[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My "new" tricked out Remington 700 (Page 5 of 8)
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II assume not... I have never seen that gun at the range telling me that Terrorist Rifles should be banned. OP, take that thing out to distance... I have seen many 1 MOA rifles shoot half that past 300 yards.... Some bullets do not shoot as well at 100 as they do when they go to "sleep" at distance. Physics doesn't change with distance until you get to quantum scales. When you see better groups at 500yds than 100yds as measured in MOA, you're not seeing the shooter do a better job, not the rifle. Yeah, I always love when people say things like that. As if the bullets, after having been off trajectory at 100 somehow magically get back on trajectory further out. Gyroscopic precession. They're not "off trajectory," they're describing a coning motion about their center of gravity after exiting the barrel, like was said. Read more, especially books about ballistics and maybe even talk to some shooters once in awhile. |
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II assume not... I have never seen that gun at the range telling me that Terrorist Rifles should be banned. OP, take that thing out to distance... I have seen many 1 MOA rifles shoot half that past 300 yards.... Some bullets do not shoot as well at 100 as they do when they go to "sleep" at distance. Physics doesn't change with distance until you get to quantum scales. When you see better groups at 500yds than 100yds as measured in MOA, you're not seeing the shooter do a better job, not the rifle. Yeah, I always love when people say things like that. As if the bullets, after having been off trajectory at 100 somehow magically get back on trajectory further out. Gyroscopic precession. They're not "off trajectory," they're describing a coning motion about their center of gravity after exiting the barrel, like was said. Read more, especially books about ballistics and maybe even talk to some shooters once in awhile. I wish I could go back to when I knew everything. Life was a lot more simple, then. |
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OP i think its a sweet stick man. some practice and load development and maybe some marksmanship work those will be close to touching.. Quoted: nice looking gun - keep shooting the groups should get a little smaller why a muzzle break...... 308's not a kicker and everyone on the line is going to hate you i was thinking the same thing. remove the break and put on a nice target crown will make all the difference, and possible increase your consistency. especially when loads are being worked. My groups didn't change one bit after I installed pws prc brake on my .308 bolt gun. It's a lot louder but easier to get back on target. And I don't give a shit about other people on the line next to me. Most people at the range are rude and inconsiderate anyway. that really really sucks. srsly. met some of the coolest dudes at the range, havnt had a bad experience with civilians, the cops on the other hand ,, well thats for a different thread. my grouping exercises showed improvement when i lost the brake and went the a crown (that i made) .. I'm not sure you know what a "crown" is. |
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No offense OP but you got raped. You have a stock 700 with a bunch of farkles on it. This is a 5 shot group at 100 yards. The object next to it is a dime. This is what you should be seeing out of a $3000 rifle. http://www.extremefirepower.com/images/rstarget.jpg My recommendation is to send it to a good builder and have them true the action, put a Kreiger barrel on it chambered with a "175 Match" reamer at a thousandth over minimum. Cut the barrel to 24 inches and put all the crap back on. Is the stock bedded or did your buddy just slap it on? So you shot that group 5 years ago? Nice! Nice gun OP, reload and practice. I am looking into a .308 also! What about a nice target crown on the muzzle rather than a comp or brake? you are assuming that there isn't one under the brake.......... where do you guys get your material from anyways? 
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No offense OP but you got raped. You have a stock 700 with a bunch of farkles on it. This is a 5 shot group at 100 yards. The object next to it is a dime. This is what you should be seeing out of a $3000 rifle. http://www.extremefirepower.com/images/rstarget.jpg My recommendation is to send it to a good builder and have them true the action, put a Kreiger barrel on it chambered with a "175 Match" reamer at a thousandth over minimum. Cut the barrel to 24 inches and put all the crap back on. Is the stock bedded or did your buddy just slap it on? So you shot that group 5 years ago? Nice! Nice gun OP, reload and practice. I am looking into a .308 also! What about a nice target crown on the muzzle rather than a comp or brake? you are assuming that there isn't one under the brake.......... where do you guys get your material from anyways?
