JUst looked at RT.com, not what I was expecting. - Page 14

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - JUst looked at RT.com, not what I was expecting. (Page 14 of 19)

Posted: 4/7/2022 12:42:32 PM EDT

[#1]

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Didn't I say in the beginning it was a scenario (=hypothesis)?

Of course the Russians will deny. The same way Ukrainians will keep saying it's all Russia's fault. And we know both lie.

Only way to find out the truth is having an unbiased and reputable organization investigating it. Problem is, who is left out there that can be trusted? And if that organization is really unbiased and reputable, will either side allow them in the area to investigate?

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Read my post again: civilians wearing plain clothes, some of them with armed bands, mixed up and coming towards you. What do you do? Also, arm bands and clothes are easily removed for photo ops.

Dead do not talk (but vote democrat).

Do you have any evidence that this occurred? The Russians denied it as did all other parties.

Didn't I say in the beginning it was a scenario (=hypothesis)?

Of course the Russians will deny. The same way Ukrainians will keep saying it's all Russia's fault. And we know both lie.

Only way to find out the truth is having an unbiased and reputable organization investigating it. Problem is, who is left out there that can be trusted? And if that organization is really unbiased and reputable, will either side allow them in the area to investigate?

Look at the raw information coming out for yourself dude.

Posted: 4/7/2022 12:45:04 PM EDT

[#2]

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I cannot fathom why you guys are so willfully blind on this subject.

GD believes the election was stolen with 100% sincerity with significantly less proof than we have that Russia committed these atrocities. Hell, even the most argumentative guy on your side finally admitted that "obviously Russia did it".

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Sigh.
You keep leaving out the important bits.

When you look at the aggregate information, which includes:

Sat pics of piles of bodies from the time of Russian occupation
pics on the ground of people shot, hands tied, raped, tortures
eye witness accounts
intercepted comms

when you take ALL THAT INFORMATION TOGETHER and THEN you apply common sense, there's really only one realistic conclusion. Everything else is a ridiculous stretch. If it was ONE piece of evidence from the above, then it should be held in question.

I appreciate your willingness to be civil, something that is not common here (especially on topics like this). But we aren't going to agree. I've made my point, you've made yours.

I cannot fathom why you guys are so willfully blind on this subject.

GD believes the election was stolen with 100% sincerity with significantly less proof than we have that Russia committed these atrocities. Hell, even the most argumentative guy on your side finally admitted that "obviously Russia did it".

Most of these people are unable to see the hypocrisy of establishing an impossible burden of proof and standard of objectivity when the source is telling them something they don't want to hear, and then applying a much less stringent (or entirely nonexistent) burden of proof and standard of objectivity when the source is telling them something that they want to hear. It's utterly and completely ridiculous.

Posted: 4/7/2022 12:51:25 PM EDT

[#3]

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You mean Ukraine wanting their soil and oil back? Yeah, you’d do the same.

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So we have the most corrupt invading the third most corrupt. The third most corrupt backed by the US, which shows how bad we are in the corruption scale.
And if the oil bribe was in soil taken by Russia, it helps explaining how desperate some are to take that area back.

You mean Ukraine wanting their soil and oil back? Yeah, you’d do the same.

I meant the politicians and their sons getting the payout here in the US. Not only the oil but also the money laundering operations to take the bribes out of there.

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Of course Putin wants Ukraine back under his fold. Besides a buffer state it's a big natural resources and industrialized nation that will help with the crumbling Russian's GDP (and Putin's future as well).

"Illegal genocides post 1945" isn't much of a thing, isn't it? After all, commies alone murdered more than 100 million in that period, which makes what's going on in Ukraine to pale in comparison. Not that the crowd backing Ukraine cares much about that also. Just look at the "covid pandemic", "my-body-my-choice abortions", legalized drugs deaths and so on. So, neither side cares about the thousands dying there. It's small change for them and both will use it for their own benefits. Morality has been thrown out of the window by those people a very long time ago.

Don’t get confused on domestic politics. This issue stands on its own.

