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Posted: 8/22/2022 3:52:53 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 8/22/2022 3:55:46 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "The one"? There are several factory freighters...and the rest of them only have 2 engines to feed rather than 4. For heavy commercial? Yes. The flight deck on the second level was part of the design to allow unfettered access via nose door to the cargo hold. Being versatile enough to have a policy of "if it can physically load in and stay under max cargo weight it flies" makes it exceptionally versatile. Add in that it makes loading and unloading traditional cargo much faster and shes the Queen for a reason. A dedicated freighter variant helped sell the 747 and ultimately, IMO, why the A380 will be considered a total failure. Id like to see a 777F or an MD-11F swallow a long custom drill rig piece or any other large cargo that cannot be stuffed into a modular cargo box or loaded through a side hatch. With the Mrya An-224 gone, the only other commercial aircraft out there with a nose door are the smaller Antonovs IIRC. There are various retired military cargo jets of course. But I dont see C-17s or C-5 Galaxys hitting the commercial freighter market en masse or at all. If they are out the flying commercial, link me. Thats not to say that 777F or other side loading cargo aircraft have no value. Of course they have a solid place. But its impossible to have the same versatility. They could of course re-engineer the fuselage of existing twin engine cargojets to have a hinged tail like the Dreamlifter or a bubble top with front door like the Airbus Beluga. But is a program like that feasible? Depending how a future without the -8F production line looks, maybe. It will be interesting to see how the cargo industry handles it when their current fleet of 747Fs are no longer air worthy. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 3:57:41 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’re already too late for that last part. That makes me sad....
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Posted: 8/22/2022 3:58:44 AM EDT
[#4]
I have a sneaking suspicion I'll live to see the day when Boeing no longer produces planes in the Pacific Northwest.
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Posted: 8/22/2022 5:01:55 AM EDT
[#5]
Since I left Hong Kong for college in 1971, I’ve flown on many 747s, including First Class in the 90s
The last time I think was in 2008. It’s been 777s ever since for long haul flights. I’ll miss them. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 7:38:51 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Destined for Atlas Air. They are disassembling the tooling behind her. Sorry for the single, not so great pic. I had to risk my life just to get this one. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2117/350EB4D8-A177-452D-9511-1EEEA470B765_jpe-2498075.JPG That makes me sad. I've been working around them for almost 30 years now, and it remains one of my favorite aircraft to watch. 
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Posted: 8/22/2022 9:06:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Can't read the thread title without thinking of Dos Gringos...
 Last of the Breed |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 9:35:58 AM EDT
[#8]
Damn, Atlas Air got the final 4. I hope they keep them looking good.
RIP to the Queen of the Skies. I fear there will never be another 4 engine jumbo in our time. Thank you OP for the picture. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:01:33 AM EDT
[#9]
I thought the last two airframes were going to be Air Force 1’s. What happened to that?
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:06:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought the last two airframes were going to be Air Force 1’s. What happened to that? I’m pretty sure the planes being converted to be used as AF1 were white tails originally destined for some Russian airline who didn’t want/couldn’t pay for them. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:11:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn, Atlas Air got the final 4. I hope they keep them looking good. RIP to the Queen of the Skies. I fear there will never be another 4 engine jumbo in our time. Thank you OP for the picture. That's too bad. In the book, Sutter explains that the design philosphy was quadrouple redundancy. That's why it has 4 engines. So that 3 can fail, and you still won't crash. He mentioned he got shit for it, due to cost and weight. Everything about the plane is based on that quadrouple redunancy philosophy, including the landing gear (note there are 4 tires per pod). Early on, A French 747 took off and botched it, hitting a light tower, which penetrated the plane and ripped out three (3) control systems and I think some of the landing gear. They turned around, and landed just fine, no problem, on the 4th control system. He said he never got shit about it again, after that. That's why it has 4 engines. As to Sutter himself, he was the also-ran project engineer, who wasn't nearly cool enough to put on the priorty at the time, which was supersonic commercial aircraft. So he did the 747. And he did it right, both from engineer and leadership standpoint. He saved Boing, who would have collapsed from their SuperSonic debacles, without the 747. Towards the end of the book, he mentioned he had a multi-hour layover in Japan once, and rather than the lounge, he decided to just sit at the wind and count. By his count, at that one airport, he estimated he moved something like 250,000(?) people in a few hours, just with his plane. (if you've ever done a domestic hop in Japan, it's something else - the use stripped 747's with all economy seats, that you can see front to back. It's like being in a huge cave. And it's jam packed with people. For a 50 minute flight, works just fine.) |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:14:00 AM EDT
[#12]
Thanks for the pic.
