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Posted: 12/21/2021 4:34:28 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I had some kids fresh back from basic training and was doing some PMI. I was surprised that a few of them were still being taught (yelled at) that having your magazine resting on the ground is unacceptable and will induce malfunctions. TC 3-22.9 clearly states the exact opposite of this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/188236/Screenshot_20211218-190411_Adobe_Acrobat-2209336.jpg I also made a social media post about actually reading the material the Army puts out. I recieved a reply from a gentleman on the periphery of DEVGRU who informed me that if my mag is on the ground in the prone my firing position sucks. He didn't elaborate further so that brings me here. Can someone fill me on why having the mag on the ground in the prone makes for a shitty prone unsupported firing position? You sure the guy was actually DEVGRU? Look I'm not pro but I've met SF guys who also sucked as much as I did as shooting. Just saying. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 9:22:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No! Read the manual. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wouldn't resting the mag on the ground make it supported? Yes. No! Read the manual. I have, it is impossible for the magazine to touch the ground if you go by the FM. What the OP posted is a Training Circular amd mot the FM. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 9:43:26 AM EDT
[#3]
For the guys asking how is having the mag on the ground not considered a supported prone position keep in mind that the Army has its own unique terminology. Virtually everywhere else using the mag as a monopod is viewed as a supported position
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Posted: 12/21/2021 9:50:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Why mono support when you should have bipod support?
What is this poor man's use of a magazine, it's the US army we are talking about, they shit money in the dumbest of places. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 10:13:00 AM EDT
[#5]
In this thread we figure out who actually shoots their AR's.....
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Posted: 12/21/2021 10:32:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree that using the magazine as a support won't cause malfunctions. I won't do it and I will advise anyone who asks against it. I've fired over 30,000 rounds over the last three years, out of M16's and M4A1's, with the majority of them prone, with the magazine on the ground. I have experienced zero malfunctions. I started shooting that way around 2009, but can only quantify the last three years' round count. I shot a 192-6X (out of 200 possible) at 500Y with an issued M4A1 and M855A1 on the NMC course during the US Army Small Arms Championship, with the magazine on the ground. It is stable and accurate, and does not induce malfunctions. Please quantify your statement in order to further discussion. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 10:51:00 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For unsupported, you cant use it. For foxhole supported you can rest your hand under the weapon on top of the sandbag, and rest the magazine. The pressure of maybe the magazine moving upward 1/64 or one gazillionth of an inch does nothing. Never had a jam. Always increases stability. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 10:59:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Was yelled at to not have the magazine on the ground while prone more of as a “lazy” reason. Don’t be lazy and slouch during knowledge, don’t be lazy and scuff the heels of your boots while marching, don’t be lazy and touch the mag to the ground while prone. That kind of lazy.
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Posted: 12/21/2021 11:04:40 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have, it is impossible for the magazine to touch the ground if you go by the FM. What the OP posted is a Training Circular amd mot the FM. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wouldn't resting the mag on the ground make it supported? Yes. No! Read the manual. I have, it is impossible for the magazine to touch the ground if you go by the FM. What the OP posted is a Training Circular amd mot the FM. TC 3-22.9 replaced FM 3-22.9 about 5 years ago. FM 3-22.9 replaced FM 23-9 about 13 years ago. Something tells me the last of these you were familiar with predates all of this. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 11:19:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've fired over 30,000 rounds over the last three years, out of M16's and M4A1's, with the majority of them prone, with the magazine on the ground. I have experienced zero malfunctions. I started shooting that way around 2009, but can only quantify the last three years' round count. I shot a 192-6X (out of 200 possible) at 500Y with an issued M4A1 and M855A1 on the NMC course during the US Army Small Arms Championship, with the magazine on the ground. It is stable and accurate, and does not induce malfunctions. Please quantify your statement in order to further discussion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I disagree that using the magazine as a support won't cause malfunctions. I won't do it and I will advise anyone who asks against it. I've fired over 30,000 rounds over the last three years, out of M16's and M4A1's, with the majority of them prone, with the magazine on the ground. I have experienced zero malfunctions. I started shooting that way around 2009, but can only quantify the last three years' round count. I shot a 192-6X (out of 200 possible) at 500Y with an issued M4A1 and M855A1 on the NMC course during the US Army Small Arms Championship, with the magazine on the ground. It is stable and accurate, and does not induce malfunctions. Please quantify your statement in order to further discussion. I shot all those same matches that you've shot and the train-ups before them in the same fashion and I never had a problem, either.  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 11:30:47 AM EDT
[#11]
Supporting with a magazine can cause malfunctions by pushing the mag too far up into the chamber. F course this depends on the rifle and the magazine. You may be able to get away with it. But then again maybe not.
