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Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:07:24 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
It's not about "them" knowing that we are gun owners...it's about it's none of their fucking business what we have.  As a gun owner and law abiding citizen, I don't need to tell them shit.  If you want to bend the knee and be a bitch, that's your choice.  Just don't be surprised when they come for your stuff because you have them registered.


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Quoted:
It's not about "them" knowing that we are gun owners...it's about it's none of their fucking business what we have.  As a gun owner and law abiding citizen, I don't need to tell them shit.  If you want to bend the knee and be a bitch, that's your choice.  Just don't be surprised when they come for your stuff because you have them registered.

Quoted:
If you already have an NFA item, have a concealed carry permit, have a hunting license , bought a firearm at an FFL, or bought accessories with a credit card or have laid for a membership here, the ATF already knows you are a gun owner and what you likely have
To think otherwise is naive and lying to yourself.
If you have none of the above then you are one of the very few.



I already have NFA, that has come and gone.

If they come for my stuff, they will come for anybody that has a concealed carry permit or a hunting license or filled out a 4473.

They don't care what you have, they care who has them. If you think otherwise, then you are not paying attention.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:08:29 PM EDT
[#2]
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Whoa there. I know Brownells has made some changes, but I gotta put out to renew my membership?!!!
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Quoted:
Quoted:


If you already have an NFA item, have a concealed carry permit, have a hunting license , bought a firearm at an FFL, or bought accessories with a credit card or have laid for a membership here, the ATF already knows you are a gun owner and what you likely have

To think otherwise is naive and lying to yourself.

If you have none of the above then you are one of the very few.


Whoa there. I know Brownells has made some changes, but I gotta put out to renew my membership?!!!


it's a new option lol, but only for the good looking
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:08:59 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:



If you have a concealed carry permit you are complying with an unjust law...shall not be infringed.
If you have a hunting license you are complying with an unjust law
If you don't have a vertical forearm on your pistol you are complying with an unjust law
If you filled out a 4473 at an FFL,you are complying with an unjust law

It all comes down to is not complying right now worth the consequences, or should you comply now so that when it kicks off you aren't behind bars and your family penniless between now and when it matters.

This isn't a  philosophy discussion on right or wrong, it is a pragmatic discussion.

maybe it is just more pragmatic to just take off the damn brace until it's time to put it back on.  Right now legal matters, someday legal may not matter and if that day comes maybe it would be better to not be behind bars when it does.
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I still don't know which braces they are talking about..........
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:12:48 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
This.

I used to have that attitude about 20-30 years ago then I FINALLY realized that they will NEVER stop and to compromise was an absolute fool's errand.


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What blows my mind is that they want to do this, and then right after ban AW's.  They say you could put a 16" barrel upon it, but they plan and have stated they want to ban that as well.  We are all headed towards a path of just jumping through multiple hoops.  If you comply, you only end up with NOTHING.  Not the 16" carbine, Not the parts to even build that.  You have nothing.

I remember when they started the second brady bill bs that limited magazine capacity to seven rounds after limiting to ten rounds.  It will NEVER end.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:13:06 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
I just want to point out the last few paragraphs of the letter.  They are important.




This does NOT hold the force of law.
Braces are NOT banned.
It is saying that SOME braced pistols in SOME configurations COULD be considered SBR's...maybe....the ATF may or may not let you know....and they may or may not shoot your dag.

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They put that boilerplate verbiage in there so they can call this "guidance" instead of a "rulemaking."  A rule making requires compliance with the administrative procedures act and some other things.  Ain't nobody have time for that.

ATF will almost certainly behave as if this were a binding rule anyways.

There is a decent chance the DC circuit court of appeals will slam a door on ATFs dick over it though which is the ray of possible sunshine.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:14:12 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


Nah.  The government knows you are likely a gun owner.

They don’t know what you have, unless you have registered your weapons.  Especially down to the configuration and serial #.

Sure I have a bunch of 4473s tied to me at various gun shops.  I’m not worried that the ATF has seen those, because for the most part they haven’t.

Regardless, I’ve traded, sold and bought so many times through private sales that no paperwork is relevant.

I’m beginning to see a pattern.  Guys who have registered are getting mad at those of us who haven’t.  “Come on guys, just register your guns.  It’s not bad and I’m sure they already know exactly what you have.”  This, about the same government that can’t even keep NFA records straight.  But they magically know what everyone in the US owns.

Bullshit.

