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Posted: 11/26/2021 12:05:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Hard to imagine anyone with actual experience getting shot at saying "I wish I wasn't carrying so much ammo".
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Posted: 11/26/2021 12:07:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was in from 96-98 as an 11B, which means I never saw action or left CONUS. That being said, I remember our NCOs, some of whom had been in the Gulf War and Mogadishu that if we went to war the 7 mag loadout wasn't happening, we would be carrying as many mags and belts as we possibly could. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In the books referenced in this thread, they actually have photos of the gear lay-outs. And, yeah they did. Even line units back then carried a lot more ammo than we would consider normal now. And from my personal experience over 4 tours, I’d say they knew what they were doing. Really it’s not all that far fetched. The standard 7 mag load out is bullshit, and I didn’t go out without at least 10. My last 2 tours(Iraq 2008, Afghanistan ‘10) if I knew we were going somewhere with the potential for real trouble I carried 24 mags (2-40 rd on my carbine, 8 30s & a 40 on my gear, a bandolier with 6 more 30s, and another bandolier with 7 20s). Granted, I was a squad leader and I knew both of the 249s in my squad would actually run mags like they were supposed to. And I figured that I could keep us fighting longer if we had to. I had my people carry extra as well. Yeah I was in the minority with this. But after I left, my unit got into some heavier fighting. One of my guys told me later that after all that, he understood exactly why I did what I did and I trained them to do the same. And most of the other guys I knew, who either had several tours or at least one bad one, tended to have the same mindset I did about this. There just weren’t that many of us, relatively speaking. When you know help is not going to get to you quickly, if at all, you carry a lot of ammo if you’re smart. There were lots of occasions where isolated units got into 4-5 hour firefights-it happened more often than was reported back here. How far do you think 7 mags will get you in something like that? Yeah all that ammo weight sucks. I can remember days where I was praying to get shot at so I could use some ammo and lighten my load. Newsflash: war is not fun. But the suck factor of carrying all that ammo sucks less then ending up in a flag-draped coffin because you ran out. I was in from 96-98 as an 11B, which means I never saw action or left CONUS. That being said, I remember our NCOs, some of whom had been in the Gulf War and Mogadishu that if we went to war the 7 mag loadout wasn't happening, we would be carrying as many mags and belts as we possibly could. It’s a cyclical lesson. SOF spends years with heavy rucks stuffed to the gills with mags, ammo, def, food, water, extra gear- Then spends time with quick in and out raids over and over with the too much weight and gear being a detriment and pairs down to rolling with minimal stuff… Then gets an event where they are too light with too little The cycle resets and continues |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 12:12:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hard to imagine anyone with actual experience getting shot at saying "I wish I wasn't carrying so much ammo". There is definitely a point of diminishing returns. Fighting in restrictive terrain such as mountains, swamps, deep snow, etc. or when you life depends on the ability to break contact, not sustain it. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 2:23:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I try not to speak in absolutes about anything like that because some crazy things have happened, but that’s almost certainly bullshit. The Marine Corps has never had much of a known relationship with the SAS and had their own organic Recon schools and units back then, both stateside and in-country. Besides that, the Marine Corps had their own needs to meet in Vietnam and would have no reason to train someone up for super high speed stuff straight out of bootcamp(virtually unheard of both then and now) just to hand him off to an organization that was made up exclusively of Army SF troops. I totally agree. There are just enough details provided and omitted that I know its almost certainly BS. The right out boot camp thing is the huge red flag for me too. He claims that when he was sent over to Vietnam that he didn't get picked up by a unit right away and was sent to the jungle training. Dont know if the UK had some instructors on loan to the in country school but like I said...just enough details to make it believable. The sniper thing....again, maybe an in country course that I think the Marines had but dont know why he would have went. Especially if he wasn't assigned a unit yet. It does smell like total BS and as a Marine, I'm pretty savvy to BS but MACV-SOG isn't something I have a lot of knowledge about and want to get some facts before I throw the flag. