We've disagreed and have gotten pretty heated but I love you in these threads.  No homo.

I happen to know Captain Sands particularly well.  He has literally spent the past 3 years researching how to fix the caustic culture on the teams.  He knows better than anyone how bad the truth actually is.

What does that have to do with anything?

What's your DD214 say?
How many time have you done 48+hr missions with very little sleep and come back to your FOB to immediately get on post for 12 hours, again without sleep and little food?
How many times have your gone a few weeks with the same pair of crusty socks and underwear, and only to swap them out with a previously worn pair that you left to air out?
How long have you lived sleeping on a cot inside of a mud and brick building with no AC?


How many times have you pushed your limits to where the bottom of your feet is just one giant blister, have had diarrhea for 2 months straight finally leading up to needing a couple bags of iV fluids because you finally passed out from dehydration because your body couldn't retain water?



Weird, none of us needed drugs, except for nicotine and Rip Its

@macpherson

Its GD.  Shit talking and arguing is what happens.  I'm sure Josh and I would throw back a beer with no problem.


Open invite to dinner if you ever make it north (assuming you are back in OK)

+1 the life of a deployed grunt is 10Xs harder and more stressful than SOCOM bubbas.  Thats why they go through selection.

I'm back in NE holy shit, just saw you moved.  Beware of the tornadoes! And if I'm ever down there that'd be cool as hell.

Ah, so you're taking up for the guy because you know him, making up stories and putting words in my mouth so you can have an excuse to be offended.

Again...  I worked for someone like you once.  He got to work for me when he didn't learn to listen.

Navy culture in ground operations; what could go wrong?

Of the two people in this post, I'm not the one offended.  Guaranteed

Yeah, I'm just a total out sider. But seeing movies, books, TV, shows all of the crocumentary variety makes kind of wonder. Then waxing bin laden all over the news, who did it, how they did it. Maybe it's all fake, don't know. But I'd rather just have had bin laden found dead in a heap, they all know the U.S. did it. Who, how and when should just be a mystery, or need to know only.

"ground operations" is not what I'm talking about.  

Nor am I offended, just laughing that you walked into it so easily.

What do you do?

Or is it some secret ReconB4 stuff?

Don't be absurd

A few thoughts:

I'm curious what the rates of positives actually are on the team side.  Having a stand down day to address it seems like it has popped up on commands radar.  There was mention in the article that while testing is in place, deployed teams were not tested and that is changing.

In one of the articles they talk with a AD SEAL and two retired SEALs.  Some of what they have to say is interesting.  Outside of drug use, there is talk of members "pimping" their SEAL experience through books, consulting on video games and movies, with a concern that tactics and capabilities are being put too much out there.  There is talk of some members receiving protection from various levels of  command.  There seems to be some concern about a culture change in the community, with some voicing all of this contributes to a much bigger problem that has been allowed to fester.

I trained a former SEAL as a FTO when we hired a newly retired Master Chief upon separation. I know a few others, as we have some that retire in the area where I live. This was pre 9/11 (in late 1999).  On midnight shift, late at night, we had more than a few chances to talk.  He was a Vietnam era SEAL whose last deployment he would acknowledge was Just Cause.  He was very considerate and talked about general stuff, but wasn't interested in discussing details.  His biggest gripe was he had been part of a community that was very capable and the Navy had invested the time and money on training and equipment to make sure that they were.  Standards were tough and rigorous and that was a result of the community itself insisting on it being that way.  Their silence also helped cultivate an image that had the public and potential or current conventional military adversaries looking at them like Boogey Men.  That in some ways was a good thing.  

What he didn't like was publicity.  I asked him about Marcinko's book, and it was interesting.  He never served with Marcinko, but he knew of him through his reputation amongst the teams.  He had had a good reputation for results on operations and as a leader.  There were some in the community who did not like him raiding the teams when he was tasked creating with Red Cell.  Most understood when he did it when he was tasked earlier with creating TAT/Seal Team 6.  What he didn't understand was why he had to write about it.  He didn't read the book, he said he heard enough about it when it came out and wouldn't support airing dirty laundry in the public.