I ain’t registering shit.  And I’m not going to give a fuck when they come for the guns of those that did.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


If you already have an NFA item, have a concealed carry permit, have a hunting license , bought a firearm at an FFL, or bought accessories with a credit card or have laid for a membership here, the ATF already knows you are a gun owner and what you likely have

To think otherwise is naive and lying to yourself.

If you have none of the above then you are one of the very few.


Nah.  The government knows you are likely a gun owner.

They don’t know what you have, unless you have registered your weapons.  Especially down to the configuration and serial #.

Sure I have a bunch of 4473s tied to me at various gun shops.  I’m not worried that the ATF has seen those, because for the most part they haven’t.

Regardless, I’ve traded, sold and bought so many times through private sales that no paperwork is relevant.

I’m beginning to see a pattern.  Guys who have registered are getting mad at those of us who haven’t.  “Come on guys, just register your guns.  It’s not bad and I’m sure they already know exactly what you have.”  This, about the same government that can’t even keep NFA records straight.  But they magically know what everyone in the US owns.

Bullshit.

I ain’t registering shit.  And I’m not going to give a fuck when they come for the guns of those that did.



maybe you missed the threads about the ATF keeping 4473 records and photo copying all 4473 from shops.

I don't care what anybody else does. I am not saying register. I am just saying don't lie to yourself.
They don't care what you have, they care who has something.

they don't have to keep what you have straight, they just have to have a list of names that had or have something.


Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:14:24 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


Let's be honest here. If you have a brace on a pistol, you're already complying with an unjust law.
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Yah well, you're still complying to an unjust law.


Let's be honest here. If you have a brace on a pistol, you're already complying with an unjust law.


True. Point taken. But the line must be drawn somewhere.

Do you agree with my second statement? Complying will show them "you can keep it if you register it" works. They wont stop there.

I don't even have a brace, btw.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:17:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Meh. Force Democrat gun owners to comply with what they voted for.

Mass NON-COMPLIANCE for everyone else.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:18:02 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


I strongly oppose this proposal, but if it turns into reality, I'll simply remove the brace from my pistol and continue hunting with a bare buffer tube.
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If these POS manage to push this through I'll have to beg permission and wait for it to be granted in order to hunt either of these leases or a parcel of family land that I occasionally hunt with a climber.


I strongly oppose this proposal, but if it turns into reality, I'll simply remove the brace from my pistol and continue hunting with a bare buffer tube.



or put it on and off as appropriate.

take it off for transport
put it on while hunting
take it off for transport.
store it with it off.

having a brace will not be illegal, having it on a pistol may or may not be.

mitigate the risk, but use it as desired.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:18:13 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:

I still don't know which braces they are talking about..........
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Quoted:



If you have a concealed carry permit you are complying with an unjust law...shall not be infringed.
If you have a hunting license you are complying with an unjust law
If you don't have a vertical forearm on your pistol you are complying with an unjust law
If you filled out a 4473 at an FFL,you are complying with an unjust law

It all comes down to is not complying right now worth the consequences, or should you comply now so that when it kicks off you aren't behind bars and your family penniless between now and when it matters.

This isn't a  philosophy discussion on right or wrong, it is a pragmatic discussion.

maybe it is just more pragmatic to just take off the damn brace until it's time to put it back on.  Right now legal matters, someday legal may not matter and if that day comes maybe it would be better to not be behind bars when it does.

I still don't know which braces they are talking about..........

They want it as confusing as possible, however if I were to guess, the SBA-3 and 4 is probably what pissed them off.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:19:46 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:


How will the agency determine how often the brace touches someone's shoulder?

What is the acceptable time the brace spends in contact with a shoulder?
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With what they are trying to do now, it doesn’t matter if it ever touches your shoulder or not, so those questions are moot.  They are trying to base it solely on characteristics of the assembled pistol, regardless of how you actually use it.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:20:12 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:




What blows my mind is that they want to do this, and then right after ban AW's.  They say you could put a 16" barrel upon it, but they plan and have stated they want to ban that as well.  We are all headed towards a path of just jumping through multiple hoops.  If you comply, you only end up with NOTHING.  Not the 16" carbine, Not the parts to even build that.  You have nothing.