You can also get a bounce similar to resting directly on any other hard surface. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 11:36:55 AM EDT
[#12]
I was advised that trainers teaching not to rest the mag on the ground was a holdover from the M14 days. It was true of that weapon system, but is not true of the M16/M4 family of weapons. It's fine to rest the mag on the ground.
Source: USAMU instructors during a pre-competition marksmanship clinic. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 12:01:28 PM EDT
[#13]
If you experience a malfunction because you are using the magazine on the ground or a hard surface as additional support, the problem is that magazine.
In the event of such a malfunction, the next thing you do with said magazine is immediately destroy it. It shouldn’t even be a discussion in this day and age but then again all you have to do is turn on the news to see that we live in a clown world. 
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Posted: 12/21/2021 12:13:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have, it is impossible for the magazine to touch the ground if you go by the FM. What the OP posted is a Training Circular amd mot the FM. The TC replaced the FM. The FM you seem to be referencing is almost a decade obsolete. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 12:18:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shot all those same matches that you've shot and the train-ups before them in the same fashion and I never had a problem, either. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/501509/20211221_091718_jpg-2211595.JPG     |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 12:32:28 PM EDT
[#16]
I am more stable with proper sling tension, support hand placement, and firing elbow angle than getting lower and placing my mag on the ground.
I guess if I could get into a good position with a mag long enough to touch the ground then it would help, but you can form a better position while being higher than normal mags allow |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 12:38:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am more stable with proper sling tension, support hand placement, and firing elbow angle than getting lower and placing my mag on the ground. I guess if I could get into a good position with a mag long enough to touch the ground then it would help, but you can form a better position while being higher than normal mags allow Also makes you dependent on the sling being present |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 12:39:11 PM EDT
[#18]
 Range Day Cola Warrior Stuff 2:20 in this video. 300yrds. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 12:46:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am more stable with proper sling tension, support hand placement, and firing elbow angle than getting lower and placing my mag on the ground. I guess if I could get into a good position with a mag long enough to touch the ground then it would help, but you can form a better position while being higher than normal mags allow Sling up a service M4 and tell me how well it shoots. Barrel flex is a thing. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 2:22:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Supporting with a magazine can cause malfunctions by pushing the mag too far up into the chamber. F course this depends on the rifle and the magazine. You may be able to get away with it. But then again maybe not. You can also get a bounce similar to resting directly on any other hard surface. Explain to the class how that works??? When the magazine is held in place by the magazine catch... I'll wait... |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 2:25:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think the Army has even taught digging foxholes or shooting from fighting positions since 9-11. The last time I remember qualifying from a foxhole was about 2001. The 10 rounds kneeling came somewhere around 2006. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 11:29:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I shot all those same matches that you've shot and the train-ups before them in the same fashion and I never had a problem, either. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/501509/20211221_091718_jpg-2211595.JPG https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/176258225_10223844318287399_4565091804390380483_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=09cbfe&_nc_ohc=OPZKCauFhxcAX9tSqTz&tn=J2sqYsoo68EJO6Q0&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT8LEQcND3isa-hacNx80Ru027NJzt5gzG_huxW7NVDn5w&oe=61E5C99C Awesome! Good work! I wasn't quite good enough with a pistol for the DD.  Accuracy-focused pistol shooting has always been tough for me, for some reason. |
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Posted: 12/22/2021 5:08:09 AM EDT
[#23]
There's been some confusion in this thread. The Army definition of prone unsupported means no use of external support, like sandbags or similar. The second string of fire in the Army qual is prone supported which allows soldiers to use sand bags for support.
