User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:29:41 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @CFII Can you explain that in more detail? Thanks Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:31:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad that facts hurt your feels Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pedantic Sad that facts hurt your feels |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:31:44 AM EDT
[#3]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:34:59 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. Dang. Do those have a crazy high stall speed? Seems like the current level of aerodynamics knowledge would produce planes that were more forgiving. RIP all on board. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:37:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Lakeside resident Suzie Mercadante was out walking the dogs at around 7.15pm when she saw the jet plummeting to the ground.
She told the Tribune how she saw 'a blue streak and then a giant big orange ball,' then 'the blackest smoke just billowing out.' Thomas O'Brien who lives just a few blocks away from where the plane exploded onto the road said he was sitting on the couch when he heard the jet's turbines screaming across the night sky. He said that he used to hearing planes because they live near the runway at Gillespie Field, but described the sound as incredibly loud. 'It was 10 times louder than normal,' O'Brien told the Tribune. 'My walls started shaking, like there was an earthquake. I froze. Honestly, I thought it was about to hit us.' O'Brien said he saw the jet explode from his back window and the blast reflecting off his pool. A few beats later, the booming sound of the explosion hit him and then his house lost power.    Luggage is removed from the scene as emergency teams worked to identify the victims on Monday night  The crash has caused a blackout for some 2,500 customers in the area More PICS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:39:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dang. Do those have a crazy high stall speed? Seems like the current level of aerodynamics knowledge would produce planes that were more forgiving. RIP all on board. I do not fly a Lear, but man I would love to. When you are in a bank your stall speed goes up, so there was a point at which the aircraft departed. He knew it, too. Hence the transmission. Poor guy. I mean, it just takes one mistake sometimes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:41:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Damn. To know you are dying right now and nothing you can do about it. Prayers for the families.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:44:05 AM EDT
[#8]
Could be another Teterboro Learjet Accident
 Security Video Reel • Teterboro Learjet Accident • NTSB CEN17MA183 |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:44:57 AM EDT
[#9]
NTSB Index of Months Identifies probable causes of all general/commercial accidents |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:45:57 AM EDT
[#10]
Bill would not be happy.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:46:08 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do not fly a Lear, but man I would love to. When you are in a bank your stall speed goes up, so there was a point at which the aircraft departed. He knew it, too. Hence the transmission. Poor guy. I mean, it just takes one mistake sometimes. Truly horrible. Does the pilot get to make the call when circling as far as how wide the circle is? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:46:20 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wonder what happened - spatial disorientation I imagine? That would be my guess - cancelling IFR, asking for the lights to be turned up, then "Oh Shit". Sure, something randomly catastrophic could have failed, but even an engine fire at straight and level is something you deal with calmly. Shut the motor down, extinguish it, etc. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:46:41 AM EDT
[#13]
Weather has been pretty shitty here. It was drizzling rain here in N. San Diego County around the time of the crash.
Gillespie Field weather:  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:47:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The linked article said he clipped a power line. And if you clip a powerline in a Lear, you aren't where you should be. Likely Spatial D got them there, if that's the case. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:49:33 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe it was yet another instrument approach then circle to land casualty. They kill so many pilots in unforgiving fast aircraft. Yeah, and the 35a is certainly not forgiving. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:53:11 AM EDT
[#16]
4 on board deceased, no one on the ground hurt, one home damaged, electricity was out to a few thousand.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:54:17 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bill would not be happy. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:54:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lakeside resident Suzie Mercadante was out walking the dogs at around 7.15pm when she saw the jet plummeting to the ground. She told the Tribune how she saw 'a blue streak and then a giant big orange ball,' then 'the blackest smoke just billowing out.' Thomas O'Brien who lives just a few blocks away from where the plane exploded onto the road said he was sitting on the couch when he heard the jet's turbines screaming across the night sky. He said that he used to hearing planes because they live near the runway at Gillespie Field, but described the sound as incredibly loud. 'It was 10 times louder than normal,' O'Brien told the Tribune. 'My walls started shaking, like there was an earthquake. I froze. Honestly, I thought it was about to hit us.' O'Brien said he saw the jet explode from his back window and the blast reflecting off his pool. A few beats later, the booming sound of the explosion hit him and then his house lost power. https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/12/28/06/52286255-10349325-image-a-19_1640674428358.jpg https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/12/28/13/52296093-10349325-image-a-36_1640697511640.jpg https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/12/28/14/52296099-10349325-image-a-23_1640701154245.jpg Luggage is removed from the scene as emergency teams worked to identify the victims on Monday night https://i0.wp.com/timesofsandiego.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/crash17.jpg?fit=987%2C555&ssl=1 The crash has caused a blackout for some 2,500 customers in the area More PICS I say this without any knowledge l, but I pray those aren't children's luggage. John Wayne to Gillespie can't be much more than 100 miles away. Lear jet, short commute I wonder if there were passengers and if so "well known". Sad either way. RIP |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:58:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dang. Do those have a crazy high stall speed? Seems like the current level of aerodynamics knowledge would produce planes that were more forgiving. RIP all on board. This one was made in 1985 Everything I've ever read about them shows they are relatively high performance and unforgiving Couldn't find a POH but it seems as if at full flaps gear down stall speeds are approaching 100kts Depending on loadings and such I can imagine things getting sporty rather quickly |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 11:58:49 AM EDT
[#20]
Looks like he was flying through low scud, broke through and found himself too low and not in level flight.
