Post from WaWaTuSi -

Hell would be believing that you need to believe in a certain doctrine in order to have "moral character".

I simply don't think anyone can have a good moral character outside of Christianity.

Period.

For many reasons.

As an example, I believe that a good moral character undoubtedly requires seeing that every evil in this world is opposed and any human suffering is ameliorated to the greatest degree possible.

And to do so properly and effectively requires concerted action.

And the only group of folks on this planet who are actively feeding the poor and taking care of the helpless are Christians, by and large, or from Christian nations.

It would seem to be weakness that you need to believe that there is some outside judge judging your deeds to 'do the right thing'.

I expect  to be judged according to His Word.

Why should  I escape judgment?

The Judge is within!

If you mean God the Father, then yes, He is within all true Believers.

And He will judge us righteously in that Great Day, according to His Word.

If you mean someone else then you are simply mistaken.

If you mean yourself, then you are approaching mental illness.

But you are correct we needn't worry at all.....

Some of us more than others, I would think.

BTW, you appear to have gotten a handle on the Board Code in your last exchanges with JohnWayne777.

Reckon you will ever reform those previous posts of yours for suitable rebuttal?

Also, when do you guess that Mithraism, as its own religion, began? What date, approximately?

And was it an actual offshoot of Zororastrianism, or not?

Answer these questions and we will have much to discuss.

If you can manage to continue to handle Board Code correctly!



Eric The(Inquisitive)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: I simply don't think anyone can have a good moral character outside of Christianity. Period. For many reasons. ... Eric The(Inquisitive)Hun Is there any cult that has more harm to humanity under the guise of 'goodness',and 'moral surperiorty????

First, Christianity is not a cult by any acceptable definition of that word.

Second, nothing in Christianity has been harmful to humanity.

It has been the very best gift that the Heavenly Father ever gave His children.

Whether they believed in His Son, or not.

Like the inquisition?????

Where do you find the instructions for an inquisition in the New Testament?

What did Jesus Christ say about the rack, the wheel, or the dungeon, in the Gospels?

Nothing. Nothing at all. All He brought was the Peace that Passeth All Understanding.

You want crimes against humanity?

Then look at what the absence of Christianity has caused just in the last Century.

....or was that just a poor choic of words????

I never choose my words poorly.

All in all, the Spanish Inquistion may be rightly criticized by today's standards, but by those of the times in which it occurred, they were the most liberal criminal prosecutors around.

Read my statement above about preferring to be tried by Toquemada himself, rather than any civil Spanish judge in 1600 AD!

...you people simply astound me some times.

Then you must be too easily astonished!

Eric The(Believing)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: I simply don't think anyone can have a good moral character outside of Christianity. Period. Eric The(Inquisitive)Hun Wow That tells you just about all you need to know.

Doesn't it though!

At least, that's been my experience.

'But if he does really think that there is no distinction between virtue and vice, why, Sir, when he leaves our houses, let us count our spoons.' ~ Samuel Johnson

Eric The(TellingItLikeItIs)Hun

Post from Only_Hits_Count -

There are none so blibd, as those who will not see.

I've been on both sides of this argument at different times in my life.

There's nothing that you think you can see that I haven't thought that I saw at one time, as well.

We were both blind. I stopped. You continue.

Sooooooo  y'alls' arguement seems to cons " I know the bible is true---'cause it sez so in the bible...

Nope.

If that's what you think we must think, then you are horribly misled.

this game gets old very quickly.

Then go find a good game of checkers or something to satisfy yourself however you wish.

Eric The(Fundamental)Hun

Post from WaWaTuSi -

Why does one have to believe in YOUR version of God to be of good moral character.

Nonsense!

It is not MY version of God, but the accepted view of God that has guided Western Civilization for almost 2,000 years.

And that has been the accepted view of Western man, and it remains my view, as well.

It is a rather small minded world view.

In your limited opinion, it may be.

That doesn't keep one third of the planet from thinking the same way as I do.

But even if it were true would it not be sad that in order for you to do these good works you would have to believe in an outside force (not an inside force) that would compell you to do such things?

Not sad, at all.

Just the way human beings always have been and will always be, in the absence of God the Father.

