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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:57:55 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am more stable with proper sling tension, support hand placement, and firing elbow angle than getting lower and placing my mag on the ground. I guess if I could get into a good position with a mag long enough to touch the ground then it would help, but you can form a better position while being higher than normal mags allow The biggest issue is the time consumption of slinging up with some form of a loop sling. It works fine on a static range that has prep time before each string of fire, but magazine monopod is more practical in the real world. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:58:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sling up a service M4 and tell me how well it shoots. Barrel flex is a thing. Very true, I’ve seen and experienced this. ETA: For those not in the military, the standard M16 and M4 series do not have free floated barrels, even if they have a rail system. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 2:58:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The military still teaches how to shoot a rifle? Yes, but it's not that kind of rifle anymore. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 3:02:05 PM EDT
[#4]
I am sure this is covered somewhere in the thread, but I remember the emphasis being on not damaging the mag catch or jamming mud and gravel into the weep hole.
Otherwise it’s absolutely fine. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 3:40:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Always had the mag on the ground...that's what we were taught by the good shooters. Support in front of the mag well and free float the barrel. At 600m it matters.
Somebody would always tell us we were doing it wrong...but then we would out shoot them. Probably 20k rounds in competition and practice over six years. Never had a malfunction. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:21:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve never seen that magazine issue. I suspect it almost always happens in basement-built rifles assembled by a guy who regularly uses the phrase “just as good as,” after nothing more than a YouTube tutorial. Pretty much the same as brass over bolt stoppages. With over 30 years of mostly reserve military service (4 active 0312, all of it carrying various types of rifles) and 15 years carrying patrol rifles as a full time cop, and working as an instructor, I haven’t seen either of those, or impact shift with resting anything other than the barrel against an object. Bounce is an actual thing, but just tend to slow down target acquisition on follow up shots. It happens a lot shooting with a bipod on cement, for example. First in the wild bolt over base malf I saw was with a M4 shooting 855. Made a great learning opportunity since none of the active duty guys knew what to do |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:27:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First in the wild bolt over base malf I saw with a M4 shooting 855. Made a great learning opportunity since none of the active duty guys knew wear to do Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’ve never seen that magazine issue. I suspect it almost always happens in basement-built rifles assembled by a guy who regularly uses the phrase “just as good as,” after nothing more than a YouTube tutorial. Pretty much the same as brass over bolt stoppages. With over 30 years of mostly reserve military service (4 active 0312, all of it carrying various types of rifles) and 15 years carrying patrol rifles as a full time cop, and working as an instructor, I haven’t seen either of those, or impact shift with resting anything other than the barrel against an object. Bounce is an actual thing, but just tend to slow down target acquisition on follow up shots. It happens a lot shooting with a bipod on cement, for example. First in the wild bolt over base malf I saw with a M4 shooting 855. Made a great learning opportunity since none of the active duty guys knew wear to do And I'll never forget the first time Pat Rogers taught me to clear that malfunction. It was a Light bulb moment. The Army sure as shit never taught us. Too many guys take too much stock in what the services taught us and how some of it was just plain wrong. SPORTS comes to mind, not mono-podding the mag was another, and who can forget the infamous, "You can't shoot .50 Cal at personnel, only equipment, so aim for the web belt" |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:29:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Explain to the class how that works??? When the magazine is held in place by the magazine catch... I'll wait... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Supporting with a magazine can cause malfunctions by pushing the mag too far up into the chamber. F course this depends on the rifle and the magazine. You may be able to get away with it. But then again maybe not. You can also get a bounce similar to resting directly on any other hard surface. Explain to the class how that works??? When the magazine is held in place by the magazine catch... I'll wait... @YankeeDog357 still waiting for your answer |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:32:04 PM EDT
[#9]
I was always taught not to apply pressure to the bottom of the magazine while shooting.