Do you understand what the crown is? |
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II assume not... I have never seen that gun at the range telling me that Terrorist Rifles should be banned. OP, take that thing out to distance... I have seen many 1 MOA rifles shoot half that past 300 yards.... Some bullets do not shoot as well at 100 as they do when they go to "sleep" at distance. Physics doesn't change with distance until you get to quantum scales. When you see better groups at 500yds than 100yds as measured in MOA, you're not seeing the shooter do a better job, not the rifle. SKG is correct. The physics is not changing. As the bullet travels down the bbl, the center of gravity is forced to go round the center of axis. As the bullet exits teh bbl, it starts trying to correct that making the COG the axis. This creates a wobble. Depending on the bullets, load and rifle, it can take further than 100 yards for the bullet to "settle down". I'm still not buying it. If the bullet starts wobbling, it is going to present a different cross-section into the wind and have a very different BC than calculated. While the bullet is wobbling, it's slowing down faster because of the lower BC. That's fine if the bullet "wobbles" the same way on every shot, but that's not likely to be the case since, if you can make it wobble the same every time, why not just make it not wobble in the first place? Even if everything else remains constant except the "wobble" between 0-100yd, the fluctuation in velocity alone is going to string shots vertically and it's only going to get worse the further out you go. That's why I call shenanigans. |
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II assume not... I have never seen that gun at the range telling me that Terrorist Rifles should be banned. OP, take that thing out to distance... I have seen many 1 MOA rifles shoot half that past 300 yards.... Some bullets do not shoot as well at 100 as they do when they go to "sleep" at distance. Physics doesn't change with distance until you get to quantum scales. When you see better groups at 500yds than 100yds as measured in MOA, you're not seeing the shooter do a better job, not the rifle. SKG is correct. The physics is not changing. As the bullet travels down the bbl, the center of gravity is forced to go round the center of axis. As the bullet exits teh bbl, it starts trying to correct that making the COG the axis. This creates a wobble. Depending on the bullets, load and rifle, it can take further than 100 yards for the bullet to "settle down". I'm still not buying it. If the bullet starts wobbling, it is going to present a different cross-section into the wind and have a very different BC than calculated. While the bullet is wobbling, it's slowing down faster because of the lower BC. That's fine if the bullet "wobbles" the same way on every shot, but that's not likely to be the case since, if you can make it wobble the same every time, why not just make it not wobble in the first place? Even if everything else remains constant except the "wobble" between 0-100yd, the fluctuation in velocity alone is going to string shots vertically and it's only going to get worse the further out you go. That's why I call shenanigans. The way it was explained to me, is that its not a huge amount of wobble, its just a little bit and it happens pretty much the same way every time. The thing is that it decreases over distance...as opposed to the inherent accuracy of the gun which increases with distance, at some point the amount of whobble becomes statistically insignificant in comparison to the group size. At 100 yards a 1/4" of whobble can be the difference between a 1/2" group (which earns scorn and disgrace) or a 1/4" group (which most people here shoot). But at 600 yards that wobble has stabilized down to 1/8" and now its a 1 1/2" vs 1 5/8" group size. Different bullets with different rates of spin at different velocity in different air density/temp wobble different amounts. Boat tail bullets supposedly wobble more that flat base. Even if the amount of wobble did not decrease, if its a 1/2" at 100 yards...it's still 1/2" at 1000 yards, but at 1000 yards other variables affect the impact more that 1/2" so it's insignificant at that distance. |
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II assume not... I have never seen that gun at the range telling me that Terrorist Rifles should be banned. OP, take that thing out to distance... I have seen many 1 MOA rifles shoot half that past 300 yards.... Some bullets do not shoot as well at 100 as they do when they go to "sleep" at distance. Physics doesn't change with distance until you get to quantum scales. When you see better groups at 500yds than 100yds as measured in MOA, you're not seeing the shooter do a better job, not the rifle. SKG is correct. The physics is not changing. As the bullet travels down the bbl, the center of gravity is forced to go round the center of axis. As the bullet exits teh bbl, it starts trying to correct that making the COG the axis. This creates a wobble. Depending on the bullets, load and rifle, it can take further than 100 yards for the bullet to "settle down". I'm still not buying it. If the bullet starts wobbling, it is going to present a different cross-section into the wind and have a very different BC than calculated. While the bullet is wobbling, it's slowing down faster because of the lower BC. That's fine if the bullet "wobbles" the same way on every shot, but that's not likely to be the case since, if you can make it wobble the same every time, why not just make it not wobble in the first place? Even if everything else remains constant except the "wobble" between 0-100yd, the fluctuation in velocity alone is going to string shots vertically and it's only going to get worse the further out you go. That's why I call shenanigans. You can call shenanigans but you are still wrong. There are just some things that are hard to wrap your head around until you experience them, or someone more knowledgeable than yourself presents their theory on a subject. Not to be abrasive, but there are people who depend on this stuff is to do things many of us will only read about in books, and this is a known factor in long range shooting. |
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It sure is on the internet, mister!
