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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:20:55 AM EDT
[#1]
Christianity got it wrong on homos. It's not a sin.
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:22:06 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's all sorts of stuff about all kinds of sexual immorality in the Bible. One of my friends likes to play the "homosexuality is condemned in the Bible!" card while he has behaved in ways that are equally condemned. But that's different... 
I'm not giving anyone a free pass, but people do tend to cherry pick which sins they get upset about. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Read the bible homosexuality along with other sexual depravity is an anathema to Christianity...
I'm not giving anyone a free pass, but people do tend to cherry pick which sins they get upset about. Part of why the Supreme Being wrote a Bible in the first place, IMHO. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:25:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Christianity got it wrong on homos. It's not a sin. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:26:30 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll take your share of the shellfish then. :) Am I mistaken? |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:31:37 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: where is he wrong? original Hebrew Book of Genesis: 6:6 -- And the Lord regretted that He had made man upon the earth, and He became grieved in His heart. King James Bible Book of Genesis: 6:6 -- And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Regret and Repent have different meanings in English. Regret: to mourn the loss or death of; to miss very much; to be very sorry for. Repent: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life; to feel regret or contrition; to change one's mind; to cause to feel regret or contrition; to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:34:31 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
. As someone in this group once said "I like big boobed redheads but I'm not having a parade over it". |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:43:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most of us here have never had that experience. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:48:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's this thing called the internet - maybe you heard of it? Twentieth Century Encyclopedia of Catholicism (emphasis mine) "The missionary history of the [Catholic] Church clearly shows her adaptability to all races, all continents, all nations. In her liturgy and her art, in her tradition and the forming of her doctrine, naturally enough she includes Jewish elements, but also elements that are of pagan origin. In certain respects, she has copied her organization from that of the Roman Empire, has preserved and made fruitful the philosophical intuitions of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, borrowed from both Barbarians and the Byzantine Roman Empire—but always remains herself, thoroughly digesting all elements drawn from external sources...In her laws, her ceremonies, her festivals and her devotions, she makes use of local customs after purifying them and "baptizing" them. " |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:52:29 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, how is baptism referenced ignoring Christ when he specifically commanded us to "go forth and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: There's this thing called the internet - maybe you heard of it? Twentieth Century Encyclopedia of Catholicism (emphasis mine) "The missionary history of the [Catholic] Church clearly shows her adaptability to all races, all continents, all nations. In her liturgy and her art, in her tradition and the forming of her doctrine, naturally enough she includes Jewish elements, but also elements that are of pagan origin. In certain respects, she has copied her organization from that of the Roman Empire, has preserved and made fruitful the philosophical intuitions of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, borrowed from both Barbarians and the Byzantine Roman Empire—but always remains herself, thoroughly digesting all elements drawn from external sources...In her laws, her ceremonies, her festivals and her devotions, she makes use of local customs after purifying them and "baptizing" them. " "In forming 'her' doctrine the church includes elements that are of pagan origin ..." Says it right there. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:53:24 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bullshit. GD is full of faggotry. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:56:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There isn't a patron saint of gun owners. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 11:58:29 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There isn't a patron saint of gun owners. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Is it your assertion that Catholic doctrine does not follow the Bible? https://gunowners.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/st-gabriel-possenti-patron-saint-of-gun-owners/ The saint of this, the saint of that, the saint of dog-walkers ... It's analogous to pagan practices. The god of this, god of that, god of this town, god of that element ... derp. ETA: And it isn't taught by Christ. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:05:09 PM EDT
[#13]
I'm so glad this thread turned into a Catholic vs LDS vs Protestant purse-swinging contest.
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:09:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sources for "worship of Mary" ... ? 
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. —?Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV) |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:15:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm so glad this thread turned into a Catholic vs LDS vs Protestant purse-swinging contest. 
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:15:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  I don't argue with that. I'm not saying that something that is called a sin in the Bible isn't a sin. I guess I'm saying that someone who also sins (in a different way) shouldn't get super high-and-mighty and do the "but that's different" about their sin, while getting all sanctimoniously condemning about someone else's.Someone who won't acknowledge their sin and feels that there's nothing wrong is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Unrepentant practicing homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, liars, murderers, etc. should not be officers or teachers in a Church. Until such time as they can bring their own lives in compliance with God's direction, how can they help others to do the same? |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:15:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They have different, but over-lapping meanings, one of which is to be sorry for. Based on the context of the text, this is the meaning intended by all parties. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: where is he wrong? original Hebrew Book of Genesis: 6:6 -- And the Lord regretted that He had made man upon the earth, and He became grieved in His heart. King James Bible Book of Genesis: 6:6 -- And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Regret and Repent have different meanings in English. Regret: to mourn the loss or death of; to miss very much; to be very sorry for. Repent: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life; to feel regret or contrition; to change one's mind; to cause to feel regret or contrition; to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:17:07 PM EDT
[#18]
Color me shocked that they did the right thing...