Most of the time it won’t be an issue, but the possibility of a malfunction can still happen. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:32:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First in the wild bolt over base malf I saw with a M4 shooting 855. Made a great learning opportunity since none of the active duty guys knew wear to do That’s the only bolt over brass story I’ve heard with a military or LE issued weapon. Every other one has involved an amateur assembled cheap franken gun. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:33:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s a myth. You learned it during boot camp qualification because it was against the competition style rules. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I disagree that using the magazine as a support won't cause malfunctions. I won't do it and I will advise anyone who asks against it. That’s a myth. You learned it during boot camp qualification because it was against the competition style rules. Who thought a Poster with the username 1DevilDog was going to go against the Marine Corps training...  Never stop learning, the Marine Corps, like the Army, taught some good stuff, and also some bad... And as the Marine Corps was always proud of their "Hand me down gear, Make do" mantra, which is where I suspect a lot of that shit came from... training everyone to value an expendable item like a magazine as if it were a pair of NVGs. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:38:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I'll never forget the first time Pat Rogers taught me to clear that malfunction. It was a Light bulb moment. The Army sure as shit never taught us. Too many guys take too much stock in what the services taught us and how some of it was just plain wrong. SPORTS comes to mind, not mono-podding the mag was another, and who can forget the infamous, "You can't shoot .50 Cal at personnel, only equipment, so aim for the web belt" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I’ve never seen that magazine issue. I suspect it almost always happens in basement-built rifles assembled by a guy who regularly uses the phrase “just as good as,” after nothing more than a YouTube tutorial. Pretty much the same as brass over bolt stoppages. With over 30 years of mostly reserve military service (4 active 0312, all of it carrying various types of rifles) and 15 years carrying patrol rifles as a full time cop, and working as an instructor, I haven’t seen either of those, or impact shift with resting anything other than the barrel against an object. Bounce is an actual thing, but just tend to slow down target acquisition on follow up shots. It happens a lot shooting with a bipod on cement, for example. First in the wild bolt over base malf I saw with a M4 shooting 855. Made a great learning opportunity since none of the active duty guys knew wear to do And I'll never forget the first time Pat Rogers taught me to clear that malfunction. It was a Light bulb moment. The Army sure as shit never taught us. Too many guys take too much stock in what the services taught us and how some of it was just plain wrong. SPORTS comes to mind, not mono-podding the mag was another, and who can forget the infamous, "You can't shoot .50 Cal at personnel, only equipment, so aim for the web belt" I think it depends on which era you served in, your unit, MOS, etc. The shooting skills programs taught during GWOT and today is pretty modernized. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:55:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who thought a Poster with the username 1DevilDog was going to go against the Marine Corps training... Never stop learning, the Marine Corps, like the Army, taught some good stuff, and also some bad... And as the Marine Corps was always proud of their "Hand me down gear, Make do" mantra, which is where I suspect a lot of that shit came from... training everyone to value an expendable item like a magazine as if it were a pair of NVGs. I was an 0311. I know a lot of Marines take every bullshit thing they hear in boot camp as fact, and repeat it. In about 2006, I had a young Marine tell me the M16A2 he carried in boot camp had been used in Vietnam. “Hand-me-down gear” is a myth. Marines have not gotten cast off Army gear since at least before WWII, and it probably was very rare before that. It’s just more repeated bs. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:03:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was an 0311. I know a lot of Marines take every bullshit thing they hear in boot camp as fact, and repeat it. In about 2006, I had a young Marine tell me the M16A2 he carried in boot camp had been used in Vietnam. “Hand-me-down gear” is a myth. Marines have not gotten cast off Army gear since at least before WWII, and it probably was very rare before that. It’s just more repeated bs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Who thought a Poster with the username 1DevilDog was going to go against the Marine Corps training... Never stop learning, the Marine Corps, like the Army, taught some good stuff, and also some bad... And as the Marine Corps was always proud of their "Hand me down gear, Make do" mantra, which is where I suspect a lot of that shit came from... training everyone to value an expendable item like a magazine as if it were a pair of NVGs. I was an 0311. I know a lot of Marines take every bullshit thing they hear in boot camp as fact, and repeat it. In about 2006, I had a young Marine tell me the M16A2 he carried in boot camp had been used in Vietnam. “Hand-me-down gear” is a myth. Marines have not gotten cast off Army gear since at least before WWII, and it probably was very rare before that. It’s just more repeated bs. The USMC actually has some pretty good quality gear. The packs and body armor was actually superior to the Army counterparts, at the time. I actually liked the MTVs. There is also a lot of stupid shit they teach. Like “one whole MRE is meant to last you an entire day.” it’s not as if the calories aren’t listed right there on the box. But I will say that most of the shooting skills you learn as an 0311 are quite good if you know how to apply the lessons well. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:11:05 PM EDT
[#15]
I was told mag on the ground. 39 out of 40.
