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Posted: 8/2/2023 4:49:30 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The supreme court probably won't take the case without a circuit split. Currently this is just a remand to the lower court. It has a long way to go. After remand, I still expect the lower court to find against FPC, then an appeal goes to the circuit court at which point we probably win. Then ATF appeals higher, and the en banc hearing goes in FPC's favor. Then ATF appeals to the supreme court and the case doesn't get taken unless another district court has already ruled the ATF's rule is lawful. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So what's the consensus here? Is this going to be another 5th circuit win like the bumpstocks and the rest of us get left in the cold when SCOTUS never takes it up? Currently this is just a remand to the lower court. It has a long way to go. After remand, I still expect the lower court to find against FPC, then an appeal goes to the circuit court at which point we probably win. Then ATF appeals higher, and the en banc hearing goes in FPC's favor. Then ATF appeals to the supreme court and the case doesn't get taken unless another district court has already ruled the ATF's rule is lawful. Cert is almost always granted when it involves the fed govt losing, so if the 5th en banc says braces are not SBRs I would be shocked if cert was denied. Kharn |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 4:57:49 AM EST
[#2]
Aug 1 (Reuters) - A U.S. regulation restricting ownership of gun accessories known as pistol braces is likely illegal, a federal appeals court ruled Tuesday, a victory for a gun rights group challenging the rule. A 2-1 panel of the New Orleans-based 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals found that U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives finalized the rule in January without giving the public a meaningful chance to comment on it. That made it invalid under the federal Administrative Procedure Act, the panel found. The court did not immediately block enforcement of the rule, instead sending the case back to U.S. District Judge Reed O'Connor in Fort Worth, Texas. O'Connor will have to decide whether to issue an order blocking enforcement while the case goes forward, and if so, whether that order will apply nationwide or only to the plaintiffs in the case. Several federal judges have already issued preliminary orders blocking enforcement of the rule enacted by President Joe Biden's administration and challenged by lawsuits from gun rights groups. But those orders apply only to members of the groups, and only in those judges' jurisdictions. The lawsuit was brought by the Firearms Policy Coalition. Cody Wisniewski, the group's lawyer, called the ruling "a huge win for peaceable gun owners across the nation." ATF and the U.S. Department of Justice declined to comment. More in link https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-pistol-brace-rule-likely-illegal-federal-appeals-court-rules-2023-08-01/ |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 8:13:03 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:
/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/B926BC70-2451-4EC1-A889-3A3C070B9F9D-404.gif  FATF |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 9:36:00 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't think that particular part was part of the 5 point "legislative" test. I thought that part (and the repeated mentions of flip-flopping and the SB-Mini) was just the court kicking the ATF in the sack for fun, and I enjoyed every word of it.  I think the legislative test starts in on page 23, and runs through page 31, and then is turn to "logical out-growth". IANAL, but it sure was a good read! (Well, the decent was stupid and circular). You're right on those details. As you say though there was a lot of attacking the atf outside of the reason for the decision. But they booted the rule on APA technicalities, NOT on a ruling the ATF has no right to do basically what they did. For all the criticism of the rule they did there seems to be no teeth to the decision. They say explicitly that their judgement does not bind the circuit's next decision. |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 9:44:42 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The supreme court probably won't take the case without a circuit split. Currently this is just a remand to the lower court. It has a long way to go. After remand, I still expect the lower court to find against FPC, then an appeal goes to the circuit court at which point we probably win. Then ATF appeals higher, and the en banc hearing goes in FPC's favor. Then ATF appeals to the supreme court and the case doesn't get taken unless another district court has already ruled the ATF's rule is lawful. If I understand this correctly, it would mean pistols braces DON’T an SBR, and the ‘free SBR’ is still a free SBR because the rule isn’t illegal. Am I missing the part where the en banc goes to FPC making the pistol brace rule now void or something? This all hinges on FPC WINNING an appeal in Circuit Court. MAYBE Joe Biden will just EO pistol braces into SBRs to save the ATF from themselves. I mean, wouldn’t be the first time the President used his EO powers to help out a friend. |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 10:10:02 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I understand this correctly, it would mean pistols braces DON'T an SBR, and the 'free SBR' is still a free SBR because the rule isn't illegal. Am I missing the part where the en banc goes to FPC making the pistol brace rule now void or something? This all hinges on FPC WINNING an appeal in Circuit Court. MAYBE Joe Biden will just EO pistol braces into SBRs to save the ATF from themselves. I mean, wouldn't be the first time the President used his EO powers to help out a friend. People who registered under the forbearance will probably be able to keep their guns on the registry as SBR's if they want to. Ideally the supreme court would take the case and declare SBR's to be constitutionally protected and remove them from the NFA. I don't think that's very likely unfortunately. |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 10:55:41 AM EST
[#7]
GREAT NEWS! ATF HUMILIATED In Court! Pistol Brace Rule UNCONSTITUTIONAL! But Wait...There's MORE!!