A half inch group at 100 yards isn't anything to sneer at. That to me is indicative of adequate accuracy from the rifle itself as well as adequate marksmanship by the shooter. Sure, there are great shooters out there who can do much better. But in reality, those who can do so are probably relatively few in number. For someone that isn't a trained sniper or experienced competition shooter, that is an excellent group. And any rifle/user combo that can shoot half inch size groups at 100 yards can most certainly pose a lethal threat against man size targets out to 700 or even 800 yards. So while the op may not possess Carlos Hathcock type skills, for an average rifleman (which most of us are), I'd say that's pretty good shooting. |
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I'm still not buying it. If the bullet starts wobbling, it is going to present a different cross-section into the wind and have a very different BC than calculated. While the bullet is wobbling, it's slowing down faster because of the lower BC. That's fine if the bullet "wobbles" the same way on every shot, but that's not likely to be the case since, if you can make it wobble the same every time, why not just make it not wobble in the first place? Even if everything else remains constant except the "wobble" between 0-100yd, the fluctuation in velocity alone is going to string shots vertically and it's only going to get worse the further out you go. That's why I call shenanigans. You don't have to buy it cause I ain't sellin' it. It's a demonstrable phenomenon. You may choose to ignore facts all you wish, I don't care. This thread has certainly demonstrated one thing. There are those of us who know a little about rifles and ballistics and those who think they do. I would encourage those interested to get some good books on the subject and shoot matches to associate with guys who know the ins and outs of rifle shooting. |
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II assume not... I have never seen that gun at the range telling me that Terrorist Rifles should be banned. OP, take that thing out to distance... I have seen many 1 MOA rifles shoot half that past 300 yards.... Some bullets do not shoot as well at 100 as they do when they go to "sleep" at distance. Physics doesn't change with distance until you get to quantum scales. When you see better groups at 500yds than 100yds as measured in MOA, you're not seeing the shooter do a better job, not the rifle. SKG is correct. The physics is not changing. As the bullet travels down the bbl, the center of gravity is forced to go round the center of axis. As the bullet exits teh bbl, it starts trying to correct that making the COG the axis. This creates a wobble. Depending on the bullets, load and rifle, it can take further than 100 yards for the bullet to "settle down". I'm still not buying it. If the bullet starts wobbling, it is going to present a different cross-section into the wind and have a very different BC than calculated. While the bullet is wobbling, it's slowing down faster because of the lower BC. That's fine if the bullet "wobbles" the same way on every shot, but that's not likely to be the case since, if you can make it wobble the same every time, why not just make it not wobble in the first place? Even if everything else remains constant except the "wobble" between 0-100yd, the fluctuation in velocity alone is going to string shots vertically and it's only going to get worse the further out you go. That's why I call shenanigans. Why not Google it? It's a well known discussion. Do some reading on it. HERE: https://www.google.com/search?q=bullets+go+to+sleep&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a |
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Why not Google it? It's a well known discussion. Do some reading on it. HERE: https://www.google.com/search?q=bullets+go+to+sleep&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a I have known of this phenomena for a long time. Explained to me by an friend many years ago that was a Palma Team member. When conditions are perfect you can witness it in the contrails of the bullets. Until now, when I followed your link I had not read a scientific explanation. This one is very good: http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/bullet-pitch-yaw-1.php |
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Why not Google it? It's a well known discussion. Do some reading on it. HERE: https://www.google.com/search?q=bullets+go+to+sleep&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a I have known of this phenomena for a long time. Explained to me by an friend many years ago that was a Palma Team member. When conditions are perfect you can witness it in the contrails of the bullets. Until now, when I followed your link I had not read a scientific explanation. This one is very good: http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/bullet-pitch-yaw-1.php Watching trace is something else, I tell you what. |
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II assume not... I have never seen that gun at the range telling me that Terrorist Rifles should be banned. OP, take that thing out to distance... I have seen many 1 MOA rifles shoot half that past 300 yards.... Some bullets do not shoot as well at 100 as they do when they go to "sleep" at distance. Physics doesn't change with distance until you get to quantum scales. When you see better groups at 500yds than 100yds as measured in MOA, you're not seeing the shooter do a better job, not the rifle. Yeah, I always love when people say things like that. As if the bullets, after having been off trajectory at 100 somehow magically get back on trajectory further out. Gyroscopic precession. They're not "off trajectory," they're describing a coning motion about their center of gravity after exiting the barrel, like was said. Read more, especially books about ballistics and maybe even talk to some shooters once in awhile. I understand about bullets stabilizing as it goes down range. That's completely different than "groups tightening up" as it goes down range. There's only one ideal trajectory and that's the one that intersects with your optics LOS at the target. Once the flight of the bullet strays from that ideal trajectory, barring any external forces like wind, it's only going to further diverge from that ideal the further out if goes. Nothing in the physics of exterior ballistics is going to "pull it back" on target. I've read plenty, thanks, and talked to enough shooters to know they normally have no idea wtf they're talking about when it comes to ballistics. |
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A 2" group at 400 yards is "tighter" than a 2" group at 100 yards, which is what is commonly seen with the G7 shaped bullets. This. Your 100 yard performance of a specific load is not indicative of how it will perform at 300, 600, or 1000...as measured in MOA. The groups physical size is larger at the extended ranges but they can tighten up in terms of MOA measurement. |
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Haha. Not a bad group OP. You have some room to improve, but don't pay too much attention to the guys dogging you. People are way better shooters on the internet.