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 2:28:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jocko interviewing Tilt is def worth a listen. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 2:31:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Multipurpose usage while still staying low weight. On time fuse or a tripwire fuse it functions as an anti-pursuit device with some anti-personnel capability due to the improvised frag. It wouldn't be incredibly effective but the magic is in the fact that once a pursuing unit hit s boobytrap of any sort they now have to slow down and deliberately clear. It's also a good way to initiate an ambush with some shock and awe. It also has limited ability to be used for enemy cache or weapon reduction. It wont destroy much, but you aren't using a DShk anymore that had detcord pulled through the chamber and ejection port and detonated. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The det cord with washers thing...what was the actual usefulness of that? Multipurpose usage while still staying low weight. On time fuse or a tripwire fuse it functions as an anti-pursuit device with some anti-personnel capability due to the improvised frag. It wouldn't be incredibly effective but the magic is in the fact that once a pursuing unit hit s boobytrap of any sort they now have to slow down and deliberately clear. It's also a good way to initiate an ambush with some shock and awe. It also has limited ability to be used for enemy cache or weapon reduction. It wont destroy much, but you aren't using a DShk anymore that had detcord pulled through the chamber and ejection port and detonated.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 2:37:48 PM EDT
[#7]
 Special Forces MACVSOG Jerry M. Shriver Story #SOG #mavsog #specialforces #greenberts |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 2:40:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Threads like this are why I still stick around.
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Posted: 11/26/2021 2:43:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryThat looks to be 200-300 GPF, versus the 50 GPF of standard military M456 Detcord. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 3:09:15 PM EDT
[#10]
One of the patrol tips the old Vietnam hands taught my LRRP company was "Daisy-chaining" a string of Claymores to each other with det-cord, so that when you hit the clacker you triggered two or three simultaneously to cover a space or kill zone.
Eventually (in Desert Storm prep) I showed my two engineers the technique, and we got a little more stand-off using XM122 radio blasting machines to blow up five-ton trucks pulled behind a wrecker using steel cables. That particular TTP looked familiar once we got to Iraq -- and they were hitting our vehicles on the main supply routes. Another break-contact / counter-pursuit technique was to hundred-mile-an-hour tape a CS tear gas or WP grenade to the front of a half-Claymore (a "Mini-more") with an M60 fuse ignitor and a one- or two-minute fuse. You took that out of the Claymore pouch on top your ruck, set it up to face your pursuers, pulled the pin on the fuse ignitor, and ran like hell. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 3:17:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the patrol tips the old Vietnam hands taught my LRRP company was "Daisy-chaining" a string of Claymores to each other with det-cord, so that when you hit the clacker you triggered two or three simultaneously to cover a space or kill zone. Eventually (in Desert Storm prep) I showed my two engineers the technique, and we got a little more stand-off using XM122 radio blasting machines to blow up five-ton trucks pulled behind a wrecker using steel cables. That particular TTP looked familiar once we got to Iraq -- and they were hitting our vehicles on the main supply routes. Another break-contact / counter-pursuit technique was to hundred-mile-an-hour tape a CS tear gas or WP grenade to the front of a half-Claymore (a "Mini-more) with an M60 fuse ignitor and a one- or two-minute fuse. You took that out of the Claymore pouch on top your ruck, set it up to face your pursuers, pulled the pin on the fuse ignitor, and ran like hell. Ive been daisy chaining them quite a bit since I have been in. It always blew my mind how few people even thought about why it has two detonator wells. The new ones come with nonelectric shock tube initiators or you can run your own line to the length you want. I'm a fan of being able to get more than 50' away and not having to carry around electric blasting caps. The fun one is remotely initiating an AT4. 
