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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:03:14 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:04:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never flown a jet but how long does it take to recover if you level the wings and punch the throttle? Is the block of altitude to work that problem too big to recover if you pop out of clouds 500 ft up in a bank? Quote HistoryQuoted: Never flown a jet but how long does it take to recover if you level the wings and punch the throttle? Is the block of altitude to work that problem too big to recover if you pop out of clouds 500 ft up in a bank? Quoted: Depends on airspeed, sink rate, roll, attitude, energy state (AOA), engine RPM and wing type, startle factor, etc. 300’ to 3000’ approx. It’s something spend your whole career not doing, because if it does, you’re most likely dead. I used to do a lot of heavy maintenance on 20 and 30 series Lear. 12yr inspections and structure repairs... Have had to call the Lear test pilots many times for stall certification flights. Purposely stalling these things take up to and sometimes more than 10k feet to recover by guys that do it every day. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:06:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: May have been where the owner was or where it is based out of. Given the cost, you generally don't go for $1800 Hamburgers by yourself in a learjet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's a short trip--you can drive it in under 90 minutes. May have been where the owner was or where it is based out of. Given the cost, you generally don't go for $1800 Hamburgers by yourself in a learjet. Gillespie Field (where it was about to land) is allegedly the home airport for that jet. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:06:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 35’s came with no reverses, Dee Howard’s and Aeroncas. The Aeroncas are finicky and can deploy in flight. There is a big red emergency stow button on the dash. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The engines sound very loud to be at basically idle power for landing. Do these jets have thrust reverser? Maybe uncommanded or accidental engagement of thrust reverser? It surely sounds like the engines are at max power. 35’s came with no reverses, Dee Howard’s and Aeroncas. The Aeroncas are finicky and can deploy in flight. There is a big red emergency stow button on the dash. Pretty sure some did. I used to work on them (Learjet 23-35) |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:08:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to do a lot of heavy maintenance on 20 and 30 series Lear. 12yr inspections and structure repairs... Have had to call the Lear test pilots many times for stall certification flights. Purposely stalling these things take up to and sometimes more than 10k feet to recover by guys that do it every day.  |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:08:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn! Listening to that pilot in his last moments. I have a book somewhere about commercial aviation. I believe it's called "Unfriendly Skies". The author mentions how often a pilot's last words are "oh shit". It's apparently very common. 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:09:48 PM EDT
[#7]
Super thick fog got him.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:10:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So if the pilot was attempting a VFR landing, maybe this bit of convo suggests he was looking at a residential street, seeing street lights thinking it was 27R? I doubt it. If you look at the flight path he is flying due south over the field (original IFR to runway 17). He then starts his left circle approach which would need him to do basically a 270 degree turn to then head more or less West for 27R. If you look at the satellite view there certainly are streets that run east west, but he crashes after only turning about 180 degrees towards the Pepperwood Mobile Home community on the map. https://goo.gl/maps/QAHbNHqvxvcqvGzB7 I think another poster mentioned, I think he was probably looking out the window to try to see the runway lights, and would have really had to crane his heat hard over his left shoulder. Would have been really easy to over do it and get too much bank and then stall the aircraft. It looks like it went in pretty steep vs. a shallow dive based on the debris, so would guess a stall and roll straight in like the Teterboro video posted. Here is a video of a larger plane doing a 180 circling approach. Lot's going on and you have to keep your speed up in the turn but of course not so fast you overshoot. Look at how much the pilot flying (left seat) is craning his neck to see.  