I remember when they started the second brady bill bs that limited magazine capacity to seven rounds after limiting to ten rounds.  It will NEVER end.
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You and I have learned that they will NEVER stop.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:21:42 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:

They want it as confusing as possible, however if I were to guess, the SBA-3 and 4 is probably what pissed them off.
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When someone is vague it makes me think they are hiding their true intentions.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:24:22 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


True. Point taken. But the line must be drawn somewhere.

Do you agree with my second statement? Complying will show them "you can keep it if you register it" works. They wont stop there.

I don't even have a brace, btw.
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Quoted:


Yah well, you're still complying to an unjust law.


Let's be honest here. If you have a brace on a pistol, you're already complying with an unjust law.


True. Point taken. But the line must be drawn somewhere.

Do you agree with my second statement? Complying will show them "you can keep it if you register it" works. They wont stop there.

I don't even have a brace, btw.


If nobody registers their braced pistol and just takes the brace off and puts it in a draw, they will still see that nobody registered their braced pistol.

how is that showing them that unconstitutional shit works?
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:24:38 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:



maybe you missed the threads about the ATF keeping 4473 records and photo copying all 4473 from shops.

I don't care what anybody else does. I am not saying register. I am just saying don't lie to yourself.
They don't care what you have, they care who has something.

they don't have to keep what you have straight, they just have to have a list of names that had or have something.


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They would like complete inventory and chain of custody though, because they want to know if you still have something after they take "all" of it away.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:29:11 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
The biggest issue all the "just do as you're told" group seems to be missing is the travel restrictions.

My pig hunting guns are both 6.8spc 12.5" pistols (occasionally also used for dense wood deer hunting). I live close to a state line and the two leases I maintain are both in a neighboring state. If these POS manage to push this through I'll have to beg permission and wait for it to be granted in order to hunt either of these leases or a parcel of family land that I occasionally hunt with a climber.

Guess we should just be grateful this limitation isn't being imposed on a by county/parish basis yet...
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Just submit one of the 5320.20 forms annually to cover any likely destination, with travel dates of 1 Jan to 31 Dec.

Submit one form for a long distance destination ("I am just travelling from X to Y") as well.

Once it is done once keep copies of the forms and just submit the same ones every year with a new date and signature.

It's a mild PITA.  

The bigger PITA if you go the NFA route is having to keep the paperwork with the firearm prior to a roadtrip and now having to vet each state en route for SBR/NFA issues.  A fair number of states that have CCW reciprocity, are generally good on guns etc have weird laws on NFA.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:30:35 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:


If nobody registers their braced pistol and just takes the brace off and puts it in a draw, they will still see that nobody registered their braced pistol.

how is that showing them that unconstitutional shit works?
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Not trying to argue but I never said anything about putting it in a drawer.

Have you sent a comment to the ATF at least? That question goes for all that have the same mentality.


Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:31:39 PM EDT
[#18]
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When someone is vague it makes me think they are hiding their true intentions.
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They want it as confusing as possible, however if I were to guess, the SBA-3 and 4 is probably what pissed them off.

When someone is vague it makes me think they are hiding their true intentions.


they could have said, all braces are now stocks.

they didn't, they probably can't due to the ADA

so they are vague. It sounds like they were being forced to put out a policy and they put one out that is not viable in court because it is vague and they can ignore if they want to because it is vague. As written they basically said each individual braced pistol will be judged individually.

Sucks if someone wants to comply but at the same time it doesn't tie the ATF into enforcing anything, or enforcing everything.

it is very weird.  It is either a very bad thing, or a good thing depending on how tyrannical the ATF wants to be.

Their own agents are probably saying WTF?
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:34:54 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:

They would like complete inventory and chain of custody though, because they want to know if you still have something after they take "all" of it away.
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Quoted:



maybe you missed the threads about the ATF keeping 4473 records and photo copying all 4473 from shops.

I don't care what anybody else does. I am not saying register. I am just saying don't lie to yourself.
They don't care what you have, they care who has something.

they don't have to keep what you have straight, they just have to have a list of names that had or have something.



They would like complete inventory and chain of custody though, because they want to know if you still have something after they take "all" of it away.


They will never have that though.

Illegal drugs are illegal, yet in every high school, college, and street corner across America.

If they come for them, they will toss your house looking for anything you have and issue a warrant for any property you own in any state you own it or storage facility you rent.

they already do that know for red flag laws and felons.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:35:12 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:


Nah.  The government knows you are likely a gun owner.

They don’t know what you have, unless you have registered your weapons.  Especially down to the configuration and serial #.