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2019/02/27/methodist-church-preserves-lgbtq-restrictions-local-methodists-react/2990315002/ |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:20:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... All I'm saying is that plenty of Joe and Jane Whorearounds would be quite butthurt if a fellow Christian or church pastor called them out for whoring around. They may not demand that the church sanction their whoring officially, mainly because they're so used to everyone not saying anything about it in the first place. They think it's no big deal. If anyone actually pointed out how the Bible condemns it, they'd be like ??? Because obviously, that's different. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:55:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, how is baptism referenced ignoring Christ when he specifically commanded us to "go forth and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: There's this thing called the internet - maybe you heard of it? Twentieth Century Encyclopedia of Catholicism (emphasis mine) "The missionary history of the [Catholic] Church clearly shows her adaptability to all races, all continents, all nations. In her liturgy and her art, in her tradition and the forming of her doctrine, naturally enough she includes Jewish elements, but also elements that are of pagan origin. In certain respects, she has copied her organization from that of the Roman Empire, has preserved and made fruitful the philosophical intuitions of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, borrowed from both Barbarians and the Byzantine Roman Empire—but always remains herself, thoroughly digesting all elements drawn from external sources...In her laws, her ceremonies, her festivals and her devotions, she makes use of local customs after purifying them and "baptizing" them. " |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:57:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Women should never be in a position of authority over adult men in a Christian church. Unrepentant practicing homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, liars, murderers, etc. should not be officers or teachers in a Church. Until such time as they can bring their own lives in compliance with God's direction, how can they help others to do the same? |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 12:57:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL..."please knock down my Elizabethian England propaganda!" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Please to quote me the scriptures that outline the procedures for purchasing an indulgence to get someone out of purgatory, or torturing Jews to get them to convert. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:04:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There isn't a patron saint of gun owners. "Gabriel was beatified by Pope Pius X on May 31, 1908. Present at the ceremony were his brother Michael, his companion Brother Sylvester, and his director, Father Norbert. The outbreak of the First World War delayed Gabriel’s canonisation for a while, but on May 13, 1920, he was raised to the altars by Pope Benedict XV.[14] " |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:06:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Christianity got it wrong on homos. It's not a sin. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:08:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Disciples are people, not pagan customs and rituals. Please to reference the Bible where Jesus or the Apostles state to take in pagan customs in any form whatsoever, or specify the process by which they are to be "baptized" before use. Baptism itself is a pagan custom, you know that right? Egyptians were baptized for thousands of years before Christ. Do you know anything about the religious environment of Rome? Christianity is Essene/Pagan syncretism. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:11:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: except people then take "repent" and do NOT assign a "be sorry for" meaning to it. Instead, they assign whatever meaning they please to support their theological points. Which is akin to calling a barrel shroud "the shoulder thing that goes up." |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:12:36 PM EDT
[#27]
There was originally one bible, and from that came many different interpretations and churches. Each interpretation and church would have people believe that they are the only "TRUE" and correct religion. However, it is obvious that not all of them can be true and correct at the same time. Pick one...or maybe a different one...they would all have people believe that they are true and correct.
