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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:07:41 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except that does not change the salient fact that the truth that legal and moral are not the same thing The founders did not do an income tax. They did not do a property tax. Except for the salient fact that the Founders explicitly provided for the collection of taxes, and explicitly provided for the States, and the People, to collect taxes as well, you might have a salient point. We agree, legal and moral are not synonymous. But the Founders have a leg up on you on both counts. 
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:07:50 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As someone who fought the local school bond tax hike..I feel this man’s issues. I fought against ours, we home school and I had zero interest in a million dollar bond for sports fields in a town of less than 1,000. It passed, of course. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:09:00 PM EST
[#3]
Property taxes suck.
But Ryan Busse sucks more. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:09:42 PM EST
[#4]
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:10:10 PM EST
[#5]
Shoulda worked harder
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:12:34 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Me too. I hate the fact that I can't eat whatever I want, whenever I want, and how much I want without paying a price for my gluttony. But, I'm an adult and I recognize that reality doesn't revolve around my wants. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I hate taxes. All of them. Me too. I hate the fact that I can't eat whatever I want, whenever I want, and how much I want without paying a price for my gluttony. But, I'm an adult and I recognize that reality doesn't revolve around my wants. You for wanting what's yours, or those doing the taking? |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:13:52 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except for the salient fact that the Founders explicitly provided for the collection of taxes, and explicitly provided for the States, and the People, to collect taxes as well, you might have a salient point. We agree, legal and moral are not synonymous. But the Founders have a leg up on you on both counts. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Except that does not change the salient fact that the truth that legal and moral are not the same thing The founders did not do an income tax. They did not do a property tax. Except for the salient fact that the Founders explicitly provided for the collection of taxes, and explicitly provided for the States, and the People, to collect taxes as well, you might have a salient point. We agree, legal and moral are not synonymous. But the Founders have a leg up on you on both counts. Don’t know why you are going personal. Legal and moral are not synonymous. Fact. The founders made neither a property nor income tax. Fact. In fact the Constitution had to be amended to allow an income tax in 1913 (16th amendment) .Fact. Seems that you disagree with the founders |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:16:22 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's not wrong Mine went up another 33% this year Elder abuse  Im suprised this could happen in Montana, Im Sadly not suprised the leftists in The We Violate the Constitution State are doing that to you .... |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:20:45 PM EST
[#9]
Does Montucky have any exception applications for the old timer to get his property tax assessment reduced?
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:22:44 PM EST
[#10]
Long term high tax rates and here in Florida...insane insurance costs will effect housing sales and valuations.
Prices WILL fall to reflect the increase in monthly costs for those items. People have a finite number of dollars to spend and if taxes and insurance increase, unless wages massively rise to compensate, house prices will come down. It won't happen overnight but in the next 5-10 years ???? There is a reason real estate isn't considered a liquid asset (yes,I own commercial properties). People that are stuck in a rising tax/insurance area with a high house payment are just kinda fucked. BTW...I do make fun of my liberal neighbors who bitch about taxes and insurance. Most never saw a bond issue they didn't like and then bitch about the cost. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:25:13 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: meaningless without knowing the assessment value of your property. Is it $100K or $1 million? Or ? $462k |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:30:35 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Taxation is theft. So freeloader, when are you leaving the country? |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:35:47 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As someone who fought the local school bond tax hike..I feel this man’s issues. I agree it is insane but where is the money going? I can't imagine voters stupid enough to vote for this. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:38:29 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Taxation is theft. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:39:57 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except that does not change the salient fact that the truth that legal and moral are not the same thing The founders did not do an income tax. They did not do a property tax. If I remember history class correctly, property taxes were one of the factors leading to Shays Rebellion. Regardless, I agree legal and moral are separate things, a concept which should be obvious to any moral person. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:43:24 PM EST
[#16]
In California, the Teachers' Union and others were marshaling their forces trying to overturn Prop. 13. They wanted the State to have more money for their salaries.