 An amazing group of people on this site. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:23:23 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are the LCF pilot, right? Yes, we fly them all. Freighters, converted freighters, passenger 400's, -8s, and LCFs. Flying at Atlas is like a box of chocolates.  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:25:12 AM EDT
[#14]
Nice pic, how did you sneak that one out? Family Day?
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:30:51 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, we fly them all. Freighters, converted freighters, passenger 400's, -8s, and LCFs. Flying at Atlas is like a box of chocolates. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/tempImagegz6CXN_jpg-2498480.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/tempImageE1xtBT_jpg-2498482.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/tempImagewVRRMC_jpg-2498484.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/5560A374-3AB7-4A82-B5E6-13108FAB2741_1_2-2498485.JPG Hopefully you get some stick (yoke) time in the new one! |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:33:28 AM EDT
[#16]
I am really surprised the military hasn't purchased more of them - the Looking Glass mission etc are still 707 based.
And I always loved the Cruise Missile Carrier Aircraft concept. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:34:12 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m pretty sure the planes being converted to be used as AF1 were white tails originally destined for some Russian airline who didn’t want/couldn’t pay for them. Yes, this is true. The two jets are being modified now, and there are lengthy delays in the process at this point. I read Sutter's book as well, and it is quite humbling to command the Queen when you realize what it took to make this majestic bird fly. The true nose door freighter also has a more capable floor as well. As one post point out, we can carry industrial drilling equipment that no one else can. Here are some pics of armored Suburbans that I flew to Kabul.  Attached File Attached FileHere is the nastiest, stinkiest cargo I ever flew. 2000 goats will fit on a 747. Brisbane, Australia to Brunei. They had a special team clean the jet overnight.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:37:12 AM EDT
[#18]
Inflight kit handout on United a few years back became a hook container on my fly tying table -
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:39:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you get some stick (yoke) time in the new one! Thanks, I am sure I will eventually. I saw 860 on the ramp at ANC last month. MRAPS into Bagram.  Attached File Attached FileSome of my homeboys who were deployed at Bagram when we landed. It was surreal to see all of my friends and then leave again.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:41:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: fucken STUPID... beyond all measures of stupid.... fuck the 767 and 777... get a better engine and revamp the 747....WTF is wrong with Boeing.. The simple answer is they can’t keep making what the airlines mostly aren’t buying. It’s not a question of better engines. Two big engines will always be cheaper to maintain than four smaller ones with equivalent tech. Better engines are in fact what led to the dominance of twins. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:41:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a sneaking suspicion I'll live to see the day when Boeing no longer produces planes in the Pacific Northwest. Work will continue to move overseas. I have watched incredibly large loads removed from AN-124's, one so long it required a custom articulating trailer with a driver at the aft end and ground equipment trailered in to keep the airplane level while the load was extracted. That one was almost as long as the cargo bay. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:42:37 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought the last two airframes were going to be Air Force 1's. What happened to that? |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:47:36 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice pic, how did you sneak that one out? Family Day? |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:48:31 AM EDT
[#24]
We had 3 jets flying for Emirates at one point.
