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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:06:54 PM EST
[#1]
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:14:17 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Electro-shock therapy isn't very far behind lobotomies when it comes to draconian treatments of people. Quote HistoryQuoted: Electro-shock therapy isn't very far behind lobotomies when it comes to draconian treatments of people. Electroshock (Electroconvulsive therapy) does apparently have some benefits in certain cases of depression. The last lobotomy I remember reading about was a woman suffering from depression who wanted it performed and it wasn't all that long ago; I couldn't find a quick reference to it though. Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is a procedure, done under general anesthesia, in which small electric currents are passed through the brain, intentionally triggering a brief seizure. ECT seems to cause changes in brain chemistry that can quickly reverse symptoms of certain mental health conditions. ECT often works when other treatments are unsuccessful and when the full course of treatment is completed, but it may not work for everyone. Much of the stigma attached to ECT is based on early treatments in which high doses of electricity were administered without anesthesia, leading to memory loss, fractured bones and other serious side effects. ECT is much safer today. Although ECT may still cause some side effects, it now uses electric currents given in a controlled setting to achieve the most benefit with the fewest possible risks. Left cold since it's the mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:16:20 PM EST
[#3]
Like on planet of the apes?
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:22:38 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One day they will be discussing the quackery of 2020-2023. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:22:42 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Electroshock (Electroconvulsive therapy) does apparently have some benefits in certain cases of depression. The last lobotomy I remember reading about was a woman suffering from depression who wanted it performed and it wasn't all that long ago; I couldn't find a quick reference to it though. Left cold since it's the mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Electro-shock therapy isn't very far behind lobotomies when it comes to draconian treatments of people. Electroshock (Electroconvulsive therapy) does apparently have some benefits in certain cases of depression. The last lobotomy I remember reading about was a woman suffering from depression who wanted it performed and it wasn't all that long ago; I couldn't find a quick reference to it though. Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is a procedure, done under general anesthesia, in which small electric currents are passed through the brain, intentionally triggering a brief seizure. ECT seems to cause changes in brain chemistry that can quickly reverse symptoms of certain mental health conditions. ECT often works when other treatments are unsuccessful and when the full course of treatment is completed, but it may not work for everyone. Much of the stigma attached to ECT is based on early treatments in which high doses of electricity were administered without anesthesia, leading to memory loss, fractured bones and other serious side effects. ECT is much safer today. Although ECT may still cause some side effects, it now uses electric currents given in a controlled setting to achieve the most benefit with the fewest possible risks. Left cold since it's the mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 It might not seem so draconian if they could tell exactly how it works, what it affects. Just saying it passes an electric current through the brain isn't much of an explanation. I know they can explain what the results often are, but I haven't heard why the results happen (other than they ran electricity through their head), and quantifying results or how hard to zap someone is still more of a guess than a scientific certainty. It is nothing close to the certainty of setting a broken bone. With all I have read about it, it seems more of an act of desperation and a "gee we really hope this will help" rather than the certainty of setting a broken bone. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:28:59 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did a research paper in college on the subject. A woman in my town began to suffer from post-partum depression, and her husband (a prominent physician at the time with significant influence) didn't want her around anymore, which further led to deeper depression. He had her committed and she spiraled down into a constantly medicated state. She tried to escape, violently if needed (who could blame her). Ultimately her constant escape attempts and attacking her captors led to a lobotomy. She was a veg after that. It was very sad and changed how I looked at "the system" for sure. The psychos will still do whatever the guy who committed you wants them to do to you, except surgical lobotomy is out of fashion today.  Innocent Man Held Two Years in Mental Institution for Denying He Was Someone Else |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:29:20 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be fair though, I'd rather have a lobotomy than crave dick.  |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:37:34 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It might not seem so draconian if they could tell exactly how it works, what it affects. Just saying it passes an electric current through the brain isn't much of an explanation. I know they can explain what the results often are, but I haven't heard why the results happen (other than they ran electricity through their head), and quantifying results or how hard to zap someone is still more of a guess than a scientific certainty. It is nothing close to the certainty of setting a broken bone. With all I have read about it, it seems more of an act of desperation and a "gee we really hope this will help" rather than the certainty of setting a broken bone. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Electro-shock therapy isn't very far behind lobotomies when it comes to draconian treatments of people. Electroshock (Electroconvulsive therapy) does apparently have some benefits in certain cases of depression. The last lobotomy I remember reading about was a woman suffering from depression who wanted it performed and it wasn't all that long ago; I couldn't find a quick reference to it though. Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is a procedure, done under general anesthesia, in which small electric currents are passed through the brain, intentionally triggering a brief seizure. ECT seems to cause changes in brain chemistry that can quickly reverse symptoms of certain mental health conditions. ECT often works when other treatments are unsuccessful and when the full course of treatment is completed, but it may not work for everyone. Much of the stigma attached to ECT is based on early treatments in which high doses of electricity were administered without anesthesia, leading to memory loss, fractured bones and other serious side effects. ECT is much safer today. Although ECT may still cause some side effects, it now uses electric currents given in a controlled setting to achieve the most benefit with the fewest possible risks. Left cold since it's the mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 It might not seem so draconian if they could tell exactly how it works, what it affects. Just saying it passes an electric current through the brain isn't much of an explanation. I know they can explain what the results often are, but I haven't heard why the results happen (other than they ran electricity through their head), and quantifying results or how hard to zap someone is still more of a guess than a scientific certainty. It is nothing close to the certainty of setting a broken bone. With all I have read about it, it seems more of an act of desperation and a "gee we really hope this will help" rather than the certainty of setting a broken bone. A lot of psychiatric medicines aren't fully understood yet either, otherwise they wouldn't have to play the guessing game with drugs and dosages to find what works. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:40:01 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Electroshock (Electroconvulsive therapy) does apparently have some benefits in certain cases of depression. The last lobotomy I remember reading about was a woman suffering from depression who wanted it performed and it wasn't all that long ago; I couldn't find a quick reference to it though. Left cold since it's the mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Electro-shock therapy isn't very far behind lobotomies when it comes to draconian treatments of people. Electroshock (Electroconvulsive therapy) does apparently have some benefits in certain cases of depression. The last lobotomy I remember reading about was a woman suffering from depression who wanted it performed and it wasn't all that long ago; I couldn't find a quick reference to it though. Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is a procedure, done under general anesthesia, in which small electric currents are passed through the brain, intentionally triggering a brief seizure. ECT seems to cause changes in brain chemistry that can quickly reverse symptoms of certain mental health conditions. ECT often works when other treatments are unsuccessful and when the full course of treatment is completed, but it may not work for everyone. Much of the stigma attached to ECT is based on early treatments in which high doses of electricity were administered without anesthesia, leading to memory loss, fractured bones and other serious side effects. ECT is much safer today. Although ECT may still cause some side effects, it now uses electric currents given in a controlled setting to achieve the most benefit with the fewest possible risks. Left cold since it's the mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 ECT is still done and can be very effective. I worked in an OR and they would be occasionally done I. The recovery room because an anesthesiologist is used. The patient is put under general anesthesia, a blood pressure cuff is put around an ankle, and muscle relaxers are given. The cuff on the ankle keeps the foot from being effected by the meds. When the current is applied a seizure starts. The body is still except the foot begins twitching. As soon as the foot is still, we know the seizure is over. It acts as a sort of brain reset. The pats I spoke to said it helps for up to 6 months or so. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:43:48 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It might not seem so draconian if they could tell exactly how it works, what it affects. Just saying it passes an electric current through the brain isn't much of an explanation. I know they can explain what the results often are, but I haven't heard why the results happen (other than they ran electricity through their head), and quantifying results or how hard to zap someone is still more of a guess than a scientific certainty. It is nothing close to the certainty of setting a broken bone. With all I have read about it, it seems more of an act of desperation and a "gee we really hope this will help" rather than the certainty of setting a broken bone. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Electro-shock therapy isn't very far behind lobotomies when it comes to draconian treatments of people. Electroshock (Electroconvulsive therapy) does apparently have some benefits in certain cases of depression. The last lobotomy I remember reading about was a woman suffering from depression who wanted it performed and it wasn't all that long ago; I couldn't find a quick reference to it though. Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is a procedure, done under general anesthesia, in which small electric currents are passed through the brain, intentionally triggering a brief seizure. ECT seems to cause changes in brain chemistry that can quickly reverse symptoms of certain mental health conditions. ECT often works when other treatments are unsuccessful and when the full course of treatment is completed, but it may not work for everyone. Much of the stigma attached to ECT is based on early treatments in which high doses of electricity were administered without anesthesia, leading to memory loss, fractured bones and other serious side effects. ECT is much safer today. Although ECT may still cause some side effects, it now uses electric currents given in a controlled setting to achieve the most benefit with the fewest possible risks. Left cold since it's the mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 It might not seem so draconian if they could tell exactly how it works, what it affects. Just saying it passes an electric current through the brain isn't much of an explanation. I know they can explain what the results often are, but I haven't heard why the results happen (other than they ran electricity through their head), and quantifying results or how hard to zap someone is still more of a guess than a scientific certainty. It is nothing close to the certainty of setting a broken bone. With all I have read about it, it seems more of an act of desperation and a "gee we really hope this will help" rather than the certainty of setting a broken bone. Well you know how we make jokes about people's wiring being broken..... Like a surprising amount of things in the medical field, researchers aren't sure or don't fully understand why things work the way they do- or don't. Or why some things work on some and not on others. It's not really something I know much about but I do know it's been studied as treatment for a variety of conditions and that some patients do report that it seems to help. There are electro-stimulators that work on certain types of seizures as well; usually the patient self administers the shock through an implanted device when they feel a seizure aura coming on.  On a side note, that may or may not be related since I seem to recall there was some theories that electroshock may help with "rewiring" the brain, there are ways to prove that psychedelics actually improve some conditions (neuroimaging/fMRI) so maybe there's something there? I have no idea really.  Before anyone gets bent out of shape, there is a difference between the old strap 'em down and hook 'em to a transformer days and today. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:45:16 PM EST
[#11]
Juicy Fruit...?