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:45:45 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don’t know why you are going personal. Legal and moral are not synonymous. Fact. The founders made neither a property nor income tax. Fact. In fact the Constitution had to be amended to allow an income tax in 1913 (16th amendment) .Fact. Seems that you disagree with the founders I agree 100% with the Founders. They provided for an amendment process. The USC has been amended many times. The Founders also provided for the collection of taxes. Now you're backpedaling, and it's obvious. The statement you're defending is "All taxes are theft." They aren't, and I proved it using the precise words of the Constitution. Now, you may not like some taxes, and neither do I. But they are legal, and they aren't theft. That's the "salient" point. You, and I, have relief against taxes we don't like. Vote the bastards out. CA, in its wisdom nearly 50 years ago, passed Prop 13 to limit increases in prop tax. Other states have that available to them as well. I suggest they take full advantage of it. It's somewhat of a mystery to me that California is 187% better on prop taxes than Texas. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:47:41 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I remember history class correctly, property taxes were one of the factors leading to Shays Rebellion. Regardless, I agree legal and moral are separate things, a concept which should be obvious to any moral person. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Except that does not change the salient fact that the truth that legal and moral are not the same thing The founders did not do an income tax. They did not do a property tax. If I remember history class correctly, property taxes were one of the factors leading to Shays Rebellion. Regardless, I agree legal and moral are separate things, a concept which should be obvious to any moral person. A rebellion started by a revolutionary war hero against corrupt local fiscal and judicial practices? Seems to me that this example supports rather that refutes my point. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:48:09 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In California, the Teachers' Union and others were marshaling their forces trying to overturn Prop. 13. They wanted the State to have more money for their salaries. Yes, there is a push to overturn Prop 13. They may be successful, or not. The fact that it hasn't been successful, yet, is proof of the fear that the veto-proof Dem legislature has of the backlash they would see if they did it. That's a good thing. I want govt to fear the people, not vice versa. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:49:50 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree 100% with the Founders. They provided for an amendment process. The USC has been amended many times. The Founders also provided for the collection of taxes. Now you're backpedaling, and it's obvious. The statement you're defending is "All taxes are theft." They aren't, and I proved it using the precise words of the Constitution. Now, you may not like some taxes, and neither do I. But they are legal, and they aren't theft. That's the "salient" point. You, and I, have relief against taxes we don't like. Vote the bastards out. CA, in its wisdom nearly 50 years ago, passed Prop 13 to limit increases in prop tax. Other states have that available to them as well. I suggest they take full advantage of it. It's somewhat of a mystery to me that California is 187% better on prop taxes than Texas. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Don’t know why you are going personal. Legal and moral are not synonymous. Fact. The founders made neither a property nor income tax. Fact. In fact the Constitution had to be amended to allow an income tax in 1913 (16th amendment) .Fact. Seems that you disagree with the founders I agree 100% with the Founders. They provided for an amendment process. The USC has been amended many times. The Founders also provided for the collection of taxes. Now you're backpedaling, and it's obvious. The statement you're defending is "All taxes are theft." They aren't, and I proved it using the precise words of the Constitution. Now, you may not like some taxes, and neither do I. But they are legal, and they aren't theft. That's the "salient" point. You, and I, have relief against taxes we don't like. Vote the bastards out. CA, in its wisdom nearly 50 years ago, passed Prop 13 to limit increases in prop tax. Other states have that available to them as well. I suggest they take full advantage of it. It's somewhat of a mystery to me that California is 187% better on prop taxes than Texas. I’m not backpedal anything. I never said anything about taxes being theft. I simply pointed out that legal and moral are not synonymous. Don’t read into things that are not present. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 5:54:11 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not backpedal anything. I never said anything about taxes being theft. I simply pointed out that legal and moral are not synonymous. Don’t read into things that are not present. You defended the statement that "all taxes are theft" based on the fact that legal and moral are not synonymous. I refuted it. We agree, legal and moral are not synonymous. IIRC I stated that before you did. I prefer clarity over agreement. So, let me ask you directly - Are taxes theft? Yes or no. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:00:20 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You defended the statement that "all taxes are theft" based on the fact that legal and moral are not synonymous. I refuted it. We agree, legal and moral are not synonymous. IIRC I stated that before you did. I prefer clarity over agreement. So, let me ask you directly - Are taxes theft? Yes or no. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’m not backpedal anything. I never said anything about taxes being theft. I simply pointed out that legal and moral are not synonymous. Don’t read into things that are not present. You defended the statement that "all taxes are theft" based on the fact that legal and moral are not synonymous. I refuted it. We agree, legal and moral are not synonymous. IIRC I stated that before you did. I prefer clarity over agreement. So, let me ask you directly - Are taxes theft? Yes or no. Obviously not all —and I emphasize all—taxes are theft. However, my only point in the beginning of this exchange was to point out that legal is not necessarily moral and that the founders did not create a property nor an income tax. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:01:02 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They fund a Highway Patrol force large enough to invade and occupy Europe. Those patrolmen then park along each and every mile marker so they can cite you for going 66 in a 65 zone. they are fucking everywhere. literally. every corner waiting to write a ticket for anything. 