Airbus CIRCLING APPROACH CALVI by CAPTAIN JOE |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:11:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad that facts hurt your feels You still remind me of Dave_A |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:14:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to do a lot of heavy maintenance on 20 and 30 series Lear. 12yr inspections and structure repairs... Have had to call the Lear test pilots many times for stall certification flights. Purposely stalling these things take up to and sometimes more than 10k feet to recover by guys that do it every day. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Never flown a jet but how long does it take to recover if you level the wings and punch the throttle? Is the block of altitude to work that problem too big to recover if you pop out of clouds 500 ft up in a bank? Quoted: Depends on airspeed, sink rate, roll, attitude, energy state (AOA), engine RPM and wing type, startle factor, etc. 300’ to 3000’ approx. It’s something spend your whole career not doing, because if it does, you’re most likely dead. I used to do a lot of heavy maintenance on 20 and 30 series Lear. 12yr inspections and structure repairs... Have had to call the Lear test pilots many times for stall certification flights. Purposely stalling these things take up to and sometimes more than 10k feet to recover by guys that do it every day. @RiverSwine45 Welcome aboard, hope you and yours had a good Christmas ! |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:17:53 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gillespie Field (where it was about to land) is allegedly the home airport for that jet. Which means the pilots have probably done the RNAV approach at night, then cancel IFR to circle before. It probably wasn't an unusual maneuver for either the flight crew, or ATC to get that request. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:18:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yea, that video posted above is good. He crossed the airport at like 350 AGL.... OK, that is either pretty reckless, a complete loss of situational awareness or potentially an altimetry failure. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:20:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Circling approaches are not authorized at night there. The only way they could land on the other runway was to cancel and fly a visual pattern. Or go around, and do the localizer approach to 27R. Which only gets you down to 1500' AGL. Perhaps they left KSNA min gas and were committed to the approach. You've got both Brown and Lindbergh pretty close. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:21:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually it was " oh shit!" X3 . You left out the last part of the audio... 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:21:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @RiverSwine45 Welcome aboard, hope you and yours had a good Christmas ! Thanks Dagger, Merry Christmas buddy. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:22:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, there’s no reason to do them these days. Still some places in Canada that are CTL only (though luckily I don't have to go to those places anymore and RNAV approaches are hunting those to extinction) and the US VOR MON program means that there could be places where the only ground based NAVAID approach is a CTL. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:23:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's an interesting question--one similar to the question asked by my examiner when I took my instrument ride. The scenario was as follows: You are on an IFR flight inbound to airport XYZ that is planned to terminate with an ILS. Weather is 900 overcast, 5 miles visibility at the airport--well within your CAT limits. As you get close, Approach gives you different landing instructions--a circle to land on a crossing runway-- that puts you on the opposite end of the field, requiring a substantial taxi-back time. The question: You break out at 900' with the ILS runway (that you planned on landing on) in sight, within the controlled airspace. Can you just cancel your IFR and land visually? Sure, you could cancel your IFR, but because there is not legal VFR weather at the airport, you can't legally land, and you'd be in violation. I have no idea if something like this actually happened--it just made me think of the scenario given in my checkride. Request SVFR and go land, duh. 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:23:45 PM EDT
[#18]
This guy is flying an instrument approach circle to land at Gillespie Field in a single engine prop airplane during the day. Over flies the airport and circles the same direction as the crashed jet.
At 10:10 he's flying over the airfield and then starts his left turn to circle and land.  LOC D Approach- KSEE (Gillespie Field) from KCRQ (Palomar Airport) |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:23:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 35’s came with no reverses, Dee Howard’s and Aeroncas. The Aeroncas are finicky and can deploy in flight. There is a big red emergency stow button on the dash. Interesting. Didn't know that. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:26:44 PM EDT
[#20]
Brings back vivid memories of my last LR Jet (35A) fatal accident investigation.
