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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:29:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well the owners email is ave8rgod Aviator god……really? Nah... typical pilot 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:29:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In another aviation group there are a couple of people who would know with good confidence, reporting that this was an air ambulance configured airplane, that had a medical crew on board as well. They also don't speak very well of the aircraft owner. That sucks. N880Z MED JET LLC EL CAJON , CA, US 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:32:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to do a lot of heavy maintenance on 20 and 30 series Lear. 12yr inspections and structure repairs... Have had to call the Lear test pilots many times for stall certification flights. Purposely stalling these things take up to and sometimes more than 10k feet to recover by guys that do it every day. Lears seem to have a very unforgiving nature. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:34:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Medical transport yes
My buddy used to fly these jets as medical transport. You fly shit weather must go flights with very sick people. The planes were generally overworked under maintained. He finally gave it up after a string of close calls . Seemed like shit pay too. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:35:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: N880Z Learjet Crash El Cajon San Diego California - Circling to Land  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsWtQTaaTMUpdate: A friend pointed out that runway 17 is significantly shorter than 27R, and that the pilot may have chosen 27R because the runways were wet. That would be a reasonable choice. However, the pilot was extremely low as he circled to 27R, and there is rising terrain in that direction. I also didn't mention in the video that the current weather report included mist. When the pilot asked the tower to turn the lights up, the tower reported that they were already at 100% brightness. So although there was 3 mile visibility, the mist may have affected his distance perception, which is a common illusion in light rain or mist. - End of update. Typically, circling is done when the winds are more favorable to land on a different runway. But as Max explains, the winds were light, and the pilot could have landed on any runway. But reasons unknown, he choose to do the more difficult circling maneuver to runway 27R. Circling has an accident rate thats 25X higher than flying a precision approach to a straight in landing. As Max explains, most likely the pilot chose 27R to reduce his taxi time on the ground. The crash occurred at the point where the pilot would have made his turn from base to final. This is reminiscent of a Challenger 604 crash earlier this year at Truckee, CA, where that jet also circled and crashed at the base to final turn. As Max explains, when you have difficult conditions, such as it's night and the weather is poor, it's far better to fly a straight in approach, rather than circling to land. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32274/Screenshot_2021-12-28_at_08-35-57_N880Z_-2219596.JPG Not my lane. But if this is a known deal, why not increase altitude make a wide circle and then attempt a landing? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:38:37 PM EDT
[#6]
I used to fly on a similar Lear for med flights. Same paint scheme and all. It was out of PDK though. Most of the time they are used for private flights between med flights. Takes no time at all for the pilot to switch it over. Sucks for all involved.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:38:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like task oversaturation. He wasn't task saturated if he was able to get out three "oh shit"s and a blood-curdling scream over the radio prior to impact. The idea of task saturation is that you're so focused on the thing that is not killing you that you don't notice the thing that is. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:44:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Honestly, the more I look at it, the more it looks like the Fairchild B52 crash. Too sharp of a bank, not paying attention to airspeed and a stalling wing.
Unrecoverable at that altitude. Still a mistake to not get vectors for a full ILS approach onto the runway you want, rather than this shit they were doing in those conditions. EDIT: Idiot me, no ILS |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:45:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Feel sorry for the pilot, RIP.