I've been using the prone mag support for years. Between the magazine and both elbows I can get a pretty stable shooting position. Not as stable as slung up in a jacket with my service rifle, but then M4 qual isn't the same as service rifle prone. For one, an M4 isn't free floated and the sling tension will introduce an inconsistent shift in POI. Second the current qualification requires fairly speedy position and mag changes which isn't conducive to being wrapped up in a sling. The only malfunction I've witnessed from doing this involved both blanks and a really old magazine. The magazine was loose enough in the mag well that when pushed from the front it would pivot and cause the wide nose of the blanks to get hung up on the flat below the feed ramp. The temporary solution was to apply a forward pressure on the mag to help tilt the blanks the correct direction to aid feeding. I don't believe this would have been an issue with live ammo, nor with a serviceable magazine. I have seen some soldiers struggle to get into a good shooting position with the mag dug in. Its usually caused by a few smaller issues stacking together. IOTVs with plates and mags are pretty thick which puts their torso higher. The IOTV also greatly inhibits a good stock position in a shooter's shoulder. Females often have issues getting their head high enough in prone without their helmet slouching forward, its due to their hair interfering with the nape pad on the helmet's chin strap. Mag mono-podding is still taught as an option, but a good coach or instructor recognizes that it may not work well for everyone or in every situation. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 12:27:54 AM EDT
[#24]
I have shot prone unsupported with my mag jammed into the ground for over a decade now.
Expert marksman for the past 15 years running, 40/40 consistently for the past 8 years. Only mag I’ve ever had malfunction on me was an old piece of crap that malfunctioned when I shot standing up with it too. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 1:24:50 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: I had some kids fresh back from basic training and was doing some PMI. I was surprised that a few of them were still being taught (yelled at) that having your magazine resting on the ground is unacceptable and will induce malfunctions. TC 3-22.9 clearly states the exact opposite of this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/188236/Screenshot_20211218-190411_Adobe_Acrobat-2209336.jpg I also made a social media post about actually reading the material the Army puts out. I recieved a reply from a gentleman on the periphery of DEVGRU who informed me that if my mag is on the ground in the prone my firing position sucks. He didn't elaborate further so that brings me here. Can someone fill me on why having the mag on the ground in the prone makes for a shitty prone unsupported firing position? There is a reason it is considered cheating to have your magazine on the ground during Service Rifle competition, and it isn't because of an increased chance of you having to perform remedial actions. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 1:32:43 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think the Army has even taught digging foxholes or shooting from fighting positions since 9-11. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For unsupported, you cant use it. For foxhole supported you can rest your hand under the weapon on top of the sandbag, and rest the magazine. The pressure of maybe the magazine moving upward 1/64 or one gazillionth of an inch does nothing. Never had a jam. Always increases stability. I went to OSUT for 13F in 2003 and we were definitely still being prepared to defend the Fulda Gap, digging fighting positions and all. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 1:44:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Being a big fat person impedes magazine-monopod shooting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think that scenario exists but it will be because you want to get your rifle higher off the ground to shoot over an obstruction and you will probably have your forearm held awkwardly as high up as possible with your body in some weird contorted position. I don't think getting in comfortable low prone and lifting the built in magazine/monopod a 1/2" off the ground for a purely administrative PRONE, UNSUPPORTED is going to come up much. Being a big fat person impedes magazine-monopod shooting. Laughs in 40 round mags |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 1:51:49 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's been some confusion in this thread. The Army definition of prone unsupported means no use of external support, like sandbags or similar. The second string of fire in the Army qual is prone supported which allows soldiers to use sand bags for support. I've been using the prone mag support for years. Between the magazine and both elbows I can get a pretty stable shooting position. Not as stable as slung up in a jacket with my service rifle, but then M4 qual isn't the same as service rifle prone. For one, an M4 isn't free floated and the sling tension will introduce an inconsistent shift in POI. Second the current qualification requires fairly speedy position and mag changes which isn't conducive to being wrapped up in a sling. The only malfunction I've witnessed from doing this involved both blanks and a really old magazine. The magazine was loose enough in the mag well that when pushed from the front it would pivot and cause the wide nose of the blanks to get hung up on the flat below the feed ramp. The temporary solution was to apply a forward pressure on the mag to help tilt the blanks the correct direction to aid feeding. I don't believe this would have been an issue with live ammo, nor with