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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:55:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why cancel IFR in crappy weather? Was he trying to save 3 minutes? Sheesh... Circling approaches are not authorized at night there. The only way they could land on the other runway was to cancel and fly a visual pattern. Or go around, and do the localizer approach to 27R. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:56:05 PM EDT
[#2]
Do Lear's have a tendency to roll over on their back?
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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:56:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe it was yet another instrument approach then circle to land casualty. They kill so many pilots in unforgiving fast aircraft. Yep, there’s no reason to do them these days. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:56:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @CFII Can you explain that in more detail? Thanks Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. I'm pretty sure you nailed it with this. Sad for the pilot and passengers. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:57:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure what category a Lear is, but it's probably about 2mi from the end of the runways. That might sound like a lot, but it's really not. Circling approaches to near minimums at night is one of the most dangerous things you can do in an airplane that isn't being actively shot at. No room for even a tiny mistake there. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:58:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad that facts hurt your feels Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pedantic Sad that facts hurt your feels I agree that your post was pedantic and pointless. The fucking plane crashed and ignited in a fireball. Some might describe that as an explosion. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:00:51 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Circling approaches are not authorized at night there. The only way they could land on the other runway was to cancel and fly a visual pattern. Or go around, and do the localizer approach to 27R. Makes sense to cancel in that case, but still...should the tower have advised something different? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:02:41 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe it was yet another instrument approach then circle to land casualty. They kill so many pilots in unforgiving fast aircraft. Yep, he was calling for the lights and got slow. Circling is dangerous. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:03:59 PM EDT
[#9]
If the pilot couldn’t see the runway why on earth wouldn’t he gain speed and altitude, fly around, and try to land again?
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:03:59 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:06:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dang. Do those have a crazy high stall speed? Seems like the current level of aerodynamics knowledge would produce planes that were more forgiving. RIP all on board.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. Dang. Do those have a crazy high stall speed? Seems like the current level of aerodynamics knowledge would produce planes that were more forgiving. RIP all on board. The stall speed is high. “Current level of aerodynamics knowledge” hasn’t produced airplanes which are more forgiving. Circle to land is an unforgiving maneuver by definition. Flying jets safely can only be done by using the Stable Approach concept. It’s very difficult to fly a stable circling approach in a fast jet. Has to be done precisely by the numbers. For this reason, many of them are being turned into coded GPS Instrument approaches. Less fun, but much safer. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:07:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryCan you let Austin and the 2 witnesses from the article know that they are wrong. Tillerman says it wasn’t an explosion so they need to reword what they saw. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:08:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why cancel IFR in crappy weather? Was he trying to save 3 minutes? Sheesh... Because thats the procedure for this type of approach/landing Read CFII's post as he explains it quite well |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:08:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn, hearing the pilot. I'm often not stirred to emotion hearing of other vehicle crashes (unless i knew the folks), but it always saddens me when airplanes go down. Not sure why. Maybe it is the respect i have for aviators. That video and audio just makes me sad. At least it was quick. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:09:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah!! I mean why didn't the guy be more accurate and say "geez babe I think a plane just made an uncontrolled descent into terrain and subsequently deflagrated!" as he witnessed a plane crash. He witnessed a plane crash. Give him some slack. We don't always need to be so pedantic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" Yeah!! I mean why didn't the guy be more accurate and say "geez babe I think a plane just made an uncontrolled descent into terrain and subsequently deflagrated!" as he witnessed a plane crash. He witnessed a plane crash. Give him some slack. We don't always need to be so pedantic.  Give the firekid a break. He can only recently buy a pistol without help. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:11:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: San Diego Gillespie Field Tower cleared the flight to land on runway 17. At 19:11 the flight contacted ATC, cancelling their IFR clearance and requesting to land on runway 27R. It was approved. The flight crew then requested the runway lights to be turned up, to which the controller replied that “they are at a 100% now”. The pilot requesting clearance to land then screaming “…oh shit! oh shit!,” before the transmission went silent. So if the pilot was attempting a VFR landing, maybe this bit of convo suggests he was looking at a residential street, seeing street lights thinking it was 27R? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:11:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: looks like he was banking hard and lost altitude rapidly. Engine sounded like they were working. I found this website explaining bank angle and lift. Not saying it is what happened but I thought Id post it. https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/aerodynamics/why-does-aircraft-stall-speed-increase-with-bank-angle-aerodynamically/ Learjets don’t like to get slow. Factor that in with an steep bank and low altitude and this is probably what happened. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:11:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" Some people are fun at parties, and others make replies like this. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:12:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Flying into Gillespie Airport
 Gillespie Field - Try to find an airport  Watch us fly into Gillespie Airport - California |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:13:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never flown a jet but how long does it take to recover if you level the wings and punch the throttle? Is the block of altitude to work that problem too big to recover if you pop out of clouds 500 ft up in a bank? Depends on airspeed, sink rate, roll, attitude, energy state (AOA), engine RPM and wing type, startle factor, etc. 300’ to 3000’ approx. It’s something spend your whole career not doing, because if it does, you’re most likely dead. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:13:25 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The engines sound very loud to be at basically idle power for landing. Do these jets have thrust reverser? Maybe uncommanded or accidental engagement of thrust reverser? It surely sounds like the engines are at max power. 35’s came with no reverses, Dee Howard’s and Aeroncas. The Aeroncas are finicky and can deploy in flight. There is a big red emergency stow button on the dash. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:14:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three references to explosion. I'm waiting for the detailed explanation about how it didn't explode I guess someone's wife left them for a guy who misused the word "explosion". |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:14:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Wow, that thing really blew up, exploded, etc when it hit the ground.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:15:26 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dang. Do those have a crazy high stall speed? Seems like the current level of aerodynamics knowledge would produce planes that were more forgiving. RIP all on board. Lear 35’s we’re basically 1960’s design tech. Cutting edge in the 70’s, but they haven’t even made one in over 25 years. Scary video. Sad to hear his last words like that. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:17:04 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Truly horrible. Does the pilot get to make the call when circling as far as how wide the circle is? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I do not fly a Lear, but man I would love to. When you are in a bank your stall speed goes up, so there was a point at which the aircraft departed. He knew it, too. Hence the transmission. Poor guy. I mean, it just takes one mistake sometimes. Truly horrible. Does the pilot get to make the call when circling as far as how wide the circle is? I just rode backseat with a buddy who was getting his IPC done in a Cherokee. Circle to land was one of the approaches we did. You are supposed to stay within a mile of the runway IIRC and maintain the runway in sight during the circle maneuver, while reining in your airspeed, running your checklist, and setting up a proper descent to land etc. It seemed to be a lot of work at 90kts in a Cherokee, I can't imagine it being very easy in a high speed/short wing lawn dart like the Lear. Would be very easy to wind up in an unusual attitude and/or lined up on the wrong string of lights, and the more time you spend looking around over your shoulder, the more time the airplane has to get away from you.......I think that's what happened here. Between this and the Cessna twin that the Doc from Yuma crashed exactly like this on a failed circle to land approach - seems like it's biting a lot of pilots. Straight in GPS or ILS or vector me to my alternate please. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:22:59 PM EDT
[#26]
 ?? ???????? ?? Plane crash ??? Learjet 35A in a San Diego-Gillespie Field, killing all on board 27/DEC/2021 He's flying right towards the big hill straight ahead and turns hard left before stalling the wing. You can see the small hill on the left.  Plane crash December 27, 2021 on Pepper Drive El Cajon CA. I am happy to be alive. 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:28:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the pilot couldn’t see the runway why on earth wouldn’t he gain speed and altitude, fly around, and try to land again? Obviously, he Would have preferred to do that.  When you’re in the moment, in “the zone”, it’s very difficult to retain the self awareness to know things are going wrong enough to Go Around. For this reason, airliners have built in auto snitches, which will rat you out if you make the slightest deviation from SOP. This, plus the 180+4 snitches in back, and the +1 snitch up front, is what makes airline flying safer these days. Overall, it’s a good thing. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:29:40 PM EDT
[#28]
I don’t think I’ve ever heard the last audio from a plane crash posted before, man…..nothing they can do. Prayers for all.