What I find interesting is part of the community seems to want to stick to the silent warrior ethos, while others do write books about their operational experience (books it seems some in the community have problems with being written and the content or accuracy of the content), while others court and advise the entertainment and gaming industry.  It seems some are saying the alleged drug use, however small is another indicator of corrosion of traditional standards and conformity within the community.

he stops women from wanting to reproduce.  when taken out of context that sounds bad.  but, really, its a good thing.

Those guys work in an incredibly difficult business and they help provide the warm blanket of freedom my family and I sleep under every night.

I refuse to judge them. I will simply say "thank you" and thank god for them.

Lastly, I have a SEAL in my family and he is as straight as they come.

"As part of the safety stand-down, all SEALs were required to submit to urinalysis. One SEAL who had tested positive for cocaine last summer tested positive again, this time for prescription drugs. He is being kicked off the teams."
Caught twice and only kicked off the teams. lololololol
Command indescretion, indeed.
How well would he have faired the first time, as a member of the regular Navy without the elite SO Rating?

Am I the only one here saying where has everyone been all these decades?

The use of steroids in the Teams predates most of Arfcommer's birthdays.

It was allowed and tacitly encouraged for literally decades, so I can see how it would naturally spread to other illicit narcotics, especially with Go Pills being used a lot in OIF and OEF under official sanctions.

My steroid plan for BUDS

Matt Bissonnette: Go Pills and No Go Pills

2004: 14yr SEAL Veteran smuggled 10 kilos of Cocaine into Miami

2 SEALs working as PMCs on Maersk Alabama found dead with heroin in cabin


For anyone that worked with them, you knew the body type that makes it through BUDS and SQT, a more wiry physique that is conditioned.

Then you would see guys in operational units that were huge and cut, carrying the M60E3 usually, and it didn't take Lance Armstrong to put 2 & 2 together.

To be fair, most of the guys on Teams I knew were not like that, just your normal build, regular-looking guys who did a lot of PT.  In normal clothes, you would never know the difference.

Not to throw just seals under the bus, but back when I was a young guy, the first time I saw a CAG assault team it was eye opening.

How the fuck did those guys hump WV for 3 weeks?

But now that the usage is beyond PEDs, thats a real problem.

what's the "caustic culture?"  honest question, not picking at your assertion that their culture is caustic.

You heard wrong.

They should also write a letter to the ATF!!!!

The rock star living thinking rules don't apply.

not just admin rules, but tactical rules as well.

It's my understanding from speaking to a former SEAL and also a former member of one of the Army's special operations groups that the SEALS are victims of their own success.  They are a very small community that the Navy invests in heavily.  There is a constant strain on keeping good leadership.  The pace of operations wears everyone down and yet the Navy just keeps coming back to them for more and more.  It's not a matter of just expanding the number of teams or personnel because guys like that are hard to find and keep.  A certain kind of rot has set in that makes them all look bad even though they are really fundamentally solid.  They're just showing the wear and tear of the years of constant warfare. 

Different rules for SpecOps squids. Normal run of the mill squid and you are given NJP, treatment and ADSEP upon a positive drug test. In fact, I'm a UPC. The instruction says you are to be discharged. I guess SOs get a pass.

The USN is rife with different communities following and ignoring regulations and instruction as they please.

tks

The navy has spent upwards of five million dollars to train me. I would have been gone after my first hot piss test.

Guys that want to build muscle mass often have problems carrying a rucksack.

I remember 2 guys that died on a ruck march because they were taking creatine and weren't balanced out with their nutritional and hydration demands.

There was a knee-jerk to it from the leadership, banning use of creatine and similar products that the gym rats were using.

Every unit has different segments of the population:

Motorcycle guys
Gym rats looking to build muscle mass for physique
Drinkers
Clubbers
Video gamers
Gun guys

SEALs have always had an intense drinking culture, where reckless beer consumption was part of a bonding experience for everyone.

Almost open use of steroids was a staple on the Teams dating back to at least the 1980s, especially with the bodybuilder profession gaining more popularity with the rise of Arnold and the 80s action movies.

If 5 out of 900 piss hot that is not really a huge problem but if Captain Sands wants to work it I would defer to his more informed opinion of the situation.

That being said the fact that the Mil is not using current medical science to enhance and improve the performance, longevity, and health of anyone who signs up to fight is criminal.

I can see an argument for professional sports needing to be a level playing field but anything we could do to help keep guys healthy and performing better should be perused with enthusiasm.

