Guy dropped the knife when he was shot.

My friend just recently snuffed a guy and was on the news(LEO), he just posted this video to his Facebook saying the guy was an idiot and lucky his partner didn't get a dirt nap.

Geez man. Wonder how many bullets the guy took when he first went down.

“The chief believes his officers will be cleared” ?  Uh, I sure fucking hope so.

What do cops have to go through after a shooting? Major interrogation? Drug and alcohol test? Mental evaluation? Official statements that lead to outside investigations? How long does it typically take before they are back on the job?

I have so many questions...

Just watched.  Holy sh!t!

Video is down

Yes to all of that.

In our state a shooting could take up to a year to review, and clear the officer. (usually less) sometimes 3 months to 5 months being the norm.

Around here the cop goes on Admin leave and will stay out completely until returned "fit for duty"

From the officers I talk to, it's not the shooting that bothers them so much , it's the waiting to see if your life will be ruined by "the system" for political reasons.

You can't transfer, you can't apply for other employment, you can't move or leave the state in most cases, you're a fox, caught in a trap, waiting for the trapper to come by and see if he'll release you, or put a .22 in your head.

I'll take the licks that will come with this post.

These officers are not a example to be used across the US in training.  They also don't deserve to be vilified for what happened.

I watched the video with the detachment that comes from not being there and forming an opinion based on having no skin in the game and the safety of knowing my career wasn't on the line.

It's too early to know what the officers thoughts, plan or intent were as they haven't said anything that's been released.  I do find it interesting that they appeared to back up as far as they did.  But, what amount of time did they invest in giving the suspect an alternative to being shot?  I looked at the video (I used this for the times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv3SGtfZZEs)

They arrived on scene and confront the suspect.
-At :23 they begin to move back as the suspect advances forward. Initial non compliance by the suspect is demonstrated and confirmed.
-At :42 the suspect has advanced to where the first patrol car is parked.
-The suspect moves forward and the officers continue to issue commands and simple dialogue.  
-At 1:16 the officer are approaching the highway.  You can see the officers view as he looks over his shoulder and it appears Fire and EMS have the road shutdown that they are moving back towards.
-At 2:03 the suspect charges the officer and multiple shots are fired and he goes down.

So from where the officers started to back up, to the time the first shots were fired is about 1 minute and 40 seconds.  In all this happened in about the time it takes to listen to "Eruption" by Van Halen as a reference.

The officer that shot the suspect first was the officer physically attacked.  Should he have holstered?  Should he have shot the suspect when he again was charged by the now un armed suspect?  That is a tough call, in my opinion.  For over 25 years, I've had training for DT and force on force training where advancing with a weapon equals getting shot as the proper response.  I've had training where going for my weapon, holstered or in my hand equals getting shot as the proper response.  I've had training where shooting someone who has dropped their weapon and gone to empty hands equals "what can you articulate was the current threat", what level of resistance is the suspect at and where are you at on the "plus one" standard of UoF application under the old sliding scale of the escalation/de-escalation model to "what are you going to tell the grand jury".

What was in the officers mind we do not know.  The officer may have been holstering because A) he was aware the knife was on the ground and away from the suspect and B) he is the one that appears to call for the other officer to "tase him" and the suspect is up and moving around.   Was his initial intent to have the unarmed suspect tased and "cuff under power"?  I do not know, but it seems possible.  He may very well have suffered a failure/break in his OODA loop cycles.  When I first watched the video I was taken back by how he seemed to struggle with holstering his pistol.  But in watching the video, I think he decided to holster and was doing this as he was charged (he was falling behind in the OODA process) and he may not have been struggling with holstering, but keeping his gun hand on the holstered pistol to aid in retention, which is a basic skill taught in DT.  The problem was he wasn't facing the traditional front or rear grab to defend against, he was faced with a suspect who did a rear over the shoulder and under the arm takedown combined with a half assed attempt at a choke.  While it's blurred, after the suspect gets the officer down, he appears to go for the gun.

The tactic of how far they backed up?  I won't bitch about that.  They appeared to move to where the road had been blocked off.  Using that time to document the multiple opportunities they gave the suspect to drop the knife and comply.  Probably also in the back of their mind knowing that the suspects non compliance could only last so long before the suspect either escalated the situation or they would have to take the initiative.  Its possible that the highway was the location they would stop giving ground.  I don't know what they had on scene or coming in the way of options (specialty launchers like 12ga./37mm/40mm) or if they even deemed that those were appropriate when he still had the knife.  Both had body cams.  In todays world, we may see officers trying to maximize recording the evidence of what led up to the outcome.  I can't say this isn't a bad concept for consideration in some situations.

Bad Planning?  Bad Tactics?  Bad luck?  The variables of time and chance?  Human beings, being, well, human?  All of these were most probably present and factors to some degree.

Some decent commentary on this incident in this video.  He hits the nail on the head at the :19 mark.

Yes to all of the above here.