Churches are their own worst enemies in that if they cannot agree on what is true or correct, so it is unreasonable to think that the any of congregants of the various churches will agree on much. After some of the most basic tenets are agreed on (existence of God, and for the Christian churches in Christ), almost all of the churches start disagreeing over interpretations. People are then free to pick the interpretation that agrees with what they find makes their life most agreeable. Few people will pick a church that continually tells them that their life choices are all wrong. Church hierarchy isn't completely stupid. They realize that unless they can recruit members, money will begin to fall off, and with the lack of money power, influence, and their ability to "sell" their set of tenets will die. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:13:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Biblical reference? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Women should never be in a position of authority over adult men in a Christian church. Unrepentant practicing homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, liars, murderers, etc. should not be officers or teachers in a Church. Until such time as they can bring their own lives in compliance with God's direction, how can they help others to do the same? |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:13:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Disciples and apostles are two different things. Baptism itself is a pagan custom, you know that right? Egyptians were baptized for thousands of years before Christ. Do you know anything about the religious environment of Rome? Christianity is Essene/Pagan syncretism. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:16:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Disciples and apostles are two different things. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Disciples are people, not pagan customs and rituals. Please to reference the Bible where Jesus or the Apostles state to take in pagan customs in any form whatsoever, or specify the process by which they are to be "baptized" before use. Baptism itself is a pagan custom, you know that right? Egyptians were baptized for thousands of years before Christ. Do you know anything about the religious environment of Rome? Christianity is Essene/Pagan syncretism. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:26:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Apostle Paul: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent" (1 Timothy 2:11-12). |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:27:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Women should never be in a position of authority over adult men in a Christian church. Unrepentant practicing homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, liars, murderers, etc. should not be officers or teachers in a Church. Until such time as they can bring their own lives in compliance with God's direction, how can they help others to do the same? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I don't argue with that. I'm not saying that something that is called a sin in the Bible isn't a sin. I guess I'm saying that someone who also sins (in a different way) shouldn't get super high-and-mighty and do the "but that's different" about their sin, while getting all sanctimoniously condemning about someone else's.Someone who won't acknowledge their sin and feels that there's nothing wrong is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Unrepentant practicing homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, liars, murderers, etc. should not be officers or teachers in a Church. Until such time as they can bring their own lives in compliance with God's direction, how can they help others to do the same? But of course, Romans 4:5-8, 5:20, and 6:11. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:27:31 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Christianity got it wrong on homos. It's not a sin. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:29:36 PM EDT
[#34]
It's ironic that the Methodist LGBTQ folks stirred this whole issue up.
I know a Methodist church that has mostly gay parishioners. Before this "Traditional Plan" was passed, they could have probably have appointed a gay minister. No one would have cared. Now, the "Traditional Plan" obligates the church to report/punish openly gay ministers. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:32:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
except people then take "repent" and do NOT assign a "be sorry for" meaning to it. Instead, they assign whatever meaning they please to support their theological points. Which is akin to calling a barrel shroud "the shoulder thing that goes up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: where is he wrong? original Hebrew Book of Genesis: 6:6 -- And the Lord regretted that He had made man upon the earth, and He became grieved in His heart. King James Bible Book of Genesis: 6:6 -- And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Regret and Repent have different meanings in English. Regret: to mourn the loss or death of; to miss very much; to be very sorry for. Repent: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life; to feel regret or contrition; to change one's mind; to cause to feel regret or contrition; to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for The way many churches abuse that word, you'd think they'd be ripping out the Gospel of John for being false, considering the lack of repentance and John 20:31. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:33:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would not completely agree. look at the roots of the word: "Re-" meaning to repeat something over as in repeat, revolve, resume, "-pent" meaning "to think or ponder", as in pensive, penitentiary. It can clearly mean "On second thought, my first thinking was wrong". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: except people then take "repent" and do NOT assign a "be sorry for" meaning to it. Instead, they assign whatever meaning they please to support their theological points. Which is akin to calling a barrel shroud "the shoulder thing that goes up." |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:36:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Apostle Paul: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent" (1 Timothy 2:11-12). ETA: another view is that he's rejecting the teachings on gender roles within Artemis worship - IIRC there's ambiguity about "have authority" which is sometimes translated as "usurp authority". The Greek word () refers to domination, not merely having a role in churches that even men aren't to use to dominate others. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 1:38:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Apostle Paul: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent" (1 Timothy 2:11-12). |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 2:18:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm so glad this thread turned into a Catholic vs LDS vs Protestant purse-swinging contest.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 2:21:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don’t mean this to sound argumentative or confrontational (not singling you out- your post/reply is just handy for what I’m talking about in general): For the most part the other sinners (all of us are sinners of course) don’t demand that our sins be sanctioned and celebrated by the church. I’ll take your example of “Joe Whorearound” and use it. The difference seems to be that Joe isn’t trying to force the church into celebrating and sanctioning his immoral behavior. If he were to come to church with his “whore” dangling on his arm, wife on the other, demand you change your way of thinking about him, “accept” that it’s now “moral” behavior, and then force the church into officially sanctifying his adulterous relationships via some kind of official ceremony, all in spite of scripture, then I’d agree they were the same. Buuut... that isn’t happening in any kind of organized movement, so I don’t think they are. I don’t hate gay people for being gay. I DO hate the acts of some in celebrating a sin while rubbing my face in it constantly, demanding I change my views, and then demanding I restructure my very faith to incorporate a celebration of their behavior, all while defying scripture completely. Maybe I’m wrong or missed it, but nowhere else do I see a similar group trying to intentionally fracture the church and turn scripture on it’s head to push their agenda. I believe this is the primary reason you are seeing a stronger reaction to homosexuality from many of us vs. other sins. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don’t understand where people keep getting this. What particular sin other than homosexuality do you feel the church is being asked to celebrate/normalize/portray as heroic/ etc...??? ETA: Example- Drunkenness... Do you see anyone here demanding alcoholic clergy? Murder- Do you see anyone demanding clergy having actually participated in genocide? Adultery- do you see anyone demanding preachers who try poaching the flock’s spouses? I’m not seeing it. I’m not even gonna go into bestiality... This predates the whole Methodist church trying to celebrate homosexuality. I'm not onboard with that. Quoted: Ahhh. I have my own sin to worry about. I'll help out another with theirs If possible, but I'm too busy to judge it. That doesn't mean I want to mainstream their sin, though. I'm just saying on a personal level, I've seen many people turn a blind eye to drunkeness, whoring around, all sorts of things, but when it's gay people—oh wait—THAT'S DIFFERENT and they cite the Bible as their reason for being so offended. That doesn't wash. When the Apostle Paul condemned homosexuality, it rang true because he was consistent in how he lived his life. When Joe Whorearound condemns it...not so much. It doesn't mean that Joe Whorearound is biblically "wrong" when he condemns homosexuality... but really? Him? With how he lives, he gets all high and mighty? You see what I'm saying here? ETA: I personally take a "pray for them and love them" stance towards gay people. Jesus didn't command that I make their lives miserable. I do wonder why some gay people believe they were born that way. I don't understand that. But that is neither here nor there. I'm just saying that you can't go wrong by praying for God's best for them and not being an asshole to them. (But if they want to get my church to perform their wedding, they will get a polite refusal. I'm just saying.) For the most part the other sinners (all of us are sinners of course) don’t demand that our sins be sanctioned and celebrated by the church. I’ll take your example of “Joe Whorearound” and use it. The difference seems to be that Joe isn’t trying to force the church into celebrating and sanctioning his immoral behavior. If he were to come to church with his “whore” dangling on his arm, wife on the other, demand you change your way of thinking about him, “accept” that it’s now “moral” behavior, and then force the church into officially sanctifying his adulterous relationships via some kind of official ceremony, all in spite of scripture, then I’d agree they were the same. Buuut... that isn’t happening in any kind of organized movement, so I don’t think they are. I don’t hate gay people for being gay. I DO hate the acts of some in celebrating a sin while rubbing my face in it constantly, demanding I change my views, and then demanding I restructure my very faith to incorporate a celebration of their behavior, all while defying scripture completely. Maybe I’m wrong or missed it, but nowhere else do I see a similar group trying to intentionally fracture the church and turn scripture on it’s head to