more in the process. Granted, Russians are already screwed by their government. However, the US governments is winning the race in terms of screwing up its own country and citizens. I don't live in Russia, but do not imagine its government sponsoring and supporting internal terrorist organizations like antifa and blm that vandalize cities and murder completely unpunished across the whole country in order to push the government's agendas. Has Russia been using the KGB or some other alike organizations to do similar things there? So, in terms of "doing retarded things", don't count the race winner yet. So so so wrong. You are ignorant of history and current events. Ask a Russian what they think of Hatch living in Russia. Russia has a huge immigration problem. I went into combat as a pogue in 08 with better equipment than the 2022 Russian infantry has. Hell I trained with better equipment as a pogue. I had better equipment as an infantryman in 2000 too, unsurprisingly. The Russian army is treated like shit. It's not surprising that these guys treat everyone else like shit too. Stalin's purges. The holodomor. Current restrictions and oppression by their government. Nothing we've done is even in the same ballpark, and I'm sick of people saying we're just as bad. It's intellectually dishonest. Oh and if you don't remember Russia leaving Afghanistan with their tail between their legs then you are even more ignorant of history than I suspected. At least the other guys knew when to shut up and stop making a fool of himself. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:56:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's a scenario: Let's not forget how the Ukrainian government itself boasted about the large number of civilians taking arms, supplied by the government itself, to go defend against the Russians. There were also lots of photos and video footage showing civilians attacking Russian convoys. In most cases, the only thing they used as a mark was an armband over their plain clothes. In this scenario, if several of those armed civilians get mixed up with non-armed ones to use them as cover, who is at fault if Russians light them up? Then Ukrainians and their propaganda later on advertise that as Russians killing "innocent civilians". So, considering how all sides lie through their teeth, I do not discard the scenario above as a possibility. Mostly when considering who is backing Ukraine. Therefore, for me, the jury is still out on that massacre's real culprits. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Military aged males aren’t combatants unless engaged in certain activities, enrolled, enlisted or commissioned in certain groups or uniformed. Killing a 40 year old man in civilian clothing who is standing in his yard is almost certainly a war crime. I’m not advocating for it but I understand how a military might look at that 40 year old civilian as a future threat he is permitted to return to Ukrainian government because of the policy of the Ukrainian government. The war crimes here will in all likelihood never be addressed much less prosecuted unless the Russian government collapses. That is a clear measure of their resolve and one that needs to be understood by the rest of the world. I do look at this as a clear indication that the Russian government and the Russian military command have abandoned any concept of legal warfare and will be returning to the dark roots of warfare to break the UA, the Ukrainian government, and the Ukrainian people. The world either needs to acknowledge they really meant never again and get serious, or our grandchildren will be reading about second Holocaust. Here's a scenario: Let's not forget how the Ukrainian government itself boasted about the large number of civilians taking arms, supplied by the government itself, to go defend against the Russians. There were also lots of photos and video footage showing civilians attacking Russian convoys. In most cases, the only thing they used as a mark was an armband over their plain clothes. In this scenario, if several of those armed civilians get mixed up with non-armed ones to use them as cover, who is at fault if Russians light them up? Then Ukrainians and their propaganda later on advertise that as Russians killing "innocent civilians". So, considering how all sides lie through their teeth, I do not discard the scenario above as a possibility. Mostly when considering who is backing Ukraine. Therefore, for me, the jury is still out on that massacre's real culprits. When you're country is invaded, you have anyone fight who is able. I'm sure the bodies of naked women and children were fighters right? Jesus fucking Christ the mental gymnastics you fools go through is pure insanity. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:58:02 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That fact does not make her alone a reliable unbiased source. Have you talked with family members and acquaintances to cross check? Me talking with my acquaintances and friends from there is very far from a scientific research. However, it gave me some good pointers. For example, my Ukrainian friend gave me specific examples of his experience that made him decide to move away. Others might think that was acceptable. Others might be involved in some of the scams and be "outraged" about him moving away (one of his examples, and last straw, was his car being "kidnapped" and the criminals demanding a ransom to tell where the car was. During the process he found out that the "kidnappers" were officers of the local police.). Is this enough to form a full scenario? No. However, Reading several articles about the local corruption, plus who backs the Ukrainian government gives a pretty good idea of what's gong on there. I do not recall this was his official excuse. Didn't he say that he wanted to remove the corrupt government? That did not read as "Ukraine is not a legitimate nation". I understood that as "I want to replace Ukrainian's pro-west puppet government with my own puppet government". Ukraine would still be a buffer state. As a comparison, do you think North Korea is independent or a Chinese puppet? What do you think will happen if the US pulls there the stunt that the turd did in 2014 in Ukraine? On a side note, I'm not aware that any powerful nation in History ever cared about "legitimate nation" when pursuing its own interests. Yeah, two wrongs do not make one right. However, there's also that "throw the first stone" and "having glass roofs" things. So, all this "outrage" is a fabricated thing used to keep the feeble minds distracted from our own much worse internal problems. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You know a couple of expats so you’re telling someone with a Russian spouse about Russia? That fact does not make her alone a reliable unbiased source. Have you talked with family members and acquaintances to cross check? Me talking with my acquaintances and friends from there is very far from a scientific research. However, it gave me some good pointers. For example, my Ukrainian friend gave me specific examples of his experience that made him decide to move away. Others might think that was acceptable. Others might be involved in some of the scams and be "outraged" about him moving away (one of his examples, and last straw, was his car being "kidnapped" and the criminals demanding a ransom to tell where the car was. During the process he found out that the "kidnappers" were officers of the local police.). Is this enough to form a full scenario? No. However, Reading several articles about the local corruption, plus who backs the Ukrainian government gives a pretty good idea of what's gong on there. Quoted: Putin told you why. We’re you not listening? They attacked because they don’t believe Ukraine is a legitimate nation and believe it belongs to them. I do not recall this was his official excuse. Didn't he say that he wanted to remove the corrupt government? That did not read as "Ukraine is not a legitimate nation". I understood that as "I want to replace Ukrainian's pro-west puppet government with my own puppet government". Ukraine would still be a buffer state. As a comparison, do you think North Korea is independent or a Chinese puppet? What do you think will happen if the US pulls there the stunt that the turd did in 2014 in Ukraine? On a side note, I'm not aware that any powerful nation in History ever cared about "legitimate nation" when pursuing its own interests. Yeah, two wrongs do not make one right. However, there's also that "throw the first stone" and "having glass roofs" things. So, all this "outrage" is a fabricated thing used to keep the feeble minds distracted from our own much worse internal problems. I talk with Russians in Russia on a regular basis. Do you? They all think people with your line of thinking are useful idiots too and are shocked Americans can be so gullible. Fabricated outrage. FML. How do you even debate this idiocy. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 11:58:16 AM EDT
[#26]
An armband is all that is required by the laws of war.
Are you defending Russia because the GRU has video of you engaged in buggery? It’s unlikely maybe, but possible, and we will never know. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:12:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I get a daily short write up from a guy who serves with a guy who does special operations officer stuff every day and it aligns with what most of the OSINT people are saying. For that matter most of everyone aligns kn everything including most ministries and departments of defense, except of course the Russians. So your "intel" is stuff from a guy from a guy? I totally trust that. I mean, I had a close friend who was with a JSOTF and served as an officer with a SFG in Iraq calling me on a SAT phone to check in now and then, but he wouldn't and couldn't tell me anything really meaningful other than "I'm kicking doors in in contested areas with an MP5, going after the deck of cards with a fucking 9mm I can't fucking believe this shit". I saw an article today that said the German and UK intelligence services have verified "from no less than three different people" that radio transmissions from Bucha indicate that the Russians and Wagner Group mercenaries were discussing how they interrogated and then killed civilians, as well as talking about shooting a civilian on their bicycle. Conveniently, that goes along with a pic distributed by the media showing the dead person on their bike laying in the street. What a shit show. I have questions as should anyone with a clear head. 1) If the Russians really are doing shit like this, do you REALLY think they would be just yammering on and describing their war crimes in detail on an open radio channel???? That makes ZERO sense to anyone with more than two brain cells. Either the report is fabricated (NOTE, I did NOT say the massacre was fabricated, I proposed that the REPORT of RADIO TRANMISSIONS ADMITTED TO IT, MAY be fabricated) or they are goading the West into some sort of response. 2) The intel agencies who are currently taking the lead in "verifying" these war crimes are the same ones who fabricated and back channeled to the US the "evidence" of "Russian collusion" against Trump including the "Piss Dossier". These intel agencies have ruined any legitimacy they might have had IMO. Regardless, I'm not committing to a position (nor would I commit to any kind of a response) based on these "reports". Again, for clarity for the simple, binary minded: I don't doubt a bunch of civilians were killed. What I am in doubt about is the circumstances and details. War is hell and innocent Ukrainians are paying a heavy and horrible price. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:13:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That fact does not make her alone a reliable unbiased source. Have you talked with family members and acquaintances to cross check? Me talking with my acquaintances and friends from there is very far from a scientific research. However, it gave me some good pointers. For example, my Ukrainian friend gave me specific examples of his experience that made him decide to move away. Others might think that was acceptable. Others might be involved in some of the scams and be "outraged" about him moving away (one of his examples, and last straw, was his car being "kidnapped" and the criminals demanding a ransom to tell where the car was. During the process he found out that the "kidnappers" were officers of the local police.). Is this enough to form a full scenario? No. However, Reading several articles about the local corruption, plus who backs the Ukrainian government gives a pretty good idea of what's gong on there. Quote HistoryQuoted: That fact does not make her alone a reliable unbiased source. Have you talked with family members and acquaintances to cross check? Me talking with my acquaintances and friends from there is very far from a scientific research. However, it gave me some good pointers. For example, my Ukrainian friend gave me specific examples of his experience that made him decide to move away. Others might think that was acceptable. Others might be involved in some of the scams and be "outraged" about him moving away (one of his examples, and last straw, was his car being "kidnapped" and the criminals demanding a ransom to tell where the car was. During the process he found out that the "kidnappers" were officers of the local police.). Is this enough to form a full scenario? No. However, Reading several articles about the local corruption, plus who backs the Ukrainian government gives a pretty good idea of what's gong on there. Russia is the most corrupt nation in Europe and it isn’t even close. They are upset that they lost their last puppet due to a popular uprising after he rigged an election. The famous corruption you heard about with US democrats and Ukrainian oil companies? That was the payoff for the west preventing Ukraine from resisting Russian invasion. The oil that paid Hunter Biden and the big guy was on ground Russia took over. So while Ukraine is the third most corrupt government in Europe, you’re making excuses for the most corrupt government. I do not recall this was his official excuse. Didn't he say that he wanted to remove the corrupt government? That did not read as "Ukraine is not a legitimate nation". I understood that as "I want to replace Ukrainian's pro-west puppet government with my own puppet government". Ukraine would still be a buffer state. As a comparison, do you think North Korea is independent or a Chinese puppet? What do you think will happen if the US pulls there the stunt that the turd did in 2014 in Ukraine? On a side note, I'm not aware that any powerful nation in History ever cared about "legitimate nation" when pursuing its own interests. Yeah, two wrongs do not make one right. However, there's also that "throw the first stone" and "having glass roofs" things. So, all this "outrage" is a fabricated thing used to keep the feeble minds distracted from our own much worse internal problems. Re-read Putin and Russian statements. They don’t just believe that the government of Ukraine is illegitimate they believe it’s national identity and language are as well. The fight here is to maintain the post 1945 order, where wars of conquest and genocide are illegal. Do you think they should be legal? |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:14:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An armband is all that is required by the laws of war. Are you defending Russia because the GRU has video of you engaged in buggery? It’s unlikely maybe, but possible, and we will never know. Read my post again: civilians wearing plain clothes, some of them with armed bands, mixed up and coming towards you. What do you do? Also, arm bands and clothes are easily removed for photo ops. Dead do not talk (but vote democrat). |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:14:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or in this case a peaceful country invaded by a bully neighbor. Truly a mystery why people would be so prejudiced to support them lol. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Threads like this are so curious. I understand there are a bunch of people that support Russia and Putin, but I can't figure out why. Why would anybody believe Russian propaganda? The same could be said about Ukraine. Their support comes from the conventional American prejudice to always favor an underdog. Or in this case a peaceful country invaded by a bully neighbor. Truly a mystery why people would be so prejudiced to support them lol. Here's the binary choice again. The truth is, Ukraine has for a long time been actively subverting Russia and Russian interests in the Donbass and probably cross-border. The US, EU, and various NGOs have been running an active "regime change" operation against Russia, from Ukrainian territory, with Ukrainian help, for a decade. That's what this war is actually about. It's much more complicated than "big bad bully Russia beating up peaceful Ukraine". LOL. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:15:28 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never said it wasn't. Again that's why you look at the aggregate information coming out of it and use some common sense. Some things are clearly propaganda, like the ghost of Kiev. Other stuff is almost certainly not, like the massacre in bucha. Corrupt ukraine government doesn't even factor into it. I very clearly support peaceful ukranians and peaceful Russians. As I said before, people that know me better might expect me to side with Russians as that's where my actual bias would be. But that's not where the evidence points. I swear if GD was a thing in '39 half of you guys would be saying Poland was corrupt so fuck em, and we "can't really know what's happening there". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Or in this case a peaceful country invaded by a bully neighbor. Truly a mystery why people would be so prejudiced to support them lol. Do you think it's possible to support the people of Ukraine, who did not ask to be invaded, and the people of Russia, who did not ask to go to war and do not deserve to be punished, while simultaneously distrusting the corrupt Ukrainian government, the corrupt Russian government, and the propaganda coming out of both sides? Never said it wasn't. Again that's why you look at the aggregate information coming out of it and use some common sense. Some things are clearly propaganda, like the ghost of Kiev. Other stuff is almost certainly not, like the massacre in bucha. Corrupt ukraine government doesn't even factor into it. I very clearly support peaceful ukranians and peaceful Russians. As I said before, people that know me better might expect me to side with Russians as that's where my actual bias would be. But that's not where the evidence points. I swear if GD was a thing in '39 half of you guys would be saying Poland was corrupt so fuck em, and we "can't really know what's happening there". Love this. You agree with the rational concept, then throw it in the trash to defend the Binary Choice again. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:19:45 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So your "intel" is stuff from a guy from a guy? I totally trust that. I mean, I had a close friend who was with a JSOTF and served as an officer with a SFG in Iraq calling me on a SAT phone to check in now and then, but he wouldn't and couldn't tell me anything really meaningful other than "I'm kicking doors in in contested areas with an MP5, going after the deck of cards with a fucking 9mm I can't fucking believe this shit". Quote HistoryQuoted: So your "intel" is stuff from a guy from a guy? I totally trust that. I mean, I had a close friend who was with a JSOTF and served as an officer with a SFG in Iraq calling me on a SAT phone to check in now and then, but he wouldn't and couldn't tell me anything really meaningful other than "I'm kicking doors in in contested areas with an MP5, going after the deck of cards with a fucking 9mm I can't fucking believe this shit". No, that is a recap I see daily. I have other sources, and I don’t have a television so I don’t consume MSM. I saw an article today that said the German and UK intelligence services have verified "from no less than three different people" that radio transmissions from Bucha indicate that the Russians and Wagner Group mercenaries were discussing how they interrogated and then killed civilians, as well as talking about shooting a civilian on their bicycle. Conveniently, that goes along with a pic distributed by the media showing the dead person on their bike laying in the street. What a shit show. I have questions as should anyone with a clear head. 1) If the Russians really are doing shit like this, do you REALLY think they would be just yammering on and describing their war crimes in detail on an open radio channel???? That makes ZERO sense to anyone with more than two brain cells. Either the report is fabricated (NOTE, I did NOT say the massacre was fabricated, I proposed that the REPORT of RADIO TRANMISSIONS ADMITTED TO IT, MAY be fabricated) or they are goading the West into some sort of response. Russian soldiers are low status persons in an already brutal and ignorant society. I have absolutely no doubts that they will do stupid things like broadcast war crimes. Those recordings may be fabricated, and proceeding with caution makes sense, but there is no reason to doubt based on the stupidity of broadcasting in the clear. They were stupid enough to command their troops in the first place on open transmissions so there’s no level of stupidity that should surprise you. 2) The intel agencies who are currently taking the lead in "verifying" these war crimes are the same ones who fabricated and back channeled to the US the "evidence" of "Russian collusion" against Trump including the "Piss Dossier". These intel agencies have ruined any legitimacy they might have had IMO. Regardless, I'm not committing to a position (nor would I commit to any kind of a response) based on these "reports". Again, for clarity for the simple, binary minded: I don't doubt a bunch of civilians were killed. What I am in doubt about is the circumstances and details. War is hell and innocent Ukrainians are paying a heavy and horrible price. I also have doubts about intelligence agencies. You don’t need any contact with their product to see convincing evidence that Russia is committing war crimes. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:20:28 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read my post again: civilians wearing plain clothes, some of them with armed bands, mixed up and coming towards you. What do you do? Also, arm bands and clothes are easily removed for photo ops. Dead do not talk (but vote democrat). Do you have any evidence that this occurred? The Russians denied it as did all other parties. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:21:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's the binary choice again. The truth is, Ukraine has for a long time been actively subverting Russia and Russian interests in the Donbass and probably cross-border. The US, EU, and various NGOs have been running an active "regime change" operation against Russia, from Ukrainian territory, with Ukrainian help, for a decade. That's what this war is actually about. It's much more complicated than "big bad bully Russia beating up peaceful Ukraine". LOL. Russia has no legitimate interests in the Donbass and the west has not until recently wanted to eliminate Putin. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:25:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're wrong. There is a ton of evidence surrounding bucha. It's been mentioned before. Unguided artillery doesn't tie people's hands behind their backs and shoot them in the head, torture them, and rape them. There's plenty to be skeptical about, and plenty of other events with enough evidence to make a reasonable conclusion about. You're missing the point. Or maybe you're not, and this is where you veer into emotion and "common sense" from facts. I don't necessarily dispute anything you said. Whereas I say "they've both lied, so I will not automatically believe either side" you choose to say "the Russians did it, it's common sense." That's fine, I guess, but it's not evidence-based. It's been brought up before, but are you familiar with this incident? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings Of note is that the actual perpetrators immediately blamed somebody else - Sunni insurgents, a believable perpetrator. In war, we find evidence of a horrible atrocity. Somebody blames somebody. Well, that and a dollar will get you a candy bar. You might have said then "the Sunnis did it, it's just common sense, they were in Mahmudiyah at that time." I guess I don't understand why you are so sure THIS TIME when throughout history for every time the "common sense" explanation has held, there is an occurrence where the opposite is true. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:26:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So your "intel" is stuff from a guy from a guy? I totally trust that. I mean, I had a close friend who was with a JSOTF and served as an officer with a SFG in Iraq calling me on a SAT phone to check in now and then, but he wouldn't and couldn't tell me anything really meaningful other than "I'm kicking doors in in contested areas with an MP5, going after the deck of cards with a fucking 9mm I can't fucking believe this shit". I saw an article today that said the German and UK intelligence services have verified "from no less than three different people" that radio transmissions from Bucha indicate that the Russians and Wagner Group mercenaries were discussing how they interrogated and then killed civilians, as well as talking about shooting a civilian on their bicycle. Conveniently, that goes along with a pic distributed by the media showing the dead person on their bike laying in the street. What a shit show. I have questions as should anyone with a clear head. 1) If the Russians really are doing shit like this, do you REALLY think they would be just yammering on and describing their war crimes in detail on an open radio channel???? That makes ZERO sense to anyone with more than two brain cells. Either the report is fabricated (NOTE, I did NOT say the massacre was fabricated, I proposed that the REPORT of RADIO TRANMISSIONS ADMITTED TO IT, MAY be fabricated) or they are goading the West into some sort of response. 2) The intel agencies who are currently taking the lead in "verifying" these war crimes are the same ones who fabricated and back channeled to the US the "evidence" of "Russian collusion" against Trump including the "Piss Dossier". These intel agencies have ruined any legitimacy they might have had IMO. Regardless, I'm not committing to a position (nor would I commit to any kind of a response) based on these "reports". Again, for clarity for the simple, binary minded: I don't doubt a bunch of civilians were killed. What I am in doubt about is the circumstances and details. War is hell and innocent Ukrainians are paying a heavy and horrible price. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I get a daily short write up from a guy who serves with a guy who does special operations officer stuff every day and it aligns with what most of the OSINT people are saying. For that matter most of everyone aligns kn everything including most ministries and departments of defense, except of course the Russians. So your "intel" is stuff from a guy from a guy? I totally trust that. I mean, I had a close friend who was with a JSOTF and served as an officer with a SFG in Iraq calling me on a SAT phone to check in now and then, but he wouldn't and couldn't tell me anything really meaningful other than "I'm kicking doors in in contested areas with an MP5, going after the deck of cards with a fucking 9mm I can't fucking believe this shit". I saw an article today that said the German and UK intelligence services have verified "from no less than three different people" that radio transmissions from Bucha indicate that the Russians and Wagner Group mercenaries were discussing how they interrogated and then killed civilians, as well as talking about shooting a civilian on their bicycle. Conveniently, that goes along with a pic distributed by the media showing the dead person on their bike laying in the street. What a shit show. I have questions as should anyone with a clear head. 1) If the Russians really are doing shit like this, do you REALLY think they would be just yammering on and describing their war crimes in detail on an open radio channel???? That makes ZERO sense to anyone with more than two brain cells. Either the report is fabricated (NOTE, I did NOT say the massacre was fabricated, I proposed that the REPORT of RADIO TRANMISSIONS ADMITTED TO IT, MAY be fabricated) or they are goading the West into some sort of response. 2) The intel agencies who are currently taking the lead in "verifying" these war crimes are the same ones who fabricated and back channeled to the US the "evidence" of "Russian collusion" against Trump including the "Piss Dossier". These intel agencies have ruined any legitimacy they might have had IMO. Regardless, I'm not committing to a position (nor would I commit to any kind of a response) based on these "reports". Again, for clarity for the simple, binary minded: I don't doubt a bunch of civilians were killed. What I am in doubt about is the circumstances and details. War is hell and innocent Ukrainians are paying a heavy and horrible price. Or perhaps they are just that stupid and poorly trained, which based on their actions so far totally checks out. Most of these guys are from backwards villages and their training consisted of getting beaten by their "superiors" |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:27:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Putin told you why. We’re you not listening? They attacked because they don’t believe Ukraine is a legitimate nation and believe it belongs to them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That was one that we knew. How many others were censored? Again, not saying there isn't a war, but the extension of it, who is doing what, and let alone its true causes are still very far from clear. Putin told you why. We’re you not listening? They attacked because they don’t believe Ukraine is a legitimate nation and believe it belongs to them. I remember in school about that happening in 1861. Some on the same people going bat shit over Russia in the Ukraine were in the Civil War threads all in favor of the North and especially in favor of what Sherman did, |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:29:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's the binary choice again. The truth is, Ukraine has for a long time been actively subverting Russia and Russian interests in the Donbass and probably cross-border. The US, EU, and various NGOs have been running an active "regime change" operation against Russia, from Ukrainian territory, with Ukrainian help, for a decade. That's what this war is actually about. It's much more complicated than "big bad bully Russia beating up peaceful Ukraine". LOL. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Threads like this are so curious. I understand there are a bunch of people that support Russia and Putin, but I can't figure out why. Why would anybody believe Russian propaganda? The same could be said about Ukraine. Their support comes from the conventional American prejudice to always favor an underdog. Or in this case a peaceful country invaded by a bully neighbor. Truly a mystery why people would be so prejudiced to support them lol. Here's the binary choice again. The truth is, Ukraine has for a long time been actively subverting Russia and Russian interests in the Donbass and probably cross-border. The US, EU, and various NGOs have been running an active "regime change" operation against Russia, from Ukrainian territory, with Ukrainian help, for a decade. That's what this war is actually about. It's much more complicated than "big bad bully Russia beating up peaceful Ukraine". LOL. It's not a binary choice at all. Donbass IS UKRAINE. Who gives a fuck about Russian interest there? What regime change operation against Russia? You mean 2014? That concerns UKRAINE not Russia. Russia had installed a puppet the Ukrainian people didn't want. You need to read more, I posted a good article FROM A RUSSIAN SOURCE that talks about exactly what this war is about. You've been fooled. LOL. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:30:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Love this. You agree with the rational concept, then throw it in the trash to defend the Binary Choice again. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Or in this case a peaceful country invaded by a bully neighbor. Truly a mystery why people would be so prejudiced to support them lol. Do you think it's possible to support the people of Ukraine, who did not ask to be invaded, and the people of Russia, who did not ask to go to war and do not deserve to be punished, while simultaneously distrusting the corrupt Ukrainian government, the corrupt Russian government, and the propaganda coming out of both sides? Never said it wasn't. Again that's why you look at the aggregate information coming out of it and use some common sense. Some things are clearly propaganda, like the ghost of Kiev. Other stuff is almost certainly not, like the massacre in bucha. Corrupt ukraine government doesn't even factor into it. I very clearly support peaceful ukranians and peaceful Russians. As I said before, people that know me better might expect me to side with Russians as that's where my actual bias would be. But that's not where the evidence points. I swear if GD was a thing in '39 half of you guys would be saying Poland was corrupt so fuck em, and we "can't really know what's happening there". Love this. You agree with the rational concept, then throw it in the trash to defend the Binary Choice again.  The rational concept has been taken to an absurd extreme that flies in the face off ALL evidence.
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:31:04 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Threads like this are so curious. I understand there are a bunch of people that support Russia and Putin, but I can't figure out why. Why would anybody believe Russian propaganda? Can you point out the Russian and Putin supporters in this thread? Go ahead, do it. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:31:33 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His security detail sure looks like SF or contractors with their M4's https://cdni.rt.com/files/2022.04/article/624b2e8685f54055b056ca59.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd never been there before and was curious. I figured it would be a LOL like Pravda. Not really. Try this story on Bucha. Defiantly NOT what I was expecting. https://www.rt.com/russia/553288-zelensky-bucha-mass-killing/ Their world news looks better than anything in this country and the BBC, which used to have great world news, is entirely woke. His security detail sure looks like SF or contractors with their M4's https://cdni.rt.com/files/2022.04/article/624b2e8685f54055b056ca59.jpg Never known SF guys to use Holosuns |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:33:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're missing the point. Or maybe you're not, and this is where you veer into emotion and "common sense" from facts. I don't necessarily dispute anything you said. Whereas I say "they've both lied, so I will not automatically believe either side" you choose to say "the Russians did it, it's common sense." That's fine, I guess, but it's not evidence-based. It's been brought up before, but are you familiar with this incident? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings Of note is that the actual perpetrators immediately blamed somebody else - Sunni insurgents, a believable perpetrator. In war, we find evidence of a horrible atrocity. Somebody blames somebody. Well, that and a dollar will get you a candy bar. You might have said then "the Sunnis did it, it's just common sense, they were in Mahmudiyah at that time." I guess I don't understand why you are so sure THIS TIME when throughout history for every time the "common sense" explanation has held, there is an occurrence where the opposite is true. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You're wrong. There is a ton of evidence surrounding bucha. It's been mentioned before. Unguided artillery doesn't tie people's hands behind their backs and shoot them in the head, torture them, and rape them. There's plenty to be skeptical about, and plenty of other events with enough evidence to make a reasonable conclusion about. You're missing the point. Or maybe you're not, and this is where you veer into emotion and "common sense" from facts. I don't necessarily dispute anything you said. Whereas I say "they've both lied, so I will not automatically believe either side" you choose to say "the Russians did it, it's common sense." That's fine, I guess, but it's not evidence-based. It's been brought up before, but are you familiar with this incident? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings Of note is that the actual perpetrators immediately blamed somebody else - Sunni insurgents, a believable perpetrator. In war, we find evidence of a horrible atrocity. Somebody blames somebody. Well, that and a dollar will get you a candy bar. You might have said then "the Sunnis did it, it's just common sense, they were in Mahmudiyah at that time." I guess I don't understand why you are so sure THIS TIME when throughout history for every time the "common sense" explanation has held, there is an occurrence where the opposite is true. Sigh. You keep leaving out the important bits. When you look at the aggregate information, which includes: Sat pics of piles of bodies from the time of Russian occupation pics on the ground of people shot, hands tied, raped, tortures eye witness accounts intercepted comms when you take ALL THAT INFORMATION TOGETHER and THEN you apply common sense, there's really only one realistic conclusion. Everything else is a ridiculous stretch. If it was ONE piece of evidence from the above, then it should be held in question. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:35:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia is the most corrupt nation in Europe and it isn’t even close. They are upset that they lost their last puppet due to a popular uprising after he rigged an election. The famous corruption you heard about with US democrats and Ukrainian oil companies? That was the payoff for the west preventing Ukraine from resisting Russian invasion. The oil that paid Hunter Biden and the big guy was on ground Russia took over. So while Ukraine is the third most corrupt government in Europe, you’re making excuses for the most corrupt government. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That fact does not make her alone a reliable unbiased source. Have you talked with family members and acquaintances to cross check? Me talking with my acquaintances and friends from there is very far from a scientific research. However, it gave me some good pointers. For example, my Ukrainian friend gave me specific examples of his experience that made him decide to move away. Others might think that was acceptable. Others might be involved in some of the scams and be "outraged" about him moving away (one of his examples, and last straw, was his car being "kidnapped" and the criminals demanding a ransom to tell where the car was. During the process he found out that the "kidnappers" were officers of the local police.). Is this enough to form a full scenario? No. However, Reading several articles about the local corruption, plus who backs the Ukrainian government gives a pretty good idea of what's gong on there. Russia is the most corrupt nation in Europe and it isn’t even close. They are upset that they lost their last puppet due to a popular uprising after he rigged an election. The famous corruption you heard about with US democrats and Ukrainian oil companies? That was the payoff for the west preventing Ukraine from resisting Russian invasion. The oil that paid Hunter Biden and the big guy was on ground Russia took over. So while Ukraine is the third most corrupt government in Europe, you’re making excuses for the most corrupt government. So we have the most corrupt invading the third most corrupt. The third most corrupt backed by the US, which shows how bad we are in the corruption scale. And if the oil bribe was in soil taken by Russia, it helps explaining how desperate some are to take that area back. Quoted: Quoted: I do not recall this was his official excuse. Didn't he say that he wanted to remove the corrupt government? That did not read as "Ukraine is not a legitimate nation". I understood that as "I want to replace Ukrainian's pro-west puppet government with my own puppet government". Ukraine would still be a buffer state. As a comparison, do you think North Korea is independent or a Chinese puppet? What do you think will happen if the US pulls there the stunt that the turd did in 2014 in Ukraine? On a side note, I'm not aware that any powerful nation in History ever cared about "legitimate nation" when pursuing its own interests. Yeah, two wrongs do not make one right. However, there's also that "throw the first stone" and "having glass roofs" things. So, all this "outrage" is a fabricated thing used to keep the feeble minds distracted from our own much worse internal problems. Re-read Putin and Russian statements. They don’t just believe that the government of Ukraine is illegitimate they believe it’s national identity and language are as well. The fight here is to maintain the post 1945 order, where wars of conquest and genocide are illegal. Do you think they should be legal? Of course Putin wants Ukraine back under his fold. Besides a buffer state it's a big natural resources and industrialized nation that will help with the crumbling Russian's GDP (and Putin's future as well). "Illegal genocides post 1945" isn't much of a thing, isn't it? After all, commies alone murdered more than 100 million in that period, which makes what's going on in Ukraine to pale in comparison. Not that the crowd backing Ukraine cares much about that also. Just look at the "covid pandemic", "my-body-my-choice abortions", legalized drugs deaths and so on. So, neither side cares about the thousands dying there. It's small change for them and both will use it for their own benefits. Morality has been thrown out of the window by those people a very long time ago. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:36:56 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember in school about that happening in 1861. Some on the same people going bat shit over Russia in the Ukraine were in the Civil War threads all in favor of the North and especially in favor of what Sherman did, We could get into a whole thing about this but the south attacked the north. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:37:32 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never known SF guys to use Holosuns Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'd never been there before and was curious. I figured it would be a LOL like Pravda. Not really. Try this story on Bucha. Defiantly NOT what I was expecting. https://www.rt.com/russia/553288-zelensky-bucha-mass-killing/ Their world news looks better than anything in this country and the BBC, which used to have great world news, is entirely woke. His security detail sure looks like SF or contractors with their M4's https://cdni.rt.com/files/2022.04/article/624b2e8685f54055b056ca59.jpg Never known SF guys to use Holosuns Zelensky's detail is more likely to be domestic folks trained by FBI HRT or the Secret Service. We have had a strong DOJ LE assistance program operational in Ukraine since the Obama Admin. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:39:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sigh. You keep leaving out the important bits. When you look at the aggregate information, which includes: Sat pics of piles of bodies from the time of Russian occupation pics on the ground of people shot, hands tied, raped, tortures eye witness accounts intercepted comms when you take ALL THAT INFORMATION TOGETHER and THEN you apply common sense, there's really only one realistic conclusion. Everything else is a ridiculous stretch. If it was ONE piece of evidence from the above, then it should be held in question. I appreciate your willingness to be civil, something that is not common here (especially on topics like this). But we aren't going to agree. I've made my point, you've made yours. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:39:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So we have the most corrupt invading the third most corrupt. The third most corrupt backed by the US, which shows how bad we are in the corruption scale. And if the oil bribe was in soil taken by Russia, it helps explaining how desperate some are to take that area back. Quote HistoryQuoted: So we have the most corrupt invading the third most corrupt. The third most corrupt backed by the US, which shows how bad we are in the corruption scale. And if the oil bribe was in soil taken by Russia, it helps explaining how desperate some are to take that area back. You mean Ukraine wanting their soil and oil back? Yeah, you’d do the same. Of course Putin wants Ukraine back under his fold. Besides a buffer state it's a big natural resources and industrialized nation that will help with the crumbling Russian's GDP (and Putin's future as well). "Illegal genocides post 1945" isn't much of a thing, isn't it? After all, commies alone murdered more than 100 million in that period, which makes what's going on in Ukraine to pale in comparison. Not that the crowd backing Ukraine cares much about that also. Just look at the "covid pandemic", "my-body-my-choice abortions", legalized drugs deaths and so on. So, neither side cares about the thousands dying there. It's small change for them and both will use it for their own benefits. Morality has been thrown out of the window by those people a very long time ago. Don’t get confused on domestic politics. This issue stands on its own. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:39:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course Putin wants Ukraine back under his fold. So you finally come to realize this. That's good. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:41:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have any evidence that this occurred? The Russians denied it as did all other parties. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Read my post again: civilians wearing plain clothes, some of them with armed bands, mixed up and coming towards you. What do you do? Also, arm bands and clothes are easily removed for photo ops. Dead do not talk (but vote democrat). Do you have any evidence that this occurred? The Russians denied it as did all other parties. Didn't I say in the beginning it was a scenario (=hypothesis)? Of course the Russians will deny. The same way Ukrainians will keep saying it's all Russia's fault. And we know both lie. Only way to find out the truth is having an unbiased and reputable organization investigating it. Problem is, who is left out there that can be trusted? And if that organization is really unbiased and reputable, will either side allow them in the area to investigate? |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 12:41:49 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appreciate your willingness to be civil, something that is not common here (especially on topics like this). But we aren't going to agree. I've made my point, you've made yours. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sigh. You keep leaving out the important bits. When you look at the aggregate information, which includes: Sat pics of piles of bodies from the time of Russian occupation pics on the ground of people shot, hands tied, raped, tortures eye witness accounts intercepted comms when you take ALL THAT INFORMATION TOGETHER and THEN you apply common sense, there's really only one realistic conclusion. Everything else is a ridiculous stretch. If it was ONE piece of evidence from the above, then it should be held in question. I appreciate your willingness to be civil, something that is not common here (especially on topics like this). But we aren't going to agree. I've made my point, you've made yours. I cannot fathom why you guys are so willfully blind on this subject. GD believes the election was stolen with 100% sincerity with significantly less proof than we have that Russia committed these atrocities. Hell, even the most argumentative guy on your side finally admitted that "obviously Russia did it". |
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