a serviceable magazine. I have seen some soldiers struggle to get into a good shooting position with the mag dug in. Its usually caused by a few smaller issues stacking together. IOTVs with plates and mags are pretty thick which puts their torso higher. The IOTV also greatly inhibits a good stock position in a shooter's shoulder. Females often have issues getting their head high enough in prone without their helmet slouching forward, its due to their hair interfering with the nape pad on the helmet's chin strap. Mag mono-podding is still taught as an option, but a good coach or instructor recognizes that it may not work well for everyone or in every situation. The "new" qual for the army is as follows You start standing, 1 50m target exposure - go prone unsupported - now engage 9 remaining exposures -move to barricade and assume prone supported position, and change mags- 10 exposures -assumed kneeling supported position behind barricade , change mags- 10 exposure -assume standing supported position behind barricade, change mags- 10 exposures all on your own with no stopping, no alibis etc. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 2:13:41 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army's marksmanship manuals have always been a near-desperate attempt to address and correct misinformation, bad advice, and outright bad training practices that get passed on from person to person. The only time I have seen success overcoming this is with competitive programs that offer select Soldiers opportunities for more advanced training and experiences or formal training programs actually run by competent groups like the AMU. But, all of this is working against institutional inertia. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 2:21:39 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "new" qual for the army is as follows You start standing, 1 50m target exposure - go prone unsupported - now engage 9 remaining exposures -move to barricade and assume prone supported position, and change mags- 10 exposures -assumed kneeling supported position behind barricade , change mags- 10 exposure -assume standing supported position behind barricade, change mags- 10 exposures all on your own with no stopping, no alibis etc. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There's been some confusion in this thread. The Army definition of prone unsupported means no use of external support, like sandbags or similar. The second string of fire in the Army qual is prone supported which allows soldiers to use sand bags for support. I've been using the prone mag support for years. Between the magazine and both elbows I can get a pretty stable shooting position. Not as stable as slung up in a jacket with my service rifle, but then M4 qual isn't the same as service rifle prone. For one, an M4 isn't free floated and the sling tension will introduce an inconsistent shift in POI. Second the current qualification requires fairly speedy position and mag changes which isn't conducive to being wrapped up in a sling. The only malfunction I've witnessed from doing this involved both blanks and a really old magazine. The magazine was loose enough in the mag well that when pushed from the front it would pivot and cause the wide nose of the blanks to get hung up on the flat below the feed ramp. The temporary solution was to apply a forward pressure on the mag to help tilt the blanks the correct direction to aid feeding. I don't believe this would have been an issue with live ammo, nor with a serviceable magazine. I have seen some soldiers struggle to get into a good shooting position with the mag dug in. Its usually caused by a few smaller issues stacking together. IOTVs with plates and mags are pretty thick which puts their torso higher. The IOTV also greatly inhibits a good stock position in a shooter's shoulder. Females often have issues getting their head high enough in prone without their helmet slouching forward, its due to their hair interfering with the nape pad on the helmet's chin strap. Mag mono-podding is still taught as an option, but a good coach or instructor recognizes that it may not work well for everyone or in every situation. The "new" qual for the army is as follows You start standing, 1 50m target exposure - go prone unsupported - now engage 9 remaining exposures -move to barricade and assume prone supported position, and change mags- 10 exposures -assumed kneeling supported position behind barricade , change mags- 10 exposure -assume standing supported position behind barricade, change mags- 10 exposures all on your own with no stopping, no alibis etc. Yeah man, I shot it last week. It's a much better qualification than it's predecessor. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 3:16:27 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: I had some kids fresh back from basic training and was doing some PMI. I was surprised that a few of them were still being taught (yelled at) that having your magazine resting on the ground is unacceptable and will induce malfunctions. TC 3-22.9 clearly states the exact ..... It's largely because EST2000 sim guns don't/didn't (2 of the 3 at FLW I know would work in 2017ish, the one at Benning in 09 didn't) combine that initial instruction of don't monopod (without any explanation of why) then send soldiers to the range using mags that are legitimately older than them (which you aren't supposed to use per TACOM when firing 855A1) that do have the hole for the mag wollered out and garbage springs and wide feed lips etc and have never been cleaned so they crud inside making more friction on the already weak mag and then those soldiers get confirmation bias that what their DS or the fat civilian at the sim told them Unfortunately just because it's in the TC doesn't mean anything, I've seen CSMs asking about rifle fundamentals as a board question still and the word doesn't even appear in the TC any more. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 4:06:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's largely because EST2000 sim guns don't/didn't (2 of the 3 at FLW I know would work in 2017ish, the one at Benning in 09 didn't) combine that initial instruction of don't monopod (without any explanation of why) then send soldiers to the range using mags that are legitimately older than them (which you aren't supposed to use per TACOM when firing 855A1) that do have the hole for the mag wollered out and garbage springs and wide feed lips etc and have never been cleaned so they crud inside making more friction on the already weak mag and then those soldiers get confirmation bias that what their DS or the fat civilian at the sim told them Unfortunately just because it's in the TC doesn't mean anything, I've seen CSMs asking about rifle fundamentals as a board question still and the word doesn't even appear in the TC any more. Here’s a AWB marked mag that I found a Marine using when I was running a contract course for them a few years ago.  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 4:33:02 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here’s a AWB marked mag that I found a Marine using when I was running a contract course for them a few years ago. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/53285/8EF35A8F-6043-4F7E-AF89-7851AB281178_jpe-2213601.JPG I make a game of looking for the oldest mag I can find any time I'm in an arms room or at a range. Last week I found an April 2003 manufactured mag in our HHC arms room. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 4:46:23 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here’s a AWB marked mag that I found a Marine using when I was running a contract course for them a few years ago. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/53285/8EF35A8F-6043-4F7E-AF89-7851AB281178_jpe-2213601.JPG Exactly this shit. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 5:00:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Can someone fill me on why having the mag on the ground in the prone makes for a shitty prone unsupported firing position? It doesn't, provided that the combo of rifle and mags you're using isn't garbage. The truth is that the U.S. military has loads of "institutional knowledge" that's bullshit, despite being in a profession where it's generally accepted that the consequence for stupidity may be death. People will hang on to some urban legend that they heard in boot camp for 20 years and teach it to everyone they meet like Chesty Puller himself reached down from Heaven and told them that it's illegal to shoot a person with a .50BMG so you need to be sure to say you were aiming at his equipment and a magazine rested on the ground will hopelessly jam an M-16. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 5:16:13 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: I had some kids fresh back from basic training and was doing some PMI. I was surprised that a few of them were still being taught (yelled at) that having your magazine resting on the ground is unacceptable and will induce malfunctions. TC 3-22.9 clearly states the exact opposite of this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/188236/Screenshot_20211218-190411_Adobe_Acrobat-2209336.jpg I also made a social media post about actually reading the material the Army puts out. I recieved a reply from a gentleman on the periphery of DEVGRU who informed me that if my mag is on the ground in the prone my firing position sucks. He didn't elaborate further so that brings me here. Can someone fill me on why having the mag on the ground in the prone makes for a shitty prone unsupported firing position? Yeah I'm with you. It's totally fine to use your mag as a monopod, and it doesn't induce malfunctions in my experience. As far as your body position, "periphery of DEVGRU" is making a pretty wide reaching statement there. Not really taking into account a bunch of factors. Surface you're shooting on, what you're wearing, etc. The dumbass annual KD range is the only place I don't do it, and that's only because the boot range nerds will yell at me. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 5:24:21 AM EDT
[#37]
Shoot your rifle however you see fit and don't worry about it.
But prone unsupported means prone unsupported, just saying. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 8:28:10 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: It doesn't, provided that the combo of rifle and mags you're using isn't garbage. The truth is that the U.S. military has loads of "institutional knowledge" that's bullshit, despite being in a profession where it's generally accepted that the consequence for stupidity may be death. People will hang on to some urban legend that they heard in boot camp for 20 years and teach it to everyone they meet like Chesty Puller himself reached down from Heaven and told them that it's illegal to shoot a person with a .50BMG so you need to be sure to say you were aiming at his equipment and a magazine rested on the ground will hopelessly jam an M-16. Amen Brother..... well said |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 10:56:31 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The last time I remember qualifying from a foxhole was about 2001. The 10 rounds kneeling came somewhere around 2006. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't think the Army has even taught digging foxholes or shooting from fighting positions since 9-11. The last time I remember qualifying from a foxhole was about 2001. The 10 rounds kneeling came somewhere around 2006. Apparently, we're going to be digging hastys and shitting in trenches in our upcoming JRTC rotation...and we're an Aviation unit... 
