User Panel
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:30:39 PM EDT
[#1]
That is crazy to me that a random homeowner can affect whether that line is hot. Seems like there should be some lockout procedure that fail-safes against homeowners doing random shit
 I'm not an electrician, but spend a lot of time inside robot/automation cells. Lockout procedures are gospel. You can only count on yourself when it comes to safety procedures.... |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:31:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's terrible  I'm a retired electrician and when we worked on high voltage, 480, 4160 or 13,800 we installed grounding clamps on all phases so any back fed energy would immediately go to ground. Excuse my ignorance but do line workers do this also? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Correct. 240v was backfed into the transformer which energized the line and he got hit with high voltage then. I'm a retired electrician and when we worked on high voltage, 480, 4160 or 13,800 we installed grounding clamps on all phases so any back fed energy would immediately go to ground. Excuse my ignorance but do line workers do this also? Image of ground "clusters":  @Foxxz Sorry about your friend.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:32:53 PM EDT
[#3]
I have always wondered how a 10k or so generator powers the grid. My well pump kicks on and it about shuts mine off if anything else is on. How do you backfeed the line and not hear the generator is bogged down?
Glad he's alive and hope he has a good recovery. No excuse not to have a disconnect switch. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:33:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not according to Websters. "Killed or severely injured" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Relieved to read he's not actually dead. Electrocuted = dead. Don't mean to be nitpicky, but you may want to rephrase to shocked or zapped or something. Not according to Websters. "Killed or severely injured" Woke Webster likes to view our language as "evolving" when people are misusing words. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/electrocute electrocute [ ih-lek-truh-kyoot ] verb (used with object), e·lec·tro·cut·ed, e·lec·tro·cut·ing. to kill by electricity. to execute (a criminal) by electricity, as in an electric chair. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:33:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How damn hard is it to turn off the main breaker??? This !!! |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:33:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is crazy to me that a random homeowner can affect whether that line is hot. Seems like there should be some lockout procedure that fail-safes against homeowners doing random shit I'm not an electrician, but spend a lot of time inside robot/automation cells. Lockout procedures are gospel. You can only count on yourself when it comes to safety procedures.... Not an electrician in the least. Also guessing energizing one side of a transformer going the other way = bad things down the line. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:35:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Interlocks
Interlocks Interlocks Sorry about your friend. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:39:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Power comes in on a wire. Power can go out on the same wire unless some physical breaker/switch/interlock is thrown in between the house and the rest of the power grid. Not an electrician in the least. Also guessing energizing one side of a transformer going the other way = bad things down the line. Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:39:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Even old panels or panels that dont work for transfer switches @beerslayer can be safely done with a new transfer panel. Basically a sub panel with 2 feeds inter locked, one from the gen, one from the main panel. Then you relocate the circuits you want to the transfer panel.
This is ideal as if done properly you can just hit the breakers and whats in the panel works. It does not fed everything in the house, just what circuits you move to the transfer panel, Mine has my well, kitchen and living lights and plugs, bedroom, sump pump, fridge plus a few other others. Most houses you can live pretty normal with 5-7 circuits. The good thing about this, and I just went thru it from a storm. When the main power comes back on, all the stuff that was not working started to. I was not home when the power came back, the wife called me and said the stove power just beeped ( gas stove ) saying power loss. Which meant the power was back ( just how it happened to work in my set up ) |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:42:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have always wondered how a 10k or so generator powers the grid. My well pump kicks on and it about shuts mine off if anything else is on. How do you backfeed the line and not hear the generator is bogged down? Glad he's alive and hope he has a good recovery. No excuse not to have a disconnect switch. The impedance of the transformer may not normally allow full flow out, but enough to put a charge on the line. Now if your neighbors are on the same transformer they will get your power, as they are attached to the same terminals in the transformer and they should make it blow. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:42:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. ...guy was a total douche-canoe. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:42:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: The problem is that they can check and find the lines dead. But someone can fire up a generator and back feed at any time. Happened to one of our guys years ago - he was DRT.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:42:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It not only doesn't meet code, but it can result in what happened in the OP. Don't do it. Get a transfer switch. All humans error. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It doesn't meet code, but you can just open the main breaker to isolate it from the grid right? All humans error. Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:43:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? I live in a very rural area adjacent to the national forest. When I moved here 25 years ago a number of poles in the national forest still had glass insulators. Progress is slow in a number of areas. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:43:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Sucks for the lineman. Homeowner should be in jail and have the main to his house permanently disconnected.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:43:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Power comes in on a wire. Power can go out on the same wire unless some physical breaker/switch/interlock is thrown in between the house and the rest of the power grid. Not an electrician in the least. Also guessing energizing one side of a transformer going the other way = bad things down the line. Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? They would have to lock out every house. What they do is ground all the wires together. If someone back feeds, it will blow fuses. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:44:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It doesn't meet code, but you can just open the main breaker to isolate it from the grid right? All humans error. Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. This |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:44:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the layout of my panel doesn't lend itself to lock switch. i use physical breaker locks and have a checklist taped to the door to use before switching over. the breaker for the genset NEVER goes hot before the lockout is on the main. i trust myself to take the time to get it right and i manually test things every quarter. this isn't rocket science but when you need a generator you are already stressed and here likely sweating your balls off. Missing something is a real danger. Miss tagged you above, doing it here @The_beer_Slayer |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:47:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This cannot physically happen with an Interlock. Yet so many members here refuse to use them, and feel that they will never make a mistake like forgetting to throw the main disconnect... and continue to use suicide cords. Just like a negligent discharge - it only takes once to kill someone. I used to wonder why they were called suicide cords. A electrician friend set mine up for me, wiring a dryer outlet next to my panel. I laminated an instruction sheet and attached it to the panel and in addition to shutting off the main breaker first, then turning off all breakers in the box, it included attaching the cord to the genny and the outlet before cranking up the generator - so the energized male end was never exposed. The connection on the plug of the cord became loose and the short destroyed a microwave. I had another electrician friend help me do it the right way. Now the interlock prevents the genny from powering the panel until the main is off. Glad I have it done that way now. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:49:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Truely sucks!!!!!! WE have a backup system, but had it installed by a licensed electrician. System is set up to power only the house or supply power for the local Company.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:54:14 PM EDT
[#21]
If my 22k generac is professionally installed, is this a concern I should be aware of?
18Z50 |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:54:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Miss tagged you above, doing it here @The_beer_Slayer i will be installing a transfer panel eventually but it will be a whole house system not a few circuits. sadly this is going to cost me upwards os 2k for everything installed at todays insane prices. this absolutely CAN be done safely manually and has been for years before those panels were a real thing at the consumer level. It does however take a serious consideration for planning and procedures and the ability to document and follow them when using this equipment. Which is exactly why i have a checklist and physical lockouts marked and checked off prior to opening the gen breaker and starting it. ideal no? a true transfer panel is ideal and it removes the chance of a brain failure. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:55:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It doesn't meet code, but you can just open the main breaker to isolate it from the grid right? All humans error. Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:56:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. I have what I think is a "transfer switch". I had an electrician install it. It is installed only my furnace and only powers the furnace. It has two positions, normal and generator. In the event of a power outage, I plug an extension cord from my generator into that switch (the switch has a male outlet). I then flip the switch from normal to generator. If the power comes back on, I can just flip the switch back to normal. As I understand, this disallows me from back feeding, as it does not allow the electricity from my generator to flow into my panel, only the furnace. At the same time, it does not allow my furnace to receive power from both sources at the same time. Everything else I just unplug from the wall outlet and plug the appliance into my generator directly. Here is the switch that I use for my furnace: https://ezgeneratorswitch.com/ |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:58:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If my 22k generac is professionally installed, is this a concern I should be aware of? 18Z50 It should have been installed with an interlock switch....so it shouldn't be an issue. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 12:59:15 PM EDT
[#26]
This is what happens when dumbasses fail to properly install transfer switches.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:05:41 PM EDT
[#27]
the generator guy needs jail time.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:06:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Power comes in on a wire. Power can go out on the same wire unless some physical breaker/switch/interlock is thrown in between the house and the rest of the power grid. Not an electrician in the least. Also guessing energizing one side of a transformer going the other way = bad things down the line. Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? The power company does not have a means to disconnect individual customers. At least not yet. The day could come when meters could come with a disconnecting means built in but I would hazzard that would only be used for non-payment issues. Closest thing the utility has is single/three phase line recloser on the distribution lines and a lot of those are not operable by scada. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:07:38 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If my 22k generac is professionally installed, is this a concern I should be aware of? 18Z50 No. Those would have a manual or automatic whole home transfer switch as part of the solution. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:09:23 PM EDT
[#30]
I’d heard about problems like that. I bought a small generator post Sandy. Enough to run the fridge, freezer, or blower fan on the propane fireplace. That’s it. Plenty of long extension cords (110v only). It will go direct to the appliances. No chance of a fuckup on my part with the power lines
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:11:02 PM EDT
[#31]
I have a interlock but if I didn't and I HAD to have power I would shut the main AND pull the meter/bulb, never trust just the main... it's easy to flip...