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:03:01 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Government at all levels has become imperious and unrestrained. They govern by force, threat and intimidation. We were warned. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why have the property taxes gone up that much? Government at all levels has become imperious and unrestrained. They govern by force, threat and intimidation. We were warned. Yep. The government instills fear in the people, and the people think they 'buy' safety through taxes. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:11:04 PM EST
[#25]
They will tax the larger 2 to 5 acre lot neighborhood I live in out of existence where I am maybe even before I die the way it is going. Government want density to maximize dollars per area.
Funny some years back when property values decreased and I filled a tax appeal using area comparable properties they told me I couldn't use the ones selling for less than the old value and denied that portion. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:11:06 PM EST
[#26]
Montana is in need of serious tax reform. In some counties the property tax is low. However, in Madison County, which is loaded in High-end vacation homes, it can skyrocket to over $15,000. There is no state sales tax. For Kurt, dude, you didn't plan your retirement very well.
When I retired I sold my home and 4.7 acres in MI for a 241-acre ranch in Arkansas. The house was the same size but the amount I paid in property taxes is less in Arkansas. The trade-off is MI has a sales tax of 6% and income tax. Arkansas has a sales tax of 9% but no income tax. The current gas price in MI is $3.56. In Arkansas, I paid $3.03 yesterday. The best part of the move is no more shoveling snow. Thank god too, my driveway is .8 of a mile long. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:11:47 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why have the property taxes gone up that much? Part of the whole .gov grift. 
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:13:24 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Montana is in need of serious tax reform. In some counties the property tax is low. However, in Madison County, which is loaded in High-end vacation homes, it can skyrocket to over $15,000. There is no state sales tax. For Kurt, dude, you didn't plan your retirement very well. When I retired I sold my home and 4.7 acres in MI for a 241-acre ranch in Arkansas. The house was the same size but the amount I paid in property taxes is less in Arkansas. The trade-off is MI has a sales tax of 6% and income tax. Arkansas has a sales tax of 9% but no income tax. The current gas price in MI is $3.56. In Arkansas, I paid $3.03 yesterday. The best part of the move is no more shoveling snow. Thank god too, my driveway is .8 of a mile long. Prop 13 is always the answer. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:14:25 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obviously not all —and I emphasize all—taxes are theft. However, my only point in the beginning of this exchange was to point out that legal is not necessarily moral and that the founders did not create a property nor an income tax. We agree. They left it up to the States, and the People. We have remedy, if we choose to use it. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:16:26 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They will tax the larger 2 to 5 acre lot neighborhood I live in out of existence where I am maybe even before I die the way it is going. Government want density to maximize dollars per area. Funny some years back when property values decreased and I filled a tax appeal using area comparable properties they told me I couldn't use the ones selling for less than the old value and denied that portion. I fought the tax man a few years ago too. They had me listed with more beds/baths than I (technically) have. Forced them to cut the numbers based on NFPA and local building codes. Didn't make a huge dent that first year but in the following years of tax hikes it has saved me a bundle. Everyone should fight the tax man on occasion. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:17:14 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Taxation is theft. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:18:19 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We agree. They left it up to the States, and the People. We have remedy, if we choose to use it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Obviously not all —and I emphasize all—taxes are theft. However, my only point in the beginning of this exchange was to point out that legal is not necessarily moral and that the founders did not create a property nor an income tax. We agree. They left it up to the States, and the People. We have remedy, if we choose to use it. Fair enough. And I agree , we have a solution if we choose to use it. Like my example pages ago—some lady was both bitching about having to pay a massive property tax while at the same time stating that she voted for every milliage, every school increase, every new park , etc. stop voting for handouts and you won’t have to bitch about high taxes. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:18:57 PM EST