Its funny..... If I help the poor, Volunteer at charities, give speaches on doing the right things, teach my childeren of right from wrong, liberty, and tolerance for others beliefs I still have no moral character because I believe differently than you?

If you do not believe in Jesus, then not one damn thing you mentioned would be of any moment in the next world.

And by not teaching Jesus to your children, you are possibly sentencing them to an Eternity in Hell. Period.

Some father!

But you do as you wish, for none can come to the Father unless they are called. And you say you are not.

I believe you.

What darkness is in your heart that you need an outside being to make you do the right thing?

There is no darkness in my heart...any longer.

I cannot speak for your heart. That is between you and the Father.

Judge not lest ye be judged? Kinda like your judging those with different beliefs as lacking morals? sad....

I'm judging no one.

I simply stated my beliefs.

Did that hurt you? I'm sorry, but I won't change a word of it.

Your still on that? Perhaps you should see a specialist who can help you with your OCD my friend. It is clear you had no answers for my previous posts and your attempt to bring this up yet again is a testament to the fact that you wish to mitigate the damage you caused to yourself through that childish banter you engaged in with me... If you have a comment on something I said then comment on it. Otherwise move on.

Think again, buddy!

I will not do your work for you. And the fact that you 'appear' to be able to handle the Board Code properly at some times, and not at others, makes me think you don't wish to read my answers!

And I will mention that fact every chance I get! Thanks for another opportunity!

"Mithraism apparently originated in the Eastern Mediterranean around the first or second centuries BC. It was practiced in the Roman Empire since the first century BC, and reached its apogee around the third through fourth centuries AD, when it was very popular among the Roman soldiers. Mithraism disappeared from overt practice after the Theodosian decree of 391 AD banned all pagan rites, and apparently became extinct shortly thereafter"

Well, you missed cutting and pasting that part of the definition which included:

"Mithraism is best documented in the form it had acquired in the later Roman Empire. It was an initiatory 'mystery religion,' passed from initiate to initiate, like the Eleusinian Mysteries. It was not based on a supernaturally revealed body of scripture, and hence very little written documentatory evidence survives."

We have no idea what Mithraism actually believed or didn't believe BUT that didn't stop you from alleging the following:

Mithras. In some ways the life and deeds of Mithras come across almost as a precurser to that of Jesus: he was born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, there was a `last supper', was (self) sacrificed, and returned from the dead.

We have no idea when these alleged beliefs of Mithraism began, do we?

I say that whatever we know of Mithraism came directly from Roman historians, who only knew and wrote of Mithraism after the First Century AD.

Whatever beliefs the Mithra cult may have had could just as easily been adopted from Christianity.

But even if they weren't, that doesn't call into question our Christian beliefs.

For all of the prophecies concerning the Christ were written well before 700 BC, and therefore antedate any 'pollution' by Mithraism.

Eric The(Historical)Hun

Post from WaWaTuSi -

And you bitch and wine about MY formatting!

Check again, Sonny!

I clean up my mistakes as quickly as I find them.

Luckily they are few and far between.

Unlike others'!

Glass houses and stones come to mind!

Yeah?

So you've cleaned up yours, I suppose?

No?

Why am I NOT surprised?

Eric The(Unpeturbed)Hun

Let's talk about Mithra being 'almost a precursor' of Jesus!

Wa-Wa-Wa-Tu-Si!



Eric The(Eager)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: It is not MY version of God, but the accepted view of God that has guided Western Civilization for almost 2,000 years. And that has been the accepted view of Western man, and it remains my view, as well. So you believe that myself, OHC, and Novagator have no moral Character? Simply because our beliefs are not neccesarrially yours?

I have no earthly idea about your respective moral characters!

Whether or not your beliefs are the same as mine, doesn't mean that you are not a Christian, just that your beliefs and mine are not the same.

Nothing more, nothing less.

The more, however, that you discuss this subject, the more I think that your beliefs widely diverge from simple Christianity, and that is not my problem, but yours.

Attend to it.

Originally posted from Eric The Hun: In your limited opinion, it may be. That doesn't keep one third of the planet from thinking the same way as I do.

My limited opinion? You believe that those who do not share your exact beliefs have no moral character. Whos opinion is limited?