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:47:08 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lobotomies were the absolute worst of medical quackery, there was nothing properly "scientific" about it. Leave it to the GD anti-intellectual crowd to misrepresent yet another topic to reinforce their proud ignorance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Trust the science.  Leave it to the GD anti-intellectual crowd to misrepresent yet another topic to reinforce their proud ignorance. It won the Nobel Prize in medicine. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:55:10 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It won the Nobel Prize in medicine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Trust the science. Leave it to the GD anti-intellectual crowd to misrepresent yet another topic to reinforce their proud ignorance. It won the Nobel Prize in medicine. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:59:12 PM EST
[#14]
The Proper People on Youtube have toured a bunch of closed shuttered up old asylums. It's fascinating to see these facilities.
 Exploring a Massive Kirkbride Asylum - Amazing 19th Century Architecture |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 3:19:07 PM EST
[#15]
Anyone who has spent any time in an actual asylum/state hospital and seen some of the patients on the upper floors or alternate wing might argue that a lobotomy was preferable to whatever hell some of those people were going through. These days they tend to just keep the real nuts sedated. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that some people are irreparably broken. It probably beats Canada's solution too.
There are forms of brain tissue removal or destruction still performed, but they're rare. Examples (random link I found): https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-a-lobotomy |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 3:36:43 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone who has spent any time in an actual asylum/state hospital and seen some of the patients on the upper floors or alternate wing might argue that a lobotomy was preferable to whatever hell some of those people were going through. These days they tend to just keep the real nuts sedated. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that some people are irreparably broken. It probably beats Canada's solution too. There are forms of brain tissue removal or destruction still performed, but they're rare. Examples (random link I found): https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-a-lobotomy I don't know if. I ever became that far gone, I think I'd prefer that way out. I definitely wouldn't want people (or God forbid, the government) making that decision for others though, and that's where it will end up going wrong. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 3:40:56 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of psychiatric medicines aren't fully understood yet either, otherwise they wouldn't have to play the guessing game with drugs and dosages to find what works. Or, maybe different drugs/doses affect people differently. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 4:49:53 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol, but not scientific, right?  |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 6:58:33 PM EST
[#19]
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:10:07 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know if. I ever became that far gone, I think I'd prefer that way out. I definitely wouldn't want people (or God forbid, the government) making that decision for others though, and that's where it will end up going wrong. I wouldn't want to live like some of them either- they're alive, technically, but you see everything from catatonic behavior to just completely feral, naked, flinging poo, self harm, attacking anything and everything that gets close enough, etc. I definitely don't trust the government to make decisions about anything really, at all, but I don't know what the answer is- I'm not sure there really is one. They're human form, but you know in your head that there is zero chance they'll ever be anything but a threat to themselves and anyone near them and a huge financial drain on the taxpayers over the course of their confined existence. Seeing someone who is truly insane is both terrifying and fascinating at the same time. Luckily they're the exception, not the rule.
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:19:27 PM EST
[#21]
Good thing we don't have to worry about the .gov forcing harmful medical "treatments" anymore.
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:24:08 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yet it actually happened for decades and was performed by actual doctors. Absolute nothing scientific about that… Need I make a list of other stupid shit that scientists and doctors have presented as “good for us” over the decades? Hell, how many doctors today think it’s perfectly acceptable to butcher a child’s sex organs? Ignorance is thinking someone is infallible just because they have a couple fancy letters after their name. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lobotomies were the absolute worst of medical quackery, there was nothing properly "scientific" about it. Leave it to the GD anti-intellectual crowd to misrepresent yet another topic to reinforce their proud ignorance. Yet it actually happened for decades and was performed by actual doctors. Absolute nothing scientific about that… Need I make a list of other stupid shit that scientists and doctors have presented as “good for us” over the decades? Hell, how many doctors today think it’s perfectly acceptable to butcher a child’s sex organs? Ignorance is thinking someone is infallible just because they have a couple fancy letters after their name. True, the Hippocratic oath is meaningless now |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:43:53 PM EST
[#23]
Many years ago I saw a movie with jessica lang about an old movie star named Francis Farmer. Supposedly true story, she was put into a mental institution by her mother, eventually lobotomized. Then another movie “shutter island” leonardo got a lobotomy at the end of the flick. Don’t get put in a mental hospital
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:45:13 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Top Men. Uncanny how that first post thing works! |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:52:58 PM EST
[#25]
What's really ironic, even the Soviets viewed lobotomies as barbaric...going do far as banning them in the '50s based on "moral" grounds. Meanwhile, the US basically had Uber and Lyft style mobile lobotomy clinics traveling around.
