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Posted: 6/10/2024 10:08:41 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As far as I know, Cameron isn't an engineer, so I take his technical assessments with the expectation that someone told him that information, not that he knows it firsthand. At least he's smart enough to hire actual engineers in the naval architecture field to do his design work. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was thinking of starting a thread about this. But Cameron is famously an enormous asshole. Focusing on the technical details though. It was an interesting story. Evidentely The Navy knew they were all dead from the SOSUS Network and the Coast Guard didn't bother asking them when they launched the rescue effort. Cameron also plans to go back to the Titanic someday to make a point that it can be visited, but not by the stupid and reckless. Theres probably a lot of people who want Stockton Rush's estate or someone to cover the cost of that rescue operation. Good luck with that. It doesn't matter if he's the king of the arseholes, James Cameron has been down to the Titanic 33 times, the dude knows his stuff. As far as I know, Cameron isn't an engineer, so I take his technical assessments with the expectation that someone told him that information, not that he knows it firsthand. At least he's smart enough to hire actual engineers in the naval architecture field to do his design work. This. Cameron is just regurgitating information that he has been told. It is like a guy sitting in his private jet watching the pilots and then claiming to be an aviation expert. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 10:10:23 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No wonder Trump gave him the Medal of Freedom, right comrade?! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Rush was a cocksucking asshole sucking his own farts who was bound and determined to scam people out of their money while risking their lives. No wonder Trump gave him the Medal of Freedom, right comrade?! wrong Rush there bro |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 10:11:47 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So for the classified stuff it gets squirrelly. If they say "our classified system detected it" they admitted they have a system they can't/shouldn't admit to because it is classified and then you've got a baseline for how sensitive it actually is. So they had to tapdance around it a bit with the media hoopla until they could get some actual evidence to show that says "yeah it got squished". SOSUS was really sensitive and that was old as shit and declassified in 1991. It helped locate where Thresher went down in the 1960s. The newer stuff has to be even more impressive. Exactly my point. Detection of a giant implosion noise = classified Detection of minute tapping noises = not classified Those are reversed if you are worried about letting others know about your capability. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 10:16:33 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: wrong Rush there bro Lol, I just assumed that Stockon Rush had wormed his way into notoriety |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 10:25:16 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't see why this is such a dramatic story. History is full of pioneers taking risks to explore. So the idiot built a sub with Flex Seal and a PS2 controller, and charged people a ton of money to take a dive. Of course there's all sorts of fuckery, regarding the story. Who really cares, other than the family of the dumbos that decided to take the dive in that can? Probably because the engineering challenges are known and predictable, so there's no real pioneering involved - just some dude trying to make money off unsuspecting people while pretending to know what he's doing. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 10:33:43 AM EDT
[#6]
“Naw, thanks, I’ll just watch these archived videos from the unmanned submersible.”
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Posted: 6/10/2024 10:39:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Even if you weren't a materials engineer, it seems like you, as a fairly intelligent passenger, might have had questions about the loud hull noises you were told to expect during the dive, like, "Are those noises coming from the carbon fiber cylinder part of the hull? If so, does that mean it is cracking? And given those cracks aren't magically fixing themselves between dives, isn't the number of cracks increasing with each dive?"
The acoustic monitoring strategy to monitor hull integrity also seemed fatally flawed. It apparently only considered the sounds observed on the current dive - not cracking (and associated reduced hull strength) from prior dives. And setting aside that issue, how was it going to save you if you were 2 miles down and it started to detect a critical hull failure? How would you have enough time to get back up, especially given that it wasn't configured to consider constant loud cracking sounds to be an issue, which prior passengers had heard. Cracking sounds as loud as firecrackers reportedly. Props to the handful of folks who were offered free or reduced priced fares and declined. Fear is a gift. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 11:24:58 AM EDT
[#8]
The lack of credible information about what really happened is now becoming increasingly unfathomable Phrasing... more like 2100-fathomable amirite |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 11:41:18 AM EDT
[#9]
I think it is sad they died, but I have zero issue with billionaires wasting their own money only to kill themselves.