 GREAT NEWS! ATF HUMILIATED In Court! Pistol Brace Rule UNCONSTITUTIONAL! But Wait...There's MORE!! |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 1:03:07 PM EST
[#8]
Listen to the 4:00 minute mark
 Pistol Brace fallout begins... Media is starting to realize how MASSIVE this is NATIONWIDE... |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 4:31:58 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: BATFE director already told Congress that they don't want to take this nonsense to court. I'm sure we can trust them on this. |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 5:38:38 PM EST
[#10]
This is VERY good news. I’m cautiously optimistic but I just don’t see the FATF giving up that easily.
I guess time will tell. |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 5:56:08 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm sure we can trust them on this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: BATFE director already told Congress that they don't want to take this nonsense to court. I'm sure we can trust them on this. They aren't saying that, because they are good guys. They are saying it, because they know they will lose. |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 6:01:31 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm sure we can trust them on this. Atleast 250k afrcomers trust them. 
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Posted: 8/2/2023 6:09:56 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You were free since the day you were born and even conceived! Do not comply! Never comply! Be ungovernable! 
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Posted: 8/2/2023 6:57:39 PM EST
[#14]
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Posted: 8/2/2023 10:25:00 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atleast 250k afrcomers trust them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm sure we can trust them on this. Atleast 250k afrcomers trust them. Trust them? Hardly That was the best option for a lot of people. You can bet the majority of people that have braced guns had no idea this was going on. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 1:16:00 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the end result (at least in the 5th circuit) is that braces don't make SBR's and the rule will be tossed on APA challenges. ATF will be able to try a new rule if they want but the final rule will have to more closely resemble the initial proposal. People who registered under the forbearance will probably be able to keep their guns on the registry as SBR's if they want to. Ideally the supreme court would take the case and declare SBR's to be constitutionally protected and remove them from the NFA. I don't think that's very likely unfortunately. Yeah kinda sucks for the free SBR folks. Atf wil tell them to pay $200 to keep what they were told was free. I wonder what kind of deadline to pay they’d offer. Some folks went crazy. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 4:40:51 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah kinda sucks for the free SBR folks. Atf wil tell them to pay $200 to keep what they were told was free. I wonder what kind of deadline to pay they’d offer. Some folks went crazy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think the end result (at least in the 5th circuit) is that braces don't make SBR's and the rule will be tossed on APA challenges. ATF will be able to try a new rule if they want but the final rule will have to more closely resemble the initial proposal. People who registered under the forbearance will probably be able to keep their guns on the registry as SBR's if they want to. Ideally the supreme court would take the case and declare SBR's to be constitutionally protected and remove them from the NFA. I don't think that's very likely unfortunately. Yeah kinda sucks for the free SBR folks. Atf wil tell them to pay $200 to keep what they were told was free. I wonder what kind of deadline to pay they’d offer. Some folks went crazy. I bet that doesn't happen, first they'd have to admit they were wrong then they'd potentially have a bunch of guns fall off the registry. The FATF wants everything registered so I find it unlikely they'd do anything that would lead to people pulling guns off the registry. Then you'd also have the issue of people who put stocks on guns that were legally registered at the time. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 5:21:59 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They aren't saying that, because they are good guys. They are saying it, because they know they will lose. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: BATFE director already told Congress that they don't want to take this nonsense to court. I'm sure we can trust them on this. They aren't saying that, because they are good guys. They are saying it, because they know they will lose.  Attached FileKharn |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 5:51:20 AM EST
[#19]
The ATF has made themselves irrelevant. For years they drew power off of the fear of ‘coming to your door’. Their own stupidity has made the public loose that fear. The courts are only reinforcing this.
