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Posted: 7/18/2022 7:40:30 PM EDT
[#1]
That is awful.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 7:49:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: well that's fucked up. They should find the homeowner and slap his dick in the dirt. I assume the 240 backfed to the transformer? Seen a YT vid about that and how a home owner shouldn't do it themselves. Looks like he was right. Hope the guy recovers fully. Prayer's sent |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:16:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Ok, here's a q for the experts.
Say I'm the dumbass in question and have connected my 6Kw generator to the grid. Why doesn't that trip my gen's breaker? Especially if the gen is running at half or more capacity? It's going out to at least one transformer, then that transformer's powering other transformers that are doing their duties. Why doesn't my gen trip or my lamp cord suicide cord blow? |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:22:11 PM EDT
[#4]
This is not my area of expertise.
I had understood that if a homeowner is producing excess electricity, say from solar or whatever, the power company is obligated to buy it back?? How would that be handled if said grid was "down" except for what that home owner is feeding in? How would they protect a lineman such as in the OP? How is that different than someone with a generator? I have a generator but would only be used to plug my frig and freezer into. I've no use to run the rest of my house with it. We go Daniel Boone when the power goes out. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:32:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, here's a q for the experts. Say I'm the dumbass in question and have connected my 6Kw generator to the grid. Why doesn't that trip my gen's breaker? Especially if the gen is running at half or more capacity? It's going out to at least one transformer, then that transformer's powering other transformers that are doing their duties. Why doesn't my gen trip or my lamp cord suicide cord blow? Already answered a bunch of times, but the thread is moving fast. You're making a huge assumption on what the connected load would be. There tons of possible scenarios to make backfeed happen. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:34:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is not my area of expertise. I had understood that if a homeowner is producing excess electricity, say from solar or whatever, the power company is obligated to buy it back?? How would that be handled if said grid was "down" except for what that home owner is feeding in? How would they protect a lineman such as in the OP? How is that different than someone with a generator? I have a generator but would only be used to plug my frig and freezer into. I've no use to run the rest of my house with it. We go Daniel Boone when the power goes out. Quote HistoryQuoted: This is not my area of expertise. I had understood that if a homeowner is producing excess electricity, say from solar or whatever, the power company is obligated to buy it back?? How would that be handled if said grid was "down" except for what that home owner is feeding in? How would they protect a lineman such as in the OP? How is that different than someone with a generator? I have a generator but would only be used to plug my frig and freezer into. I've no use to run the rest of my house with it. We go Daniel Boone when the power goes out. Grid tie equipment has sensing circuitry to detect if the grid is down - sometimes referred to as "anti-islanding." As in; you home is now an electrical island. Grid tie inverters shut off in that event and won't power your home or backfeed even if the sun is shining. Quoted: Ok, here's a q for the experts. Say I'm the dumbass in question and have connected my 6Kw generator to the grid. Why doesn't that trip my gen's breaker? Especially if the gen is running at half or more capacity? It's going out to at least one transformer, then that transformer's powering other transformers that are doing their duties. Why doesn't my gen trip or my lamp cord suicide cord blow? In some circumstances the breaker on your generator would trip for exactly that reason. But if theres a break in the power line before it gets to your neighbor's transformer down the road then all the lines between your house and the the break could be energized and producing no load on the genny. I don't know much about linemen but they might assume everything after the break is de-energized and start repairs on it without checking and get zapped. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:37:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But you can't even see the main breaker until you get the generator fired up so that the lights are back on. Then, by the time you get to the switch, the person is already fried. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Very bad news and my prayers go out to your friend op. This is why we must ensure proper installation of generators or any back up power source. I have a switch that cuts off the grid and I cannot use the generator with out it in the generator position. Not very expensive to install and anyone not using these are being negligent. I have one too. It's the main breaker in my breaker box. Doesn't take a lot of brain power to manually shut off one source of power before feeding with another source i.e. generator. I can see automatic switching for whole-house generators that come on when grid power fails. Then, by the time you get to the switch, the person is already fried. Flashlights. Turning the main breaker of is step #1. No way in hell would I even hook up the generator, much less power up, without turning off the main breaker. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:37:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Friend of a friend is a lineman of 20 years. Last night he was working on a high voltage line that was de-energized. His leg hit or got close to a line and he was electrocuted. He has second and third degree burns and is still alive but the damage is severe. The line was energized due to a homeowner backfeeding their generator into the grid. The dude has a wife and kids. Even if he makes it he'll never be the same. Will add links if the incident makes the news. I'm posting this because there are many DIY'ers on this forum and the topic of generators comes up frequently. Was there a news flash on this? Where did it happen and how was it known to be a homeowner? There are plenty of industry backup generators that have the power to do that if the transfer switch fails. Last place I worked had a 6 cylinder diesel generator to power essential services. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:43:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Hope the fuckwads who were running their genny into the line lose their fucking home in the lawsuit.