Sure I have a bunch of 4473s tied to me at various gun shops.  I’m not worried that the ATF has seen those, because for the most part they haven’t.

Regardless, I’ve traded, sold and bought so many times through private sales that no paperwork is relevant.

I’m beginning to see a pattern.  Guys who have registered are getting mad at those of us who haven’t.  “Come on guys, just register your guns.  It’s not bad and I’m sure they already know exactly what you have.”  This, about the same government that can’t even keep NFA records straight.  But they magically know what everyone in the US owns.

Bullshit.

I ain’t registering shit.  And I’m not going to give a fuck when they come for the guns of those that did.
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Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:36:12 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:


I already have NFA, that has come and gone.

If they come for my stuff, they will come for anybody that has a concealed carry permit or a hunting license or filled out a 4473.

They don't care what you have, they care who has them. If you think otherwise, then you are not paying attention.
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This.

they don't care what people have and whether it's registered or not or what the SN is because if/when they come, they're almost certainly bringing more heat than anyone they're coming for; stack of dudes with IBA, machineguns, sharpshooters, flashbangs, NV, tear gas, and warrants...
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:38:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Big deal you have NFA items...so do I along with thousands of others on this site.  Once again, NFA items are not the same thing as selling firearms that you have through 4473. With NFA, they know exactly who owns what and where those guns are located.  Same cannot be said for items you purchased FTF as hundreds of thousands of firearms have changed hands multiple times.

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Quoted:
I already have NFA, that has come and gone.


If they come for my stuff, they will come for anybody that has a concealed carry permit or a hunting license or filled out a 4473.

They don't care what you have, they care who has them. If you think otherwise, then you are not paying attention.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:40:21 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:


Let's be honest here. If you have a brace on a pistol, you're already complying with an unjust law.
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Not quite.

The is a HUGE difference between a pistol and a rifle in IL.
SBR's are not allowed in IL without a C&R
AR-15 RIFLES are not allowed in the two largest cities in the state (plus other areas).
High cap rifle mags are not allowed in the two largest cities in the state (plus other areas).
Rifles cannot be used to hunt deer.
Severe restrictions on traveling with a rifle.


HOWEVER,  completely different rules for pistols.  And it is even more important for those that live along the border cities.  
With my CCL, I can keep my loaded .300blk pistol in the car with me.  Remove the 30 round mag and pop in a bob sled, and it is now a legal deer pistol.  

I'm not trying get around SBR laws because SBR's are USELESS to me.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:40:34 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


Not trying to argue but I never said anything about putting it in a drawer.

Have you sent a comment to the ATF at least? That question goes for all that have the same mentality.


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If nobody registers their braced pistol and just takes the brace off and puts it in a draw, they will still see that nobody registered their braced pistol.

how is that showing them that unconstitutional shit works?


Not trying to argue but I never said anything about putting it in a drawer.

Have you sent a comment to the ATF at least? That question goes for all that have the same mentality.




I am not trying to argue either, just trying to point out some other options.

IMO those comments are worthless. Not once has the comments ever stopped  anything the ATF did. the only reason why they do it is because it is required by law. It is just a formality..

I did a comment for bumpstocks and didn't ever own one. Never again. It is a fake input point, making people believe they have an input when they certainly don't

IMO, they just collect the names and addresses of people that comment and keep them.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:43:11 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
Big deal you have NFA items...so do I along with thousands of others on this site.  Once again, NFA items are not the same thing as selling firearms that you have through 4473. With NFA, they know exactly who owns what and where those guns are located.  Same cannot be said for items you purchased FTF as hundreds of thousands of firearms have changed hands multiple times.


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Big deal you have NFA items...so do I along with thousands of others on this site.  Once again, NFA items are not the same thing as selling firearms that you have through 4473. With NFA, they know exactly who owns what and where those guns are located.  Same cannot be said for items you purchased FTF as hundreds of thousands of firearms have changed hands multiple times.

Quoted:
I already have NFA, that has come and gone.


If they come for my stuff, they will come for anybody that has a concealed carry permit or a hunting license or filled out a 4473.

They don't care what you have, they care who has them. If you think otherwise, then you are not paying attention.



you completely missed my point
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 12:44:19 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


they could have said, all braces are now stocks.

they didn't, they probably can't due to the ADA

so they are vague. It sounds like they were being forced to put out a policy and they put one out that is not viable in court because it is vague and they can ignore if they want to because it is vague. As written they basically said each individual braced pistol will be judged individually.