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Posted: 8/3/2023 6:21:03 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The ATF has made themselves irrelevant. For years they drew power off of the fear of ‘coming to your door’. Their own stupidity has made the public loose that fear. The courts are only reinforcing this. I wouldn't go nearly that far, they're a political clown car of an organization at this point but they're still going after individuals and will and do throw people in prison. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 6:42:44 AM EST
[#21]
Got my fifth and final free SBR approved couple days ago. Really nice saving $1000 and no engraving bullshit
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Posted: 8/3/2023 7:45:10 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got my fifth and final free SBR approved couple days ago. Really nice saving $1000 and no engraving bullshit You need to go double check your paperwork does what you think it does… |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 7:47:45 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah kinda sucks for the free SBR folks. Atf wil tell them to pay $200 to keep what they were told was free. I wonder what kind of deadline to pay they'd offer. Some folks went crazy. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 8:02:35 AM EST
[#24]
Quoted: You need to go double check your paperwork does what you think it does… Quoted: I highly doubt that happens. The most likely course is they end up with registered SBR's without paying anything. Bottom line is no one knows. Once again it is impossible to follow the law because it is a constantly moving goal post. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 8:03:01 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't go nearly that far, they're a political clown car of an organization at this point but they're still going after individuals and will and do throw people in prison. Only people that go out of their way to say ‘look at me’. That behind the scene fear that made people afraid to take something to the range is gone. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 8:16:20 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bet that doesn't happen, first they'd have to admit they were wrong then they'd potentially have a bunch of guns fall off the registry. The FATF wants everything registered so I find it unlikely they'd do anything that would lead to people pulling guns off the registry. Then you'd also have the issue of people who put stocks on guns that were legally registered at the time. You completely misunderstood what I said. Go back and read it again. I said nothing about pulling off. The people sent in applications and fingerprints. The free SBR would now get a $200 fine to keep it, or the pistol brace/Burt stock goes back on. ATF doesn’t have to admit anything they did was wrong. I think it would be funny for the people who registered to keep their registered SBR without engraving. It’s 250 thousand guns registered. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 8:18:12 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got my fifth and final free SBR approved couple days ago. Really nice saving $1000 and no engraving bullshit Nice troll. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 8:23:02 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You completely misunderstood what I said. Go back and read it again. I said nothing about pulling off. The people sent in applications and fingerprints. The free SBR would now get a $200 fine to keep it, or the pistol brace/Burt stock goes back on. ATF doesn't have to admit anything they did was wrong. I think it would be funny for the people who registered to keep their registered SBR without engraving. It's 250 thousand guns registered. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 8:39:33 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You completely misunderstood what I said. Go back and read it again. I said nothing about pulling off. The people sent in applications and fingerprints. The free SBR would now get a $200 fine to keep it, or the pistol brace/Burt stock goes back on. ATF doesn’t have to admit anything they did was wrong. I think it would be funny for the people who registered to keep their registered SBR without engraving. It’s 250 thousand guns registered. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I bet that doesn't happen, first they'd have to admit they were wrong then they'd potentially have a bunch of guns fall off the registry. The FATF wants everything registered so I find it unlikely they'd do anything that would lead to people pulling guns off the registry. Then you'd also have the issue of people who put stocks on guns that were legally registered at the time. You completely misunderstood what I said. Go back and read it again. I said nothing about pulling off. The people sent in applications and fingerprints. The free SBR would now get a $200 fine to keep it, or the pistol brace/Burt stock goes back on. ATF doesn’t have to admit anything they did was wrong. I think it would be funny for the people who registered to keep their registered SBR without engraving. It’s 250 thousand guns registered. You seem to be the one misunderstanding my post, I perfectly understand what you said and drew the conclusion which you didn't include in your post that if they chose to do that many of those guns would come off the registry. |
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Posted: 8/3/2023 8:40:46 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not going to happen. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You completely misunderstood what I said. Go back and read it again. I said nothing about pulling off. The people sent in applications and fingerprints. The free SBR would now get a $200 fine to keep it, or the pistol brace/Burt stock goes back on. ATF doesn't have to admit anything they did was wrong. I think it would be funny for the people who registered to keep their registered SBR without engraving. It's 250 thousand guns registered. Agreed |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:54:21 PM EST
[#31]
My YouTube suggested videos just got a bunch or video recently uploaded about the pistol brace BS. Did anything new happen that is worth watching these guys flap their jaws?
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:09:33 PM EST
[#32]
Got my first of four Form 1s back a couple days ago.
Wonder how much of a premium factory engraved sbrs will command in the future... |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:22:03 PM EST
[#33]
Any links to the filings that were due yesterday?