I've seen OIS's take 8-12 months to get the "all clear" from the DA's office.

Hesitation is in the eye of the beholder.  I got written up for not shooting a guy one night.  I mean I got my ass royally torn by my Sgt. then hauled into the Sheriff's office for his morning rage/hangover to explain it all again.  It took me years to finally work out the combination of training and tactics that would have let me shoot that poor bastard that night.  He had a knife, raised above his head in an aggressive posture, and was quickly approaching me from a distance starting at thirty feet and ending around five feet.  We were at his house because he had taken his wife hostage with a shotgun in a domestic violence battle royale.  The suspect at least recognized what should have happened that night and used it as his incentive to start AA.  It nearly cost me my commission and I had to swear on an Ohio Revised Code and a stack of Guns and Ammo magazines that I wouldn't pull a stunt like that again.

The reason I didn't shoot?  Behind my suspect was his young son, in my lane of fire.  I can still see that sight picture like it was yesterday.  I couldn't shoot and my training at that time didn't include the possibility of lateral movement once my weapon was drawn.  I might as well been glued to the driveway.  If I had shifted to my right a bit the lane of fire would have been good to go.  I don't go all judgmental on officer who don't shoot until I know the whole story.

Couldn’t you have made a headshot on the perp? Sounds like he deserved it.

I know a guy who was in almost the exact same situation, with kids behind the bad guy. Only difference was the bad guy came at him with the knife. He made the decision to holster and go hands on. He walked away. Bad guy didn't. Brass balls, but it messed with him. I'm glad your situation had a positive outcome and I am glad you learned from it.

Very early in my career I responded to a noise complaint in a duplex with a small shared foyer. It was 20 degrees, so I entered the foyer and shut the door behind me. I banged on the door to the stairs leading upstairs unit and it was quickly opened by a guy in his underwear with a butcher knife above his head. I drew, backed up about 6-8 feet until my back hit the shut door, and screamed at him to draw the knife. He just stared at me, not lowering the knife. After the longest 15-20 seconds of my life he dropped the knife. I reholstered as I moved to go hands-on and he lunged for the knife again. I had a pretty good fight to get him in cuffs.

The kid was zombied out on bath salts and had no idea what was going on. Later said he thought I was a guy from his high school who threatened to kill him one day. I know in that 15-20 seconds where he wouldn't drop the knife I would have been justified. I remember knowing this and still telling myself that I would shoot if he stepped forward. Entirely too close. While I am glad it ended that way, I seriously reevaluated my willingness to use lethal force when warranted. I got lucky that night and know that it could have gone entirely different.

At the time I was already an infantry combat veteran. You don't know how you will react until you are in that situation and hopefully you have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes.

Your post obviously comes from a well trained and experienced perspective. My thoughts however are these: I wasn't trained to shoot to disarm but rather to eliminate/neutralize the threat. When he got back up and continued to advance after taking rounds I don't think I'd be computing whether the known weapon is on the ground. I'd be making the assumption that he is still armed or one way or another is still a threat. We really have no idea if there's a concealed pistol on his backside for instance. And case in point here, even wounded, he still managed to make a solid effort to disarm the officer even with the original weapon still on the ground. When he went hands on it got even more real than it had been. All gloves are off when the suspect has a choke hold on an officer. And to the naysayer posts, this is a discussion that offers a real training opportunity, not just an "armchair" attack on the officers. Yes, we have the advantage of being able to hit replay on what is a very interesting confrontation, isn't that a good thing?

yep, wonder why.

Valid points, and many others have them here as well and it's a good discussion so far.  I wasn't taught to shoot to disarm either and have told other people that our targets don't have a leg portion.

The weapon issue is what it is.  I believe the officer saw the knife on the ground, he appears to me to look at it right as things are starting back up.  Could he have other concealed weapons?  Absolutely.  Is shooting someone who continues to actively resist and because they may have concealed weapons on them justifiable?  That's a very grey area to enter in.  In my mind, it is possible that the officer shot on a rapidly advancing armed subject who had been given a more than reasonable amount of time to comply with the officers commands.  That was a good shoot.  I can't say what the officer was thinking, but he just fired multiple rounds at an immediate deadly force threat and put the threat down.  The weapon is at the officers feet and the suspect gets up, does not go for the knife and returns to the attack.

Possibilities from the officers point of view:

Do you shoot somebody with empty hands?

Did the situation play out the way you thought?  You shot multiple times and he went down.  Within seconds he is back up and active.  Is this common in other police shootings you have watched?  Do you hesitate because despite the speed of the situation happening, you have realized that the knife (the only visible weapon) is not in play.  You just had a shooting that you are confident you can justify, but can you justify the second series of rounds without the suspect having the weapon?  Someone calls taser and you realize if it works, the suspect will be a good candidate for "cuffing under power", which is when the probes hit and hopefully achieve neuromuscular incapacitation, this is the prime time to take advantage of the muscular lockup to get your hands on him and in position to have a restraint or control hold in place to sink once the taser stops and you have that magic second to get that hold in place before the time it takes him to get those muscle groups back in action.  Move, re holster and shit the taser didn't work.