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Posted: 11/26/2021 3:20:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ive been daisy chaining them quite a bit since I have been in. It always blew my mind how few people even thought about why it has two detonator wells. The new ones come with nonelectric shock tube initiators or you can run your own line to the length you want. I'm a fan of being able to get more than 50' away and not having to carry around electric blasting caps. The fun one is remotely initiating an AT4. https://i.imgur.com/ahzYsqX.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: One of the patrol tips the old Vietnam hands taught my LRRP company was "Daisy-chaining" a string of Claymores to each other with det-cord, so that when you hit the clacker you triggered two or three simultaneously to cover a space or kill zone. Eventually (in Desert Storm prep) I showed my two engineers the technique, and we got a little more stand-off using XM122 radio blasting machines to blow up five-ton trucks pulled behind a wrecker using steel cables. That particular TTP looked familiar once we got to Iraq -- and they were hitting our vehicles on the main supply routes. Another break-contact / counter-pursuit technique was to hundred-mile-an-hour tape a CS tear gas or WP grenade to the front of a half-Claymore (a "Mini-more) with an M60 fuse ignitor and a one- or two-minute fuse. You took that out of the Claymore pouch on top your ruck, set it up to face your pursuers, pulled the pin on the fuse ignitor, and ran like hell. Ive been daisy chaining them quite a bit since I have been in. It always blew my mind how few people even thought about why it has two detonator wells. The new ones come with nonelectric shock tube initiators or you can run your own line to the length you want. I'm a fan of being able to get more than 50' away and not having to carry around electric blasting caps. The fun one is remotely initiating an AT4. https://i.imgur.com/ahzYsqX.jpg I knew about daisy chaining claymores, but a remotely fired AT4 is a new one to me. Details? |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 3:28:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I knew about daisy chaining claymores, but a remotely fired AT4 is a new one to me. Details? Just remove the cocking mechanism and expose the primer, tape on blasting cap. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 3:28:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe that I was the "old guy" that mentioned the welrod a few years ago. I was down in the arms room at a unit I was assigned to and there were a few dozen on one of those heavy duty rolling shelves. I handled one and it was brand new. Not sure what they were doing there or why. Wasn't any of my business so I didn't ask but it was kind of neat to handle a piece of history. I've also seen De lisle carbine in operational use. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thanks, I just always wondered who the hell even remembered the welrod at that point. I guess there were probably a bunch of old guys in leadership positions that were involved in some secret squirrel shit during WWII though. I believe that I was the "old guy" that mentioned the welrod a few years ago. I was down in the arms room at a unit I was assigned to and there were a few dozen on one of those heavy duty rolling shelves. I handled one and it was brand new. Not sure what they were doing there or why. Wasn't any of my business so I didn't ask but it was kind of neat to handle a piece of history. I've also seen De lisle carbine in operational use. Now that is a story I'd like to hear about! |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 3:30:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just remove the cocking mechanism and expose the primer, tape on blasting cap. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I knew about daisy chaining claymores, but a remotely fired AT4 is a new one to me. Details? Just remove the cocking mechanism and expose the primer, tape on blasting cap. So simple, so elegant. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 3:31:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: From this link: https://gatdaily.com/john-tilt-meyers-macv-sog-loadout/ 34 - 20 round magazines loaded 18 to a mag Sawed off M-79 grenade launcher with 12 rounds. Each team member carried this. 10-12 fragmentation grenades I assume water and some stripped down C-rats but that’s not stated here. My God that’s a ton to carry. You can carry a lot more whupass when you're not bogged down with multiple redundant anti-IED jammers, cases of bottled water (fucking clownshoes), assorted dangly armor bits, and who knows what other retarded bullshit. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 4:48:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The det cord with washers thing...what was the actual usefulness of that? Multipurpose usage while still staying low weight. On time fuse or a tripwire fuse it functions as an anti-pursuit device with some anti-personnel capability due to the improvised frag. It wouldn't be incredibly effective but the magic is in the fact that once a pursuing unit hit s boobytrap of any sort they now have to slow down and deliberately clear. It's also a good way to initiate an ambush with some shock and awe. It also has limited ability to be used for enemy cache or weapon reduction. It wont destroy much, but you aren't using a DShk anymore that had detcord pulled through the chamber and ejection port and detonated. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/111561/IMG_1096_jpg-2181903.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/111561/IMG_1097_JPG-2181905.JPG Yeah...I hoped it was something legit. Ive had a decent amateurs share of blowing some things up, and washers just seemed too randomized. The segmented wire for fragmentation like a grenade makes it all make sense. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 5:50:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Multipurpose usage while still staying low weight. On time fuse or a tripwire fuse it functions as an anti-pursuit device with some anti-personnel capability due to the improvised frag. It wouldn't be incredibly effective but the magic is in the fact that once a pursuing unit hit s boobytrap of any sort they now have to slow down and deliberately clear. It's also a good way to initiate an ambush with some shock and awe. It also has limited ability to be used for enemy cache or weapon reduction. It wont destroy much, but you aren't using a DShk anymore that had detcord pulled through the chamber and ejection port and detonated. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The det cord with washers thing...what was the actual usefulness of that? Multipurpose usage while still staying low weight. On time fuse or a tripwire fuse it functions as an anti-pursuit device with some anti-personnel capability due to the improvised frag. It wouldn't be incredibly effective but the magic is in the fact that once a pursuing unit hit s boobytrap of any sort they now have to slow down and deliberately clear. It's also a good way to initiate an ambush with some shock and awe. It also has limited ability to be used for enemy cache or weapon reduction. It wont destroy much, but you aren't using a DShk anymore that had detcord pulled through the chamber and ejection port and detonated. There may also be an element of not being captured alive involved too. Tilt mentioned carrying an M26 hooked to the top of his harness. He left it for last in case he needed it. The recon teams wore no insignia. They were deniable. They knew what would happen to them if they were captured. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 8:17:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There may also be an element of not being captured alive involved too. Tilt mentioned carrying an M26 hooked to the top of his harness. He left it for last in case he needed it. The recon teams wore no insignia. They were deniable. They knew what would happen to them if they were captured. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The det cord with washers thing...what was the actual usefulness of that? Multipurpose usage while still staying low weight. On time fuse or a tripwire fuse it functions as an anti-pursuit device with some anti-personnel capability due to the improvised frag. It wouldn't be incredibly effective but the magic is in the fact that once a pursuing unit hit s boobytrap of any sort they now have to slow down and deliberately clear. It's also a good way to initiate an ambush with some shock and awe. It also has limited ability to be used for enemy cache or weapon reduction. It wont destroy much, but you aren't using a DShk anymore that had detcord pulled through the chamber and ejection port and detonated. There may also be an element of not being captured alive involved too. Tilt mentioned carrying an M26 hooked to the top of his harness. He left it for last in case he needed it. The recon teams wore no insignia. They were deniable. They knew what would happen to them if they were captured. I have seen that photo in a few places and it is usually depicted as anti-pursuit. My understanding is usually as part of a break contact drill, the trail guy would set up a claymore on a fuse. There were all sorts of techniques for anti-pursuit. The chief advantage of that technique is it is obviously the quickest to employ so you aren't fumbling in your ruck or whatnot. Noting that that is over his LCE, I bet the user could employ it in a few seconds, while on the run. That unit spent a lot of time and energy figured out how to execute the core competency of "breaking contact and running to an LZ." I think another one was dropping two colored smoke grenades and by the time smoke wafted through the trees, that was an engagement area. I believe they also learned CS doesn't dissipate as much when combined with WP. Stuff like that. There are some archived photos from several years agolink I don't think that those recon units would spend a lot of time giving their position away with demo. That's a valid technique but not for what they were doing. Plaster wrote about this and IIRC rucksacks would include things you could do without, and would not include opsec things, so if pursued they could just drop rucks and do without. It looks like they kept half a pound of C4 in their rucksacks, but they could take an infinite amount of time. 1st Line/pockets: Watch, pocket knife, compass, signal mirror, pen flare gun with extra flares, emergency radio, strobe light, pen and paper, signal whistle, matches, signal panel, and water purification tablets. 2nd Line/LCE: Carbine with 21 magazines, six M67 frags, three mini grenades, poncho, two 1-qt canteens, smoke grenade, gas mask, 1911, and bandages. 3rd Line/ruck: Explosives, detonators, machete, Claymore mine, smoke grenades, one gallon of water, zip ties, alice pack. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 8:35:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Interesting character who ended up in Tehran trying to get US hostages freed.