Spacial disorientation with only a second or two to correct for terrain and didn't make it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:09:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Low visibility.
  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:12:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Truly horrible. Does the pilot get to make the call when circling as far as how wide the circle is? Helicopter pilot here, not an airplane pilot, but if I remember correctly--ideally--you want to try and keep the field in sight when completing the circle-to-land. That's probably pretty tough in a fast airplane like a Lear. RIP. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:13:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode"  |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:14:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like he was flying through low scud, broke through and found himself too low and not in level flight. Spacial disorientation with only a second or two to correct for terrain and didn't make it. Never flown a jet but how long does it take to recover if you level the wings and punch the throttle? Is the block of altitude to work that problem too big to recover if you pop out of clouds 500 ft up in a bank? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:20:56 PM EDT
[#25]
 Plane Crashes Into Neighborhood, No Survivors | El Cajon |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:21:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never flown a jet but how long does it take to recover if you level the wings and punch the throttle? Is the block of altitude to work that problem too big to recover if you pop out of clouds 500 ft up in a bank? Lots of altitude, and spin recovery training. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:21:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Thats like, a mile from my sister's house
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:22:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Truly horrible. Does the pilot get to make the call when circling as far as how wide the circle is? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I do not fly a Lear, but man I would love to. When you are in a bank your stall speed goes up, so there was a point at which the aircraft departed. He knew it, too. Hence the transmission. Poor guy. I mean, it just takes one mistake sometimes. Truly horrible. Does the pilot get to make the call when circling as far as how wide the circle is? I'm not sure what category a Lear is, but it's probably about 2mi from the end of the runways. That might sound like a lot, but it's really not. Circling approaches to near minimums at night is one of the most dangerous things you can do in an airplane that isn't being actively shot at. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:23:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Never flown a jet but how long does it take to recover if you level the wings and punch the throttle? Is the block of altitude to work that problem too big to recover if you pop out of clouds 500 ft up in a bank? Looks light minimum flight speed without flaps is just over 200 knots or 230 m.p.h. As he was in a dive and in unlevel flight, his speeds were even higher. At say 250 m.p.h., distance traveled in 1 second is 367 feet per second. If he broke through low scud 1000 feet (looked a lot lower than that), he'd have less than 3 seconds to correct the dive and roll. Just too little time to do anything, and he was traveling a lot faster than that/had less time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:25:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad hearing the pilot’s last words. Wonder what happened - spatial disorientation I imagine? That’s what I was thinking |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:26:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad that facts hurt your feels Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pedantic Sad that facts hurt your feels Now we’ve graduated from pedantic to obtuse |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:30:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Pedantic Sad that facts hurt your feels /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Triggered-143.gif That meme always, and without fail, makes me laugh. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:30:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks light minimum flight speed without flaps is just over 200 knots or 230 m.p.h. As he was in a dive and in unlevel flight, his speeds were even higher. At say 250 m.p.h., distance traveled in 1 second is 367 feet per second. If he broke through low scud 1000 feet (looked a lot lower than that), he'd have less than 3 seconds to correct the dive and roll. Just too little time to do anything, and he was traveling a lot faster than that/had less time. So basically half the time and twice the stall speed a "hobby" prop plane would have at best. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:32:30 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. Wouldn’t he get an alert that he was dangerously close to stalling or does the system not recognize his current situation as a crash possibility? Why not pick up speed and altitude and try another loop around? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:34:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Years ago I was picked up in a lancair 4p with the turbo prop, and it was raining when we took off. About 3000 ft up the pitot tub froze and we lost airspeed. This isn't the best plane to have that happen to. It was warm on the ground and we didn't think about turning on the tube heater but without airspeed it can be tricky to figure out how fast you're going and things can turn worse if you mismanage it. The plane we were flying does a solid 400mph ground speed, which is the same cruise speed as a F16..please don't ask me how I know that part.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:36:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @CFII Can you explain that in more detail? Thanks Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. As a complete layperson who's watched like 10,000 episodes of Airline Disasters, it's amazing how this sort of situation builds and builds and when the chain of the accident is complete it's just unravels at breakneck speed. Terrifying and thoughts for that poor guy as he knew what was unfolding, and his final moments were recorded. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:36:26 PM EDT
[#37]
N880Z Learjet Crash El Cajon San Diego California - Circling to Land