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:11:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the difference? Not smart ass, don't know and asking. I have what I think is a "transfer switch". I had an electrician install it. It is installed only my furnace and only powers the furnace. It has two positions, normal and generator. In the event of a power outage, I plug an extension cord from my generator into that switch (the switch has a male outlet). I then flip the switch from normal to generator. If the power comes back on, I can just flip the switch back to normal. As I understand, this disallows me from back feeding, as it does not allow the electricity from my generator to flow into my panel, only the furnace. At the same time, it does not allow my furnace to receive power from both sources at the same time. Everything else I just unplug from the wall outlet and plug the appliance into my generator directly. Here is the switch that I use for my furnace: https://ezgeneratorswitch.com/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Get an interlock. Transfer switches are a waste of time and money for a portable backfeed solution. I have what I think is a "transfer switch". I had an electrician install it. It is installed only my furnace and only powers the furnace. It has two positions, normal and generator. In the event of a power outage, I plug an extension cord from my generator into that switch (the switch has a male outlet). I then flip the switch from normal to generator. If the power comes back on, I can just flip the switch back to normal. As I understand, this disallows me from back feeding, as it does not allow the electricity from my generator to flow into my panel, only the furnace. At the same time, it does not allow my furnace to receive power from both sources at the same time. Everything else I just unplug from the wall outlet and plug the appliance into my generator directly. Here is the switch that I use for my furnace: https://ezgeneratorswitch.com/ This is fine - if you ONLY need/want to power a specific branch circuit during an outage. Sometimes this can be the lowest cost solution to meet the direct requirement. However, Interlocks installed into the main panel offer WAY more flexibility and do not limit the number of branch circuit options. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:13:27 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I get that, but how can the power company not have some overriding lockout to account for the unaccounted for homeowner? You want the power companies to spend billions of dollars to prevent the rare dumbfuck from back feeding the system? In my neighborhood, every two houses have their own transformer so it would be a least 50 lockouts, if transformer mounted. 100 if mounted on each house. That is a lot of extra up front cost an even more maintenance cost. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:13:30 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A local guy with 25 yrs in somehow had his bucket truck fuck up.His bucket swung into a line and it layed across his back. He had both arms amputated at the shoulder..?? Weird. I know a guy in GA that lost both arm at the shoulder due to something similar. Guess it's not that uncommon. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:15:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How damn hard is it to turn off the main breaker??? |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:15:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is fine - if you ONLY need/want to power a specific branch circuit during an outage. Sometimes this can be the lowest cost solution to meet the direct requirement. However, Interlocks installed into the main panel offer WAY more flexibility and do not limit the number of branch circuit options. One day I will have a whole house genset...one day.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:17:04 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why no equipotential grounding? Although I don't know if that would have popped any kind of protection device in that scenario. Is equipotential grounding a common thing on the utility side of things? I learned about it on the industrial side, I'm sure things are different. Utility guys are in double insulated booms for starters. Yes, equipotential grounding is very common in the utility industry. There was a similar incident at my work about a month ago, unfortunately it resulted in a fatality. Rules, procedures, and PPE exist for a reason. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:18:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which is the point of a proper interlock. You can't NOT remember... It only allows for the main breaker to be on while the generator breaker is off, or the main breaker to be off while the generator breaker is on. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes, but super UN-reliable that folks will remember. Set that aside, if I have a generator connected through my panel I’d want the correct switchgear to ensure I’m only paying to power my house and not the grid. I can’t imagine deciding against an interlock because it’s an extra few bucks. Or doing that work without realizing the need for one… which would mean I have no business doing that work in the first place. ETA: “work” being as menial as adding a male adapter to an extension cord. Shoddy DIY electrical work scares the shit out me. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:18:12 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. What, if any, criminal charges are there for the homeowner? |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:21:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got it. Yeah my generator solution isn't big enough to power a bunch of my circuits and as you said, a full solution at the panel is more costly. One day I will have a whole house genset...one day. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is fine - if you ONLY need/want to power a specific branch circuit during an outage. Sometimes this can be the lowest cost solution to meet the direct requirement. However, Interlocks installed into the main panel offer WAY more flexibility and do not limit the number of branch circuit options. One day I will have a whole house genset...one day. Generator size isn't really THAT important - depending on what you want to power. For instance - in a winter power outage we primarily need to power our natural gas furnace, and two refrigerators to keep the food from spoiling. A small 2500W inverter generator will handle this just fine as the sustained load is under 1000W. However, since we use an interlock, I can also power all the lights in my home (LED) with almost no additional wattage load, along with my internet router/modem equipment and charge phones and iPad at their normal locations, and run a laptop or two, all without having any impact on the ability to run the furnace and fridges. It is the difference between just having heat, or living mostly as normal. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:26:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless they shut off their main breaker....it's back feeding the grid. Did not know enough then to ask. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:30:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generator size isn't really THAT important - depending on what you want to power. For instance - in a winter power outage we primarily need to power our natural gas furnace, and two refrigerators to keep the food from spoiling. A small 2500W inverter generator will handle this just fine as the sustained load is under 1000W. However, since we use an interlock, I can also power all the lights in my home (LED) with almost no additional wattage load, along with my internet router/modem equipment and charge phones and iPad at their normal locations, and run a laptop or two, all without having any impact on the ability to run the furnace and fridges. It is the difference between just having heat, or living mostly as normal. I figured that's the bare essentials to keep me reasonably happy....as long as it's not the summer.  Powering my central A/C is out of the question with my genset.That's the real goal but if I am going to get a generator big enough to do that, might as well just go all in and get a whole house unit that powers the whole panel. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:32:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Human error is human error .
Otherwise insurance and jails wouldn't exist. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:36:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Was this on a single customer line? I’ve always heard about the backfeed but in reality you would be energizing everybody’s transformer, from what, a 30 or 50 amp breaker? It would immediately kick that breaker, especially if it’s an inverter genny. Think about trying to power multiple houses with 50 amps. I assume there is an automatic relay that cuts off all the solar panels backfeeding? Is there a chance this was actually a live line from another backfeed source? Most lines are looped back and take 2 places to kill it.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:49:40 PM EDT
[#45]
We don't have any disconnect on our house. Of course we just run cords from the generator to whatever that needs power.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:57:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Unfortunately some people are too stupid to throw the service disconnect and only the transfer switch.
Too bad the line power was not restored and frag his generator. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 1:58:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Although I'm not recommending it, one way to isolate your home from the electrical grid is to pull the electric meter, and keep it indoors. Make sure all the breakers are shut off when you reinstall the meter, and that you're not grounded.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:00:02 PM EDT
[#48]
There's no way to tell someone is back feeding? I am electrically dumb
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:00:04 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Although I'm not recommending it, one way to isolate your home from the electrical grid is to pull the electric meter, and keep it indoors. Make sure all the breakers are shut off when you reinstall the meter, and that you're not grounded. It is illegal to pull your own meter here, and in many other locations. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 2:00:49 PM EDT
[#50]
Theres been several great questions about what happened and how it happened. Unfortunately, I've posted all the info I have right now and thats all second hand. I don't know when or if I'll hear anything further about the particulars. I've been keeping an eye on the local new sources to see if it gets reported.
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