MACV-SOG alumnus http://macvsog.cn/legend/Richard%20Meadows.htm |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 8:49:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe that I was the "old guy" that mentioned the welrod a few years ago. I was down in the arms room at a unit I was assigned to and there were a few dozen on one of those heavy duty rolling shelves. I handled one and it was brand new. Not sure what they were doing there or why. Wasn't any of my business so I didn't ask but it was kind of neat to handle a piece of history. I've also seen De lisle carbine in operational use. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thanks, I just always wondered who the hell even remembered the welrod at that point. I guess there were probably a bunch of old guys in leadership positions that were involved in some secret squirrel shit during WWII though. I believe that I was the "old guy" that mentioned the welrod a few years ago. I was down in the arms room at a unit I was assigned to and there were a few dozen on one of those heavy duty rolling shelves. I handled one and it was brand new. Not sure what they were doing there or why. Wasn't any of my business so I didn't ask but it was kind of neat to handle a piece of history. I've also seen De lisle carbine in operational use. That's really cool. I guess I always assumed that it was made in limited quantities and there were maybe a handful in existence. Neat to know that isn't the case. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 8:51:02 PM EDT
[#22]
OIF2
M16A4 13-30rd mags 2 frags 6 40mm HE 2 40mm smoke 1 40mm flare Plus all the other bullshit IBA, ACH, NVG, canelback/H2O, etc I had 21-25 more 30rd mags in my assault bag in our vehicle in case things got super spicy. An the mounted 240B had 2k rds. Last 3 months I dropped down to 9 mags as contact lessened. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 9:56:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There may also be an element of not being captured alive involved too. Tilt mentioned carrying an M26 hooked to the top of his harness. He left it for last in case he needed it. The recon teams wore no insignia. They were deniable. They knew what would happen to them if they were captured. Well, they have that TTP down solid in Syria. Apparantly ISIS CIF made them all sign for suicide belts. I saw them on literally every one of them. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 11:38:55 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, they have that TTP down solid in Syria. Apparantly ISIS CIF made them all sign for suicide belts. I saw them on literally every one of them. One like this? 
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Posted: 11/27/2021 12:30:52 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I rember some steel, commercially available 40 round mags in the early 90s. I might have one, I will post a pic if I find it. Maybe English made, Sterlings for the AR18. I have a few and they work fine. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 2:04:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SFC Bob Howard with a cut down M-14. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/107472/ADD886B8-3A70-49E7-B5B9-4DC81A3DB70D-2180440.png Talk about a fucking legend. Almost unbelievable his list of decorations and tabs. Also amazing he didn't perish in Vietnam, given his decorations, but fucking cancer got him at only 70.  Great thread BTW, thanks for starting OP. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 3:37:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting character who ended up in Tehran trying to get US hostages freed. MACV-SOG alumnus http://macvsog.cn/legend/Richard%20Meadows.htm What Sugarfoot accomplished in Tehran pales in comparison to his Vietnam resume, IMHO. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 3:43:39 AM EDT
[#28]
Interesting
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Posted: 11/27/2021 3:59:57 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hard to imagine anyone with actual experience getting shot at saying "I wish I wasn't carrying so much ammo". There are a lot of examples, GWOT and otherwise, of guys being way too heavily loaded for their missions. Really common at the outset of things, when everyone wants to be loaded for bear. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 4:41:35 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Time for more pictures... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/IMG_20210607_201818_094-1971881.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/20210608_130554-1971628.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/20210608_130543-1971626.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/20210608_130530-1971625.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/20210608_130512-1971624.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/20210608_130502-1971623.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/20210608_130454-1971622.jpg And a new book I just got to add to the other two: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/IMG_20211122_153038_157-2180016.jpg I have both of the SOG books. Great reading. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 4:57:05 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting character who ended up in Tehran trying to get US hostages freed. MACV-SOG alumnus http://macvsog.cn/legend/Richard%20Meadows.htm Has anyone ever shot a Son Tay Raider type set up? How big an advantage was it over irons? |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 7:01:39 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are a lot of examples, GWOT and otherwise, of guys being way too heavily loaded for their missions. Really common at the outset of things, when everyone wants to be loaded for bear. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hard to imagine anyone with actual experience getting shot at saying "I wish I wasn't carrying so much ammo". There are a lot of examples, GWOT and otherwise, of guys being way too heavily loaded for their missions. Really common at the outset of things, when everyone wants to be loaded for bear. I know the Jocko podcast has already been mentioned. He did "The Things they Carried" with Retired SEAL Leif Babbin. Leif spoke about his first patrol in Iraq. He said he took so many grenades he couldn't wait to use them so he didn't have to carry them back. He pared down his loadout after that.  Jocko Podcast 65 w/ Leif Babin - What to Carry to Be Prepared for Battle and Life |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 8:44:08 AM EDT
[#33]
Don't have too much to add, but it's interesting reading information here and comparing to what I hear from my dad. He was in RT Virginia, and has some great shots here:
http://www.modernforces.com/veterans_John_McGovern.htm I know my time for hearing his stories is running out ( ), so all this is inspiring me to get more time while I can.
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Posted: 11/27/2021 9:09:11 AM EDT
[#34]
Now that’s one badass dad !!!
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't have too much to add, but it's interesting reading information here and comparing to what I hear from my dad. He was in RT Virginia, and has some great shots here: http://www.modernforces.com/veterans_John_McGovern.htm I know my time for hearing his stories is running out ( ), so all this is inspiring me to get more time while I can. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 10:01:14 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Talk about a fucking legend. Almost unbelievable his list of decorations and tabs. Also amazing he didn't perish in Vietnam, given his decorations, but fucking cancer got him at only 70. Great thread BTW, thanks for starting OP. When I went through SERE Instructor at MacKall under Nick Rowe, Bob Howard was the OIC of the camp. I also bumped into him at a bar in San Antonio , out the back gate of Ft Sam….Betty's Bunker I believe? He was a legend. He's also the guy that refused to squash the info on POWs still being kept captive in Vietnam, which functionally ended his career. I believe that's why he was at MacKall. As for Dick Meadows…..referring to him as a "character" is very, very uninformed. There's a reason why there's a statue of him at Bragg. Ya'll need to read up on him as well as COL Howard. These are men that we should aspire to be.  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 10:21:16 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now that’s one badass dad !!! No disagreement! I know I will never get to hear the full story on everything he did in country, but just the tidbits I have heard are amazing. Even just the training he has is impressive ( hell, looking at the pictures, I can't imagine dangling below the helo like that). As far as loadout, he definitely mentioned using the pictured CAR-15; he mentioned a few times where the regular army guys called out "here come those SF guys with those classified guns".. 
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Posted: 11/27/2021 10:34:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't have too much to add, but it's interesting reading information here and comparing to what I hear from my dad. He was in RT Virginia, and has some great shots here: http://www.modernforces.com/veterans_John_McGovern.htm I know my time for hearing his stories is running out ( ), so all this is inspiring me to get more time while I can.Holy smokes bro, I had no idea your father is John McGovern. What a total stud of a recon man, by all accounts. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 10:41:25 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know the Jocko podcast has already been mentioned. He did "The Things they Carried" with Retired SEAL Leif Babbin. Leif spoke about his first patrol in Iraq. He said he took so many grenades he couldn't wait to use them so he didn't have to carry them back. He pared down his loadout after that.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZwErag67rEQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hard to imagine anyone with actual experience getting shot at saying "I wish I wasn't carrying so much ammo". There are a lot of examples, GWOT and otherwise, of guys being way too heavily loaded for their missions. Really common at the outset of things, when everyone wants to be loaded for bear. I know the Jocko podcast has already been mentioned. He did "The Things they Carried" with Retired SEAL Leif Babbin. Leif spoke about his first patrol in Iraq. He said he took so many grenades he couldn't wait to use them so he didn't have to carry them back. He pared down his loadout after that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZwErag67rE |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 10:44:00 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy smokes bro, I had no idea your father is John McGovern. What a total stud of a recon man, by all accounts. Hah, no.. I said my dad is on that page, but he is NOT John. No than that for Opsec though. 