It's not possible to not get domestic politics involved when the top elements of the US government are involved in blatant corruption over there. And at the same time sinking the American nation into a similar shithole. So, both are tied together.

The problem are the priorities. Americans should be protesting and crying to get America restored, not looking mesmerized at the other side of the pond while their country sinks (fast).

Posted: 4/7/2022 12:54:42 PM EDT

[#4]

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We could get into a whole thing about this but the south attacked the north.

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I remember in school about that happening in 1861. Some on the same people going bat shit over Russia in the Ukraine were in the Civil War threads all in favor of the North and especially in favor of what Sherman did,

We could get into a whole thing about this but the south attacked the north.

Posted: 4/7/2022 12:58:21 PM EDT

[#5]

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Viewed through the lens most favorable to the south, attacking Ft. Sumter is roughly equivalent of the Cubans attacking the naval station at Guantanamo Bay.

Posted: 4/7/2022 12:59:28 PM EDT

[#6]

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I meant the politicians and their sons getting the payout here in the US. Not only the oil but also the money laundering operations to take the bribes out of there.

It's not possible to not get domestic politics involved when the top elements of the US government are involved in blatant corruption over there. And at the same time sinking the American nation into a similar shithole. So, both are tied together.

The problem are the priorities. Americans should be protesting and crying to get America restored, not looking mesmerized at the other side of the pond while their country sinks (fast).

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That was Russian money. The Russians were working with the democrats.

Posted: 4/7/2022 1:01:37 PM EDT

[#7]

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Most of these people are unable to see the hypocrisy of establishing an impossible burden of proof and standard of objectivity when the source is telling them something they don't want to hear, and then applying a much less stringent (or entirely nonexistent) burden of proof and standard of objectivity when the source is telling them something that they want to hear. It's utterly and completely ridiculous.

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Sigh.
You keep leaving out the important bits.

When you look at the aggregate information, which includes:

Sat pics of piles of bodies from the time of Russian occupation
pics on the ground of people shot, hands tied, raped, tortures
eye witness accounts
intercepted comms

when you take ALL THAT INFORMATION TOGETHER and THEN you apply common sense, there's really only one realistic conclusion. Everything else is a ridiculous stretch. If it was ONE piece of evidence from the above, then it should be held in question.

I appreciate your willingness to be civil, something that is not common here (especially on topics like this). But we aren't going to agree. I've made my point, you've made yours.

I cannot fathom why you guys are so willfully blind on this subject.

GD believes the election was stolen with 100% sincerity with significantly less proof than we have that Russia committed these atrocities. Hell, even the most argumentative guy on your side finally admitted that "obviously Russia did it".

Most of these people are unable to see the hypocrisy of establishing an impossible burden of proof and standard of objectivity when the source is telling them something they don't want to hear, and then applying a much less stringent (or entirely nonexistent) burden of proof and standard of objectivity when the source is telling them something that they want to hear. It's utterly and completely ridiculous.

That's what happens when once-reputable sources lose all their credibility. Trust isn't something that is found in supermarkets.

It gets worse when one side is backed by groups and people widely known for having no ethics and morals and being corrupt to their core, and what they want is widely known.

It gets much worse when the folks trying to figure out the truth are slandered and the folks accusing them have nothing to show but to say that it's "Russian propaganda".

So, once more:

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Posted: 4/7/2022 1:04:12 PM EDT

[#8]

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That was Russian money. The Russians were working with the democrats.

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I meant the politicians and their sons getting the payout here in the US. Not only the oil but also the money laundering operations to take the bribes out of there.

It's not possible to not get domestic politics involved when the top elements of the US government are involved in blatant corruption over there. And at the same time sinking the American nation into a similar shithole. So, both are tied together.

The problem are the priorities. Americans should be protesting and crying to get America restored, not looking mesmerized at the other side of the pond while their country sinks (fast).

That was Russian money. The Russians were working with the democrats.

So they were getting double-dips?

No wonder Putin wants a part of that pie.