 Attached FileThe man!  Attached FileThe LCF has 3 times more volume than a regular bird.  Attached FileRoses from Nairobi to Amsterdam.  Attached FileA fellow aviator took this shot and emailed it to me.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:51:47 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, this is true. The two jets are being modified now, and there are lengthy delays in the process at this point. I read Sutter's book as well, and it is quite humbling to command the Queen when you realize what it took to make this majestic bird fly. The true nose door freighter also has a more capable floor as well. As one post point out, we can carry industrial drilling equipment that no one else can. Here are some pics of armored Suburbans that I flew to Kabul. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/SUVs_Kabul_2_JPG-2498494.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/SUVs_Kabul_JPG-2498495.JPG Here is the nastiest, stinkiest cargo I ever flew. 2000 goats will fit on a 747. Brisbane, Australia to Brunei. They had a special team clean the jet overnight. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/Goats_to_Brunei_jpg-2498497.JPG From armored cars to goats… TOT’s hauled it all  |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:54:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From armored cars to goats… TOT’a hauled it all I can smell the goats from here. 
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:54:44 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The simple answer is they can’t keep making what the airlines mostly aren’t buying. It’s not a question of better engines. Two big engines will always be cheaper to maintain than four smaller ones with equivalent tech. Better engines are in fact what led to the dominance of twins. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: fucken STUPID... beyond all measures of stupid.... fuck the 767 and 777... get a better engine and revamp the 747....WTF is wrong with Boeing.. The simple answer is they can’t keep making what the airlines mostly aren’t buying. It’s not a question of better engines. Two big engines will always be cheaper to maintain than four smaller ones with equivalent tech. Better engines are in fact what led to the dominance of twins. Plus they already re-engineered the thing and gave it better engines. Forecast sales 300 airplanes, customers bought 150. Boeing dragged out production as long as they could hoping for a rebound in air cargo to make more freighter sales. But demand never materialized. Production can only be slowed to such a point before it starts costing money. Sometimes it just is what it is. Same with the 757. Makes me wonder if in 20 years we will be listening to crazy conspiracy theories about how Boeing killed the 747 to increase 777 sales. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 10:59:08 AM EDT
[#28]
I enjoy watching them takeoff and land at DFW while at work.
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:01:52 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice pic, how did you sneak that one out? Family Day? Yes. I always ask my wife to take me. It’s probably pretty mundane for her after 36 years, but I still find the processes and the scale of everything interesting. The big birds never fail to impress. Glad I got to see the last 747 at the end of the assembly line. I am hoping they have some sort of celebration for its rollout or first flight. End of an era for sure. The wife has been told that she will be able work the program right into its grave sometime next summer, winding everything down, wrapping things up and making final dispositions for the remnants. Probably going to be an emotional time when that last day comes. I do also have limited access as a railroad employee. But would be really pushing it to do stuff like this. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:06:49 AM EDT
[#30]
We go to some of the nicest places and also some complete shit holes!
Bangui, Central African Republic bringing in UN relief aide to refugees. It's a true garden spot...  Attached File Attached File Attached FileBack in Europe. What a contrast!  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:10:58 AM EDT
[#31]
Stormy night over Africa.
 Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached FileThe Kenyans know what's up!  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:11:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks, I am sure I will eventually. I saw 860 on the ramp at ANC last month. MRAPS into Bagram. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/MRAP_JPG-2498502.JPG  Some of my homeboys who were deployed at Bagram when we landed. It was surreal to see all of my friends and then leave again. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/CaliBoys_JPG-2498504.JPG KC-130 loadmaster. We used chains where a tiedown point existed, straps only on smaller cargo, or when necessary. If we did use straps, we used the larger versions, not the flimsy ones I see here. Then again, we secured to for 9G forward load, 2G aft. Probably not what is required on a 747. But .... National 102. m |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:15:43 AM EDT
[#33]
I've flown on Atlas 747s quite a few times (4 deployments there and back and to/from Korea).