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:30:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" A fuel/air mixture explodes. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:31:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hearing those pilots last words facing death is chilling. Lenny: Jesus! Max: You know, statistically, that's the second most common word people say right before they die. "Shit" being number one. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:32:01 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A fuel/air mixture explodes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" A fuel/air mixture explodes. Most people would agree that Napalm explodes. That’s the equivalent of what were looking at. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:32:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think it is recommended to have power settings at flight idle while turning base to final in a Lear 35, more likely to pull power after crossing the fence on final. Low, slow and unspooled isn’t where you want to be in any jet… |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:33:28 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RNAV GPS to 17, then goes to circle to 27R. Very possible they were too slow, with too much bank angle. Especially if the circle wasn't initially planned for. I don't know shit about Lears, but there were no stall buzzers or anything in the background of that transmission. Lear 35 has both a stick shaker and pusher, as I recall. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:36:32 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obviously, he Would have preferred to do that. When you’re in the moment, in “the zone”, it’s very difficult to retain the self awareness to know things are going wrong enough to Go Around. For this reason, airliners have built in auto snitches, which will rat you out if you make the slightest deviation from SOP. This, plus the 180+4 snitches in back, and the +1 snitch up front, is what makes airline flying safer these days. Overall, it’s a good thing. Maybe he couldn't see his glide slope indicator? |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:42:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was just swamp gas Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What happened at about the 12 second mark in the video? It was just swamp gas Maybe. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:45:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably hit it just before impact, while already crashing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The linked article said he clipped a power line. Probably hit it just before impact, while already crashing. Jets like that have the glide ratio of a crowbar, he was bleeding off altitude in a turn because he thought he was somewhere he wasn't. He came in via IFR (instrument flight rules) and asked to go off IFR to land because he thought he knew where he was in relation to the airport. My guess is that he was in and out of fog/clouds and caught a glimpse of the airport and lost his spatial relationship to it and was lower than he thought when he made his base leg turn. Hitting that power line had nothing to do with it, he would have hit the ground maybe a second later at that bank angle and rate of descent. Thought he was good, should have had the tower talk him in. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:46:16 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Truly horrible. Does the pilot get to make the call when circling as far as how wide the circle is? To some extent - circling approaches have minimum altitudes based on terrain, and the pilot must stay within a certain distance of the airport to be clear of terrain at that altitude. Faster aircraft with larger turning radii have a wider clear zone and generally higher minimum altitudes as a result - circling minimum altitudes are broken down into "categories" based on aircraft speed, with Cat A being the slowest and E being the fastest. You can circle at a higher altitude than listed so long as you stay out of the clouds and can see the airport. Mike |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:46:25 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RNAV GPS to 17, then goes to circle to 27R. Very possible they were too slow, with too much bank angle. Especially if the circle wasn't initially planned for. I don't know shit about Lears, but there were no stall buzzers or anything in the background of that transmission. Looked like plenty of airspeed to me in a turn thru base into final. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:47:19 PM EDT
[#39]
Aviator god…….is the registered persons email. Weird.
Link of the company Company Number 201900710508 Status Active Incorporation Date 2 January 2019 (almost 3 years ago) Company Type DOMESTIC Jurisdiction California (US) Registered Address 15131 CHAD ROAD EL CAJON 92021 United States Agent Name RICHARD JONES [email protected] Agent Address 15131 CHAD ROAD, EL CAJON, CA, 92021 Directors / Officers JOHN OLSON RICHARD JONES RICHARD JONES [email protected], |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:48:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a short trip--you can drive it in under 90 minutes. May have been where the owner was or where it is based out of. Given the cost, you generally don't go for $1800 Hamburgers by yourself in a learjet. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:49:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aviator god…….is the registered persons email. Weird. Company Number 201900710508 Status Active Incorporation Date 2 January 2019 (almost 3 years ago) Company Type DOMESTIC Jurisdiction California (US) Registered Address 15131 CHAD ROAD EL CAJON 92021 United States Agent Name RICHARD JONES [email protected] Agent Address 15131 CHAD ROAD, EL CAJON, CA, 92021 Directors / Officers JOHN OLSON RICHARD JONES RICHARD JONES [email protected], Hotmail? Holy shit, there's another link in the accident chain. Prob got his weather updates from a NetZero free dialup CD he got at Blockbuster. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:49:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe he couldn't see his glide slope indicator? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Obviously, he Would have preferred to do that. When you're in the moment, in "the zone", it's very difficult to retain the self awareness to know things are going wrong enough to Go Around. For this reason, airliners have built in auto snitches, which will rat you out if you make the slightest deviation from SOP. This, plus the 180+4 snitches in back, and the +1 snitch up front, is what makes airline flying safer these days. Overall, it's a good thing. Maybe he couldn't see his glide slope indicator? I'm going to guess he had target fixation on the airport which was shrouded in low clouds and mist due to crappy weather. As CFII and others have described things happen very fast. The stick shaker and other warnings may have gone off but there was still not enough time for recovery. There is that famous DC10 crash in FL where the pilots and engineer were trying to solve the mystery of the front landing gear being down (a bulb burned out which is why they had no indication the gear was down and locked) and no one was flying the plane so it crashed into the Everglades. Literally three people in the cockpit and everyone of them were trying to screw with the landing gear or look into the engineering area or whatever and no one was actually flying the plane or watching what it was doing (on autopilot, more complex than they let go of the controls and went on a hike into the rest of the plane). |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:50:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm going to guess he had target fixation on the airport which was shrouded in low clouds and mist due to crappy weather. As CFII and others have described things happen very fast. The stick shaker and other warnings may have gone off but there was still not enough time for recovery. There is that famous Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Obviously, he Would have preferred to do that. When you're in the moment, in "the zone", it's very difficult to retain the self awareness to know things are going wrong enough to Go Around. For this reason, airliners have built in auto snitches, which will rat you out if you make the slightest deviation from SOP. This, plus the 180+4 snitches in back, and the +1 snitch up front, is what makes airline flying safer these days. Overall, it's a good thing. Maybe he couldn't see his glide slope indicator? I'm going to guess he had target fixation on the airport which was shrouded in low clouds and mist due to crappy weather. As CFII and others have described things happen very fast. The stick shaker and other warnings may have gone off but there was still not enough time for recovery. There is that famous Fixted |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:52:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519Kdd45E9L._SX342_SY445_QL70_ML2_.jpg  |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:58:15 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why cancel IFR in crappy weather? Was he trying to save 3 minutes? Sheesh... That's an interesting question--one similar to the question asked by my examiner when I took my instrument ride. The scenario was as follows: You are on an IFR flight inbound to airport XYZ that is planned to terminate with an ILS. Weather is 900 overcast, 5 miles visibility at the airport--well within your CAT limits. As you get close, Approach gives you different landing instructions--a circle to land on a crossing runway-- that puts you on the opposite end of the field, requiring a substantial taxi-back time. The question: You break out at 900' with the ILS runway (that you planned on landing on) in sight, within the controlled airspace. Can you just cancel your IFR and land visually? Sure, you could cancel your IFR, but because there is not legal VFR weather at the airport, you can't legally land, and you'd be in violation. I have no idea if something like this actually happened--it just made me think of the scenario given in my checkride. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:58:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe he couldn't see his glide slope indicator? You don't have that when doing a circling approach. You have your altimeter and the view out the windshield. When you approach the final course for the runway you're landing on, you'll get whatever visual guidance (PAPI, etc) is installed and operating (or not installed) for that runway. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:58:34 PM EDT
[#47]
  "When firefighters arrived at the scene there was significant rain occurring and there was a large debris field that stretched about 200 feet," Lakeside Fire Protection District Chief Don Butz told CNN. "The firefighters observed a significant fireball and smoke from the fire station -- the fire station is a half a mile away from the scene," Butz said. The chief said they are aware of a vehicle being damaged. There was rain in the area with breezy conditions, CNN meteorologist Pedram Javaheri reported. The El Cajon observation site showed light winds of 10-15 mph near the time of the crash, but gusts were much higher in the nearby foothills, peaking at 40-45 mph, Javaheri added. Weather observations from Gillespie Field, the local airport, showed visibility dropped below 1 mile about 6:50 p.m., with cloud ceilings below 500 feet, which would have required the pilot to follow Instrument Flight Rules, Javaheri noted. The conditions lasted until about 8 p.m. when visibility returned to 3-5 miles, he said. https://abc30.com/san-diego-plane-crash-el-cajon-southern-california-no-survivors/11396509/ |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:01:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hearing those pilots last words facing death is chilling. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:02:09 PM EDT
[#49]
Disregard
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Posted: 12/28/2021 2:02:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsgYHUD7Z40He's flying right towards the big hill straight ahead and turns hard left before stalling the wing. You can see the small hill on the left. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGfeTdJNVBshttps://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/0203c3e/2147483647/strip/true/crop/1484x929+0+0/resize/840x526!/format/webp/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F86%2F17%2Fece74fe446448dbe7e784ff5a11c%2Fpepper-drive-plane-crash-01.png Google maps satellite view. Big hill (red), small hill (purple), area of crash site (yellow), line from crash to runway 27R.  |
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