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Posted: 11/27/2021 11:40:41 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a Scout Pilot that could smell the bad guys before he actually found them as he buzzed the treetops in his Loach. He really could. When we heard him say "I smell 'em" we had to get ready because that meant he was about to get shot at. Without fail he always did. He had an incredible sense of smell or they were extremely smelly and he knew what their smell was. Maybe both. They had to really smell like nuoc mam, because there are several other scout pilots who said the same thing in various books. Of course when I mentioned it a few years ago, Sylvan and some others waved their bullshit hankies. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 11:43:41 AM EDT
[#41]
In the original spirit of this thread:
A MACV-SOG THANKSGIVING: WHEN 6 COMMANDOS TOOK ON 30,000 ENEMY TROOPS |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 12:11:31 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They had to really smell like nuoc mam, because there are several other scout pilots who said the same thing in various books. Of course when I mentioned it a few years ago, Sylvan and some others waved their bullshit hankies. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had a Scout Pilot that could smell the bad guys before he actually found them as he buzzed the treetops in his Loach. He really could. When we heard him say "I smell 'em" we had to get ready because that meant he was about to get shot at. Without fail he always did. He had an incredible sense of smell or they were extremely smelly and he knew what their smell was. Maybe both. They had to really smell like nuoc mam, because there are several other scout pilots who said the same thing in various books. Of course when I mentioned it a few years ago, Sylvan and some others waved their bullshit hankies. My Scout Pilot did it on a regular basis, so I know it wasn't just a lucky fluke. The angry little brown folks must have oozed nuc mam from their pours along with never showering. Nuc mam is some nasty stuff, but didn't taste bad if you could get past the smell. Our guys in the field would not use any soap or shampoo or any other toiletry items before going out because the bad guys could smell that on them as well. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 12:12:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Multipurpose usage while still staying low weight. On time fuse or a tripwire fuse it functions as an anti-pursuit device with some anti-personnel capability due to the improvised frag. It wouldn't be incredibly effective but the magic is in the fact that once a pursuing unit hit s boobytrap of any sort they now have to slow down and deliberately clear. It's also a good way to initiate an ambush with some shock and awe. It also has limited ability to be used for enemy cache or weapon reduction. It wont destroy much, but you aren't using a DShk anymore that had detcord pulled through the chamber and ejection port and detonated. I vaguely remember the Det Cord/Washer utility was something along the first lines you had mentioned. The second application, makes all to much sense. How SOG guys improvised stuff is nothing short of genius. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 1:03:27 PM EDT
[#44]
Yeah, there is a fine line between having too much shit, and not enough.