push their agenda. I believe this is the primary reason you are seeing a stronger reaction to homosexuality from many of us vs. other sins. God takes the sins that have to do with taking of or creating life very seriously. Our procreative powers are very sacred, which is why the adversary pollutes them, defiles them, and cheapens them. If you are found to be an unrepentant violator of commandments, you are normally disfellowshipped or excommunicated from the Church. The LGBTQ movement seeks to normalize perversion of our procreative powers that are specifically called out by God as abominations before Him. Satan tells people that these perverted feelings are natural, and that the naturally-ordained interaction between man and woman are just one option (especially out of wedlock). Then he uses the angle of hatred and judgement, making people who chose to follow his plan for misery feel that they are being wrongfully judged and hated by others who disapprove of their lifestyles. The world adopts satan's plan as usual, calls it good and worthy of praise, giving LGBTQ people elevated status as a protected class. The school system and entertainment have been at the forefront of pushing this agenda. The purpose of that is to drive a deeper wedge between people at every possibility, while targeting churches as either haters or accepters. As the world has accepted and worshipped deviant behaviors and lifestyles, these people expect the same recognition and status within whatever Churches they are targeting at the time, in this case UMC. Since 1972, the United Methodist Church, as its official position on homosexuality, has maintained the Book of Discipline and has declared "homosexual practice" to be "incompatible with Christian teaching." Following the 1972 incompatibility clause, other restrictions have been added at subsequent General Conferences. Currently the Book of Discipline prohibits the ordination of "practicing, self-avowed homosexuals," forbids clergy from blessing or presiding over same-sex unions, forbids the use of UMC facilities for same-sex union ceremonies and prohibits the use of Church funds for "gay caucuses", or other groups that "promote the acceptance of homosexuality." In 1993, the Methodist Conference passed six resolutions on human sexuality (see below), including a Resolution 6 which
“recognized, affirmed and celebrated the participation and ministry of lesbian and gay people in the Methodist Church”. Furthermore, it called on the Methodist people to begin a pilgrimage of faith to combat repression and discrimination, to work for justice and human rights and to give dignity and worth to people whatever their sexual orientation. In passing these resolutions, the Methodist Conference made its opposition to homophobia known. In 2014 the Methodist Conference 2014 reaffirmed the current Methodist Standing Orders which state the belief, "that marriage is a gift of God and that it is God's intention that a marriage should be a life-long union in body, mind and spirit of one man and one woman." But, at the same time recognised that since 1993 British Methodists explicitly recognised, affirmed and celebrated the participation and ministry of lesbians and gay men, and been committed to a pilgrimage of faith to combat discrimination and give dignity and worth to people whatever their sexuality. The Conference in 2014 confirmed that there was no reason why Methodists may not enter legally formed same sex marriage (e.g. civil marriage or marriage in another denomination) or form a civil partnership. I'm looking at a list of all the Christian denominations and who allows, ordains, and marries active homosexuals, and the list is staggering in how quickly this movement has taken over across the spectrum of Churches. This was simply heretical not too long ago, and would have been unimaginable to most. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 2:22:20 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's okay for Ms Rainbow Lesbian to demand that a church marry her and her girlfriend if the church isn't wired that way. I understand the distinction you're trying to make. All I'm saying is that plenty of Joe and Jane Whorearounds would be quite butthurt if a fellow Christian or church pastor called them out for whoring around. They may not demand that the church sanction their whoring officially, mainly because they're so used to everyone not saying anything about it in the first place. They think it's no big deal. If anyone actually pointed out how the Bible condemns it, they'd be like ??? Because obviously, that's different. I'm basing this on what I've personally witnessed, as well as complaints I've heard from preachers (well, I've read complaints or heard in their sermons). Whoring around with the opposite sex is one thing, but whoring around with the same sex is a whole 'nother thing! That's what some people think. It really does depend on the church, and how regular a church-goer they are. I wouldn't imagine that every church would let that kind of behavior slide. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I don’t mean this to sound argumentative or confrontational (not singling you out- your post/reply is just handy for what I’m talking about in general): For the most part the other sinners (all of us are sinners of course) don’t demand that our sins be sanctioned and celebrated by the church. I’ll take your example of “Joe Whorearound” and use it. The difference seems to be that Joe isn’t trying to force the church into celebrating and sanctioning his immoral behavior. If he were to come to church with his “whore” dangling on his arm, wife on the other, demand you change your way of thinking about him, “accept” that it’s now “moral” behavior, and then force the church into officially sanctifying his adulterous relationships via some kind of official ceremony, all in spite of scripture, then I’d agree they were the same. Buuut... that isn’t happening in any kind of