[#33]
'There's Plenty of Money, It's Just the Government Doesn't Have It'
F Keith Ellison former congresscritter from Minnesota |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:19:33 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Welcome to Washington. Many of our neighbors near Seattle couldn't afford to live in the houses they owned. I guess you get what you vote for. Some states don't like retires. They tax the crap out of them to get them to move. The state assumes the person buying the property can afford to pay higher taxes. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:20:07 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I fought the tax man a few years ago too. They had me listed with more beds/baths than I (technically) have. Forced them to cut the numbers based on NFPA and local building codes. Didn't make a huge dent that first year but in the following years of tax hikes it has saved me a bundle. Everyone should fight the tax man on occasion. I did. My California properties went down in market value during several RE downturns. I filled out the forms, got several "comps", and submitted the paperwork to the County. They lowered my prop taxes for several years until the market turned up again. IDK how other states handle that. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:20:54 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fair enough. And I agree , we have a solution if we choose to use it. Like my example pages ago—some lady was both bitching about having to pay a massive property tax while at the same time stating that she voted for every milliage, every school increase, every new park , etc. stop voting for handouts and you won’t have to bitch about high taxes. Well, she got what she asked for - good and hard! |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:22:07 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, she got what she asked for - good and hard! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fair enough. And I agree , we have a solution if we choose to use it. Like my example pages ago—some lady was both bitching about having to pay a massive property tax while at the same time stating that she voted for every milliage, every school increase, every new park , etc. stop voting for handouts and you won’t have to bitch about high taxes. Well, she got what she asked for - good and hard! But did she learn the lesson? I kinda doubt it. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:23:29 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But did she learn the lesson? I kinda doubt it. Well, some people never learn. 
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:24:30 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s my point. It’s mentioned quite often here that CA transplants in particular are always bringing their politics with them wherever they return to. This may be the one thing CA got right. Example. My grandfather bought his place on 5 acres around 1980 for 250k. Shortly after purchased bordering 10 acres for another 60k. It’s currently assessed at 450k and has a $4500 tax bill. My cousin listed it for 4.1 million. That would be a $41,000 annual property tax bill if not for prop 13 which would drive most out. One thing right in almost 50 years isn't really something to brag about. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:26:06 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One thing right in almost 50 years isn't really something to brag about. That was a different California, 50 years ago. Did you know that Ronald Reagan was a popular two-time governor of California? True story!! |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:26:45 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my former county in Georgia the Republicans ran a school bond on the ballot 3 times until it won by a couple of hundred votes. Government loves taxes. Ya think they would have gotten re-elected if they closed the schools? My god, parents would have had to educate their kids. What a novel concept. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:27:48 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everyone should fight the tax man on occasion. Every two years. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:31:04 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I fought the tax man a few years ago too. They had me listed with more beds/baths than I (technically) have. Forced them to cut the numbers based on NFPA and local building codes. Didn't make a huge dent that first year but in the following years of tax hikes it has saved me a bundle. Everyone should fight the tax man on occasion.  Taxman (Remastered 2009) |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:36:33 PM EST
[#44]
MANY years ago I bought my Grandmother's property from her estate. Just a couple of lots in a ghost town in the middle of nowhere Montana. The property taxes were almost noting, but there was nothing of value either.