Too many douchebag LARPing asshats cause real problems for others. Electricity is one of those things you dont fool with. (That, and small asian chicks with scabs on their breasts) |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:44:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How damn hard is it to turn off the main breaker???  Exactly! Plus it’s not like it’s huge money to do an interlock. I am sorry about your friend, OP. Electricity is no joke. Had a co-worker get burned by shorting a battery string in a remote to the cabinet via his watch band. Had to get burn treatments on his wrist for three months. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:45:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was there a news flash on this? Where did it happen and how was it known to be a homeowner? There are plenty of industry backup generators that have the power to do that if the transfer switch fails. Last place I worked had a 6 cylinder diesel generator to power essential services. I don't want to give out a few details as everything I got was second hand and this was the account I got. I have been keeping an eye out for any news articles on it. I was involved with the installation of a 350kva backup generator. It used what is known as a "closed transition transfer switch." That is, when power was out the generator would start and the transfer switch would kick over to the generator. After mains power was restored the generator would rotate and sync phase with the mains and momentarily bridge the generator to the grid before breaking connection with the generator. This was to prevent the momentary flicker you'd otherwise get with a standard transfer switch. The installation of this type of switchgear was documented and approved by the local utility so they could take proper safety precautions. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:52:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @p3590 say you have a 50 amp outlet on your generator, and have an 8/3 SO cord made up with a 30 amp male dryer plug on the other end. Those 10ga wires SHOULD be protected by the 30 amp breaker now being backfed in the panel; but you still have the weak link in the chain in between a 50a breaker on the genset, a properly sized cord, and an undersized outlet and wire to the panel. Let's put it this way, some people might feel fine hooking one up this way. I wouldn't. It is an assumption of yours that the genset breaker is 50A. If it is, you'd need an electric stove outlet or, better, a NEMA twist lock receptical rated for it, and 6/3 or heavier cable. I'm personally fine hooking up things the way I'd do industrially, using LOTO. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 8:58:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's terrible  I'm a retired electrician and when we worked on high voltage, 480, 4160 or 13,800 we installed grounding clamps on all phases so any back fed energy would immediately go to ground. Excuse my ignorance but do line workers do this also? First thing I thought as well . The circuit breakers on gen set should trip out as well. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:00:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be clear, your describing an interlock or a lockout, which i use. A transfer switch is like a sub panel that only allows the use of certain circuits. Incorrect you can get a transfer switch to power your entire panel they can be both manual and automatic |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:01:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @MontstrSp It is an assumption of yours that the genset breaker is 50A. If it is, you'd need an electric stove outlet or, better, a NEMA twist lock receptical rated for it, and 6/3 or heavier cable. I'm personally fine hooking up things the way I'd do industrially, using LOTO. I installed and sold many generators and transfer switches years ago. It's your assumption that your average schmuck cares about NEMA connections and amp ratings. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:03:17 PM EDT
[#16]
It doesn't even have to be a backfed generator to do this sort of thing. Mutual inductance zapped one of our contract guys this year. He will be OK. Mutual inductance is when a live power line is adjacent to a dead line for some distance. The field from the energized line can induce a voltage on the dead line. That's why you got to ground everything. Also, some guys I've chatted with prefer to do live line work, they feel it's safer and they don't have to screw around with grounding.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:07:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s amazing the number of people that think that this not a big deal. They always say they will cut the main but the fact is people forget and screw up all the time. An interlock or transfer switch is the only way to go. It's not always cost effective. I run my barn of the main panel and have the generator plug in my barn. No way go fit an interlock kit into the system I have. Sure I could trench a new line 150' and add an interlock kit to that exclusive line for the generator.... Or I could just flip the main breaker for free. I have at least printed off and laminated a startup/shutdown procedure though and always use that to make sure I follow the correct steps, even though I know what I'm doing and have a ton of experience with electrical work. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:13:57 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:20:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Sorry about your buddy, but the ugly truth of the matter is he made a rookie mistake and almost paid for it with his life.