I do however have issue with the millions if not more, that the US taxpayers spent on the SAR mission. IF you are wealthy enough to go on this type of adventure, then your estate should fund any and all SAR missions to recover/rescue your ignorant ass. And before we get a troll saying "What about airline travel or cruise ships..." those are regular everyday means of travel. This was an experimental high risk adventure seeking one way trip to the afterlife. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 12:32:51 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So for the classified stuff it gets squirrelly. If they say "our classified system detected it" they admitted they have a system they can't/shouldn't admit to because it is classified and then you've got a baseline for how sensitive it actually is. So they had to tapdance around it a bit with the media hoopla until they could get some actual evidence to show that says "yeah it got squished". SOSUS was really sensitive and that was old as shit and declassified in 1991. It helped locate where Thresher went down in the 1960s. The newer stuff has to be even more impressive. If the technology progressed at even a moderate pace it's insanely capable now. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 12:42:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if you weren't a materials engineer, it seems like you, as a fairly intelligent passenger, might have had questions about the loud hull noises you were told to expect during the dive, like, "Are those noises coming from the carbon fiber cylinder part of the hull? If so, does that mean it is cracking? And given those cracks aren't magically fixing themselves between dives, isn't the number of cracks increasing with each dive?" The acoustic monitoring strategy to monitor hull integrity also seemed fatally flawed. It apparently only considered the sounds observed on the current dive - not cracking (and associated reduced hull strength) from prior dives. And setting aside that issue, how was it going to save you if you were 2 miles down and it started to detect a critical hull failure? How would you have enough time to get back up, especially given that it wasn't configured to consider constant loud cracking sounds to be an issue, which prior passengers had heard. Cracking sounds as loud as firecrackers reportedly. Props to the handful of folks who were offered free or reduced priced fares and declined. Fear is a gift. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 12:44:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it is sad they died, but I have zero issue with billionaires wasting their own money only to kill themselves. I do however have issue with the millions if not more, that the US taxpayers spent on the SAR mission. IF you are wealthy enough to go on this type of adventure, then your estate should fund any and all SAR missions to recover/rescue your ignorant ass. And before we get a troll saying "What about airline travel or cruise ships..." those are regular everyday means of travel. This was an experimental high risk adventure seeking one way trip to the afterlife. This, but at this point taxpayer dollars are basically vaporware that only matters to the plebs. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 12:45:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It located K129 imploding from thousands of miles away, and supposedly that wasn't even a real SOSUS. It was a geo-technical device I think, earthquakes or underground nukes or something. If the technology progressed at even a moderate pace it's insanely capable now. It behooves you to know when someone is trying to park a dozen or so MIRVed ICBMs off your coast. Hopefully all they are going to do is sit there grooving off your rock and roll music, but if they don't... |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 1:11:34 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the big thread about this I said that if one were to go to a bunch of Hollywood producers with this story as a script before it all went down. You would have probably been laughed out of the building. So much of real life is like that. Another retired agent and I wrote a series script about a notorious cocaine dealer in New Orleans named Richard Pena. One of the people looking at it, read the scene where he nailed a guy's feet to the floor and tortured him with a blow torch for stealing coke from him and told us to take it out, "This is just too unrealistic, and it kind of sounds like you're copying Tarrantino," he said. We told him, "You know, he really did this, right? This is not fiction. This is all true." |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 1:33:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It behooves you to know when someone is trying to park a dozen or so MIRVed ICBMs off your coast. Hopefully all they are going to do is sit there grooving off your rock and roll music, but if they don't... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It located K129 imploding from thousands of miles away, and supposedly that wasn't even a real SOSUS. It was a geo-technical device I think, earthquakes or underground nukes or something. If the technology progressed at even a moderate pace it's insanely capable now. It behooves you to know when someone is trying to park a dozen or so MIRVed ICBMs off your coast. Hopefully all they are going to do is sit there grooving off your rock and roll music, but if they don't... Click To View Spoiler |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 1:59:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Cameron is just regurgitating information that he has been told. It is like a guy sitting in his private jet watching the pilots and then claiming to be an aviation expert. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was thinking of starting a thread about this. But Cameron is famously an enormous asshole. Focusing on the technical details though. It was an interesting story. Evidentely The Navy knew they were all dead from the SOSUS Network and the Coast Guard didn't bother asking them when they launched the rescue effort. Cameron also plans to go back to the Titanic someday to make a point that it can be visited, but not by the stupid and reckless. Theres probably a lot of people who want Stockton Rush's estate or someone to cover the cost of that rescue operation. Good luck with that. It doesn't matter if he's the king of the arseholes, James Cameron has been down to the Titanic 33 times, the dude knows his stuff. As far as I know, Cameron isn't an engineer, so I take his technical assessments with the expectation that someone told him that information, not that he knows it firsthand. At least he's smart enough to hire actual engineers in the naval architecture field to do his design work. This. Cameron is just regurgitating information that he has been told. It is like a guy sitting in his private jet watching the pilots and then claiming to be an aviation expert. That’s not really correct. Cameron was the owner, project manager and crewman on some of the deepest dives in history. He was heavily involved at every level and given his likely high IQ his ability to learn on the job is likely very high. I wouldn’t be so dismissive. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 2:09:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oceangate used legal chicanery to circumvent commercial vessel laws. "You're not a passenger, you're a trained mission specialist, now cough up $250k" CG arrested this guy even though he posed no danger to anyone but himself: https://www.npr.org/2023/09/07/1198252469/coast-guard-hamster-wheel-reza-baluchi-atlantic-ocean Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A tragedy that should never been allowed to happen. The submarine was uncertified. What were they supposed to do? Park a Coast Guard cutter in the harbor mouth and tell them, "if you idiots try to leave we are going to blow a hole in all your boats!?" For manifestly unsafe voyages, yes, the USCG has done this at times. While rare, they have done this. And, to the extent that other vessels are duty bound to respond to distress, it is warranted. This, however, didn't rise to that level. Oceangate used legal chicanery to circumvent commercial vessel laws. "You're not a passenger, you're a trained mission specialist, now cough up $250k" CG arrested this guy even though he posed no danger to anyone but himself: https://www.npr.org/2023/09/07/1198252469/coast-guard-hamster-wheel-reza-baluchi-atlantic-ocean It was an experimental vessel, and Oceangate described it as such to their financers/passengers. Besides, what legal prohibitions should we have regarding endeavors like this? |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 2:16:06 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 6/10/2024 2:34:43 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As far as I know, Cameron isn't an engineer, so I take his technical assessments with the expectation that someone told him that information, not that he knows it firsthand. At least he's smart enough to hire actual engineers in the naval architecture field to do his design work. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was thinking of starting a thread about this. But Cameron is famously an enormous asshole. Focusing on the technical details though. It was an interesting story. Evidentely The Navy knew they were all dead from the SOSUS Network and the Coast Guard didn't bother asking them when they launched the rescue effort. Cameron also plans to go back to the Titanic someday to make a point that it can be visited, but not by the stupid and reckless. Theres probably a lot of people who want Stockton Rush's estate or someone to cover the cost of that rescue operation. Good luck with that. It doesn't matter if he's the king of the arseholes, James Cameron has been down to the Titanic 33 times, the dude knows his stuff. As far as I know, Cameron isn't an engineer, so I take his technical assessments with the expectation that someone told him that information, not that he knows it firsthand. At least he's smart enough to hire actual engineers in the naval architecture field to do his design work. I'm not a General Motors designer but I know it's a bad idea to try pilling a semi out of the ditch with my S10. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 2:38:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It located K129 imploding from thousands of miles away, and supposedly that wasn't even a real SOSUS. It was a geo-technical device I think, earthquakes or underground nukes or something. If the technology progressed at even a moderate pace it's insanely capable now. It behooves you to know when someone is trying to park a dozen or so MIRVed ICBMs off your coast. Hopefully all they are going to do is sit there grooving off your rock and roll music, but if they don't... Click To View Spoiler Holy shit. I really need to pursue a grant for my research on time travel. It is possible and wr do it all the time. You can only travel forward, and only at the same rate as the normal passage of time. People who aren't scientists like me incorrectly call time travel "waiting". Should be good for a couple million. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 2:48:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There was so much stupid when this first came out. 1) CFRP is great in tension, when you can rely on the fiber. In compression, it's basically just glue, because limp rope is useless. 