Posted: 4/7/2022 1:10:10 PM EDT

[#9]

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So, that leaves only GD, which will keep doing its "GD thing" to discuss this, since the filtered threads aren't accessible to everyone. And, for the obvious reasons, the discussions will keep going all over template.

What makes me curious is why some members, usually the same ones, tend to show up in the threads that try to discuss the whys and other issues that do not go with the official "free Ukraine!" narrative and trash them with "Russian propaganda", "Putin lovers", etc. and nothing useful to contribute. That males those members no different than those fanatical leftists and just show a desperation to hide the actual truth. Let alone that their credibility is already trashed.

However, for me, the worst part is that all this only diverts the attention from much worse things happening at home and if they are not fixed ASAP the US will go the same way of Ukraine, if not worse.

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I thought about who touches the information.

In RT's case, since it belongs to the Russian state, any information will pass by a censor's desk at some point, if not multiple times, between someone writing it and it being published.

In the satellite imagery case, who touched that data between the photos/videos were taken and then they reached the intended audience?

So, I think we are all talking about chain of custody.

I always find this line of questioning information interesting because you are pretending as if you, a regular dude on the street, will actually ever have enough information about something like this to know the "truth". Newsflash: What you think you are entitled to is a fantasy. You will never be given access to classified data about this from either side. You will never see how things work behind the scenes to determine which information you are allowed to see. Your choice as a human being is either to live with the fact that you will always be partially in the dark, or continue to complain about the reality over which you have no control over. All of that wailing and gnashing of teeth to try to figure out whether the US media or the Russian media is lying to you is a stupid exercise in futility. It also doesn't matter one bit. You either agree with what Russia is doing as a human being and as an American, or you don't. Trust of media has zero to do with it. If you want to read RT so that you can see Russia's made up justification for the war, have at it. If you want to read the New York Times to see what propaganda Ukraine and the State Department is putting out to justify giving weapons to the Ukraine, have at it. The only relevant question is whether giving Ukraine weapons serves US strategic interests. You won't find the answer to that in any media source.

And, because of that, "regular dudes on the street" have to swallow any bs that's spit on them?

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if there were mechanisms by which to validate information without relying on official sources?

Definitely. And that's what we are discussing here.

And just because sometimes there's no agreement about the information credibility, it does not mean that is it "Russian talking points" as some try to imply.

If it's RT, it's literally Russian talking points. Dancing around it or glossing over that fact doesn't make it go away. You have been told a 100% truth that this is the most well documented conflict in history and you are making an active choice to ignore a wealth of high confidence OSINT work in favor of headlines that line up with what you choose to believe.

If you go back, no one is questioning that RT is the Russian side, or propaganda.

What is being questioned is the information presented to the American public, which also comes from very questionable sources.

Therefore, as OP suggested, using RT to help figuring out where the truth really is might not be a bad idea. I haven't gone to that website yet but might take a look.

The truth will be hidden somewhere between what the MSM and its cohorts have been vomiting and what Russia and China have been spitting.

The difficult part is filtering the useful stuff from the trash.

You are crafting a strawman from a false dichotomy that the only sources of information available are MSM and whatever its positional antithesis might be. You should not do that.

I used "MSM and cohorts" as a general descriptive. I agree there are many more sources in between the two extremes.

The big problem is how to find them.

Even in this very website it is not easy to figure out what is real and what is not, mostly when there's a group hellbent on painting anyone and anything that do not flow with "free Ukraine!" narrative as "Russian propaganda".

I read a couple posts talking about threads that try to impartially discuss what's going on using intelligence and military expertise. Where are they?

Some that were started to discuss the backstage of that war were quickly trashed by that nonsensical discussion.

Those threads aren't anywhere you can get at them because the torrent of idiocy in GD drove them elsewhere where there are better noise filters and better contributors. GD should probably take a break to ponder that dynamic.

So, that leaves only GD, which will keep doing its "GD thing" to discuss this, since the filtered threads aren't accessible to everyone. And, for the obvious reasons, the discussions will keep going all over template.