Not excusing the guy with the generator, but I'm confident a lineman has procedures to test for and prevent working on energized equipment. Hell, I'm just telecom, and I have two voltage detectors, rubber gloves, rubber blanket, etc. If I got lit up, it is because I didn't follow safety procedures. Electricity is dangerous. And like firearms, we tend to get complacent with it over time. All it takes is one careless moment. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:21:04 PM EDT
[#20]
That fucking sucks big time. Electricity is an interesting subject. There appears to be so many variables that determine whether or not you’re going to get killed by electricity that it’s just a roll of the dice.
Some folks get what would be deemed a small “dose,” and they get killed. Others get hit by fucking lightning and receive a couple of burns, but are otherwise okay. If anyone listens to Shawn Ryan’s podcast, and if you heard DJ Shipley’s story about having been electrocuted, you’d know that fella is pretty fucking indestructible. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:25:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I installed and sold many generators and transfer switches years ago. It's your assumption that your average schmuck cares about NEMA connections and amp ratings. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @MontstrSp It is an assumption of yours that the genset breaker is 50A. If it is, you'd need an electric stove outlet or, better, a NEMA twist lock receptical rated for it, and 6/3 or heavier cable. I'm personally fine hooking up things the way I'd do industrially, using LOTO. I installed and sold many generators and transfer switches years ago. It's your assumption that your average schmuck cares about NEMA connections and amp ratings. This is a lot like reloading. It's dangerous to the average schmuck to deviate beyond basics. They may well quadruple charge a .357 with a fast powder and kill the person next to them at an indoor range. I'm not going to reccomend taking an unknown fast powder and working up loads, but a careful person can do it safely. My guess is <5 linemen in the U.S. are killed from backfed generators a year. It's about the number of people that are killed by someone else's reloads. I'd rather people reading this have a healthy respect for separating their generator from incoming power than tell them its beyond them. Obviously, in a big enough catastrophic event, people will do it anyway. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:29:19 PM EDT
[#22]
ZERO excuse on the homeowner part. I had a setup for probably 15 years that didn’t include a main breaker lockout to use the generator and i never once backfed the commercial power line cause I’m not a dumbass.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:35:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My position is the average schmuck needs a professionally installed transfer switch. This is a lot like reloading. It's dangerous to the average schmuck to deviate beyond basics. They may well quadruple charge a .357 with a fast powder and kill the person next to them at an indoor range. I'm not going to reccomend taking an unknown fast powder and working up loads, but a careful person can do it safely. My guess is <5 linemen in the U.S. are killed from backfed generators a year. It's about the number of people that are killed by someone else's reloads. I'd rather people reading this have a healthy respect for separating their generator from incoming power than tell them its beyond them. Obviously, in a big enough catastrophic event, people will do it anyway. Correct, I agree. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:36:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ZERO excuse on the homeowner part. I had a setup for probably 15 years that didn’t include a main breaker lockout to use the generator and i never once backfed the commercial power line cause I’m not a dumbass. And you are incapable of making mistakes too, right? |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:37:57 PM EDT
[#25]
It’s pure negligence. I take responsibility for my actions. Especially something as important as electricity.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:38:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the layout of my panel doesn't lend itself to lock switch. i use physical breaker locks and have a checklist taped to the door to use before switching over. the breaker for the genset NEVER goes hot before the lockout is on the main. i trust myself to take the time to get it right and i manually test things every quarter. this isn't rocket science but when you need a generator you are already stressed and here likely sweating your balls off. Missing something is a real danger. Why not install a manual transfer switch? |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:39:14 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s pure negligence. I take responsibility for my actions. Especially something as important as electricity. I'm sure he felt the same way. Now, he will take responsibility for his dumb decision to not use an interlock. Tick tock buddy, tick tock. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:42:55 PM EDT
[#28]
I don’t let myself get complacent. I’m super paranoid. Half the time i have to double check that i turned the oven off or locked the front door.
 It’s torture owning Glocks. I have to check the chamber 3 times before I’ll dry fire and break them down to clean. 