Where were all you <.5 MOA guys during the ARFCOM 1 MOA All-Day challenge thread that was up for months and months? ARFCOM MOA ALL DAY CHALLENGE |
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[ I understand about bullets stabilizing as it goes down range. That's completely different than "groups tightening up" as it goes down range. There's only one ideal trajectory and that's the one that intersects with your optics LOS at the target. Once the flight of the bullet strays from that ideal trajectory, barring any external forces like wind, it's only going to further diverge from that ideal the further out if goes. Nothing in the physics of exterior ballistics is going to "pull it back" on target. I've read plenty, thanks, and talked to enough shooters to know they normally have no idea wtf they're talking about when it comes to ballistics. Just because I got nothing better to do while sitting here digesting the biscuits, gravy, sausage, eggs and cheesy grits that I made for my lovely wife on mother's day: Picture the bullet describing a (arbitrary) .25"r circle, perpendicular to the axis of flight as it transverses its trajectory. If the trajectory were within .1 moa from shot to shot, the best group at 100 yards is about .6 inches. The same bullet with the same deviation in trajectory (.1moa) will group at about .7 inches at 200 yards, assuming that the gyroscopic precession (the circle the bullet is describing) has not lessened by then. So, in effect, we see a .6 moa group at 100 yards, and a .35 moa group at 200 yards. (all figures approximate for simplicity instead of using the actual moa inch measurement) The group is not "tightening up". It is the ratio of the circle the bullet is "wobbling" in to the deviation in trajectory getting less as the range increases. Add to this that the "wobble" of the bullet generally decreases as it stabilizes, down range. |
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Some rounds need a bit of distance to "settle down" to use the term.
To use a .308 AP round load I was testing as an example: It would penetrate a certain thickness of tree or steel plate at 25-50yds, but would actually penetrate more at 100-150, because the bullet was more stable at the longer range. |
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Some rounds need a bit of distance to "settle down" to use the term. To use a .308 AP round load I was testing as an example: It would penetrate a certain thickness of tree or steel plate at 25-50yds, but would actually penetrate more at 100-150, because the bullet was more stable at the longer range. Well, that's a little different. The further distance allows the bullet to get up to full speed so it penetrates better. |
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Some rounds need a bit of distance to "settle down" to use the term. To use a .308 AP round load I was testing as an example: It would penetrate a certain thickness of tree or steel plate at 25-50yds, but would actually penetrate more at 100-150, because the bullet was more stable at the longer range. Well, that's a little different. The further distance allows the bullet to get up to full speed so it penetrates better. 
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Haha. Not a bad group OP. You have some room to improve, but don't pay too much attention to the guys dogging you. People are way better shooters on the internet. Where were all you <.5 MOA guys during the ARFCOM 1 MOA All-Day challenge thread that was up for months and months? ARFCOM MOA ALL DAY CHALLENGE I had missed that post, but it is very interesting. My old buddy Tman, used to see folks post, "I have an AR-15 that will shoot milsurp ammo into an inch all day long". He often told me, "I wish I could send them this invitation: "I will meet you at the Golden Triangle Gun Club. I will bring $1,000. You do the same. If you can sit down and shoot 5, 1-MOA groups in a row with your set-up, you get the $1,000. If you can't, I get your money." He doubted he would ever get a challenger. 