The flight attendants have always been great. Packing everyone's luggage fucking sucks though 
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:17:47 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The straps securing the vehicle are cringy. I guess they don't carry chains and jacks on the 747F? KC-130 loadmaster. We used chains where a tiedown point existed, straps only on smaller cargo, or when necessary. If we did use straps, we used the larger versions, not the flimsy ones I see here. Then again, we secured to for 9G forward load, 2G aft. Probably not what is required on a 747. But .... National 102. m They are certainly chained as well. We were the first to take MRAPS to Afghanistan, and our loads made damn sure that they were secure. They added all of those straps as extra just in case. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:17:56 AM EDT
[#35]
Wife and I are flying a Lufthansa 747-8 from Frankfurt to Chicago in early November. I never thought I'd get a shot a the Queen of the Skies. One more bucket list item. Were in Premium Economy, wish it was business but that was a lot more money.
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:19:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Always wanted to fly first class on one. But I don't think that will ever happen.
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:21:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, we fly them all. Freighters, converted freighters, passenger 400's, -8s, and LCFs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are the LCF pilot, right? Yes, we fly them all. Freighters, converted freighters, passenger 400's, -8s, and LCFs. I thought so. They had a LCF at Everett for Family Day. Which I thought was both neat and odd. I used to see them flying over my work in North Everett all the time, but they disappeared with the 787. The guys at the display said they do still visit Everett occasionally, delivering 767 parts from Wichita, insulation blankets from Italy, refueling, etc. Good to know that they still around here.  Attached File Attached File Attached FileThey claimed that after the AN-225 was destroyed they started getting inquiries about commercial use of the LCF. They also said NASA has expressed interest in acquiring one. You ever hear anything about things like that? And what a cool job you have. Please keep posting pics. ETA: One question. I never noticed the passenger windows in the nose of the LCF before. Is that a pressurized area capable of seating passengers? |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:22:14 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Always wanted to fly first class on one. But I don't think that will ever happen. I imagine they will be flying for quite some time. They stopped making B52's in early 1960's |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:22:32 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not Boeing, it's the airlines refusing to use 4 engine planes anymore as they use too much fuel. Same reason the A-380 got shut down long before it ever paid back it's design costs. 737 will be replaced eventually with carbon fiber plane similar to 787, just smaller; but not for a decade, maybe two decades. Airlines have to reduce their carbon emissions or the global warming fanatics will have them shut down, and no matter what the manufacturers come up with I doubt that electric planes will ever fit into general commercial aviation. Engine reliability and performance supported twin ETOPS for the missions the 747 flies. In other words, modern engine reliability and performance obsoleted the need for 4 motors. The extra 2 “Hoovers” on the 747 no longer provide any advantage over the twins. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:28:57 AM EDT
[#40]
@Boomer
Very cool. I have spent a lot of time on that ramp, and many hours in 718. I have not heard anything about using the LCF, but I am not privy to any real info. Freighters on the ramp in ANC.  Attached File Attached FileFoggy day in ANC.  Attached File Attached FileMy most precious cargo. This one hit home as I was a former DUSTOFF pilot. We brought this hero home to Dover on Veteran's Day.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:33:04 AM EDT
[#41]
Lots of ammo.
 Attached File Attached FileA retiring GSD, and his cute handler.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:35:17 AM EDT
[#42]
@TimeOnTarget
You just moved up to one of my favorite posters here! Awesome photos and stories. 
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:35:36 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well that is purely speculative on my part. But given Boeing’s trend of selling off excess properties and the fact that the Everett facility is not going to be fully occupied, utilized and productive, it won’t surprise me if they consolidate their Washington operations there. I can see them trying build them somewhere else, too. But it’s difficult to build up base of institutional knowledge and experience. Even after 11 years they are still having manufacturing teething problems at Charleston. That and the huge investment that Everett represents would make it hard not to utilize, let alone walk away from. Or they could just stay in Renton. But they have already shrunk the Renton facility’s geographical footprint over the years. I won’t surprise me if the upcoming machinists union labor negotiations and resulting agreement in 2024 might play a determining factor in those sort of decisions, too. Boeing literally just opened a big new facility in west valley Phoenix. Drove by it yesterday-- Camelback-ish and 303 west. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:38:41 AM EDT
[#44]
Well this blows.