Sucks if someone wants to comply but at the same time it doesn't tie the ATF into enforcing anything, or enforcing everything.

it is very weird.  It is either a very bad thing, or a good thing depending on how tyrannical the ATF wants to be.

Their own agents are probably saying WTF?
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It could be interpreted in many ways. Even without a brace they could deem it an SBR.

Biden wants to put everything on the NFA list including mags, so I feel this will be a trial run.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:00:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Despite having been around firearms my entire life, none involved NFA. Living in Colorado I was focused on battles over magazine capacity. After researching NFA, I find this pistol vs rifle conflict completely fucking stupid. The only thing worse is suppressors. I was seriously underwhelmed the first time I heard a suppressed rifle discharged. Both are entirely baseless regulation which serve only to make owners kneel.

Free stamps are knee pads so pistol owners can publicly kneel and legitimize what they are doing. Given the restrictions on SBR travel and carry, they have very limited utility. Going from pistol to SBR is castration.  

Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:10:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Ah, so another consideration for me is state law based. I have an adapter and a brace for my G20.  I can legally hunt with a handgun chambered in a listed caliber (10mm is one of them) in New Hampshire, including in towns deemed "shotgun only."  That meant I could use my braced G20, but now if my G20 with the brace installed is considered a Short Barreled Rifle with a wave of ATFs shitty magic wand, I lose that option.

This is a mess.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:16:21 PM EDT
[#29]
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maybe you missed the threads about the ATF keeping 4473 records and photo copying all 4473 from shops.

I don't care what anybody else does. I am not saying register. I am just saying don't lie to yourself.
They don't care what you have, they care who has something.

they don't have to keep what you have straight, they just have to have a list of names that had or have something.


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Right.

So literally hundreds of millions of people.

A list that has everyone on it isn’t useful as a list at all.

A list that has few people with specific info is very useful.  It’s up to us which one we want to be on.


ETA:  take the rural area where I live.  The “but muh 4473 list” is useless.  Nearly every single household owns guns. Everyone knows that.  They could just start going door to door.  But they won’t.  

They’ll hit the easy, known to be compliant marks first.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:21:49 PM EDT
[#30]
My thought is a bunch of people will stand their ground and not comply, if you bought a sig mpx with a brace and the ATF allowed it to be sold and transferred to you as a pistol, especially in places Sbr’s are not allowed then they too are involved in this weather they like it or not.

This will go to court, no way this is passing quietly in the night. The ATF is kicking a hornets nest here that might just bite them in the ass.

If the people on this site just banded together for once we alone cover all walks of life and professions and are a force to be reckoned with.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:25:28 PM EDT
[#31]
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Not quite.

The is a HUGE difference between a pistol and a rifle in IL.
SBR's are not allowed in IL without a C&R
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This is something to keep in mind. By registering your braced pistol, you're "converting" it to a SBR (legally at least) and letting the feds know you own it.

What makes you think the fedbois will keep their "tax information" completely confidential under the Biden/Harris administration, and that they won't "accidentally" leak certain lists of SBRs in certain states to that state's state police after that state bans SBRs in a new bill?

Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:28:33 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
This.

I used to have that attitude about 20-30 years ago then I FINALLY realized that they will NEVER stop and to compromise was an absolute fool's errand.


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Quoted:
So... Fair Warning - if you're highly passionate on this topic - you might want to just skip this one.  Because here's a more dispassionate assessment from a little more set-back perspective.

This really isn't that high-drama to me.  This is going to be the post that's going to seriously piss a lot of the passionate ones off - and it's also how it is.  And yes, I'm a gun guy who believes in freedom.  But here we are - it doesn't matter if NFA itself is bullshit; this is where we are.  I don't support the law at all and think it's stupid as shit and non-sensical.  Sometimes I don't support the law of Gravity either - doesn't mean it's not there.  We had 2 years of R president and R congress to address that; we did not.


I remember watching MAC's NFA Nutcracker video.  It was an obvious intent and usage as a stock.  How is this hard to see?  Regardless of ones ability to circular logic into not being a stock; no jury, judge, or prosecutor is going to watch that MAC NFA Nutcracker video and agree.  A vague letter refereeing to "incidental" contact isn't going to make that go away.  This isn't to call MAC out, only that it's germane since MAC is the origination of this whole thread.  There are thousands of other Youtube video's and postings of the same thing.