organized movement, so I don’t think they are. I don’t hate gay people for being gay. I DO hate the acts of some in celebrating a sin while rubbing my face in it constantly, demanding I change my views, and then demanding I restructure my very faith to incorporate a celebration of their behavior, all while defying scripture completely. Maybe I’m wrong or missed it, but nowhere else do I see a similar group trying to intentionally fracture the church and turn scripture on it’s head to push their agenda. I believe this is the primary reason you are seeing a stronger reaction to homosexuality from many of us vs. other sins. I understand the distinction you're trying to make. All I'm saying is that plenty of Joe and Jane Whorearounds would be quite butthurt if a fellow Christian or church pastor called them out for whoring around. They may not demand that the church sanction their whoring officially, mainly because they're so used to everyone not saying anything about it in the first place. They think it's no big deal. If anyone actually pointed out how the Bible condemns it, they'd be like ??? Because obviously, that's different. I'm basing this on what I've personally witnessed, as well as complaints I've heard from preachers (well, I've read complaints or heard in their sermons). Whoring around with the opposite sex is one thing, but whoring around with the same sex is a whole 'nother thing! That's what some people think. It really does depend on the church, and how regular a church-goer they are. I wouldn't imagine that every church would let that kind of behavior slide. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 2:25:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOrQuoted:
If you're an unrepentant whoremonger, you normally get excommunicated from whatever church it is you belong to. Quote HistoryOrQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: I don't mean this to sound argumentative or confrontational (not singling you out- your post/reply is just handy for what I'm talking about in general): For the most part the other sinners (all of us are sinners of course) don't demand that our sins be sanctioned and celebrated by the church. I'll take your example of "Joe Whorearound" and use it. The difference seems to be that Joe isn't trying to force the church into celebrating and sanctioning his immoral behavior. If he were to come to church with his "whore" dangling on his arm, wife on the other, demand you change your way of thinking about him, "accept" that it's now "moral" behavior, and then force the church into officially sanctifying his adulterous relationships via some kind of official ceremony, all in spite of scripture, then I'd agree they were the same. Buuut... that isn't happening in any kind of organized movement, so I don't think they are. I don't hate gay people for being gay. I DO hate the acts of some in celebrating a sin while rubbing my face in it constantly, demanding I change my views, and then demanding I restructure my very faith to incorporate a celebration of their behavior, all while defying scripture completely. Maybe I'm wrong or missed it, but nowhere else do I see a similar group trying to intentionally fracture the church and turn scripture on it's head to push their agenda. I believe this is the primary reason you are seeing a stronger reaction to homosexuality from many of us vs. other sins. I understand the distinction you're trying to make. All I'm saying is that plenty of Joe and Jane Whorearounds would be quite butthurt if a fellow Christian or church pastor called them out for whoring around. They may not demand that the church sanction their whoring officially, mainly because they're so used to everyone not saying anything about it in the first place. They think it's no big deal. If anyone actually pointed out how the Bible condemns it, they'd be like ??? Because obviously, that's different. I'm basing this on what I've personally witnessed, as well as complaints I've heard from preachers (well, I've read complaints or heard in their sermons). Whoring around with the opposite sex is one thing, but whoring around with the same sex is a whole 'nother thing! That's what some people think. It really does depend on the church, and how regular a church-goer they are. I wouldn't imagine that every church would let that kind of behavior slide. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 2:33:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Women should never be in a position of authority over adult men in a Christian church. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I don't argue with that. I'm not saying that something that is called a sin in the Bible isn't a sin. I guess I'm saying that someone who also sins (in a different way) shouldn't get super high-and-mighty and do the "but that's different" about their sin, while getting all sanctimoniously condemning about someone else's.Someone who won't acknowledge their sin and feels that there's nothing wrong is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Unrepentant practicing homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, liars, murderers, etc. should not be officers or teachers in a Church. Until such time as they can bring their own lives in compliance with God's direction, how can they help others to do the same? I'm not defending Jane Rainbow Lesbian being a pastor of a church. That's not something I want. I'm talking more about when Joe Whorealot is pointing his finger and getting all sanctimonious at Mr. Village People because homosexuality is a sin... Even though Mr. Village People isn't attending Joe Whorealot's church, nor does Mr. Village People want to be a pastor. Mr. Village People could be minding his own business and Joe Whorealot is still so shocked and condemning about Mr. Village People's sin... Yeah. Right.  Something else is fueling Joe Whorealot's indignation, but it's not because someone isn't adhering to the commandments of the Bible.