2) The hull was something like 5 or 8 inches thick. Those resins used in composites do strange things in large quantities. They exotherm; they generate their own heat, and if unchecked they'll burn themselves up. Aerospace composites are generally less than an inch thick; even highly stressed structures like wing spars might be an inch and a half thick at most. The qualification process to understand what would happen inside a structure that thick during cure would cost millions of dollars, and frankly probably would have failed because your need to get heat out of the layup to have uniform thermal profile. Even with active heating and cooling, composites suck for heat transfer and you'd never get the exotherm out of a structure that thick. That’s a good point, I didn’t realize they had made such a thick composite layup building the hull. People with no experience tend to think “thicker = stronger” when it comes to composites but that’s essentially the opposite of how it works. If you make an epoxy layup that’s several inches thick, it’s going to get so hot it’ll start smoking, it’s going to cure unevenly, and you’ll probably start to get layer separation once it is cured. In any case they couldn’t have possibly had any idea what the actual final cured strength of the hull was. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 2:56:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The navy hears all. They can classify humpbacks by their farts from 1k miles away. I called that back in the thread we made when it happened. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was thinking of starting a thread about this. But Cameron is famously an enormous asshole. Focusing on the technical details though. It was an interesting story. Evidentely The Navy knew they were all dead from the SOSUS Network and the Coast Guard didn't bother asking them when they launched the rescue effort. Cameron also plans to go back to the Titanic someday to make a point that it can be visited, but not by the stupid and reckless. Theres probably a lot of people who want Stockton Rush's estate or someone to cover the cost of that rescue operation. Good luck with that. They can classify humpbacks by their farts from 1k miles away. I called that back in the thread we made when it happened. Was it Craven's autobiography where he was mentioning they heard Scorpion implode from the other side of the Atlantic? That was in the 60's. Now, in addition to having hydrophones more places, we have signal processing that I'd not sure anyone not Claude Shannon then, could even describe. So, not surprising the Navy heard it pop. Next question from their POV is, do we talk, and if we do, how much of our (hopefully) secret capabilities will we end up revealing? |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 3:05:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Whether or not you like Cameron's politics and/or movies,... whether or not he is an Engineer. The man is smart AF and has been in the deep submergence game for decades.
He even helped design his is own sub that went to the bottom of the Marianas Trench. Dude knows his shit. And has spend a lot of time with Engineers. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 3:15:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s not really correct. Cameron was the owner, project manager and crewman on some of the deepest dives in history. He was heavily involved at every level and given his likely high IQ his ability to learn on the job is likely very high. I wouldn’t be so dismissive. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was thinking of starting a thread about this. But Cameron is famously an enormous asshole. Focusing on the technical details though. It was an interesting story. Evidentely The Navy knew they were all dead from the SOSUS Network and the Coast Guard didn't bother asking them when they launched the rescue effort. Cameron also plans to go back to the Titanic someday to make a point that it can be visited, but not by the stupid and reckless. Theres probably a lot of people who want Stockton Rush's estate or someone to cover the cost of that rescue operation. Good luck with that. It doesn't matter if he's the king of the arseholes, James Cameron has been down to the Titanic 33 times, the dude knows his stuff. As far as I know, Cameron isn't an engineer, so I take his technical assessments with the expectation that someone told him that information, not that he knows it firsthand. At least he's smart enough to hire actual engineers in the naval architecture field to do his design work. This. Cameron is just regurgitating information that he has been told. It is like a guy sitting in his private jet watching the pilots and then claiming to be an aviation expert. That’s not really correct. Cameron was the owner, project manager and crewman on some of the deepest dives in history. He was heavily involved at every level and given his likely high IQ his ability to learn on the job is likely very high. I wouldn’t be so dismissive. He may be well versed in the industry, but he is no SME in the area of composites or pressure vessels. The only reason 60 minutes has him on is because he's James Cameron. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 3:24:52 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit. I really need to pursue a grant for my research on time travel. It is possible and wr do it all the time. You can only travel forward, and only at the same rate as the normal passage of time. People who aren't scientists like me incorrectly call time travel "waiting". Should be good for a couple million. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It located K129 imploding from thousands of miles away, and supposedly that wasn't even a real SOSUS. It was a geo-technical device I think, earthquakes or underground nukes or something. If the technology progressed at even a moderate pace it's insanely capable now. It behooves you to know when someone is trying to park a dozen or so MIRVed ICBMs off your coast. Hopefully all they are going to do is sit there grooving off your rock and roll music, but if they don't... Click To View Spoiler Holy shit. I really need to pursue a grant for my research on time travel. It is possible and wr do it all the time. You can only travel forward, and only at the same rate as the normal passage of time. People who aren't scientists like me incorrectly call time travel "waiting". Should be good for a couple million.  Click To View Spoiler |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 3:39:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oceangate used legal chicanery to circumvent commercial vessel laws. "You're not a passenger, you're a trained mission specialist, now cough up $250k" CG arrested this guy even though he posed no danger to anyone but himself: https://www.npr.org/2023/09/07/1198252469/coast-guard-hamster-wheel-reza-baluchi-atlantic-ocean Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A tragedy that should never been allowed to happen. The submarine was uncertified. What were they supposed to do? Park a Coast Guard cutter in the harbor mouth and tell them, "if you idiots try to leave we are going to blow a hole in all your boats!?" For manifestly unsafe voyages, yes, the USCG has done this at times. While rare, they have done this. And, to the extent that other vessels are duty bound to respond to distress, it is warranted. This, however, didn't rise to that level. Oceangate used legal chicanery to circumvent commercial vessel laws. "You're not a passenger, you're a trained mission specialist, now cough up $250k" CG arrested this guy even though he posed no danger to anyone but himself: https://www.npr.org/2023/09/07/1198252469/coast-guard-hamster-wheel-reza-baluchi-atlantic-ocean They've arrested him multiple times and deliberately sunk his boat more than once. The most recent is controversial because he was well into international waters. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:29:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He may be well versed in the industry, but he is no SME in the area of composites or pressure vessels. The only reason 60 minutes has him on is because he's James Cameron. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was thinking of starting a thread about this. But Cameron is famously an enormous asshole. Focusing on the technical details though. It was an interesting story. Evidentely The Navy knew they were all dead from the SOSUS Network and the Coast Guard didn't bother asking them when they launched the rescue effort. Cameron also plans to go back to the Titanic someday to make a point that it can be visited, but not by the stupid and reckless. Theres probably a lot of people who want Stockton Rush's estate or someone to cover the cost of that rescue operation. Good luck with that. It doesn't matter if he's the king of the arseholes, James Cameron has been down to the Titanic 33 times, the dude knows his stuff. As far as I know, Cameron isn't an engineer, so I take his technical assessments with the expectation that someone told him that information, not that he knows it firsthand. At least he's smart enough to hire actual engineers in the naval architecture field to do his design work. This. Cameron is just regurgitating information that he has been told. It is like a guy sitting in his private jet watching the pilots and then claiming to be an aviation expert. That’s not really correct. Cameron was the owner, project manager and crewman on some of the deepest dives in history. He was heavily involved at every level and given his likely high IQ his ability to learn on the job is likely very high. I wouldn’t be so dismissive. He may be well versed in the industry, but he is no SME in the area of composites or pressure vessels. The only reason 60 minutes has him on is because he's James Cameron. Even in engineering there aren’t a lot of people who are going to be SMEs on submersible construction. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:31:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even in engineering there aren’t a lot of people who are going to be SMEs on submersible construction. Not a very big business is it? There's... What at most a couple dozen of these things in the world? Most probably belonging to governments and attatched to various black projects? |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:31:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It behooves you to know when someone is trying to park a dozen or so MIRVed ICBMs off your coast. Hopefully all they are going to do is sit there grooving off your rock and roll music, but if they don't... It's not SOSUS or it's follow ons that prevent it, its a general sense of self preservation because they know with absolute certainty that there are a couple Ohios somewhere in the deep blue sea that have a stack of tridents marked "return to sender" and they can split the hair on a gnats ass with them. That's it. Nothing works as well as knowing for a fact that you're gonna get your ass kicked. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:33:55 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was it Craven's autobiography where he was mentioning they heard Scorpion implode from the other side of the Atlantic? That was in the 60's. Now, in addition to having hydrophones more places, we have signal processing that I'd not sure anyone not Claude Shannon then, could even describe. So, not surprising the Navy heard it pop. Next question from their POV is, do we talk, and if we do, how much of our (hopefully) secret capabilities will we end up revealing? Yeah, I think. Bayesian search theory was part of that too. Craven was a wacko but I'm glad he was our wacko |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:36:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He may be well versed in the industry, but he is no SME in the area of composites or pressure vessels. The only reason 60 minutes has him on is because he's James Cameron. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:36:43 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not a very big business is it? There's... What at most a couple dozen of these things in the world? Most probably belonging to governments and attatched to various black projects? We have a member here that does that sort of thing. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:43:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was it Craven's autobiography where he was mentioning they heard Scorpion implode from the other side of the Atlantic? That was in the 60's. Now, in addition to having hydrophones more places, we have signal processing that I'd not sure anyone not Claude Shannon then, could even describe. So, not surprising the Navy heard it pop. Next question from their POV is, do we talk, and if we do, how much of our (hopefully) secret capabilities will we end up revealing? In the video, the Coast Guard Captain mentioned classification issues with the fact that the Navy knew right away. Which has me wondering, is NSA going to seek the "little birdie" that told Cameron they heard the pop? |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:49:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the video, the Coast Guard Captain mentioned classification issues with the fact that the Navy knew right away. Which has me wondering, is NSA going to seek the "little birdie" that told Cameron they heard the pop? I expect that he has already been dishonorably discharged without pension or benefits and told that if he ever talks about this ever again to anyone then he's in real fucking trouble. Luckily James Cameron owes him one. 
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:49:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not a very big business is it? There's... What at most a couple dozen of these things in the world? Most probably belonging to governments and attatched to various black projects? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Even in engineering there aren’t a lot of people who are going to be SMEs on submersible construction. Not a very big business is it? There's... What at most a couple dozen of these things in the world? Most probably belonging to governments and attatched to various black projects? More than you would think, but I suppose it depends on how you define the field. Most of the systems are autonomous these days, but there still requirements that parallel the structural needs of manned systems. The oil, defense, aerospace, and commercial marine industries all have an interest in submersibles. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:51:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the video, the Coast Guard Captain mentioned classification issues with the fact that the Navy knew right away. Which has me wondering, is NSA going to seek the "little birdie" that told Cameron they heard the pop? Chubby sub guy was talking about knowing how many miles where on a Victor IIIs reduction set based on the tonals it was kicking out. They'd track them out of a refit and chart the increase in sound level as they racked up the miles, so not just type, specific hull and how long it's been since it's last oil change. And that was from another sub, 30 years ago. My impression of SOSUS or similar large systems is that they are significantly more sensitive than ship based systems. They typically place them either in choke points where they have to drive over them or at the far end of the various deep sound channels in the oceans where geologic conditions make them particularly effective. The navy probably heard that pop in the north Atlantic from somewhere in the Caribbean |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:54:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...Speaking exclusively to 60 Minutes, Cameron reveals that this is a catastrophe that could and should have been avoided. I avoid catastrophes by staying out of stupid little submarines. Who the hell would think that was a good idea? |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 4:58:27 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I avoid catastrophes by staying out of stupid little submarines. Who the hell would think that was a good idea? Evidentely one of Cameron's friends was on that thing. When the interviewer asked the inevitable question why, Cameron replied. "He was an explorer, not an engineer. He really didn't understand this stuff as well as he should have." |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 5:03:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Carbon fiber is good with tensile loads, not good with compressive loads. The ocean gate CEO was an idiot , anyone who got on that sub had zero common sense. End of story. This...this...and this. IIRC....the pressure vessel ends were glued in place...WTF  Stockton Rush was a dangerous man to himself and others. His hubris killed.