Arm chair quarterbacking only from what I have seen in this tread, but the similarities are pretty close. This will get the full attention of all the Interested Parties involved. RIP to all involved.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:28:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I used to do a lot of heavy maintenance on 20 and 30 series Lear. 12yr inspections and structure repairs... Have had to call the Lear test pilots many times for stall certification flights. Purposely stalling these things take up to and sometimes more than 10k feet to recover by guys that do it every day. Still have my lear stick shaker frequency measuring duffer   Attached File |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:30:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still have my lear stick shaker frequency measuring duffer https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180908/20211228_132451_jpg-2219722.JPG Only $450 from SnapOn
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:31:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe it was yet another instrument approach then circle to land casualty. They kill so many pilots in unforgiving fast aircraft. Best 'splaination so far. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:31:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" I bet you’re the dork walking around the fire ground telling people it’s an air cylinder instead of a bottle. Admit it, you’re THAT guy ?? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:33:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What happened at about the 12 second mark in the video? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:  It didn't "explode" or "blow up" What happened at about the 12 second mark in the video? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:41:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Would a HUD with AOA, artificial horizon, and altimeter have prevented this? Those seem like the critical instruments that having in line of sight would help.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:42:06 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a book somewhere about commercial aviation. I believe it's called "Unfriendly Skies". The author mentions how often a pilot's last words are "oh shit". It's apparently very common. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Damn! Listening to that pilot in his last moments. I have a book somewhere about commercial aviation. I believe it's called "Unfriendly Skies". The author mentions how often a pilot's last words are "oh shit". It's apparently very common. Yelling "oh shit" is the best way to switch your mindset into do-or-die mode. I have done it a few times, not while crashing a plane of course. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:43:22 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hearing those pilots last words facing death is chilling. Things were fine then after the runway change something went to shit. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:43:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Flying into Gillespie Airport  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_sDL8hvvk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6vINXnf4_4The pilot flies directly over last night’s crash site at about the 2:20 mark in the first video. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:44:34 PM EDT
[#30]
He asked if they could turn the lights up more just before the crash.
Was he looking a street lamps and a road not a runway? Never mind didn’t realise this was already 4 pages will read back |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:45:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, that is either pretty reckless, a complete loss of situational awareness or potentially an altimetry failure. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yea, that video posted above is good. He crossed the airport at like 350 AGL.... OK, that is either pretty reckless, a complete loss of situational awareness or potentially an altimetry failure. If true, that's way too low. He may have had to do so in order to maintain a visual with the ground, which means that his canceling of IFR to go visual also may not have been legal. Lot of links in this particular accident chain. We lost a guy in a 182 here due to collision with high tension power lines, and the weather was clear, near dusk. One of the controllers stopped by after he got off duty to bullshit a bit and told us they were always warning the guy to confirm his altitude because he would always get on the downwind at only 1500' MSL which is 500' AGL (field altitude is 980). |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:47:53 PM EDT
[#32]
This looks like the same approach and circle to land at night. Not sure the type of aircraft. Looks like he's over the airfield at about 12:35 and then starts the left turn to circle.
 KHII to KSEE sunset flight, LOC-D Circle to land. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:48:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would a HUD with AOA, artificial horizon, and altimeter have prevented this? Those seem like the critical instruments that having in line of sight would help. Some commercial aircraft have a HUD, but it's centered on the windshield and wouldn't do you any good trying to maintain 300' AGL in a left bank while looking back over your left shoulder trying to find the runway......... |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:48:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You still remind me of Dave_A
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:51:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would a HUD with AOA, artificial horizon, and altimeter have prevented this? Those seem like the critical instruments that having in line of sight would help. In order to see any of the instruments in the HUD, you need to be looking pretty much straight through the combiner. This guy was probably looking out the side window, so it probably wouldn’t have made any difference during the turn. HUD’s are awesome though. I just wish the airplanes I fly had enhanced vision tied into the HUD. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:51:26 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty sure some did. I used to work on them (Learjet 23-35) They came in all three versions. I have flown all three versions. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:54:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He asked if they could turn the lights up more just before the crash. Was he looking a street lamps and a road not a runway? I don't think so, but I doubt we will ever know for sure. The crash site does line up with turning base to final and I did mention that early in the thread, so did the YT pilot that got posted a page or 2 later. Pilot got way behind the aircraft and made a horrific and fatal mistake. The lack of identities being released of the deceased passengers is also sad. Probably quite prominent people in that community. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:55:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" Ya know what? I think that is being pedantic to the point of idiocy. A plane made a fast track to a crater in the ground and a giant fireball went up. I'm willing to forgive anyone who describes such a scene as "an explosion following a crash" |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:56:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some commercial aircraft have a HUD, but it's centered on the windshield and wouldn't do you any good trying to maintain 300' AGL in a left bank while looking back over your left shoulder trying to find the runway......... Sounds like task oversaturation. I suppose a commercial jet would have one pilot flying and another pilot looking for the runway or they would not even attempt the approach at all in favor of a straight in landing? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:58:19 PM EDT
[#40]
i'm surprised there were no warning sounds over the transmission. no stall warning, altitude warning, etc etc.
just a request to turn the lights up and then "oh shit oh shit oh shit" then silence. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:03:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Another video of a left hand turn approach and flies right over the crash site. Go to 0:40. The video is sped up.
