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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:03:48 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Complacency kills. If he was working a “dead line” he should have had grounding straps on. Yes the homeowner fucked up but in line work ground straps are important. We always hear about the warnings on back feeding the grid but it rarely happens. Real shame for your friend. 
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:04:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As someone who doesn't know much about the world of electricians....can you explain what happened here and what that is? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fricking morons with their double male ended homemade cords. Dipshits. If you have one of those cords, go cut an end off of it before you kill someone. As someone who doesn't know much about the world of electricians....can you explain what happened here and what that is? Generator has a female receptacle and you have a female receptacle in your garage or wherever where you might run a welder or whatever if you have power. To plug into that from generator to house receptacle you need 2 male ends. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:04:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If only there were some sort of battery powered device that let people work in the dark......  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Very bad news and my prayers go out to your friend op. This is why we must ensure proper installation of generators or any back up power source. I have a switch that cuts off the grid and I cannot use the generator with out it in the generator position. Not very expensive to install and anyone not using these are being negligent. I have one too. It's the main breaker in my breaker box. Doesn't take a lot of brain power to manually shut off one source of power before feeding with another source i.e. generator. I can see automatic switching for whole-house generators that come on when grid power fails. Then, by the time you get to the switch, the person is already fried. If only there were some sort of battery powered device that let people work in the dark...... . |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:04:44 PM EDT
[#4]
I’m curious as to how he established his clearance points and set his grounds. Was that line intentionally not in the clearance and he got within MAD? Or was it missed due to the chaos of restoration work?
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:05:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Relieved to read he's not actually dead. Electrocuted = dead. Don't mean to be nitpicky, but you may want to rephrase to shocked or zapped or something. Yep. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:05:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you gotta explain it was a sarcasm, then they missed it.. .Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Very bad news and my prayers go out to your friend op. This is why we must ensure proper installation of generators or any back up power source. I have a switch that cuts off the grid and I cannot use the generator with out it in the generator position. Not very expensive to install and anyone not using these are being negligent. I have one too. It's the main breaker in my breaker box. Doesn't take a lot of brain power to manually shut off one source of power before feeding with another source i.e. generator. I can see automatic switching for whole-house generators that come on when grid power fails. Then, by the time you get to the switch, the person is already fried. If only there were some sort of battery powered device that let people work in the dark...... .These days you never know. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:05:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Goddamn stupid homeowner. I have a generator and I won't ever plug it into the panel, I just run extension cords to the appliances I need to run. That's my plan. I may do something more elaborate in the future, but it's never been an issue. All I really need is to be able to hook up fridges and freezers (rotating between them) and charge batteries and phones and maybe run a couple of lamps and the like. At some point, it would be cool to have it feed the panel so I can just turn on the circuits I want to run, but an extension cord through a window works too. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:05:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll admit it, I haven't used my generator in the 2 years I've had it. I'm afraid that it would be possible foe me to set things wrong. I'd love a review of proper procedures. The electrician wired the box to go to the breaker panel, but no particular safety switch. Send me a message and we can talk on the phone. With some pictures I can figure out whats going and help you. @birddog1911 |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:05:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does feeding the grid not trip the breakers on the generator? Basically, the guy who is backfeeding needs to be the only electrical load present on that line - which is very unlikely. Typically, one distribution transformer feeds several customers, and the distribution line on the other side of it may feed thousands of customers. The chances of all of those other customers not being connected to the grid during a power failure is pretty small. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:06:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How damn hard is it to turn off the main breaker??? Exactly! I flip the main breaker off and flip the genny sub-panel on. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:06:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's terrible  I'm a retired electrician and when we worked on high voltage, 480, 4160 or 13,800 we installed grounding clamps on all phases so any back fed energy would immediately go to ground. Excuse my ignorance but do line workers do this also? Around here they are required to. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:07:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They do have ways to check. The problem is that they can check an find the lines dead. But someone can fire up a generator and back feed at any time. I sometimes see them ground the lines. But I've never seen them open up every switch/disconnect to individual transformers. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Stupid to back feed like that. I’m also surprised that they don’t have a way to safely check for voltage on the lines prior to working on them. Generally in industry you have a try step in the lockout process. I don’t know what is the practice for utilities. They do have ways to check. The problem is that they can check an find the lines dead. But someone can fire up a generator and back feed at any time. I sometimes see them ground the lines. But I've never seen them open up every switch/disconnect to individual transformers. If you don’t have a visible airbreak that is locked/tagged, grounds attached and tested to confirm de-energized…then it’s energized and minimum approach distance applies. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:07:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How damn hard is it to turn off the main breaker??? People are ignorant. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:07:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand 100% that a transfer switch is the proper way to do this, but in an emergency is shutting off the main breaker or throw switch leading to the house sufficient to prevent this? Ideally yes. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:08:19 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stupid to back feed like that. I’m also surprised that they don’t have a way to safely check for voltage on the lines prior to working on them. Generally in industry you have a try step in the lockout process. I don’t know what is the practice for utilities. I always thought they grounded what ever they were working on just in case some dipshit was back feeding. Smoke dipshit's generator rather than the lineman. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:08:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand 100% that a transfer switch is the proper way to do this, but in an emergency is shutting off the main breaker or throw switch leading to the house sufficient to prevent this? Interlocks work by physically not allowing the generator feed to be turned on unless the main breaker is shut off. Usually as simply as a piece of sheet metal that blocks the in feed breaker from turning on until it is slid out of the way. It can only slide out of the way by shutting off the main breaker. No way to forget to turn it off. Transfer switches are similar but they use an actual switch that physically switches the feed from the grid to the generator. They can be manual or automatic but either way, they can only be connected one or the other, not both. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:10:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An interlock and generator inlet receptacle is like $100. No reason not to have one if you are feeding a house with portable genny. This x87. I'd bet the guilty party's insurance won't cover any expenses if this device wasn't installed by a licensed electrician. But don't linemen check for voltage 10 different ways before working on stuff? Sucky situation. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:10:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's my plan. I may do something more elaborate in the future, but it's never been an issue. All I really need is to be able to hook up fridges and freezers (rotating between them) and charge batteries and phones and maybe run a couple of lamps and the like. At some point, it would be cool to have it feed the panel so I can just turn on the circuits I want to run, but an extension cord through a window works too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Goddamn stupid homeowner. I have a generator and I won't ever plug it into the panel, I just run extension cords to the appliances I need to run. That's my plan. I may do something more elaborate in the future, but it's never been an issue. All I really need is to be able to hook up fridges and freezers (rotating between them) and charge batteries and phones and maybe run a couple of lamps and the like. At some point, it would be cool to have it feed the panel so I can just turn on the circuits I want to run, but an extension cord through a window works too. Works great unless you have a well, furnace, AC,sump pumps, electric water heater, electric stove to name a few. Better to just feed the panel |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:10:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, but super UN-reliable that folks will remember. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:12:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very bad news and my prayers go out to your friend op. This is why we must ensure proper installation of generators or any back up power source. I have a switch that cuts off the grid and I cannot use the generator with out it in the generator position. Not very expensive to install and anyone not using these are being negligent. We have purs set up to be locked out if power is on. If we have an outage, I have to pull my main breaker into the house before starting the generator. When power is restored, I turn off the generator and reset the main breaker into the house. I have stressed it numerous times to the wife the order things MUST be done to turn on the generator and then switch back to power off the grid. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:12:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's my plan. I may do something more elaborate in the future, but it's never been an issue. All I really need is to be able to hook up fridges and freezers (rotating between them) and charge batteries and phones and maybe run a couple of lamps and the like. At some point, it would be cool to have it feed the panel so I can just turn on the circuits I want to run, but an extension cord through a window works too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Goddamn stupid homeowner. I have a generator and I won't ever plug it into the panel, I just run extension cords to the appliances I need to run. That's my plan. I may do something more elaborate in the future, but it's never been an issue. All I really need is to be able to hook up fridges and freezers (rotating between them) and charge batteries and phones and maybe run a couple of lamps and the like. At some point, it would be cool to have it feed the panel so I can just turn on the circuits I want to run, but an extension cord through a window works too. Gererator box  |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:12:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Shutting off the main prior to engaging the generator is effective, the problem lies in the process being dependent on a human being. People are notoriously unreliable under stress.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:14:04 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn, sorry to hear that. I don't know why they can't put something into the meter at the house, that when the incoming line drops out, it disconnects the house from feeding back. Doesn't seem to me that would be that hard to do and would protect the linemen from this asshat shit. Make so that if someone tries to feed back, it trips and they have to have the utility come re-start it--and fine them a couple of hundred dollars. They do. At least our local power company does, they'll install it for free. Plugs right into the meter slot and then the meter plugs into it. gives you a single plug covered with a weather cap. Just plug in the generator and go. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:15:09 PM EDT
[#24]
How is it possible to do that and not have the homeowner's gen set trying to run every single home connected on that system? And not being able to keep up or snapping a breaker in the unit?