It's a damn shame it couldn't have been a plane full of CA politicians though... |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:00:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He wasn't task saturated if he was able to get out three "oh shit"s and a blood-curdling scream over the radio prior to impact. The idea of task saturation is that you're so focused on the thing that is not killing you that you don't notice the thing that is. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sounds like task oversaturation. He wasn't task saturated if he was able to get out three "oh shit"s and a blood-curdling scream over the radio prior to impact. The idea of task saturation is that you're so focused on the thing that is not killing you that you don't notice the thing that is. There are several things that could have happened while he wasn't paying attention. Entirely possible he was focused so hard on looking for the runway he didn't realize his plane was short on energy and clearance. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:00:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well it certainly didn't parachute to a soft landing now, did it ? No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" By any definition there is an explosion. In fact, more than one. You can count them here : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JGfeTdJNVBs |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:06:44 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly, the more I look at it, the more it looks like the Fairchild B52 crash. Too sharp of a bank, not paying attention to airspeed and a stalling wing. Unrecoverable at that altitude. Still a mistake to not get vectors for a full ILS approach onto the runway you want, rather than this shit they were doing in those conditions. There isn't an ILS there. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:08:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Things were fine then after the runway change something went to shit. The fact that the instant after the ATC informs him that the field lights were at 100% he starts screaming would seem to indicate (to me, an uninformed non-aviator) that he realized that whatever he was aimed at was not the field. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:13:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There isn't an ILS there. That would explain that then. Thought I read somewhere that there was one. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:14:56 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm no expert here, but if he failed to aviate, navigate or communicate and didn't realize it until his final 3 seconds, that doesn't mean he wasn't oversaturated prior to that. There are several things that could have happened while he wasn't paying attention. Entirely possible he was focused so hard on looking for the runway he didn't realize his plane was short on energy and clearance. You're talking about "task (mis)prioritization", which is a different human factor than "task saturation." The aviate/navigate/communicate/automate hierarchy is a task prioritization list. Not trying to be pedantic, and all of these judgment/decisionmaking/airmanship human factors are closely related to one another. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:15:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519Kdd45E9L._SX342_SY445_QL70_ML2_.jpg Perfect response. Thank you Capt! |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:19:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well it certainly didn't parachute to a soft landing now, did it ? No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode"   |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:28:43 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" lol. We got a wise guy. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:30:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok are all 3300+ posts you’ve made in 8 months this detailed? I vote for an admin to change your screen name to Technical_Tammy I second the motion. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:35:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This Doesnt need to be aired Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I thought there was some sort of “gentleman’s agreement” to not air atc audio like that. This Doesnt need to be aired Leave up most of it, maybe. But I didn't need to hear the last few seconds. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:40:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that the instant after the ATC informs him that the field lights were at 100% he starts screaming would seem to indicate (to me, an uninformed non-aviator) that he realized that whatever he was aimed at was not the field. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Things were fine then after the runway change something went to shit. The fact that the instant after the ATC informs him that the field lights were at 100% he starts screaming would seem to indicate (to me, an uninformed non-aviator) that he realized that whatever he was aimed at was not the field. As a complete layperson it seems more that he was looking for the field as he was executing a turn and the aircraft got away from him as being more likely than this somewhat odd theory that he was trying to land on Maple Street. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:45:06 PM EDT
[#22]
VAS Aviation
 Learjet 35A fatally crashes during approach at Gillespie, San Diego, CA |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:48:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hearing those pilots last words facing death is chilling. Really is. 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:52:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're talking about "task (mis)prioritization", which is a different human factor than "task saturation." The aviate/navigate/communicate/automate hierarchy is a task prioritization list. Not trying to be pedantic, and all of these judgment/decisionmaking/airmanship human factors are closely related to one another. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm no expert here, but if he failed to aviate, navigate or communicate and didn't realize it until his final 3 seconds, that doesn't mean he wasn't oversaturated prior to that. There are several things that could have happened while he wasn't paying attention. Entirely possible he was focused so hard on looking for the runway he didn't realize his plane was short on energy and clearance. You're talking about "task (mis)prioritization", which is a different human factor than "task saturation." The aviate/navigate/communicate/automate hierarchy is a task prioritization list. Not trying to be pedantic, and all of these judgment/decisionmaking/airmanship human factors are closely related to one another. Yeah, more like target fixation (trying to spot the runway down through the clouds) than task saturation. Focused on navigating, quit aviating for too long, too close to the ground, and in a turn in IMC with close terrain to boot. Moving your head around looking for the runway in mainly IMC conditions is a recipe for a immediate What a way to buy it. Short of some strange circumstances coming out or mechanical issues, this one looks like "pilot's attempt to conduct VFR flight in IMC and failure to maintain a stabilized approach, resulting in loss of control and impact with terrain". https://skybrary.aero/articles/vestibular-system-and-illusions-oghfa-bn |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:53:18 PM EDT
[#25]
Reading about high performance aircraft the number one cause of accidents ( especially in military) is getting behind the power curve, this happens awfully fast and there is little chance of recovery if it happens.