 Failed To Load Title Update: A friend pointed out that runway 17 is significantly shorter than 27R, and that the pilot may have chosen 27R because the runways were wet. That would be a reasonable choice. However, the pilot was extremely low as he circled to 27R, and there is rising terrain in that direction. I also didn't mention in the video that the current weather report included mist. When the pilot asked the tower to turn the lights up, the tower reported that they were already at 100% brightness. So although there was 3 mile visibility, the mist may have affected his distance perception, which is a common illusion in light rain or mist. - End of update. Typically, circling is done when the winds are more favorable to land on a different runway. But as Max explains, the winds were light, and the pilot could have landed on any runway. But reasons unknown, he choose to do the more difficult circling maneuver to runway 27R. Circling has an accident rate thats 25X higher than flying a precision approach to a straight in landing. As Max explains, most likely the pilot chose 27R to reduce his taxi time on the ground. The crash occurred at the point where the pilot would have made his turn from base to final. This is reminiscent of a Challenger 604 crash earlier this year at Truckee, CA, where that jet also circled and crashed at the base to final turn. As Max explains, when you have difficult conditions, such as it's night and the weather is poor, it's far better to fly a straight in approach, rather than circling to land.  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:36:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:40:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay, Deej. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Pedantic Sad that facts hurt your feels Okay, Deej.  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:41:02 PM EDT
[#40]
No wonder people got rattled, the jet was flying as low as 350ft above the ground. That would definitely shake the walls.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:41:02 PM EDT
[#41]
I have no experience whatsoever, but that seemed like a pretty steep bank at the speed while coming in for landing. The audio was tough to hear man
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:43:52 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally you shoot a instrument approach then circle to land if the runway the approach is to is unsuitable for landing. The general idea is you fly the instrument approach to get under the ceiling of the clouds, and then basically fly a traffic pattern to land at the runway that you need. The problem is that that is high workload in a fast aircraft. By asking tower to max the lights he was already sketchy on the visibility. Basically, if he was craning his neck outside looking for his runway and let his energy state get to low, he stalls, spins, and has zero chance to recover. And it can happen in mere seconds. I fly airliners now, but most all of our approaches are just straight in. If I fly a traffic pattern, which I do, its VFR, and the weather is zero factor. Looking at the approach charts that are available online, circling to 27R and 35 are not authorized at night, probably why they cancelled the IFR. I read elsewhere they crossed over the field at 700' AFL when they started their pattern. A Lear 35 "should" have an AOA indicator installed, the 25 I flew even had an approach indexer on the glare shield. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:44:56 PM EDT
[#43]
I bet it was all systems green until he hit something. I doubt he lost situational awareness.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:46:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: N880Z Learjet Crash El Cajon San Diego California - Circling to Land  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsWtQTaaTMhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32274/Screenshot_2021-12-28_at_08-35-57_N880Z_-2219596.JPG I could listen to that guy talking aviation until the end of time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:48:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit. Actually it was " oh shit!" X3 . |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:50:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Why cancel IFR in crappy weather? Was he trying to save 3 minutes? Sheesh...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:50:57 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lakeside resident Suzie Mercadante was out walking the dogs at around 7.15pm when she saw the jet plummeting to the ground. She told the Tribune how she saw 'a blue streak and then a giant big orange ball,' then 'the blackest smoke just billowing out.' Thomas O'Brien who lives just a few blocks away from where the plane exploded onto the road said he was sitting on the couch when he heard the jet's turbines screaming across the night sky. He said that he used to hearing planes because they live near the runway at Gillespie Field, but described the sound as incredibly loud. 'It was 10 times louder than normal,' O'Brien told the Tribune. 'My walls started shaking, like there was an earthquake. I froze. Honestly, I thought it was about to hit us.' O'Brien said he saw the jet explode from his back window and the blast reflecting off his pool. A few beats later, the booming sound of the explosion hit him and then his house lost power. https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/12/28/06/52286255-10349325-image-a-19_1640674428358.jpg https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/12/28/13/52296093-10349325-image-a-36_1640697511640.jpg https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/12/28/14/52296099-10349325-image-a-23_1640701154245.jpg Luggage is removed from the scene as emergency teams worked to identify the victims on Monday night https://i0.wp.com/timesofsandiego.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/crash17.jpg?fit=987%2C555&ssl=1 The crash has caused a blackout for some 2,500 customers in the area More PICS Three references to explosion. I'm waiting for the detailed explanation about how it didn't explode |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:53:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I imagine something was amiss due to canceling IFR and requesting runway lights at brightest? No, it indicates the opposite. He felt like it was in the bag. Comfortable, maybe to the point of complacency. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:53:10 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking at the approach charts that are available online, circling to 27R and 35 are not authorized at night, probably why they cancelled the IFR. I read elsewhere they crossed over the field at 700' AFL when they started their pattern. A Lear 35 "should" have an AOA indicator installed, the 25 I flew even had an approach indexer on the glare shield. Yea, that video posted above is good. He crossed the airport at like 350 AGL.... |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2021 12:53:58 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why cancel IFR in crappy weather? Was he trying to save 3 minutes? Sheesh... Yeah that is weird.... |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