What makes me curious is why some members, usually the same ones, tend to show up in the threads that try to discuss the whys and other issues that do not go with the official "free Ukraine!" narrative and trash them with "Russian propaganda", "Putin lovers", etc. and nothing useful to contribute. That males those members no different than those fanatical leftists and just show a desperation to hide the actual truth. Let alone that their credibility is already trashed.

However, for me, the worst part is that all this only diverts the attention from much worse things happening at home and if they are not fixed ASAP the US will go the same way of Ukraine, if not worse.

This may come as something of a shock, but people might actually get trashed with "Russian propaganda" when they are echoing actual Russian talking points.

Posted: 4/7/2022 1:10:54 PM EDT

[#10]

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So they were getting double-dips?

No wonder Putin wants a part of that pie.

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That is a slice of Putins pie. He took Donbass and gave the democrats a cut of the action in order to block weapons sales to Ukraine.

Posted: 4/7/2022 1:12:37 PM EDT

[#11]

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That's what happens when once-reputable sources lose all their credibility. Trust isn't something that is found in supermarkets.

It gets worse when one side is backed by groups and people widely known for having no ethics and morals and being corrupt to their core, and what they want is widely known.

It gets much worse when the folks trying to figure out the truth are slandered and the folks accusing them have nothing to show but to say that it's "Russian propaganda".

So, once more:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/36058/B10D4C1D-9F1A-4BA0-89EA-036730D31BAE-230-2340960.JPG

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Sigh.
You keep leaving out the important bits.

When you look at the aggregate information, which includes:

Sat pics of piles of bodies from the time of Russian occupation
pics on the ground of people shot, hands tied, raped, tortures
eye witness accounts
intercepted comms

when you take ALL THAT INFORMATION TOGETHER and THEN you apply common sense, there's really only one realistic conclusion. Everything else is a ridiculous stretch. If it was ONE piece of evidence from the above, then it should be held in question.

I appreciate your willingness to be civil, something that is not common here (especially on topics like this). But we aren't going to agree. I've made my point, you've made yours.

I cannot fathom why you guys are so willfully blind on this subject.

GD believes the election was stolen with 100% sincerity with significantly less proof than we have that Russia committed these atrocities. Hell, even the most argumentative guy on your side finally admitted that "obviously Russia did it".

Most of these people are unable to see the hypocrisy of establishing an impossible burden of proof and standard of objectivity when the source is telling them something they don't want to hear, and then applying a much less stringent (or entirely nonexistent) burden of proof and standard of objectivity when the source is telling them something that they want to hear. It's utterly and completely ridiculous.

That's what happens when once-reputable sources lose all their credibility. Trust isn't something that is found in supermarkets.

It gets worse when one side is backed by groups and people widely known for having no ethics and morals and being corrupt to their core, and what they want is widely known.

It gets much worse when the folks trying to figure out the truth are slandered and the folks accusing them have nothing to show but to say that it's "Russian propaganda".

So, once more:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/36058/B10D4C1D-9F1A-4BA0-89EA-036730D31BAE-230-2340960.JPG

Only a fool would discount all the evidence staring them in the face just because even idiots like in that meme are smart enough to see the very obvious truth. You're not smart for ignoring the truth, just because a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Posted: 4/7/2022 1:20:24 PM EDT

[#12]

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That's what happens when once-reputable sources lose all their credibility. Trust isn't something that is found in supermarkets.

It gets worse when one side is backed by groups and people widely known for having no ethics and morals and being corrupt to their core, and what they want is widely known.

It gets much worse when the folks trying to figure out the truth are slandered and the folks accusing them have nothing to show but to say that it's "Russian propaganda".

So, once more:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/36058/B10D4C1D-9F1A-4BA0-89EA-036730D31BAE-230-2340960.JPG

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You aren't trying to figure out the truth. You are looking for things that support your worldview.

Posted: 4/7/2022 1:46:25 PM EDT

[#13]

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This may come as something of a shock, but people might actually get trashed with "Russian propaganda" when they are echoing actual Russian talking points.