In 2023 the tax value jumped by 34% after many jumps for years. We paid split taxes this year and when we got the second half tax notice there was a nice notice that the Montana Supreme Court said counties could collect MORE in taxes than they needed to and could put the extra cash in the bank. Mid-year our taxes on "almost nothing of value" jumped again. The biggest part of our tax bill goes to schools. I checked with a real-estate company about selling the property and he declined the sale. The property isn't worth enough to cover his expenses. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:42:24 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was a different California, 50 years ago. Did you know that Ronald Reagan was a popular two-time governor of California? True story!! He didn’t happen to say something to the effect of “There is absolutely no reason why out on the street today a civilian should be carrying a loaded weapon”, not that Ronald Reagan right? |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:47:28 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are a chick magnet, sir! What woman could resist the charms of a 30'x10' one room hovel! Does it have a dirt floor? Quote HistoryQuoted: You are a chick magnet, sir! What woman could resist the charms of a 30'x10' one room hovel! Does it have a dirt floor? Quoted: You are a chick magnet, sir! What woman could resist the charms of a 30'x10' one room hovel! Does it have a dirt floor? Meh, for what he is saving they can fuck in four star hotels or at her place. CO habituating with women your are not married to and have no plans to marry is for the birds. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:52:36 PM EST
[#47]
I am pretty shocked here at the taxes in other states that I am seeing in this thread. Taxation is theft. I dont understand why I have to pay tax on property and everything I buy in in addtion to the income tax.
Here in the Peoples Republic of New Jersey high taxes have always been the norm. I pay 11K on a 1 acre lot with 2000 sq foot house. But we have a cap that that they cant be raised more than 2% in a given year. The Democrats want to do away with the cap of course. My Dads house is a little smaller and the lot is only 50 feet x 200 feet and its still 11K as well. Just like all of you are saying the bulk of our money goes to the school system - "its for the children!". NJ has always had expensive schools but the reality is that all that money that is being shoveled into the schools is not going to guarantee that the youngins will have great careers in the future. Not with all the offshoring and outsourcing that is going on. Your fancy degree wont be worth jack shit in the future. Here in the People's Republic we also have income tax as well as 6% sales tax on most everything except for clothes and food. We dont have those crazy taxes on cars. Bottomline is someone has to pay for all the illegals. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 6:52:43 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Taxation is theft. And a "death tax" what the fuck is that about. It's like punishing the surviving family members. Stupid AF. |
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Posted: 5/18/2024 7:37:44 PM EST
[#49]
No property tax, or sales tax on 4400 square miles of tribal land. The commutes a bitch though.
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Posted: 5/18/2024 7:42:56 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good for you. This story reminds me of a previous story from a few years ago. Anyone remember it please correct me if I get it wrong. APparently there was this retired lady living in Austin who was bitching in the news about not being able to stay on her house of 30 years because she was retired, on a fixed income, and the taxes had gotten so high she couldn't to afford her own, paid for home. I had sympathy for her initially but then as you read the article she went on and on about being a "good citizen " of Austin who supported her town by voting for every milliage, every new park, every new (fill in the cause here) and then was upset that she was being taxed out of her own home. The incredible lack of insight this woman had--she could not connect all of her voting for gimmies to the increase in her property tax. Quote HistoryQuoted: Good for you. This story reminds me of a previous story from a few years ago. Anyone remember it please correct me if I get it wrong. APparently there was this retired lady living in Austin who was bitching in the news about not being able to stay on her house of 30 years because she was retired, on a fixed income, and the taxes had gotten so high she couldn't to afford her own, paid for home. I had sympathy for her initially but then as you read the article she went on and on about being a "good citizen " of Austin who supported her town by voting for every milliage, every new park, every new (fill in the cause here) and then was upset that she was being taxed out of her own home. The incredible lack of insight this woman had--she could not connect all of her voting for gimmies to the increase in her property tax. We have that exact same problem here. Education is a god to many. Far too many. A false god. My annual property tax for a 450k house is 10k. 8-9k goes to the schools. The rest is split up between county and city taxes. I don't use the schools. I won't. They don't teach what I believe in and taxing parents who don't use them is un-American. We now have the 2nd highest school taxes in the region and the local water utilities district is asking for a rate raise. People are outraged. I asked them where was their outrage when the school district passed a nearly 200 million dollar bond. Hypocrites. Quoted: Except that does not change the salient fact that the truth that legal and moral are not the same thing The founders did not do an income tax. They did not do a property tax. Income tax had to be "added" 150 years later  Quoted: But isn’t a free and prosperous Ukraine worth it? What kind of American are you anyway? How much money in school and property taxes do you pay to Ukraine? 
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