ATF who constantly get accused of being assholes, were not assholes and they let that shit go; and have let that obvious intent go for years now.  Any other era they would have come down like the hand of God, and MAC would be in jail for that video.  Now that the next administration is coming in, that's about to happen.  So Trumps AG and ATF is now giving everyone a free-pass free tax-stamp; and publicly declaring that past usage (and so past Youtube videos) are all getting a free pass, regardless of case they could try to make that people were documenting themselves breaking NFA (all hiding behind a vague letter that documented "incidental" contact, which none of that was "incidental").  So yes - they are going to give everyone a free pass, and work their asses off to do it in a rushed manner, so it can be done before the next Admin comes in - and everyone is accusing them of tyranny.  People, this is a gift.  They very easily could just say "you're all felon's, destroy immediately", and basically have precedent that would have let them do that.  They aren't.

ATF's new definition and letter is nothing really that high drama.  If the "brace" has obvious intent to equal a system that realistically can only pragmatically be used as a shoulder fired arm; then it's a stock.  Is that really that hard to see?  If the brace is such that realistically it's to support one-handed fire, without systems and components that pragmatically could only be used if shoulder fired, then it's a pistol.  That's always been their charter, and always been how they have essentially viewed it - if you actually read that "incidental" letter.  Like it or not; here we are.  If you don't like this interpretation of all that from a gun-guy, you're really not going to like the DA's interpretation.  Bitch to congress, they're the ones who made the law.  As far as I'm concerned, ATF has gone above and beyond letting shit go.  They COULD come down and say all braces equal stocks, the next admin almost certainly will; but instead they are going this route.

I don't think people realize how pre-emptive a reprieve is being given on this.  If you have an AR Pistol, you have several more AR's already.  SBR that one.  It's a hedge; if they do a blanket ban on AR's, NFA registered stuff often gets exempted; and you still have an AR.  If they come a'calling and ban your 1 NFA, then you're out 1 of several AR's; it may piss you off, but in the end; you still have ARs.  And worst case, if they use NFA as a registry to come to your house to collect all your guns; then they already know you're a gun guy by your IP address just reading this - and they're coming regardless of if you're in NFA or not.  

Take the free NFA registry; it's a gift.  Any "victory" at stopping this is a huge mistake in my opinion.  And will to turn into a nightmare, when the next admin ATF gets to unilaterally decide shit, under:
-a Beto gun Czar,
-a god-knows-what AG,
-a God-knows-What Sec. of Treasury,
-a D' president,
-a D' house,
-a very weak (at best) R Senate won't do shit to stop.  
-And don't rely on the judiciary to do jack shit about this one.  

Step back 20 steps, and say again that nice wide rubber back being pressed against the shoulder to stabilize the "pistol" of the user isn't a stock again.  You'll convince AR15.com; but that's about the only people you're going to convince.  Take the deal, it's the best deal you're going to get for the next 4(+?) years.  Or, you can chose to die on-this-hill over 4" of BBL length configuration.

----

On a final note, I keep seeing references to "the first one is very expensive, after that, the rest are free".  That's an ironic usage of that quote.  The book that quote comes from is Unintended Consequences.  And in that book, when the protagonist had opportunity in 1968 to register for free at the start of the NFA, he stayed up late nights manufacturing and stamping everything he could get his hands on to get into the NFA registry for free.  Given this opportunity, that's what he did.

Take the free NFA registry under Trump; this is a gift.
NO

Enough of the compromise.
This.

I used to have that attitude about 20-30 years ago then I FINALLY realized that they will NEVER stop and to compromise was an absolute fool's errand.





Now if we could just go back in time and get all gun owners on board...

Maybe braces and 80% receivers and solvent traps will finally get gun owners to all see the big picture.

Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:29:11 PM EDT
[#33]
I see at least two categories of braces:
1. User installed.
2. Factory supplied OEM.

I have one category of each, having a CZ Micro.  One category is a royal bitch to figure out who has what, while the other is easy peasy.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:29:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


they could have said, all braces are now stocks.

they didn't, they probably can't due to the ADA

so they are vague. It sounds like they were being forced to put out a policy and they put one out that is not viable in court because it is vague and they can ignore if they want to because it is vague. As written they basically said each individual braced pistol will be judged individually.

Sucks if someone wants to comply but at the same time it doesn't tie the ATF into enforcing anything, or enforcing everything.

it is very weird.  It is either a very bad thing, or a good thing depending on how tyrannical the ATF wants to be.