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Posted: 6/10/2024 5:23:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the video, the Coast Guard Captain mentioned classification issues with the fact that the Navy knew right away. Which has me wondering, is NSA going to seek the "little birdie" that told Cameron they heard the pop? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Was it Craven's autobiography where he was mentioning they heard Scorpion implode from the other side of the Atlantic? That was in the 60's. Now, in addition to having hydrophones more places, we have signal processing that I'd not sure anyone not Claude Shannon then, could even describe. So, not surprising the Navy heard it pop. Next question from their POV is, do we talk, and if we do, how much of our (hopefully) secret capabilities will we end up revealing? In the video, the Coast Guard Captain mentioned classification issues with the fact that the Navy knew right away. Which has me wondering, is NSA going to seek the "little birdie" that told Cameron they heard the pop? Cameron's insecurities really shine through in that interview. Basically: how thorough can their investigation be if they haven't spoken to me? me! and hey, I'm an insider, because, because someone told me classified information! and here's the timestamp to help narrow it down!. Accident investigations are very tight-lipped matters. By procedure. But, people get frustrated about the lack of communication/information (but undocumented chatter introduces biases that can wrongly influence an investigation), and antsy people are easy targets for 60 Minutes. It's 60 Minutes' business model. Investigations will typically take a year. I would expect this to take longer. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 5:26:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the video, the Coast Guard Captain mentioned classification issues with the fact that the Navy knew right away. Which has me wondering, is NSA going to seek the "little birdie" that told Cameron they heard the pop? The spillage was intentional |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 5:27:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cameron's insecurities really shine through in that interview. Basically: how thorough can their investigation be if they haven't spoken to me? me! and hey, I'm an insider, because, because someone told me classified information! and here's the timestamp to help narrow it down!. Accident investigations are very tight-lipped matters. By procedure. But, people get frustrated about the lack of communication/information (but undocumented chatter introduces biases that can wrongly influence an investigation), and antsy people are easy targets for 60 Minutes. It's 60 Minutes' business model. Investigations will typically take a year. I would expect this to take longer. Cameron has always come across to me as a guy with zero chill, no poker face whatsoever. When he gets upset he lets the world know. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 5:32:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cameron's insecurities really shine through in that interview. Basically: how thorough can their investigation be if they haven't spoken to me? me! and hey, I'm an insider, because, because someone told me classified information! and here's the timestamp to help narrow it down!. Accident investigations are very tight-lipped matters. By procedure. But, people get frustrated about the lack of communication/information (but undocumented chatter introduces biases that can wrongly influence an investigation), and antsy people are easy targets for 60 Minutes. It's 60 Minutes' business model. Investigations will typically take a year. I would expect this to take longer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Was it Craven's autobiography where he was mentioning they heard Scorpion implode from the other side of the Atlantic? That was in the 60's. Now, in addition to having hydrophones more places, we have signal processing that I'd not sure anyone not Claude Shannon then, could even describe. So, not surprising the Navy heard it pop. Next question from their POV is, do we talk, and if we do, how much of our (hopefully) secret capabilities will we end up revealing? In the video, the Coast Guard Captain mentioned classification issues with the fact that the Navy knew right away. Which has me wondering, is NSA going to seek the "little birdie" that told Cameron they heard the pop? Cameron's insecurities really shine through in that interview. Basically: how thorough can their investigation be if they haven't spoken to me? me! and hey, I'm an insider, because, because someone told me classified information! and here's the timestamp to help narrow it down!. Accident investigations are very tight-lipped matters. By procedure. But, people get frustrated about the lack of communication/information (but undocumented chatter introduces biases that can wrongly influence an investigation), and antsy people are easy targets for 60 Minutes. It's 60 Minutes' business model. Investigations will typically take a year. I would expect this to take longer. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 5:39:43 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even in engineering there aren’t a lot of people who are going to be SMEs on submersible construction. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was thinking of starting a thread about this. But Cameron is famously an enormous asshole. Focusing on the technical details though. It was an interesting story. Evidentely The Navy knew they were all dead from the SOSUS Network and the Coast Guard didn't bother asking them when they launched the rescue effort. Cameron also plans to go back to the Titanic someday to make a point that it can be visited, but not by the stupid and reckless. Theres probably a lot of people who want Stockton Rush's estate or someone to cover the cost of that rescue operation. Good luck with that. It doesn't matter if he's the king of the arseholes, James Cameron has been down to the Titanic 33 times, the dude knows his stuff. As far as I know, Cameron isn't an engineer, so I take his technical assessments with the expectation that someone told him that information, not that he knows it firsthand. At least he's smart enough to hire actual engineers in the naval architecture field to do his design work. This. Cameron is just regurgitating information that he has been told. It is like a guy sitting in his private jet watching the pilots and then claiming to be an aviation expert. That’s not really correct. Cameron was the owner, project manager and crewman on some of the deepest dives in history. He was heavily involved at every level and given his likely high IQ his ability to learn on the job is likely very high. I wouldn’t be so dismissive. He may be well versed in the industry, but he is no SME in the area of composites or pressure vessels. The only reason 60 minutes has him on is because he's James Cameron. Even in engineering there aren’t a lot of people who are going to be SMEs on submersible construction. they're going to be uninspiring 50YO white guys as well |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 5:46:03 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This...this...and this. IIRC....the pressure vessel ends were glued in place...WTF Stockton Rush was a dangerous man to himself and others. His hubris killed.Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Carbon fiber is good with tensile loads, not good with compressive loads. The ocean gate CEO was an idiot , anyone who got on that sub had zero common sense. End of story. This...this...and this. IIRC....the pressure vessel ends were glued in place...WTF Stockton Rush was a dangerous man to himself and others. His hubris killed.Theres a build video where he describes that the glue doesn't really matter once you get down far enough as the pressure seals the ends. He talks about his sub like he's some genius engineer and talks about the deal he got from expired carbon fiber from boeing or whoever, but as long as they build it thick enough it doesn't matter. The place that built the thing, also never did anything like that before. One of the reasons the 1st design cracked and they had to scrap it then built the 2nd one thinking it was better, then it blew up |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 6:03:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Additionally, that Coastie is bullshitting, too. The implosion of even that small sub was an incredible release of energy. I have seen some calculations of the pressure on the hull and the cumulative stored energy that was behind held until the instant of failure. All that energy tried to seek/create equilibrium instantly. The amount of energy was similar to a very large bomb going off. The Coastie saying that "we can call them lost until we are sure" was entirely CYA public relations bullshit. He even admits the implosion detection was supposedly "classified" so they couldn't say anything about it (but the mysterious ultra quiet tapping WAS able to be talked about....hmmmmm), so the CG also knew right away that this was nothing but recovery at best. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 6:06:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Imagine if one of the coast guard patrol planes crashed during the search. A crew killed and plane destroyed "searching" for something that they knew couldn't be located by an airplane. |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 6:07:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: wrong Rush there bro Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Rush was a cocksucking asshole sucking his own farts who was bound and determined to scam people out of their money while risking their lives. No wonder Trump gave him the Medal of Freedom, right comrade?! wrong Rush there bro |
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Posted: 6/10/2024 6:10:57 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did he confuse the two or did he think @phatmax came into this thread to talk about the other Rush for no reason. I am not sure what happened. I didn't look up his statement about Stockon Rush and an award, so I assumed he had gotten something. Regardless, it was a weird reaction, so I tried to remain on topic. 
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Posted: 6/10/2024 6:35:19 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if you weren't a materials engineer, it seems like you, as a fairly intelligent passenger, might have had questions about the loud hull noises you were told to expect during the dive, like, "Are those noises coming from the carbon fiber cylinder part of the hull? If so, does that mean it is cracking? And given those cracks aren't magically fixing themselves between dives, isn't the number of cracks increasing with each dive?" The acoustic monitoring strategy to monitor hull integrity also seemed fatally flawed. It apparently only considered the sounds observed on the current dive - not cracking (and associated reduced hull strength) from prior dives. And setting aside that issue, how was it going to save you if you were 2 miles down and it started to detect a critical hull failure? How would you have enough time to get back up, especially given that it wasn't configured to consider constant loud cracking sounds to be an issue, which prior passengers had heard. Cracking sounds as loud as firecrackers reportedly. Props to the handful of folks who were offered free or reduced priced fares and declined. Fear is a gift. Wait now- so you are saying that a crack in a solid material won’t magically fix itself somehow? Get out of here! Realistically- “crack noise monitoring” is a stupid idea by itself anyhow. No way of knowing of that crack is 1/8” long, 1” long, or 3/4 of the way thru the thickness of the material. And each cycle, all of them will be expanding…. Sure they probably figured “soft crack noise is XX big, loud cracking noise is YY big”, but considering they were not operating at constant pressure, I think that falls into the wild guess category, unless they built and tested a hundred of them, diving them repeatedly, slicing them open to see what the actual damage was compared to what they estimated, etc. Empirical testing and analysis…but we know they didn’t do that. Just dumb. Use the correct materials for the task! Whole lot easier, especially if you just want it to work correctly the first time. |
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