Looks like he may of been close to it on the turn to approach, broke through the clouds, saw that he was off on his turn and made it steeper this falling behind the power curve and stalling. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:55:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In another aviation group there are a couple of people who would know with good confidence, reporting that this was an air ambulance configured airplane, that had a medical crew on board as well. They also don't speak very well of the aircraft owner. Dollars to donuts this is a typical 134.5 scumbag operation. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:00:49 PM EDT
[#27]
I have the feeling this will be another loss of control accident, just like the one in TEB a few years ago and one into PWK before that. That plane went in near vertical it appears, implying it was most likely stalled/spun or otherwise out of the pilots control. I have some time in a Lear 60, and like every airplane you absolutely cannot get slow in a turn, and have to really understand the effects of G's on stall speed. Look at a legacy series Lear wing and you'll see every boundry layer device know to man on there, and they're there for a reason!
I don't know all the details of this crash, but watching that last video posted raises some questions in my mind. One would be they were flying, and cleared for the straight in approach to 17, and only requesting to cancel and circle inside the FAF? Did these guys do a brief that included that at all, or was it a last second change? Why wouldn't they have worked that out with the app/tower controllers prior to starting the 17 approach? Where was the backup from the NF pilot? was anyone monitoring the speed/bank/altitude? Lots of questions, might never be answered. We all need to stay as sharp and by the SOP's as possible on this kind of maneuver, stay safe out there guys! |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:04:14 PM EDT
[#28]
This is pretty much what he did.
 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:05:18 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that the instant after the ATC informs him that the field lights were at 100% he starts screaming would seem to indicate (to me, an uninformed non-aviator) that he realized that whatever he was aimed at was not the field. Oh, and by the way, they're not tillers, they're wheels. 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:08:04 PM EDT
[#30]
It looks like there isn't even an LPV approach at KSEE. Probably because of the terrain doesn't allow for a precision approach, including the missed, that meets TERPS criteria.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:08:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, there’s no reason to do them these days. Instructor at FSI flat out told me circling, at minimums, in a jet, is stupid. I agree. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:08:48 PM EDT
[#32]
On board: Two pilots and two nurses. Had just taken a patient from Lake Havasu to Los Angeles and were heading home.
 No survivors found after small plane crashes in El Cajon neighborhood |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:09:22 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Haven't listened to the audio, and don't plan to, but your idea makes quite a bit of sense. Oh, and by the way, they're not tillers, they're wheels. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The fact that the instant after the ATC informs him that the field lights were at 100% he starts screaming would seem to indicate (to me, an uninformed non-aviator) that he realized that whatever he was aimed at was not the field. Oh, and by the way, they're not tillers, they're wheels. The VAS aviation YouTube has the end of the recording cut out so You just hear the ATC/pilot interaction prior to things going bad. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:09:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Imagine the disappointment of finally figuring out a way to prove to everyone that you are the smartest person in the room and then finding out that nobody cares.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:12:36 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really is. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hearing those pilots last words facing death is chilling. Really is. Had a one time good friend who lived just to the west of there. Opened his door, whole neighborhood in flames, 727 and human remains scattered all about. He never was quite right. After I left, the airline I worked for had two crashes. The voice recorder was something I wish I'd never heard. Lears I knew mostly hauled Xed checks and organs. My airline also got free Lears for ordering lotsa CRJs, things always burned up our profit sharing checks hauling BoDs around, rather than flying on our airliners at the end of the quarters. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:12:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Damn, that was messed up. Unless we find out there was a major aircraft malfunction, that guy screwed the pooch and others died as a result. Terrible. Wonder if he even had the required weather to perform the circling approach? And it sounds like that circling maneuver wasn't authorized at night?