I have yet to find anyone who says that they do not believe in Jesus Christ who has a good moral character.

And what of the other 2/3rds?

I have no earthly idea about the state of their individual moral characters, at all, but what I can see from their societies and their cultures, there is nothing that compels me believe that they have any.

Not applicable to my statment. I say it is sad that without your God you would turn into an a-moral character.

Amoral, you mean?

Without God there is no possibility of morality. At least to the level that Jesus Christ taught us.

You can say that generally the Romans treated their women more fairly than the Greeks treated theirs, but they both fell widely short of that which would characterize good morals.  

I say it is sad that you think you need an external factor to maintain your moral character. I have no Idea what your response here addresses because it surely does not address my point.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Period.

And I believe, as Dostoyevski, that 'If there is no God, then all things are lawful. If there is no God, then I am God', which surely cannot be.

Originally posted by Eric The Hun: If you do not believe in Jesus, then not one damn thing you mentioned would be of any moment in the next world. And by not teaching Jesus to your children, you are possibly sentencing them to an Eternity in Hell. Period.

So are you saying moral character=belief in your God?

Precisely.

And He is not simply 'my' God, He is everyone's God, whether they know it, or not.

Your logic seems very disjointed at best.

How does logic enter into this, at all?

How does logic even touch upon the issue of morality?

Originally posted by Eric The Hun: Some father!

Judging me again?

I'm not judging you in the least. I am making a statement of my belief that if a father does NOT teach his children about God, he is NOT much of a father at all.

So, you are NOT teaching your children about God?

That is certainly your decision.

Hopefully, some missionary some day will teach them about God.

You should follow your own doctrine.

I have no doctrine in such matters.

You seem so adaept at judging people, insulting people and attacking people.

Nonsense.

I merely tell you my beliefs, and then explain my beliefs, when you ask for explanations.

If you think you are 'judged', 'insulted', 'attacked', whatever, that is NOT my intention, but I am NOT going to alter my beliefs to make you 'feel' better about whatever it is you may believe....or disbelieve.

Hardly Christian behavior brother.

Somone else will judge my behavior, Whose judgment I fear, but Whose judgment will be righteous.

I needn't worry about what you may think about it.

Originally posted by Eric The Hun: But you do as you wish, for none can come to the Father unless they are called. And you say you are not. I believe you.

Oh the calling is there but its not an external calling....

I have no earthly idea how Mithra calls its disciples, but then again, I'm really not interested.

Originally posted by Eric The Hun: There is no darkness in my heart...any longer. I cannot speak for your heart. That is between you and the Father.

Well thats wonderful then brother, perhaps you can shine that light here instead of calling people who differ in beliefs from you as a-moral, psycholocially disturbed, and poor parents.

When I listen to the explanations and the discussions of some here, I am afraid that no amount of light from anything I could possibly provide would bring any amount of light to...some.

Again such behavior is unbecoming of what a Christian should be.

And, again, that is NOT for you to decide, now, is it?

Sorry.

Posted by Eric The Hun: I'm judging no one. I simply stated my beliefs. Did that hurt you? I'm sorry, but I won't change a word of it.

Sure your just labeling people as imorral, psycholocically disturbed... Thats not judging anyone, naahhhh.....

The struck dog is the one who barks.

Sorry, if that hurt.

They have meds for that OCD brother.

Not necessary!

But they have an icon for an explanation of Board Code!

Try it sometimes.

Yet you glance right over Zorastianism which factually influences both Christianity as does the whole Mithra thing.

Nonsense.

If anything, it was Judaism that influenced Zorastrianism and not the other way around.

But then you are not a believer, anyway, so who cares what you think.

But that is to be expected from a "fundamentalist" such as yourself.

Yes, I am not easily influenced by such crap that I put away as childish when I was in Junior High!

"Roman Mithras was perhaps the greatest rival to early Christianity for many reasons. As well as being a popular pagan religion practised by the Roman Army, Mithraism had many similarities to Christianity. Mithras was born of a virgin, remained celibate, his worship involving baptism, the partaking of bread marked with a cross and wine as sacrificial blood, held Sundays sacred and Mithras was born on 25th of December. Mithraist called themselves 'brother' and were led by a priest called 'father' (Pater). The symbol of the father were a staff, a hooked sword, a ring and hat."