 Brown Field to Gillespie Field San Diego |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:03:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay, Deej. @boomer Use the functions that you pay for. It makes threads like this much more reasonable and free from distracting posters. He is certainly one. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:03:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It didn't "explode" or "blow up" Quote HistoryQuoted: It didn't "explode" or "blow up" Quoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" Quoted: Sad that facts hurt your feels “Explosion There is no fixed definition of an explosion. Events that are described as explosions include a rupturing water boiler, a flash of light created by an electrical short circuit, detonation of a high explosive, deflagration of a tank containing an explosive fuel-air mixture, or the shock wave, fireball, and debris cloud produced by a thermonuclear detonation. The AIChE suggests that an explosion is "A release of energy that causes a blast". Berthelot, the French chemist that pioneered the scientific study of explosions, is reputed (Bailey and Murray, Explosives, Propellants and Pyrotechnics, Brassey) to have defined an explosion in 1883 as "the sudden explosion of gases into a volume of much greater than their initial one, accompanied by noise and violent mechanical effects." A humourous definition was given by Joseph Needham, "An explosion may be defined as a loud noise accompanied by the sudden going away of things from the places where they were before." - see p. 110 of The Gunpowder Epic, Vol 5, Part 7, Science and Civilization in China.” https://shepherd.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/JetA/Glossary.html |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:15:56 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ya know what? I think that is being pedantic to the point of idiocy. A plane made a fast track to a crater in the ground and a giant fireball went up. I'm willing to forgive anyone who describes such a scene as "an explosion following a crash" Which is why most GD Aviation topics tend to go to shit. I tend to STFU on these, there are folks who do this for a living and know what they're talking about, a helluva lot more than I do. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:16:02 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think so, but I doubt we will ever know for sure. The crash site does line up with turning base to final and I did mention that early in the thread, so did the YT pilot that got posted a page or 2 later. Pilot got way behind the aircraft and made a horrific and fatal mistake. The lack of identities being released of the deceased passengers is also sad. Probably quite prominent people in that community. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He asked if they could turn the lights up more just before the crash. Was he looking a street lamps and a road not a runway? I don't think so, but I doubt we will ever know for sure. The crash site does line up with turning base to final and I did mention that early in the thread, so did the YT pilot that got posted a page or 2 later. Pilot got way behind the aircraft and made a horrific and fatal mistake. The lack of identities being released of the deceased passengers is also sad. Probably quite prominent people in that community. Thanks yes, just caught up with the thread. 40% is is pointless pedantry which I’m not convinced is even correct because then fuel air bombs don’t explode either. Anyway. Absolute tragedy. I know nothing about flying but still find the whole process fascinating. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:17:52 PM EDT
[#46]
In another aviation group there are a couple of people who would know with good confidence, reporting that this was an air ambulance configured airplane, that had a medical crew on board as well.
They also don't speak very well of the aircraft owner. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:20:26 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In another aviation group there are a couple of people who would know with good confidence, reporting that this was an air ambulance configured airplane, that had a medical crew on board as well. They also don't speak very well of the aircraft owner. Oh NO !!!
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:21:30 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In another aviation group there are a couple of people who would know with good confidence, reporting that this was an air ambulance configured airplane, that had a medical crew on board as well. They also don't speak very well of the aircraft owner. I saw that posted elsewhere as well. The medvac part not the owner. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:22:12 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In another aviation group there are a couple of people who would know with good confidence, reporting that this was an air ambulance configured airplane, that had a medical crew on board as well. They also don't speak very well of the aircraft owner. Well the owners email is ave8rgod Aviator god……really? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:24:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well it certainly didn't parachute to a soft landing now, did it ? No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" It exploded upon ground impact. Case closed. Stir a pot of semantical shit elsewhere. |
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