Tried to keep the field in sight, who knows if he was able to or not. Too steep of a turn for the speed he was at, exceeded AoA, and the jet lost its lift and stalled. And it sounds like he probably commenced the maneuver at way too low of an altitude (probably because of the weather). So potentially he violated the FAR/AIM as well as the operating manual; surprise, the jet turned into a smoking hole in the ground and people died. As an aside, if the control tower was closed it's common to cancel IFR with approach control to close your flight plan (otherwise you'll have to call on the phone after you land to cancel your flight plan). |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:14:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Ooops. Never mind, didn't read so good prior to comment.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:14:35 PM EDT
[#38]
 Plane crash in East County San Diego | Security footage Video submitted by Cheryl Brown shows the plane crash on her Nest security camera located at Pepper Drive and Bevin Lane in El Cajon. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:15:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Instructor at FSI flat out told me circling, at minimums, in a jet, is stupid. I agree. No shit. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:17:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have the feeling this will be another loss of control accident, just like the one in TEB a few years ago and one into PWK before that. That plane went in near vertical it appears, implying it was most likely stalled/spun or otherwise out of the pilots control. I have some time in a Lear 60, and like every airplane you absolutely cannot get slow in a turn, and have to really understand the effects of G's on stall speed. Look at a legacy series Lear wing and you'll see every boundry layer device know to man on there, and they're there for a reason! I don't know all the details of this crash, but watching that last video posted raises some questions in my mind. One would be they were flying, and cleared for the straight in approach to 17, and only requesting to cancel and circle inside the FAF? Did these guys do a brief that included that at all, or was it a last second change? Why wouldn't they have worked that out with the app/tower controllers prior to starting the 17 approach? Where was the backup from the NF pilot? was anyone monitoring the speed/bank/altitude? Lots of questions, might never be answered. We all need to stay as sharp and by the SOP's as possible on this kind of maneuver, stay safe out there guys! Good questions. Are any Lears certified for single pilot? Hard to believe two people could willingly botch an arrival this bad. And their approach/landing speed seems pretty high. There was a Lear 35 at 10 miles one day when I was downwind for a touch and go at an airport with a tower and a single 8500ft. runway. I was student solo, and I had a Bonanza with a student and instructor behind me also doing touch and goes. Tower tells the Lear to call at 5 miles as I'm abeam the numbers and putting a notch of flaps in. I turned base, two flaps, got my sink rate all nice and tidy and was just turning onto final when the Lear calls 5 miles. Tower tells me "climb immediately, go around and side step right". Tells the Bo to extend downwind. A minute later I was getting near the end of the runway back up at pattern altitude when I hear the tower tell the Lear "left Alpha 8 and contact ground". Lear pilot says "uh, we're gonna need Alpha 10" which was the end of the runway. I looked down and sure as shit they were rolling off the very end - they burned in so fast it made the tower change their plan AND they used all 8500ft of runway to land! |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:21:35 PM EDT
[#41]
Wow, I am quite sorry I listened to that audio.
Complete terror in that man's scream, Jesus. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:22:53 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow, I am quite sorry I listened to that audio. Complete terror in that man's scream, Jesus. Reminds me of the scream when the two helicopters collided in AZ. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:26:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn, hearing the pilot.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:26:52 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:28:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Instructor at FSI flat out told me circling, at minimums, in a jet, is stupid. I agree. I think the lack of practice for the civilian world, I agree. Air Force guys seem to train on them all the time. Doesn't BOS run an ILS circle approach? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:34:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryImagine flying a VFR approach in that shit |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:35:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t think I’ve ever heard the last audio from a plane crash posted before, man…..nothing they can do. Prayers for all. The final Snodgrass transmission was similar IIRC. It may still be on youtube. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:39:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another video of a left hand turn approach and flies right over the crash site. Go to 0:40. The video is sped up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S5wchbwx20 |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:40:12 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty sure some did. I used to work on them (Learjet 23-35) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The engines sound very loud to be at basically idle power for landing. Do these jets have thrust reverser? Maybe uncommanded or accidental engagement of thrust reverser? It surely sounds like the engines are at max power. 35’s came with no reverses, Dee Howard’s and Aeroncas. The Aeroncas are finicky and can deploy in flight. There is a big red emergency stow button on the dash. Pretty sure some did. I used to work on them (Learjet 23-35) I am pretty sure there is a reverser bucket sitting on the road in some of the pics. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:43:50 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It looks like there isn't even an LPV approach at KSEE. Probably because of the terrain doesn't allow for a precision approach, including the missed, that meets TERPS criteria. There’s a LOC approach. To 27R. 
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