What's needed is drug-detecting hair-gel, that in the presence of drugs within the body, turns the hair bright pink. 

Problem solved. PSS.

5 out of 900 are being disciplined.  

If that was the only issue, this wouldn't be an issue.

What? The LRRS unit in every BFSB is a batt dumping ground for dudes who get popped for juice and other drugs.

Creatine?  Any proof of this?  I've done all sorts of torture while on creatine.

hah for real

"Welp we just smoked the presidential envoy from durkkstan, who wants to play backgammon?"

I never needed drugs to do that mission profile, and we spent a lot of time in the most uncomfortable positions on both fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft before insertion.

Ever sat in a parachute harness for 9 hours with you and your buddy's combat load rucksack smashed into your reserve parachute?

You can't breathe.

We couldn't wait for the doors to open and get out of the aircraft.

Ever ride an MH-47 for 5 or 6 hours, breathing the fumes from the fuel bladder the whole flight, dudes puking in their patrol caps?

Then once you hit the ground after jumping or roping, you get to spend the next 2-10 days on your own supplies out of the ruck, sleeping in the mud/sand/dirt/snow, long movements with ruck, and still expected to perform actions on the objective with aggression and clarity of thought.

Somehow, miraculously, we did it without performance-enhancing drugs or illegal narcotics.

snip
Exemestane- So I would use Exemestane(aromasin) instead of Adex because exemestane is suicidal. The aromatase biding sites are destroyed, leaving my PCT easier to deal with. Less risk of gyno, mental sanity still intact. Aromasin also has androgenous behavior, so more agressiveness than Adex, which is good for soldiers in training. (gotta stay fired up)

I can see where gynecomastia ( aka "bitch tit" ) would be a concern at BUDS..

That's a lot of liability.  Roids, with current tech, are a lifetime commitment.

Maybe blood doping a-la Team USA/Lance Armstrong?

He's not even a pogue.  Senior enlisted Navy type that deals with electronic systems.

Zero relevant experience to combat operations on dry land, although he supported Squeals once, so lots of fanboisim for them gets inserted into any threads about them, even though his experience with them confirms major problems with their community.

Haha

If that was true, it only proves my point.

Ranger Regiment doesn't tolerate pissing hot.

When I was in Corps LRS, we didn't have these kinds of problems, and it wasn't a "dumping ground" for Battalion based on RFS.

There are only so many slots for NCOs in Ranger Regiment.  A lot of them went to LRS after getting promoted, and were some of the best NCOs the Army ever had.

The Army didn't like guys going there instead of to the line units, so they disbanded LRS.

Better to rely on technology than actual human assets on the battlefield, except in SOCOM, is their thought process on it.

If you play college baseball, (even juco), at the beginning the team will say you're either on roads or off the team, "and here's your roids."

We are talking 18yos who have statistically a small shot of ever being drafted.  Goes on at 100% of schools that I'm familiar with.  But that was about 10 yrs ago.

bingo

Autopsy report pointed to high levels of creatine and muscle failure of the heart IIRC.

When you say, "all sorts of torture", did that include carrying Large ALICE packs with 60-120lbs, in addition to your LCE with mags, water, essential items, and a weapon?

We had public NJP's in the base theater in Oki after a whole shitload of dudes pissed hot. They marched those bastards out on stage like a scene from Branded. The BN CO asked a random jarhead from the crowd what the punishment should be for the accused.

"Crush them, Sir." Whole place goes bonkers. Good times.

That's how it was on my college badminton team. We had to get on the juice to perform to the level that was demanded of us.

Well if SEALs are testing positive for hard drug abuse but not getting disciplined would be the Commands fault.

Is that what you're saying?

I've done some rucking, though never at a forced pace or anything.  I've done a lot of other stuff.  I'm not saying you're wrong.  I personally stopped taking creatine because of the studies showing it can cause hypertension (though it never gave me hypertension).  And I feel fine without it.  But I took it for years without issues, that I know of anyways.  I know of others who have taken it for entire NFL careers without issue.

That kind of stuff gives judge advocates heart attacks.  But frankly, I think we need more of that.  I'm all in favor of adjudicating, finding guilt, then cutting stripes off with a bayonet in public.

Sounds like the medical board here. A good old boy's club.

Vs the pharmacy board which is usually pretty brutal