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I just read the first few replies and had to laugh/puke at all the fucking 12ers and 13ers permeating this thread and GD stinking up the place with their nastiness. This place needs a good housecleaning. Make me a mod for a week. PS - OP, nice rifle, enjoy! They may make up the majority of ignorant posts (ignorant is not a derogatory term) but there were plenty of folks who've more than a few years here, who have  posts, too.
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No offense OP but you got raped. You have a stock 700 with a bunch of farkles on it. This is a 5 shot group at 100 yards. The object next to it is a dime. This is what you should be seeing out of a $3000 rifle. http://www.extremefirepower.com/images/rstarget.jpg My recommendation is to send it to a good builder and have them true the action, put a Kreiger barrel on it chambered with a "175 Match" reamer at a thousandth over minimum. Cut the barrel to 24 inches and put all the crap back on. Is the stock bedded or did your buddy just slap it on? So you shot that group 5 years ago? Nice! Nice gun OP, reload and practice. I am looking into a .308 also! What about a nice target crown on the muzzle rather than a comp or brake? you are assuming that there isn't one under the brake.......... where do you guys get your material from anyways?
Do you understand what the crown is? Do you understand that you can have a target crown under a brake?
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That three shot group at 100 yards off a bench should be an enlarged ragged hole, not three separate holes. Why? Because I have a rifle that did that. Once.
I've had the opportunity to see claims be put to the test. Nothing like seeing a "half-minute" rifle shoot two minutes...all day. 
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Some rounds need a bit of distance to "settle down" to use the term. To use a .308 AP round load I was testing as an example: It would penetrate a certain thickness of tree or steel plate at 25-50yds, but would actually penetrate more at 100-150, because the bullet was more stable at the longer range. Well, that's a little different. The further distance allows the bullet to get up to full speed so it penetrates better. What did I just read? 
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My A Bolt .270 with a 4x Sporter scope does 3 shot ragged hole at 100. All the time, right? Here's a zero confirmation I shot with my pet load in 6.5 Creedmoor, three rounds before confirming data. 
Here's a shot at 756 yards to confirm elevation dope. The wind was switching up quite a bit at 10-12 mph. All targets are 1/3 IPSC in size. 
And a cold bore shot at 600 yards. 
Elevation at 547 yards. 
Another check at 500 yards. 
Some 5-round groups I shot the first day I took it to the range. Each group was a different load, so there's some variation, and it was so windy that I had to shore up the target against a berm and set up on a bipod between the benches to get a steady sight picture. And yes, the groups do "tighten up" beyond 100 yards. 
Plenty of people have an idea what goes into achieving this kind of thing, regardless of barrel temperature and almost without respect to the load being used. Putting three in a clover leaf at some point isn't a qualifier. |
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My A Bolt .270 with a 4x Sporter scope does 3 shot ragged hole at 100. All the time, right? Here's a zero confirmation I shot with my pet load in 6.5 Creedmoor, three rounds before confirming data. http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/65-3rds_zpsc2118b7d.jpg Here's a shot at 756 yards to confirm elevation dope. The wind was switching up quite a bit at 10-12 mph. All targets are 1/3 IPSC in size. http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/657561024x768_zps250ce0e0.jpg And a cold bore shot at 600 yards. http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/65cold6001024x768_zpsadbdc31f.jpg Elevation at 547 yards. http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/655471024x768_zps2d394b2d.jpg Another check at 500 yards. http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/655001024x768_zpsb081ec9e.jpg Some 5-round groups I shot the first day I took it to the range. Each group was a different load, so there's some variation, and it was so windy that I had to shore up the target against a berm and set up on a bipod between the benches to get a steady sight picture. And yes, the groups do "tighten up" beyond 100 yards. http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/2012-05-24_17-01-06_526-1_zpsae38ce1d.jpg http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/2012-05-24_17-01-28_745-1_zpsfbb0f8b9.jpg http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/2012-05-24_17-32-11_983-1_zpse6fd9d3f.jpg http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/2012-05-24_17-17-30_931-1_zps3c281469.jpg http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/2012-05-24_17-43-15_810-1_zps70d6f91d.jpg Plenty of people have an idea what goes into achieving this kind of thing, regardless of barrel temperature and almost without respect to the load being used. Putting three in a clover leaf at some point isn't a qualifier. You should fire whoever made that barrel. Totally unacceptable.
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