Their own agents are probably saying WTF?
View Quote
In the end..........THIS!!!

This has been the craziest year I have ever lived through...........and it doesn't seem to EVER stop.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:41:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In the end..........THIS!!!

This has been the craziest year I have ever lived through...........and it doesn't seem to EVER stop.
View Quote


Chillax, broseph.  I got a Calendar handy and it says we are only a lucky 13 days away from a reset.

If, of course, we survive the pending alignment of the two largest planets on the Solstice, another outbreak of pestilence, aliens in the shrubbery, salmonella in our ice cream, etc.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:43:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My thought is a bunch of people will stand their ground and not comply, if you bought a sig mpx with a brace and the ATF allowed it to be sold and transferred to you as a pistol, especially in places Sbr’s are not allowed then they too are involved in this weather they like it or not.

This will go to court, no way this is passing quietly in the night. The ATF is kicking a hornets nest here that might just bite them in the ass.

If the people on this site just banded together for once we alone cover all walks of life and professions and are a force to be reckoned with.
View Quote


+1
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:44:21 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Despite having been around firearms my entire life, none involved NFA. Living in Colorado I was focused on battles over magazine capacity. After researching NFA, I find this pistol vs rifle conflict completely fucking stupid. The only thing worse is suppressors. I was seriously underwhelmed the first time I heard a suppressed rifle discharged. Both are entirely baseless regulation which serve only to make owners kneel.

Free stamps are knee pads so pistol owners can publicly kneel and legitimize what they are doing. Given the restrictions on SBR travel and carry, they have very limited utility. Going from pistol to SBR is castration.  

 
View Quote


I'd say that braces made AR pistols more comfortable, and better looking.

BUT

The hard truth is that technological advancements and sheer knowledge have made the AR pistol a formidable weapon (instead of a range toy), all the way to the point where the AR pistol (non NFA, pistol rules) has rendered the AR SBR (NFA rules) obsolete.

Everyone here knows that...even if some don't want to admit it.
The ATF knows it as well, and are trying to stuff that genie back in the bottle with scary BS letter.   Sorry bro, can't stop the signal.

The ability for me to take an 80% lower, turn it into a braced pistol, that can swing back and forth between a pistol and a (+16") rifle....all "off the books".....scares the crap out of the powers that be.   Sounds like FREEDOM to me.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why people would want to voluntarily register stuff for almost ZERO gain.

Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:46:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In the end..........THIS!!!

This has been the craziest year I have ever lived through...........and it doesn't seem to EVER stop.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


they could have said, all braces are now stocks.

they didn't, they probably can't due to the ADA

so they are vague. It sounds like they were being forced to put out a policy and they put one out that is not viable in court because it is vague and they can ignore if they want to because it is vague. As written they basically said each individual braced pistol will be judged individually.

Sucks if someone wants to comply but at the same time it doesn't tie the ATF into enforcing anything, or enforcing everything.

it is very weird.  It is either a very bad thing, or a good thing depending on how tyrannical the ATF wants to be.

Their own agents are probably saying WTF?
In the end..........THIS!!!

This has been the craziest year I have ever lived through...........and it doesn't seem to EVER stop.


This year has been crazy enough that I half expect it to surprise us one last time:

Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:47:57 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This year has been crazy enough that I half expect it to surprise us one last time:

https://i.imgur.com/azYHKiF.jpg
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:54:50 PM EDT
[#40]
There is a major effort going on right now to fight this. The industry is not just taking this on the chin quietly.

If there are any updates I will keep everyone posted.

Thanks,
Jamin
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 1:57:00 PM EDT
[#41]
It will be exceptionally easy to declare that an AR pistol without a brace along with a standard AR is possession of an SBR.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:03:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Despite having been around firearms my entire life, none involved NFA. Living in Colorado I was focused on battles over magazine capacity. After researching NFA, I find this pistol vs rifle conflict completely fucking stupid. The only thing worse is suppressors. I was seriously underwhelmed the first time I heard a suppressed rifle discharged. Both are entirely baseless regulation which serve only to make owners kneel.

Free stamps are knee pads so pistol owners can publicly kneel and legitimize what they are doing. Given the restrictions on SBR travel and carry, they have very limited utility. Going from pistol to SBR is castration.  

https://i.ibb.co/g4Jtsb8/pads.jpg
View Quote
^^^
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:05:46 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Not quite.