Legit question. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:15:28 PM EDT
[#25]
This cannot physically happen with an Interlock.
Yet so many members here refuse to use them, and feel that they will never make a mistake like forgetting to throw the main disconnect... and continue to use suicide cords. Just like a negligent discharge - it only takes once to kill someone.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:15:40 PM EDT
[#26]
And that right there is the reason I have an interlock kit for mine.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:15:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Wife's family trade was line work. She's lost a couple uncles. One that was a backfeed incident lingered for a few days after getting hit.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:16:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. 240v was backfed into the transformer which energized the line and he got hit with high voltage then What's the lineman's credo, "if it isn't grounded, it's live"? I've only ran extension cords to whatever I wanted to power, never used a suicide cord. Oh, and 220/240, whatever it takes. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:17:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: homeowner is at fault. there will be consequences. i have a whole house generator professionally installed and it part of the install is a switch that cuts connectivity to the transformer before generator starts. what im curious about is for folks that have solar power backfed to grid how is that done to code to prevent issues like this? The solar power that is backfed to the grid required grid power to match the line frequency/phase. No incoming power, no out going power. This is the reason this is a bad idea for no power solutions. You would need a stand alone battery source that is powered by the panels to have power in a no power situation. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:18:53 PM EDT
[#30]
The homeowner should be charged, pay attention to this any of you that have just rigged up a genny to back feed.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:19:38 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The solar power that is backfed to the grid required grid power to match the line frequency/phase. No incoming power, no out going power. This is the reason this is a bad idea for no power solutions. You would need a stand alone battery source that is powered by the panels to have power in a no power situation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: homeowner is at fault. there will be consequences. i have a whole house generator professionally installed and it part of the install is a switch that cuts connectivity to the transformer before generator starts. what im curious about is for folks that have solar power backfed to grid how is that done to code to prevent issues like this? The solar power that is backfed to the grid required grid power to match the line frequency/phase. No incoming power, no out going power. This is the reason this is a bad idea for no power solutions. You would need a stand alone battery source that is powered by the panels to have power in a no power situation. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:20:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Works great unless you have a well, furnace, AC,sump pumps, electric water heater, electric stove to name a few. Better to just feed the panel Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Goddamn stupid homeowner. I have a generator and I won't ever plug it into the panel, I just run extension cords to the appliances I need to run. That's my plan. I may do something more elaborate in the future, but it's never been an issue. All I really need is to be able to hook up fridges and freezers (rotating between them) and charge batteries and phones and maybe run a couple of lamps and the like. At some point, it would be cool to have it feed the panel so I can just turn on the circuits I want to run, but an extension cord through a window works too. Works great unless you have a well, furnace, AC,sump pumps, electric water heater, electric stove to name a few. Better to just feed the panel No sump or well pumps here, and my generator isn't large and isn't 240v, so no HVAC, stove, etc. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:20:31 PM EDT
[#33]
I know guys who plug generators into their clothes dryer receptacles.
Same thing, right? It's back feeding, right? They claim it's perfectly fine. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:20:43 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generator has a female receptacle and you have a female receptacle in your garage or wherever where you might run a welder or whatever if you have power. To plug into that from generator to house receptacle you need 2 male ends. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fricking morons with their double male ended homemade cords. Dipshits. If you have one of those cords, go cut an end off of it before you kill someone. As someone who doesn't know much about the world of electricians....can you explain what happened here and what that is? Generator has a female receptacle and you have a female receptacle in your garage or wherever where you might run a welder or whatever if you have power. To plug into that from generator to house receptacle you need 2 male ends. Stuff like these images from the web:   |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:21:07 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:21:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know guys who plug generators into their clothes dryer receptacles. Same thing, right? It's back feeding, right? They claim it's perfectly fine. Unless they shut off their main breaker....it's back feeding the grid. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:22:05 PM EDT
[#37]
I run all the things I need by plugging them directly into the generator. The only thing I can't do that with is my furnace (because it is wired in). I bought a single circuit transfer switch and had it installed on the furnace by an electrician. It disallows me to make a mistake.