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:54:42 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lobotomies were the absolute worst of medical quackery, there was nothing properly "scientific" about it. Leave it to the GD anti-intellectual crowd to misrepresent yet another topic to reinforce their proud ignorance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Trust the science. Leave it to the GD anti-intellectual crowd to misrepresent yet another topic to reinforce their proud ignorance. Your sarcasm meter is broken |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:55:45 PM EST
[#27]
I watched an old video of a lobotomy. Ice pick through the tear duct and then a quick scramble. Pretty disgusting.
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:57:43 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be fair though, I'd rather have a lobotomy than crave dick. See if you can get approved for a Fundraising thread. I’m in for $10. Nobody should have to live with that. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 7:59:49 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: She's got a new TV It's called an EKG I'd do anything To keep her in style Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I did a research paper in college on the subject. A woman in my town began to suffer from post-partum depression, and her husband (a prominent physician at the time with significant influence) didn't want her around anymore, which further led to deeper depression. He had her committed and she spiraled down into a constantly medicated state. She tried to escape, violently if needed (who could blame her). Ultimately her constant escape attempts and attacking her captors led to a lobotomy. She was a veg after that. It was very sad and changed how I looked at "the system" for sure. My girlfriend is a vegetable She lives in a hospital I'd do most anything To keep her alive It's called an EKG I'd do anything To keep her in style She’s got no arms or legs, Just wooden hooks and pegs, An I would do anything To keep her A-Live! |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 8:11:05 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lobotomies were the absolute worst of medical quackery, there was nothing properly "scientific" about it. Leave it to the GD anti-intellectual crowd to misrepresent yet another topic to reinforce their proud ignorance. Your claim seems completely inapplicable here and pretty reckless to write it off as you did. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 8:13:33 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Joe Kennedy had his mentally handicapped daughter lobotimized to keep her from embrassing the family. Rosemary Kennedy, IIRC. She spent her life (and died in 2005) at a care facility here in WI. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 8:14:12 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My girlfriend is a vegetable She lives in a hospital I'd do most anything To keep her alive Its called an EKG I'd do anything To keep her alive |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 8:17:30 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: She’s got no arms or legs, Just wooden hooks and pegs, An I would do anything To keep her A-Live! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I did a research paper in college on the subject. A woman in my town began to suffer from post-partum depression, and her husband (a prominent physician at the time with significant influence) didn't want her around anymore, which further led to deeper depression. He had her committed and she spiraled down into a constantly medicated state. She tried to escape, violently if needed (who could blame her). Ultimately her constant escape attempts and attacking her captors led to a lobotomy. She was a veg after that. It was very sad and changed how I looked at "the system" for sure. My girlfriend is a vegetable She lives in a hospital I'd do most anything To keep her alive It's called an EKG I'd do anything To keep her in style She’s got no arms or legs, Just wooden hooks and pegs, An I would do anything To keep her A-Live! I remember that Jody from Basic. We only marched to it a couple of times. No details. I just remember it. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 8:21:40 PM EST
[#34]
Sort of small potatoes on the unethical shit done during the cold war...
There was some serious fuckery in the 50s and 60s A pretty far from comprehensive list of fuckery There's a bunch of shit missing from that list that because it keeps being edited out. There's a group of chemical weapons experiments where they tried to determine the threshold dose of chemical agents. Like five people died... I think maybe they poof because parts are still classified. Not sure. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 8:38:04 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Joe Kennedy had his mentally handicapped daughter lobotimized to keep her from embrassing the family. https://allthatsinteresting.com/rosemary-kennedy |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 10:54:12 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My girlfriend is a vegetable She lives in a hospital I'd do most anything To keep her alive I heard she’s got her own TV. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 10:57:46 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Juicy Fruit...? A person of a certain persuasion with diarrhea? |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 11:02:35 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: She's got a new TV It's called an EKG I'd do anything To keep her in style She’s got no arms or legs All she’s got is hooks and pegs |
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Posted: 10/3/2023 5:53:10 AM EST
[#39]
Didn't most of those people go on to long careers in the House and Senate?
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