Interesting....as a sidelight.

And nothing more.

What was the significance of 'baptism' in Mithraism'?

We have no idea, but we know precisely what that rite referred to in Christianity!

What was the significance of the 'bread and wine' in Mithraism?

Again, we have no idea, but we know precisely what those items referred to in Christianity.

Sounds like this upstart 'new' religion in the Western part of the Roman Empire (it was unknown, incredibly, in the East) Mithraism was 'borrowing' quite heavily from mature Christianity, indeed!

And this upstart religion came and went without much impact on anything in the Western World.

Yet you give it equal credibility with Christianity!

Tsk, tsk, tsk. What a shame it disappeared so thoroughly!

Maybe some new age folks will resurrect it some day!

Ooops! 'Resurrect' is one of OUR words!

"These similarities frightened the early Christian leaders - that almost 500 years before arrival of Christ all of the Christian mysteries were already known. To combat this, Christian witters said that the Devil knew of the coming of Christ in advance and had imitated them before they existed in order to denigrate them. As Christianity gained strength and became the formal religion of the Roman Empire, the 'Cult of Mithras' was one of the first pagan cults to come under attack in the fifth century; Temples of Mithras, like most other pagan Temples, were destroyed and Churches build on them."

So YOU believe, along with the writer you quoted above from 'OkarResearch' on angelfire, that Mithraism existed full blown as a religion on its own in at least 500 BC?

Can we find your source for such an astounding statement of fact?

Or maybe you can e-mail the writer of that piece and find out what source he used for that statement?

But it is incredible.

Like fish in a barrell....

Finding incredible quotes on angelfire to support your argument?

Sure.

But find us all a credible source that says the very same thing.

What you can determine about Mithraism is that 'we don't know much about it, at all.'

'Like shooting silly fish in a barrel!'

Eric The(NotEasilyFooled)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: Let's talk about Mithra being 'almost a precursor' of Jesus! Wa-Wa-Wa-Tu-Si! Eric The(Eager)Hun Isn't Mithra an accepted God of the Masons?

Nope. At least not among the Masons here in the United States.

I don't know anything about the Masons overseas.

But Freemasonry is not a religion, anyway.

You might wish to research it a bit before making such a stupid statement...well, no...that would be out of character!

Aren't YOU a Mason?

Indeed, I am.

I serve as the Chaplain for some of the Lodges hereabouts.

Want to hear one of my prayers?

Then get to be a Master Mason and come hear them!

Though shalt have no other God before whom? hmm......

Sorry, but although the Masonic Lodge is bedecked with Judeo-Christian symbolism and the Holy Bible is the Great Light of Masonry...it is not a church. It is not a synagogue.

It is a fraternity.

And my Masonic brothers, as I, worship only the True God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Sorry to disabuse you of yet another of your shining examples of ignorance!

But someone has to do it.

Eric The(Fundamental)Hun

Quoted: Originally posted by Eric The Hun: I have yet to find anyone who says that they do not believe in Jesus Christ who has a good moral character. Look harder. I dont think your trying hard enough

If it's that difficult, I rest my case.

Eric The(SecularHumanismSucks)Hun

Quoted: "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."  -Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President

"Lincoln is dead." - God, Our Heavenly Father

Eric The(Wiseacre)Hun

Quoted: So is Jesus Christ

Dead, you mean?

Oh, I think not.

Eric The(Nope.SimpleAsThat)Hun

Quoted: Look I take everything back. I just dont like your elitist statement about moral character.

Sorry, friend, but you don't know me well enough to make such a statement.

I'm likely to be a greater sinner than you ever hoped to be.

But I am under no delusions that Jesus accepts me for being a sinner and continuing to sin, so you won't hear me blabbering about how I am 'saved.'

Because I'm not!

And if I ever am, it's because I'm dead and I died in Christ, with His Forgiveness of all my sins.

I dont know much about fre masonary but i think being a bigot goes against the meaning of free masonary

Masons who know me are cool with me.

They made me a Chaplain, did they not?

I think they know me better than y'all.