Continue to accomplish the re holster and then he grabs you.  He goes high, for the shoulders and neck, and moves behind you as he does this.  One arm over your neck and shoulder, the other under your arm pit, his one hand clasping and locking his other wrist.  Is this a rear choke instead of a gun grab?  He is behind me, do I let go of my grip on my holstered pistol and go to break the rear choke?  If I remember correctly, for a rear choke, I'm suppose to immediately get my hands up to his hands and grab fingers or palms and try to break the arm free while I turn my chin away from that arm that is on my neck and drop my chin down against my chest to try to keep from losing consciousness.  I can't also drop my center of gravity to stretch him out and get good extension on his major muscle groups to make breaking his holds easier since I have gone down and he is collapsing over me.  Suddenly he lets go of the hold, which is good for me.  He instead is grabbing for my gun, and I am on the ground.  Fuck me.  Both the rear and front defenses for a gun grab aren't designed to work from a position on the ground.

The officer may have been stuck in the decision part of the OODA loop.  He may have accomplished the observe and orient phase and stuck on the decide phase resulting in freezing the action phase.  The suspect had gone full spider monkey or bezerker.   The suspects actions may have been in such speed, quick transition and in a succession that the officer couldn't keep up with how it was unfolding.

Damn.........they gave that guy way too many chances.  

I'd agree with the assessment in full.

Personally, I'd rather someone deploy a Taser, faster. It should have been the bodycam officer ideally, since he wasn't being visually and physically targeted by the subject. About halfway down the driveway would have been the ideal point to taze. It's a risk to close to the edge of deployment range, but I'd rather proactively taze before the bum rush, than be doing it on a fast moving target.

That said, once the rush started, everything was happening inside the reaction loop of the officers. Some will wish the first officer had somehow physically restrained the subject in the charge, but they're people who haven't ever physically restrained a sig 20. It's not unreasonable to expect that a physical fight, without weapons, on the ground, would have required 4-6 officers to subdue a subject in that mental state.

It's not a pretty video, but overall that played out much better than it could have.

What happened to the video?

The link above from floridacop is still good.

Here's a good version with more of the body cam from the officer in the physical assault.

Agree. Feel sorry for the younger officers today who have years of this to look forward to

A dead perps family will stand in court, tears streaming down their faces, insisting that the officers had a bazillion other force options other than deadly force, that should have been employed

@OKnativeson

Perhaps you can offer your skills as an expert on use the use force in response hairy bipedal threats to your local law enforcement agency?

I'll be surprised if that guy took a bunch of rds center mass from the first guy. Maybe a a hit or 2 to the right side abdomen and arm.
Guess we need to wait and see what the autopsy says.

Worth thumbing through

Warning - graphic

Last page of the report is the money shot.

Such bullshit it takes so long for an investigation. For what? Watch the fucking video. We live in a fucked up world.

Did anybody notice just before the guy with the knife was shot for the first time, he was blading at 45 as he ran forward. I wonder how many times he was hit and where, during the first string of shots.

Yeah I have seen that before. Willing to bet that guy was an anomaly.
If you watch the officer fire 7 shots it looks to me like they were low and left. My guess is he took one in the arm and dropped the knife with maybe a couple of lower right abdomen hits.
Pure speculation and I could be completely wrong however I have trained enough Glock shooters to see plenty of low left hits.

Isn't Griffin the cancer is caused by lack of micro-nutriants, HIV is not real, chemtrail guy?  Not going to give him 77 min of my time.

Mike

Officer C.J. Bidinger, the one who fired the initial shots was also one of the officers who shot a man in march who was armed with a "replica" pistol and charged officers.

In the video, Swinford appears to ignore commands to put down the gun. Instead, he begins to walk toward some of the officers. When he extends his right arm while holding the gun, officers fire their weapons at him, causing him to fall to the pavement.

Officers immediately rendered first aid, but Swinford did not survive the gunshot wounds.

Officers later learned the gun Swinford was holding was not a deadly weapon. Identifying marks on the gun show it’s actually a TDP 45, a CO2-powered BB gun.

https://www.cbs46.com/news/athens-police-body-cam-video-justifies-deadly-shooting/article_ffd7396e-4415-11e9-a597-77b3040d8624.html

March shooting live leak video

Wow, the officer had a prior shooting over what sounds like a suicide by cop 4 months ago and then is dealing with this situation.  Shitty situation to be involved in the fatal shootings of 2 EDP's in 4 months.

Donut weighed in on the video.  Good commentary from a former LEO

Yup, not poking fun at him but we know there are some guys out there that are poo-poo magnets or have some of the worst luck.

If I were him, I would probably go buy a deserted island in the middle of the Pacific... lightning struck twice for the poor bastard.

this