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Posted: 12/23/2021 11:01:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's been some confusion in this thread. The Army definition of prone unsupported means no use of external support, like sandbags or similar. The second string of fire in the Army qual is prone supported which allows soldiers to use sand bags for support. I've been using the prone mag support for years. Between the magazine and both elbows I can get a pretty stable shooting position. Not as stable as slung up in a jacket with my service rifle, but then M4 qual isn't the same as service rifle prone. For one, an M4 isn't free floated and the sling tension will introduce an inconsistent shift in POI. Second the current qualification requires fairly speedy position and mag changes which isn't conducive to being wrapped up in a sling. The only malfunction I've witnessed from doing this involved both blanks and a really old magazine. The magazine was loose enough in the mag well that when pushed from the front it would pivot and cause the wide nose of the blanks to get hung up on the flat below the feed ramp. The temporary solution was to apply a forward pressure on the mag to help tilt the blanks the correct direction to aid feeding. I don't believe this would have been an issue with live ammo, nor with a serviceable magazine. I have seen some soldiers struggle to get into a good shooting position with the mag dug in. Its usually caused by a few smaller issues stacking together. IOTVs with plates and mags are pretty thick which puts their torso higher. The IOTV also greatly inhibits a good stock position in a shooter's shoulder. Females often have issues getting their head high enough in prone without their helmet slouching forward, its due to their hair interfering with the nape pad on the helmet's chin strap. Mag mono-podding is still taught as an option, but a good coach or instructor recognizes that it may not work well for everyone or in every situation. I am fairly round, but not Army-Fat. With my IOTV and plates, plus all the "required" pouches and bullshit we have to have on it because "mUh SoP", I generally cannot get a good position using the sandbags, or God forbid, those stupid foam blocks. The only thing that I have found that works for me is the bipod grip. It puts the sights at just the right height. Don't get me started on the new qualification with the shoddy-built "windows" that we have to shoot through. The upper window is too high, the lower window is too low. The only way for me to get a stable sight picture is to cant the rifle at an angle with one leg of the bipod resting on the lower windowsill, or one of the side cutouts, and go into a sort-of crouch. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 10:12:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shoot your rifle however you see fit and don't worry about it. But prone unsupported means prone unsupported, just saying. Could you further expound upon this in the context we're talking about? |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 1:26:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apparently, we're going to be digging hastys and shitting in trenches in our upcoming JRTC rotation...and we're an Aviation unit... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think the Army has even taught digging foxholes or shooting from fighting positions since 9-11. The last time I remember qualifying from a foxhole was about 2001. The 10 rounds kneeling came somewhere around 2006. Apparently, we're going to be digging hastys and shitting in trenches in our upcoming JRTC rotation...and we're an Aviation unit... Good, thats the way it was, and the way it is intended. 
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:18:48 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could you further expound upon this in the context we're talking about? If I may offer my take on his statement. Prone unsupported means the gun should be supported only by the human body and no other means. Using the magazine as an additional support means it is actually a supported prone position. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:29:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree that using the magazine as a support won't cause malfunctions. I won't do it and I will advise anyone who asks against it. That’s a myth. You learned it during boot camp qualification because it was against the competition style rules. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:31:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What scenario exists that I can shoot prone unsupported but I cannot shoot prone supported?  Attached FileI've wondered this same question for years. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:31:31 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:31:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Iirc- Appleseed teaches that using the mag as a support just creates another point of contact that can throw off a shot. If they teach it, they’re wrong. With the exception of the barrel, more contact is more stable, and this more accurate. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:49:36 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Supporting with a magazine can cause malfunctions by pushing the mag too far up into the chamber. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:51:08 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn't resting the mag on the ground make it supported? |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:55:07 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Supporting with a magazine can cause malfunctions by pushing the mag too far up into the chamber. F course this depends on the rifle and the magazine. You may be able to get away with it. But then again maybe not. You can also get a bounce similar to resting directly on any other hard surface. I’ve never seen that magazine issue. I suspect it almost always happens in basement-built rifles assembled by a guy who regularly uses the phrase “just as good as,” after nothing more than a YouTube tutorial. Pretty much the same as brass over bolt stoppages. With over 30 years of mostly reserve military service (4 active 0312, all of it carrying various types of rifles) and 15 years carrying patrol rifles as a full time cop, and working as an instructor, I haven’t seen either of those, or impact shift with resting anything other than the barrel against an object. Bounce is an actual thing, but just tend to slow down target acquisition on follow up shots. It happens a lot shooting with a bipod on cement, for example. |
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