We carried way too much shit, better to have and not need, I guess....... but I never heard anybody say, ever "we had too much ammo" |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 1:07:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hah, no.. I said my dad is on that page, but he is NOT John. No than that for Opsec though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Holy smokes bro, I had no idea your father is John McGovern. What a total stud of a recon man, by all accounts. Hah, no.. I said my dad is on that page, but he is NOT John. No than that for Opsec though. Ah shit, my mistake. |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 5:28:23 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our guys in the field would not use any soap or shampoo or any other toiletry items before going out because the bad guys could smell that on them as well. I was told similar by a family friend after he'd been in the British Army for some time and had a few interesting tours in various places - this was late 70's early 80's - pre Falklands He said that ANY modern deodorant could be smelt a LONG way away when he was doing jungle training in Belize - something as simple as toothpaste could be picked up from several hundred metres Another mate of mine was in the Royal Green Jackets - he found out I was into US .mil stuff and had a rummage in his stash, produced a couple of patches for me = seems he'd gone through the JFK SWC back in the day. He'd also spent some time in Rhodesia....even showed me some pics of him from that time in an article in SoF mag. He had a few souvenir problems from the Rhodesia days - they'd stopped after an ambush for a brew & tab, when one of the dead terrs sat up & sprayed them with an AK. One of his mates pulled him backwards over the tree he was sitting on = saved his life but his legs got a few extra holes! |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 6:14:16 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was told similar by a family friend after he'd been in the British Army for some time and had a few interesting tours in various places - this was late 70's early 80's - pre Falklands He said that ANY modern deodorant could be smelt a LONG way away when he was doing jungle training in Belize - something as simple as toothpaste could be picked up from several hundred metres Another mate of mine was in the Royal Green Jackets - he found out I was into US .mil stuff and had a rummage in his stash, produced a couple of patches for me = seems he'd gone through the JFK SWC back in the day. He'd also spent some time in Rhodesia....even showed me some pics of him from that time in an article in SoF mag. He had a few souvenir problems from the Rhodesia days - they'd stopped after an ambush for a brew & tab, when one of the dead terrs sat up & sprayed them with an AK. One of his mates pulled him backwards over the tree he was sitting on = saved his life but his legs got a few extra holes! Forgot to pay the insurance! |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 6:38:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess this is one way to carry it all. Not sure what the chest rig is. Maybe a claymore mine bag or a med kit or gas mask bag? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/107472/1274F47A-66AB-40DD-951E-CE7C0EDEE370-2180441.jpg I didn't know the comedian Jay Mohr was in Vietnam? |
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Posted: 11/27/2021 8:22:35 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I went through SERE Instructor at MacKall under Nick Rowe, Bob Howard was the OIC of the camp. I also bumped into him at a bar in San Antonio , out the back gate of Ft Sam….Betty's Bunker I believe? He was a legend. He's also the guy that refused to squash the info on POWs still being kept captive in Vietnam, which functionally ended his career. I believe that's why he was at MacKall. As for Dick Meadows…..referring to him as a "character" is very, very uninformed. There's a reason why there's a statue of him at Bragg. Ya'll need to read up on him as well as COL Howard. These are men that we should aspire to be. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/696/dick_meadows_jpeg-2182720.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Talk about a fucking legend. Almost unbelievable his list of decorations and tabs. Also amazing he didn't perish in Vietnam, given his decorations, but fucking cancer got him at only 70. Great thread BTW, thanks for starting OP. When I went through SERE Instructor at MacKall under Nick Rowe, Bob Howard was the OIC of the camp. I also bumped into him at a bar in San Antonio , out the back gate of Ft Sam….Betty's Bunker I believe? He was a legend. He's also the guy that refused to squash the info on POWs still being kept captive in Vietnam, which functionally ended his career. I believe that's why he was at MacKall. As for Dick Meadows…..referring to him as a "character" is very, very uninformed. There's a reason why there's a statue of him at Bragg. Ya'll need to read up on him as well as COL Howard. These are men that we should aspire to be. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/696/dick_meadows_jpeg-2182720.JPG I've never served, and really envy you for having met Col Howard. I couldn't care less about celebrities and sports ball people or any of those scum, but I don't think I could even look someone like Col Howard in the eye if I ever met him or just ran into him. |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 7:07:20 AM EDT
[#50]
In the book "We Few" by Nick Brokhausen, he mentions useing something called a "Nightingale Device" that the CIA had developed. He said it was roughly 3' by 4' and looked like a chainlink fence gate with lumps all over the inside. It was a pyrotechnic device with a latticework of fuses going to different size M-80s and firecrackers that pretty convincingly mimmicked the sound of a firefight including AKs, Car-15s, and hand grenades. They would do false insertions and light/ toss one out the chopper and it would sound like all hell was breaking loose while they flew and inserted elsewhere.
Now, Im kindof a pyro-nutter when it comes to fireworks. This is one of the coolest devices Iv ever heard of. Does anybody by chance have any more info or perhaps a reference pic of one of them? Be cool as hell for a modern class B (or whatever class) fireworks manufacturer to make a reproduction of! |
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