The is a HUGE difference between a pistol and a rifle in IL.
SBR's are not allowed in IL without a C&R
AR-15 RIFLES are not allowed in the two largest cities in the state (plus other areas).
High cap rifle mags are not allowed in the two largest cities in the state (plus other areas).
Rifles cannot be used to hunt deer.
Severe restrictions on traveling with a rifle.



HOWEVER,  completely different rules for pistols.  And it is even more important for those that live along the border cities.  
With my CCL, I can keep my loaded .300blk pistol in the car with me.  Remove the 30 round mag and pop in a bob sled, and it is now a legal deer pistol.  

I'm not trying get around SBR laws because SBR's are USELESS to me.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Let's be honest here. If you have a brace on a pistol, you're already complying with an unjust law.

Not quite.

The is a HUGE difference between a pistol and a rifle in IL.
SBR's are not allowed in IL without a C&R
AR-15 RIFLES are not allowed in the two largest cities in the state (plus other areas).
High cap rifle mags are not allowed in the two largest cities in the state (plus other areas).
Rifles cannot be used to hunt deer.
Severe restrictions on traveling with a rifle.



HOWEVER,  completely different rules for pistols.  And it is even more important for those that live along the border cities.  
With my CCL, I can keep my loaded .300blk pistol in the car with me.  Remove the 30 round mag and pop in a bob sled, and it is now a legal deer pistol.  

I'm not trying get around SBR laws because SBR's are USELESS to me.

See all that shit in bold up there... those are unjust laws.

Compromising by putting a lame plastic dingus thing on your rifle instead of a much nicer functional buttstock lets you comply with those unjust laws.  If you have a brace on a pistol, and you're not a disabled person requiring the brace to actually shoot your gun, then you're are doing it to comply with an unjust law.  Period.  I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.   And it's all shades of grey.  Brace owners already  lick at the bootheels of tyranny to comply with unjust laws... so they don't get to call others nasty names just because others are nibbling on the shoelaces higher up on the boot by wanting take advantage of a free stamp, or fill out form 20's to cross state lines, or pay 20k for a machinegun instead of just drilling a 3rd hole while screaming "fuck da police".  There's a word for that: hypocrisy.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:06:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It will be exceptionally easy to declare that an AR pistol without a brace along with a standard AR is possession of an SBR.
View Quote

Legally they can't....although that was the thought on bumpstocks as well.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:10:16 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This is something to keep in mind. By registering your braced pistol, you're "converting" it to a SBR (legally at least) and letting the feds know you own it.

What makes you think the fedbois will keep their "tax information" completely confidential under the Biden/Harris administration, and that they won't "accidentally" leak certain lists of SBRs in certain states to that state's state police after that state bans SBRs in a new bill?

View Quote

Firearms could be converted to a non-nfa configuration and removed from the registry.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:15:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Remember, these are the people who are being allowed to put their boot on your throat and turn you into a felon with the stroke of a pen.



Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:16:19 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This is something to keep in mind. By registering your braced pistol, you're "converting" it to a SBR (legally at least) and letting the feds know you own it.

What makes you think the fedbois will keep their "tax information" completely confidential under the Biden/Harris administration, and that they won't "accidentally" leak certain lists of SBRs in certain states to that state's state police after that state bans SBRs in a new bill?

View Quote



You know when you fill out a Form 4, you're required to give one of the forms (that you filled out in triplicate) to one of several approved local or state authorities, right?  Assuming you comply with the law, your local authorities ALREADY know you have extra-evil guns.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:19:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Where is the NRA??

View Quote



Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:27:32 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There is a major effort going on right now to fight this. The industry is not just taking this on the chin quietly.

If there are any updates I will keep everyone posted.

Thanks,
Jamin
View Quote

I hope this is a legit account and you do return with positive info.
Link Posted: 12/19/2020 2:29:40 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My thought is a bunch of people will stand their ground and not comply, if you bought a sig mpx with a brace and the ATF allowed it to be sold and transferred to you as a pistol, especially in places Sbr's are not allowed then they too are involved in this weather they like it or not.

This will go to court, no way this is passing quietly in the night. The ATF is kicking a hornets nest here that might just bite them in the ass.

If the people on this site just banded together for once we alone cover all walks of life and professions and are a force to be reckoned with.
View Quote

You have a lot more faith in the courts than I do.
Page / 44
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