I am a 737 captain at a legacy airline and always wanted to fly the Queen of the Skies. Early in my career I jumpseated on a UPS 747, and marveled just how high that cockpit was above the ground. The pilots had to watch the INS groundspeed readout just to know how fast they were taxiing Alas, our airline last flew them in 2007....after our idiot CEO at the time turned down a sweetheart deal from Boeing to buy 747-800s at nearly cost to replace the -400s on property. Do you have any idea how much our company could have made on just the cargo volume available on the whale, WHILE still carrying passengers? Would have been big revenue producers during the Chyna virus as well. I can't wait to see what the rubes at McDonnell-Boeing come up with next. Just another perfect example of the continuing downfall of America. I KNOW! Let's stretch the 737 AGAIN.....they'll NEVER see it coming!  Damn 737 landing at T-38 ref speeds....should have never stopped building 757s. F Southwest....sorry, I digress. I hope this last 74 lives a long, long time...we need to have a visceral reminder of the once-upon-a-time greatness of this country. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:39:12 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They're filling it's bunker with the initial load of coal. BIG PLANES BURN BIG COAL! TC |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:42:50 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stormy night over Africa. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/IMG_1293_JPG-2498533.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/IMG_1403_JPG-2498536.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/IMG_2271_JPG-2498537.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/IMG_2279_JPG-2498538.JPG The Kenyans know what's up! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/432675/IMG_2278_JPG-2498540.JPG Amazing pictures of the T-storms aloft |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:45:44 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Time capsule so future generations can ooo and ahhh over what a great country this once was. It is ironic that communists lack the ability of self-reflection and are such poor students of history. They would destroy the tooling to eradicate any trace of a way of life that was more productive, efficient, and innovative, and then build a museum to the greatness of whoever their Dear Leader is on the ashes thereof. |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:48:36 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Way back in the early 90s, I spent quite a bit of time at Mal Stamper's house installing his alarm system. When I met him, I recognized him from the old Discovery channel WINGS episode on the 747. Was a real blessing to meet him and talk his ear off with questions, which he was more than happy to answer and chat about. I went and found that episode and watched, or more likely re-watched it last night. I wish they would make an updated version. Kind of surprised to not see Joe Sutter prominently featured in it. Also lol at that B-52 with the JT9D installed on it. The video does do a great job of illustrating how extensive of a project it was and what an amazing job those people did and the lengths they went to in creating the 747 from practically scratch to flying machine in just 4 years. Design, engineering, clear a forested swamp, construct a giant building, source millions of parts from thousands of suppliers, put them all together, etc. There must have been an incredible sense of purpose and energy.  Wings - Boeing 747 |
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:48:48 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51+MdBjp6qL.jpg One of the better books I've read. Quite a cool story on its development. Only got to fly on a 747 twice. Never first class, just cattle class.  It was an amazing aircraft to this redneck country boy. Got to walk around it a good bit, simply huge. I understand it's way past it's prime and the economic drivers for it are long gone (other than freight) but it's still sad to see something as elegant as this aircraft just fade away like tears in the rain. I'm going to miss the 757 too. Well, guess it's back to the greyhound bus lifestyle almost all air travel seems to entail these days. 
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Posted: 8/22/2022 11:49:23 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 767, KC46, 777 Is anyone taking delivery of 767s in pax configuration anymore, or are they all freighters? Are they -300 or -400 airframe? The KC-46...whoever took the boomer out of the tail should be drawn & quartered. Could the triple be the last true Boeing jet to have come off the line? |
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