Ask the all-Black Missionary Baptist Church where I am the Associate Pastor IF they think that I'm a bigot?

Prepare to get the big smack down!

Sorry, but you don't really know me at all, do you?

Eric The(MasterOfNone,ServantOfAll)Hun

Quoted: Originally posted by Eric The Hun: I have yet to find anyone who says that they do not believe in Jesus Christ who has a good moral character. That is a bigoted statement Main Entry: big·ot Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

No, dear Sir, it is most assuredly NOT!

It is a statement of fact, pure and simple.

For your continued education, allow me to alter what I said to make it into a statement evidencing bigotry on my part:

'I believe that no one who does not believe in Jesus Christ can have a good moral character.'

See the difference? Hopefully?

Eric The(Kids!WhatCanYouDoWithThem?)Hun

Quoted: NO

Then you just need to take a little more time than you obviously given it to think over this matter more carefully.

That's all! I have faith that you will come to the correct answer.

And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God." [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

Well, it's been almost 35 years since I last read Mein Kampf, so I will have to rely on your quotation of something that this atheist bastard said about Jesus in his ludicrous book.

And that statement reflects badly on Christianity in some manner, or upon Jesus?

Is that what you think? If so, please explain how it does.

If not, why did you quote it here, in this discussion?

Hmmmm?

Eric The(WillingToGiveYouTheBenefitOfTheDoubt)Hun

Quoted: Im juxtaposing Lincoln who freed the slaves <-----Atheist With Adolph Hitler who killed 6 million jews<------ Christian

What a bizarre comparison to make!

Did you run that past anyone else before you posted it?

You should have!

So, Abraham Lincoln was, in fact, an atheist and Adoplh Hitler was a Christian?

Is that what you are saying?

If it is, I take back what I said earlier about you being able to 'get it' if you thought long and hard about what I said.

I don't think you will 'get it.'

Ever.

Making this statement is rather prejudicial Originally posted by Eric The Hun: I have yet to find anyone who says that they do not believe in Jesus Christ who has a good moral character. And goes against the tenets of free masonary

Again, it's a statement of fact, pure and simple and you cannot disprove it, can you?

There is no way on God's green earth that you can prove that I have ever met anyone who (1) does not believe in Jesus Christ, and (2) yet has a good moral character, is there?

Yet, IF it were a prejudicial statement, it should be an open and shut case to disprove it.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Maybe you should go to bed and get some sleep. I think your mental faculties are fast becoming exhausted.

Prejudice is inexcusable and irreconcilable with Masonry, but then, it is also irreconcilable with Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and there are certainly Christians, Jews, and Muslims who harbor prejudices.

Uh-huh.

Yep.

That's what that Mason FAQ website said, all right. I read it.

And that's germane to this conversation because.......

Eric The(FillInTheBlank)Hun

Quoted: Maybe you pass judgement on people who are non christians as being immoral without looking at the acts they have accomplished.

I pass judgment on no one, as I've said countless times before.

What they believe is another matter altogether. What they say is likewise another matter altogether.

Is it possible a person can be a good provider to his family, upright citizen in his community and an asset to the world with out a belief in jesus christ?

Is it possible?

I assume that it could be.

Have I ever found anyone that meets that description? Nope. Never. Ever.

Your statement says either you dont get out much or you have already decided unbelievers are of poor moral character.

Let's see, practicing law full bore, pedal to the metal, for more than 25 years, has brought me into very direct contact with, conservatvely speaking, say 10,000 folks over the years.

Being an FFL dealer for more than 10 years and setting up tables at every gun show in the State of Texas for that length of time, let's say, I've had dealings with an additional 2,500 folks.

I'd say that I've likely met more people and had extended discussions with more people regarding such matters as faith, belief, and character, in the last 5 years than you've had in your entire life.

Correct me if you think I'm wrong!

So, I think it's very safe to say that I 'get out' quite a bit.

And I haven't decided that 'unbelivers' cannot be men or women of good character, it's just that I've never found any who were.

And I talk about this with almost every person I meet. One way or the other.

Rather dogmatic and closed minded

Not at all.

But if that falsehood makes you feel all warm and comfy this evening, run with it!

Eric The(TellingItLikeItIs,Unfortunately)Hun