The switch and installation were around $200, total for both. (I just told the electrician to not make a special trip, swing by my place whenever he was next in the area, after a job). $200 well spent for the peace of mind. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:22:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People are ignorant. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How damn hard is it to turn off the main breaker??? People are ignorant. Just because the handle says its open doesn't necessarily mean the switch is open... Hardware fails. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:23:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know guys who plug generators into their clothes dryer receptacles. Same thing, right? It's back feeding, right? They claim it's perfectly fine. A transfer switch makes it impossible to cause a problem. If you forget to throw the switch from grid power to generator power, simply nothing happens. It isolates the panel to only one source at a time. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:23:34 PM EDT
[#40]
When I first moved here they had a generator building and there was one of those 3 foot long ancient switches you threw to turn the house off the power lines. Don't see them much anymore.
I have an interlock now. Had a bad 90mph straight line wind storm once and was without power for almost a week. I had the generator running and was outside and I saw the light on the pole come on. I ran back and it took a second to realise the power had come back on and was not my generator running the light. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:24:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn’t a line tech use grounding straps even if the line was supposed to be de-energized? They can glove and sleeve the line as long as it’s within the rating of their gloves but this depends on the utility as far as how high of a voltage they can go. Basically anything ungrounded should be treated as hot since backfeeds and induced voltages be real yo. Even grounded lines arent completely dead when you have things like induced voltage current loops. It’s a sad story but there were 2 negligent actions in this story |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:24:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. Is equipotential grounding a common thing on the utility side of things? I learned about it on the industrial side, I'm sure things are different. Utility guys are in double insulated booms for starters. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:25:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Send me a message and we can talk on the phone. With some pictures I can figure out whats going and help you. @birddog1911 @StaccatoC2 thanks, I'll take pictures this evening, and give you a call. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:26:03 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They do have ways to check. The problem is that they can check and find the lines dead. But someone can fire up a generator and back feed at any time. I sometimes see them ground the lines. But I've never seen them open up every switch/disconnect to individual transformers. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Stupid to back feed like that. I’m also surprised that they don’t have a way to safely check for voltage on the lines prior to working on them. Generally in industry you have a try step in the lockout process. I don’t know what is the practice for utilities. They do have ways to check. The problem is that they can check and find the lines dead. But someone can fire up a generator and back feed at any time. I sometimes see them ground the lines. But I've never seen them open up every switch/disconnect to individual transformers. One style of voltage detector:  |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:26:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have one too. It's the main breaker in my breaker box. Doesn't take a lot of brain power to manually shut off one source of power before feeding with another source i.e. generator. I can see automatic switching for whole-house generators that come on when grid power fails. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Very bad news and my prayers go out to your friend op. This is why we must ensure proper installation of generators or any back up power source. I have a switch that cuts off the grid and I cannot use the generator with out it in the generator position. Not very expensive to install and anyone not using these are being negligent. I have one too. It's the main breaker in my breaker box. Doesn't take a lot of brain power to manually shut off one source of power before feeding with another source i.e. generator. I can see automatic switching for whole-house generators that come on when grid power fails. It is not about brain power. Eventually, you will forget. I have 30 years experience in critical safety/precision manufacturing and no amount of training or brain power will prevent people from making mistakes. It happens. Swallow your pride and install the proper safety equipment. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:26:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shutting off the main prior to engaging the generator is effective, the problem lies in the process being dependent on a human being. People are notoriously unreliable under stress. Typically, there's also some load management that needs to be done. You don't want your 2KW generator attempting to run your 20 KW tankless water heater...  That's why having a procedure list is a good idea - Things to disconnect before using generator power, and things to disconnect or reconfigure before restoring utility power. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:26:14 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's my plan. I may do something more elaborate in the future, but it's never been an issue. All I really need is to be able to hook up fridges and freezers (rotating between them) and charge batteries and phones and maybe run a couple of lamps and the like. At some point, it would be cool to have it feed the panel so I can just turn on the circuits I want to run, but an extension cord through a window works too. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:26:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, but super UN-reliable that folks will remember. the layout of my panel doesn't lend itself to lock switch. i use physical breaker locks and have a checklist taped to the door to use before switching over. the breaker for the genset NEVER goes hot before the lockout is on the main. i trust myself to take the time to get it right and i manually test things every quarter. this isn't rocket science but when you need a generator you are already stressed and here likely sweating your balls off. Missing something is a real danger. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:27:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Relieved to read he's not actually dead. Electrocuted = dead. Don't mean to be nitpicky, but you may want to rephrase to shocked or zapped or something. Not according to Websters. "Killed or severely injured" |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:28:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesn't meet code, but you can just open the main breaker to isolate it from the grid right? All humans error. |
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