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Posted: 2/27/2019 2:44:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The scandals in the RCC, SBC, LDS and JWs regarding covered-up child sexual abuse say you're wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted:
OrQuoted:
If you're an unrepentant whoremonger, you normally get excommunicated from whatever church it is you belong to. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 2:49:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My church at the time defrocked a deacon who was leaving his wife for another woman. He did get butt-hurt and leave the church. Previous, he was a godly man. Just pointing out it does happen. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
... All I'm saying is that plenty of Joe and Jane Whorearounds would be quite butthurt if a fellow Christian or church pastor called them out for whoring around. They may not demand that the church sanction their whoring officially, mainly because they're so used to everyone not saying anything about it in the first place. They think it's no big deal. If anyone actually pointed out how the Bible condemns it, they'd be like ??? Because obviously, that's different. Still, a lot of sexual behaviors that are condemned in the Bible are overlooked today. For example, some churches wouldn't say a peep if a couple is living together before marriage. Other churches wouldn't tolerate it, but plenty would never say anything. I personally wouldn't be pointing a sanctimonious Church Lady finger at a cohabitating unmarried couple, but if people are going to be pointing fingers at others and citing Bible scripture, they'd better be prepared to have their own sins pointed out as well. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 3:03:16 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a debate on that verse, whether it was "a woman" or "that woman" referring to a specific woman in Timothy's congregation. Given "ministers" such as Phoebe, it's likely the latter. ETA: another view is that he's rejecting the teachings on gender roles within Artemis worship - IIRC there's ambiguity about "have authority" which is sometimes translated as "usurp authority". The Greek word () refers to domination, not merely having a role in churches that even men aren't to use to dominate others. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The Apostle Paul: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent" (1 Timothy 2:11-12). ETA: another view is that he's rejecting the teachings on gender roles within Artemis worship - IIRC there's ambiguity about "have authority" which is sometimes translated as "usurp authority". The Greek word () refers to domination, not merely having a role in churches that even men aren't to use to dominate others. I'm okay with "old fashioned" tradition and won't argue in favor of female clergy, though I'm sure that some women clergy members do a fine job. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 3:04:16 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Apostle Paul: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent" (1 Timothy 2:11-12). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Women should never be in a position of authority over adult men in a Christian church. Unrepentant practicing homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, liars, murderers, etc. should not be officers or teachers in a Church. Until such time as they can bring their own lives in compliance with God's direction, how can they help others to do the same? We Catholics even have a parody account for it: https://www.facebook.com/SusanFromTheParishCouncil/ |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 3:05:21 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Martin Luther wasn't English, but rather German, and he died before the Elizabethan Era began. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Please to quote me the scriptures that outline the procedures for purchasing an indulgence to get someone out of purgatory, or torturing Jews to get them to convert. Early in his monastic career, Martin Luther, rummaging through the stacks of a library, happened upon a volume of sermons by John Huss, the Bohemian who had been condemned as a heretic. "I was overwhelmed with astonishment," Luther later wrote. "I could not understand for what cause they had burnt so great a man, who explained the Scriptures with so much gravity and skill." * Buying and selling of indulgences 45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him by, yet gives his money for indulgences, does not buy papal indulgences but God's wrath. (From Luther's 95 Theses) * Blasphemy against the Savior by saying the Papal cross and colors have the same power as Christ. 79. To say that the cross emblazoned with the papal coat of arms, and set up by the indulgence preachers is equal in worth to the cross of Christ is blasphemy. * Papal, bishopric, and high clergy enrichment at the expense of the poor * Papal taxes sent to the various regions and Monarchies, when the Pope had enough personal wealth to build whatever structures he wanted to. 86. Again, "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build this one basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?'' * Permitting of monetary buy-outs for dead persons said to be in purgatory, by by impious living members as a way to gain even more money It's interesting to see the parallels between the ancient Councils and this latest UMC council on whether or not to accept official LGBTQ weddings and clergymen, in that local and regional leaders meet together to decide on key doctrines of the faith. Where is The Savior in all of this? |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 3:07:12 PM EDT
[#49]
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If you're an unrepentant whoremonger, you normally get excommunicated from whatever church it is you belong to. |
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Posted: 2/27/2019 3:10:32 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Disciples and apostles are two different things. Baptism itself is a pagan custom, you know that right? Egyptians were baptized for thousands of years before Christ. Do you know anything about the religious environment of Rome? Christianity is Essene/Pagan syncretism. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Disciples are people, not pagan customs and rituals. Please to reference the Bible where Jesus or the Apostles state to take in pagan customs in any form whatsoever, or specify the process by which they are to be "baptized" before use. Baptism itself is a pagan custom, you know that right? Egyptians were baptized for thousands of years before Christ. Do you know anything about the religious environment of Rome? Christianity is Essene/Pagan syncretism. Why should anyone be surprised when they find deviant rituals throughout mankind's history that branched from those early ordnances? After all, John the Baptist was baptizing people all over Judea before he baptized Jesus Christ. Ancient Temple ordnances were given to the Children of Israel, and their father Abraham was commanded to sacrifice unblemished animals on the altar in similitude and foreshadowing of the Savior. The idea that men deviating from Holy ordnances in ancient times somehow trumps Christ's personal Ministry on earth doesn't hold water from a basic historical analysis. |
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