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:20:49 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember the no mag on ground lecture in 1996. I have been shooting my rifles with the mag on the ground as an improvised monopod and it does not induce malfunctions and increases stability so I can ring steel out to 400+ yards. Another Big Army WTF! I remember that from 97, but I also remember all the old fucked up black follower mags we had both in basic and in units before the GWOT basically made everyone turn in/give away to Joe all the old shitty mags for new ones. New mags and low and behold malfunctions go down. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:28:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is GD. Nobody shoots or owns guns here.  this is prone unsupported. me getting my first expert 39/40  |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:40:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was an 0311. I know a lot of Marines take every bullshit thing they hear in boot camp as fact, and repeat it. In about 2006, I had a young Marine tell me the M16A2 he carried in boot camp had been used in Vietnam. “Hand-me-down gear” is a myth. Marines have not gotten cast off Army gear since at least before WWII, and it probably was very rare before that. It’s just more repeated bs. 's Quote HistoryQuoted: I was an 0311. I know a lot of Marines take every bullshit thing they hear in boot camp as fact, and repeat it. In about 2006, I had a young Marine tell me the M16A2 he carried in boot camp had been used in Vietnam. “Hand-me-down gear” is a myth. Marines have not gotten cast off Army gear since at least before WWII, and it probably was very rare before that. It’s just more repeated bs. 's Quoted: I was an 0311. I know a lot of Marines take every bullshit thing they hear in boot camp as fact, and repeat it. In about 2006, I had a young Marine tell me the M16A2 he carried in boot camp had been used in Vietnam. “Hand-me-down gear” is a myth. Marines have not gotten cast off Army gear since at least before WWII, and it probably was very rare before that. It’s just more repeated bs. The GWOT certainly improved the gear, but the 80's & 90's era Marines I knew would tell you that they got a lot of old beat up shit. So, it is not a myth. It's just not something you experienced. Hell, the Marines were deployed in M60 A1 MBT's in the 91 gulf war when the Army had M1A1's.... |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:41:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: I was always taught not to apply pressure to the bottom of the magazine while shooting. Most of the time it won’t be an issue, but the possibility of a malfunction can still happen. And just how does that happen?? |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:52:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And just how does that happen?? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was always taught not to apply pressure to the bottom of the magazine while shooting. Most of the time it won’t be an issue, but the possibility of a malfunction can still happen. And just how does that happen?? It’s never happened to me. And it probably won’t happen unless you are using shitty stanag magazines. But that’s just the philosophy behind the training. “prudent to avoid putting pressure on the magazine, but no one is going to stop you if you do.“ Our magazines dug into the ground quite frequently from the prone, and it never really caused any problems. I would be more concerned about dirt and the ingress of debris into the mags, or bending the feed lips. I prefer using 20 round magazines when shooting from the low prone just because it makes it easier. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 7:27:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s the only bolt over brass story I’ve heard with a military or LE issued weapon. Every other one has involved an amateur assembled cheap franken gun. That malf is pretty rare in my experience. I never saw one on active duty and have only seen 5-6 since I started teaching in the private sector. For the M4, I wasn’t really surprised as we were battling issues with a lot of ammo that had been dropped off. I don’t know which corner of the ASP they pulled this stuff from but it literally had grass growing in the crate |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 9:18:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The GWOT certainly improved the gear, but the 80's & 90's era Marines I knew would tell you that they got a lot of old beat up shit. So, it is not a myth. It's just not something you experienced. Hell, the Marines were deployed in M60 A1 MBT's in the 91 gulf war when the Army had M1A1's.... There’s a huge difference between hand me down gear from the Army (myth) , and gear purchased by the Marune Corps that was heavily used. I heard the myths, and carried the gear. Active in a rifle platoon 86-90, reserve in a STA platoon 91-95. I also saw Army gear carried by my counterparts at the same time, and was Army NG 11B after I got out of the USMC. Marines getting hand me down gear from the Army, meaning the Army got rid of it because it was worn out or replaced with newer versions, is a myth. You mentioned tanks in Desert Storm. If I recall correctly, the Army had more tanks than tankers sent to Saudi, and loaned some brand new M1 tanks to the Corps. I’ve also read that since the Corps got rid of tanks, tha Army will take those, along with USMC tankers that want to remain tankers. |
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