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:48:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very bad news and my prayers go out to your friend op. This is why we must ensure proper installation of generators or any back up power source. I have a switch that cuts off the grid and I cannot use the generator with out it in the generator position. Not very expensive to install and anyone not using these are being negligent. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:48:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m also surprised that they don’t have a way to safely check for voltage on the lines prior to working on them. Generally in industry you have a try step in the lockout process. I don’t know what is the practice for utilities. I don't know either. For all I know, there could be just such a check .... and I would wager there actually is. Problem is, though, what if (censored) homeowner powers up and back feeds after that check is done? Unless you have continuous monitoring, your check only tells you that the line wasn't hot when the check was done. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:50:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not install a manual transfer switch? Cost. A suicide cord is $30. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 9:57:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You'd need a switch within the meter itself to cut line power. It would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to implement and take decades. A meter is nothing more than a set of CTs on a network to read power coming in and at what rate. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We all have smart meters around here. I would imagine that, at the very least, the meter would log that it was online and had power at a time when the power company would expect it not to. It most likely has the ability to meter the amount of power feeding back into the grid due to homes that have solar arrays that do such things. If that is the case I would expect it won't take them long to figure out who did it. You'd need a switch within the meter itself to cut line power. It would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to implement and take decades. A meter is nothing more than a set of CTs on a network to read power coming in and at what rate. Dominion is rolling out new meters that have exactly this sort of capability. Rated to disconnect at full load, remotely using a 915MHz to cellular bridge. I don't know if they have active back-feed detection but it wouldn't be hard to implement. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 10:00:07 PM EDT
[#33]
I thought the protocol was to shunt out lines you were working on.
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Posted: 7/18/2022 10:02:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know either. For all I know, there could be just such a check .... and I would wager there actually is. Problem is, though, what if (censored) homeowner powers up and back feeds after that check is done? Unless you have continuous monitoring, your check only tells you that the line wasn't hot when the check was done. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’m also surprised that they don’t have a way to safely check for voltage on the lines prior to working on them. Generally in industry you have a try step in the lockout process. I don’t know what is the practice for utilities. I don't know either. For all I know, there could be just such a check .... and I would wager there actually is. Problem is, though, what if (censored) homeowner powers up and back feeds after that check is done? Unless you have continuous monitoring, your check only tells you that the line wasn't hot when the check was done. Sounds like a safety issue for the industry that the industry needs to solve. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 10:02:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand ATSs MTSs and interlocks.. I have an ASCO300 series to wire up for mine.. Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand ATSs MTSs and interlocks.. I have an ASCO300 series to wire up for mine.. Good choice. I've got one I'm wiring up before the end of the year. However in a somewhat related question, how is this handled when solar being fed into the grid at homeowner level being more and more popular? Do they have a list of people who have solar and just go around and shut off everyone's feed into the grid? Anti-islanding prevents the inverter from pushing power to the grid unless valid voltage/frequency is present on the grid terminal. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 10:03:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote History[b]Originally Posted While the homeowner bears some responsibility, the lineman, trainers, coworkers and/or leaders of the deceased bear the bulk of the responsibility. This is what it comes down to. It’s not dead if it’s not grounded. I’m guilty of just wearing rubbers when a breaker is open without testing and grounding. All it would take is an incidental contact on a line you thought was dead to have problem. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 10:04:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Relieved to read he's not actually dead. Electrocuted = dead. Don't mean to be nitpicky, but you may want to rephrase to shocked or zapped or something. Don’t mean to be nit picky, but: e·lec·tro·cute /?'lektr??kyo?ot/ Learn to pronounce verb past tense: electrocuted; past participle: electrocuted injure or kill someone by electric shock. "a man was electrocuted when he switched on the Christmas tree lights" |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 11:12:04 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is illegal to pull your own meter here, and in many other locations. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Although I'm not recommending it, one way to isolate your home from the electrical grid is to pull the electric meter, and keep it indoors. Make sure all the breakers are shut off when you reinstall the meter, and that you're not grounded. It is illegal to pull your own meter here, and in many other locations. I don't know what the power company could say about it if it was done during a power outage. I think the real issue would be with people jumping the connectors in the meter socket and stealing power. My power company recently sent me a postcard which had an offer to modify my meter to activate my standby generator during "peak hours". They're offering to intermittently disconnect their power grid from my home but I don't have a stationary generator. When I was in high school, a buddy of mine's dad was electrocuted when he went down into their flooded basement to unplug their electric clothes dryer. If I had to do that, I'd pull the meter and lock it up or take it with me, and have someone guard the meter socket. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 11:15:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: This is what it comes down to. It’s not dead if it’s not grounded. I’m guilty of just wearing rubbers when a breaker is open without testing and grounding. All it would take is an incidental contact on a line you thought was dead to have problem. We built a scenario with a 50kva and a 3500 Honda Generator. Little single phase tap. Grounded the line 100ft from the pot, energized the generator and closed the fuse. It held and the little red beast kept chugging. Moved the ground closer to the pot, no trip on the generator or blown transformer fuse.We kept moving the ground closer to the pot with no tripping. Shunted at the bushing while the generator was running and finally tripped the breaker. Isolate from known and possible sources of potential, check for voltage, ground and keep hands and feet at the same potential or in parallel with a low impedance ground as close to yourself as practical! A lot of fatalities on “grounded” lines. Always know where you are placing your body in the circuit and work accordingly! |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 11:23:04 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weird. I know a guy in GA that lost both arm at the shoulder due to something similar. Guess it's not that uncommon. Room mate in college, his father was working a live line for Niagara Mohawk and lost both arms at the shoulders. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 11:25:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We built a scenario with a 50kva and a 3500 Honda Generator. Little single phase tap. Grounded the line 100ft from the pot, energized the generator and closed the fuse. It held and the little red beast kept chugging. Moved the ground closer to the pot, no trip on the generator or blown transformer fuse.We kept moving the ground closer to the pot with no tripping. Shunted at the bushing while the generator was running and finally tripped the breaker. Isolate from known and possible sources of potential, check for voltage, ground and keep hands and feet at the same potential or in parallel with a low impedance ground as close to yourself as practical! A lot of fatalities on “grounded” lines. Always know where you are placing your body in the circuit and work accordingly! Very interesting. I was wondering if the overall system didn't offer enough resistance to trip the breaker. Sounds like that can certainly be the case |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 11:45:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Genuinely sorry for what happened. Is in not a standard practice to put a meter on it to determine if it is cold? (Not a lineman genuine question) I do anytime I do anything electrical. It probably was when he started working. All it takes is one path connected to the line. |
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Posted: 7/18/2022 11:45:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: homeowner is at fault. there will be consequences. i have a whole house generator professionally installed and it part of the install is a switch that cuts connectivity to the transformer before generator starts. what im curious about is for folks that have solar power backfed to grid how is that done to code to prevent issues like this? Solar has to go through an inverter before it powers your house. The inverter is tied to the grid and if the grid goes down no voltage from the inverter gets out to the grid. At the house there are disconnects to turn off power coming from the panels (DC power in most cases). |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 12:15:56 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We built a scenario with a 50kva and a 3500 Honda Generator. Little single phase tap. Grounded the line 100ft from the pot, energized the generator and closed the fuse. It held and the little red beast kept chugging. Moved the ground closer to the pot, no trip on the generator or blown transformer fuse.We kept moving the ground closer to the pot with no tripping. Shunted at the bushing while the generator was running and finally tripped the breaker. Isolate from known and possible sources of potential, check for voltage, ground and keep hands and feet at the same potential or in parallel with a low impedance ground as close to yourself as practical! A lot of fatalities on “grounded” lines. Always know where you are placing your body in the circuit and work accordingly! Well that proves that grounds aren’t as sufficient as we are taught in all cases. We sure try to work smart and minimize risk but a third party down the line 5 miles is hardly ever added into the equation. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 12:29:09 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Room mate in college, his father was working a live line for Niagara Mohawk and lost both arms at the shoulders. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Weird. I know a guy in GA that lost both arm at the shoulder due to something similar. Guess it's not that uncommon. Room mate in college, his father was working a live line for Niagara Mohawk and lost both arms at the shoulders. Back when I was at a manufacturer doing field service, the very first substation I walked into, I went to shake hands with the lead electrician only to realize he didn’t have a right arm below the elbow. Several years prior, he had performed switching to obtain clearance to work on a breaker (12 or 25kV). Went on break. Came back and setup on the wrong breaker. Left an impression. We’ve had a guest speaker at a safety meeting who contacted 12kV and lost both arms at the elbow and was severely burned. Utility in neighboring state had a contract crew doing storm restoration. Somehow, 2 helpers ended up contacting a live line and lost their lives. OSHA Complacency or ignorance will kill or maim in HV work. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 12:32:50 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We built a scenario with a 50kva and a 3500 Honda Generator. Little single phase tap. Grounded the line 100ft from the pot, energized the generator and closed the fuse. It held and the little red beast kept chugging. Moved the ground closer to the pot, no trip on the generator or blown transformer fuse.We kept moving the ground closer to the pot with no tripping. Shunted at the bushing while the generator was running and finally tripped the breaker. Isolate from known and possible sources of potential, check for voltage, ground and keep hands and feet at the same potential or in parallel with a low impedance ground as close to yourself as practical! A lot of fatalities on “grounded” lines. Always know where you are placing your body in the circuit and work accordingly! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is what it comes down to. It’s not dead if it’s not grounded. I’m guilty of just wearing rubbers when a breaker is open without testing and grounding. All it would take is an incidental contact on a line you thought was dead to have problem. We built a scenario with a 50kva and a 3500 Honda Generator. Little single phase tap. Grounded the line 100ft from the pot, energized the generator and closed the fuse. It held and the little red beast kept chugging. Moved the ground closer to the pot, no trip on the generator or blown transformer fuse.We kept moving the ground closer to the pot with no tripping. Shunted at the bushing while the generator was running and finally tripped the breaker. Isolate from known and possible sources of potential, check for voltage, ground and keep hands and feet at the same potential or in parallel with a low impedance ground as close to yourself as practical! A lot of fatalities on “grounded” lines. Always know where you are placing your body in the circuit and work accordingly! Did the actual clearing time differ from what your analysis calculated? Fuse selection/sizing is critical as fuses are dumb devices. They sometimes (always) struggle to clear a high impedance fault. I’m not not a protection guy and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 12:41:05 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well that proves that grounds aren’t as sufficient as we are taught in all cases. We sure try to work smart and minimize risk but a third party down the line 5 miles is hardly ever added into the equation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We built a scenario with a 50kva and a 3500 Honda Generator. Little single phase tap. Grounded the line 100ft from the pot, energized the generator and closed the fuse. It held and the little red beast kept chugging. Moved the ground closer to the pot, no trip on the generator or blown transformer fuse.We kept moving the ground closer to the pot with no tripping. Shunted at the bushing while the generator was running and finally tripped the breaker. Isolate from known and possible sources of potential, check for voltage, ground and keep hands and feet at the same potential or in parallel with a low impedance ground as close to yourself as practical! A lot of fatalities on “grounded” lines. Always know where you are placing your body in the circuit and work accordingly! Well that proves that grounds aren’t as sufficient as we are taught in all cases. We sure try to work smart and minimize risk but a third party down the line 5 miles is hardly ever added into the equation. Do you treat equipment as de-energized just with grounds or do you need a visible air break? Grounds are a last resort protective device that would be layered with a switch or physical air gap (cut jumpers). A properly designed air-break switch in the T&D world will have an air gap 110% greater than the gap to ground. Any voltage, even a surge, should go to ground before jumping the gap. Otherwise it should be treated as hot. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 1:04:26 AM EDT
[#48]
Dang. Sorry to hear about any accident, especially electrical, when the science is so clear (for me). Longtime pro...
There will have to be new procedures and practices implemented by rule - as soon as enough guys die to make it worth it. This is happening too often. All the second-guessing by non-industry posters aside, it can happen, and will again, as more and more homeowners implement generators in response to energy outages/instability/shortages...fuel price... prep ... strife ... floods ... locusts ... hot as fuck temps
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Posted: 7/19/2022 1:12:11 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don’t mean to be nit picky, but: e·lec·tro·cute /?'lektr??kyo?ot/ Learn to pronounce verb past tense: electrocuted; past participle: electrocuted injure or kill someone by electric shock. "a man was electrocuted when he switched on the Christmas tree lights" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Relieved to read he's not actually dead. Electrocuted = dead. Don't mean to be nitpicky, but you may want to rephrase to shocked or zapped or something. Don’t mean to be nit picky, but: e·lec·tro·cute /?'lektr??kyo?ot/ Learn to pronounce verb past tense: electrocuted; past participle: electrocuted injure or kill someone by electric shock. "a man was electrocuted when he switched on the Christmas tree lights" Wrong. Etimology of Electrocute execute by electricity, 1889, American English, from electro- + back half of execute. The method first was used Aug. 6, 1890, in New York state, on William Kemmler, convicted of the murder of his common-law wife. In reference to accidental death by 1909. Electric chair is also first recorded 1889, the year the one used on Kemmler was introduced in New York as a humane alternative to hanging. Related: Electrocuted; electrocuting. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 1:20:15 AM EDT
[#50]
our procedure ( elevator work) is loto test and verify. Sorry for your buddy.
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