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:24:02 PM EST
[#34]
man... great news!
can someone lend me their scuba equipment so I can retrieve my braces? |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:35:27 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any links to the filings that were due yesterday? Court extended stay till Tues 5pm 8 Aug |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:39:18 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got my first of four Form 1s back a couple days ago. Wonder how much of a premium factory engraved sbrs will command in the future... Interesting point, hadn't thought of that. My only approval so far is my CZ Scorpion, but of course factory but stocks are nowhere to be found. Well, a couple of places have the whole unit at super inflated prices but what I need is just the butt portion which should be $45. CZ only imports stuff occasionally so I'm hoping something will come in soon. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 11:02:56 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting point, hadn't thought of that. My only approval so far is my CZ Scorpion, but of course factory but stocks are nowhere to be found. Well, a couple of places have the whole unit at super inflated prices but what I need is just the butt portion which should be $45. CZ only imports stuff occasionally so I'm hoping something will come in soon. CMMG Ripstock stock piece only $150 wtf |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 11:07:37 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Court extended stay till Tues 5pm 8 Aug Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Any links to the filings that were due yesterday? Court extended stay till Tues 5pm 8 Aug Alito extended the Frame/ receiver SC response to Tuesday due to the SC vacation. Party responses in that case are below the two videos in the frame thread. Frame receiver Pg 3 post 49 & 50 Here is the 2-1 judge ruling in the pistol case. The decent is at the bottom paged 43-58. https://assets.nationbuilder.com/firearmspolicycoalition/pages/6710/attachments/original/1690919131/Mock_v_Garland_Opinion.pdf |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 11:07:50 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I keep my LTC and absolutely celebrate everytime a new state gets Constitutional carry  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: inb4 those who complied come into this thread and seethe lmao The same reason people with a license to carry were seething when constitutional carry passed. lol Never mind that the biggest supporters of constitutional carry had LTCs in the meantime (and maybe still do for reciprocity and NICS skip.) I keep my LTC and absolutely celebrate everytime a new state gets Constitutional carry Same. I just renewed my CCL last year for another 5 years even though my state got constitutional carry a couple of years ago. I like having it for reciprocity when traveling and to skip the BG check when buying at an FFL. |
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Posted: 8/19/2023 12:34:20 PM EST
[#40]
more FPC legal challenges for nationwide injunction
 BIG UPDATE: Challenge To ATF Pistol Brace Rule Coming To A Head! |
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Posted: 8/19/2023 1:36:21 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: more FPC legal challenges for nationwide injunction  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALR2LOzQDGwNothing in this new filing on the second amendment merits of the case? |
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Posted: 9/1/2023 12:42:06 PM EST
[#42]
Anything new on this Charlie Foxtrot?
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Posted: 9/1/2023 1:42:26 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anything new on this Charlie Foxtrot? Nothing that I've heard. 27th Sep seems stuck in my mind. |
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Posted: 9/9/2023 2:04:00 PM EST
[#44]
Bump for news
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Posted: 9/9/2023 2:15:54 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah kinda sucks for the free SBR folks. Atf wil tell them to pay $200 to keep what they were told was free. I wonder what kind of deadline to pay they’d offer. Some folks went crazy. No, they won't. |
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Posted: 9/9/2023 2:20:52 PM EST
[#46]
The longer this drags on, the less optimistic I am that it will be overturned nationwide. I think this becomes another "legal in the 5th circuit only" situation like bumpstocks.
What can be done to make sure SCOTUS doesn't refuse to rule on it when it hits that stage? |
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Posted: 9/9/2023 9:37:07 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The longer this drags on, the less optimistic I am that it will be overturned nationwide. I think this becomes another "legal in the 5th circuit only" situation like bumpstocks. What can be done to make sure SCOTUS doesn't refuse to rule on it when it hits that stage? 
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Posted: 9/9/2023 9:56:12 PM EST
[#48]
I just waited 362 days for a suppressor approval. I am jealous of all these other approvals. How is that possible? Or does it show… That it is possible to be a government employee and actually work!
Perhaps I have gone too far. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:56:13 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bump for news I'm not tracking on any of this and haven't been for quite a while. Have there been any arrests with regards to the possession of pistol braces? Anyone stuck in custody? |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 3:27:44 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not tracking on any of this and haven't been for quite a while. Have there been any arrests with regards to the possession of pistol braces? Anyone stuck in custody? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bump for news I'm not tracking on any of this and haven't been for quite a while. Have there been any arrests with regards to the possession of pistol braces? Anyone stuck in custody? Unaware od any arrests |
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